Why does GT5P punish the rough drivers unlike other racing sims?

[Leprekaun]

Hi all! Something that I found interesting about GT5P is that it seems to punish rough drivers. Before playing GT5P, I wouldn't really be too bothered if the car would skid a little coming out of a corner and I've always been quite fast in other sims I've raced in but GT5P seems to punish me for it. Over time, GT5P forced me to become a smooth driver and I've almost gone 180 degrees from where I used to be. I know that smoothness is the aim with driving but the fact that I can be a little rough in other sims and still be quick makes me doubt the realism of GT5P. Its been proven in F1 that both rough and smooth drivers can be of similar speed (Senna / Prost, Villeneuve / Schumacher) so this is also another reason why I'm doubting GT5P's realism. I still see it as the most realistic sim I've played in terms of feel, although, it must be said that iRacing is excellent as well but this is something that has been puzzling me for the last while. So can anyone explain why this is?

 

[DYE_STICKY]

Hey what you have to get is that the other game will never be the same as GT and GT will never be them, as for you going faster in them, its because they are not true simulators they do not go to the track and collect data to feed into the game. The thing you said about smooth and rough drivers is correct the reason you are accomplishing faster time in the other games is because they are maid poorly, so that being said dont dought gt, dought the other games who's developers put but a fraction of its time into making there so called sims.

 

[mef]

ts been proven in F1 that both rough and smooth drivers can be of similar speed (Senna / Prost, Villeneuve / Schumacher)

Senna and Schumacher are the greatest drivers of all time but you can hardly call the other drivers you mentioned 'rough'. It has also been proved that smooth driving wins races, not rough.

Smooth driving always wins because the traction limit can be maintained throughout the whole lap, so you're always getting 100% out of the car. If you also stay on the ideal line, this will produce the best time.

If GT5P replicates this I wouldn't call it punish you, it's how it should be, a true simulation. Try GT5TT by the way, it's way more 'punishing'.

 

[Rykon Zero]

Hey what you have to get is that the other game will never be the same as GT and GT will never be them, as for you going faster in them, its because they are not true simulators they do not go to the track and collect data to feed into the game. The thing you said about smooth and rough drivers is correct the reason you are accomplishing faster time in the other games is because they are maid poorly, so that being said dont dought gt, dought the other games who's developers put but a fraction of its time into making there so called sims.

I'm a GT fan to the core, and I'm going to say right here that you don't know what he's talking about. I'm not sure about iRacing, but rFactor and LFS are both more realistic than GT.

 

[Ardius]

Aggressive driving can work in GT, but you need your car setup for it. The thing with aggressive driving is that you have to be prepared to make far more corrections and generally fight the car. You can't just expect to throw the car into a corner without it biting back.

So I'm assuming here that maybe you are expecting too much of the cars you're driving and are not used to driving a simulator? Without knowing your previous experience I cannot say.

But personally I feel GT is just about right when it comes to driving styles and how the car reacts. If I set the car up for oversteer and attack the corners and fight the car, I can in fact set similar or faster laptimes than if I set the car for understeer and use a smooth driving style. The reason you would tend to prefer smooth styles and a more neutral car setup is because its easier to be consistent and far less effort, though some find it easier to be consistent with a car they fight and this is where driving style and setup come into it.
But I can say I've not found smooth driving always the fastest way in GT, on the contrary, its rarely fast for me..just more consistent and easier to be fast. Some of the best laptimes I've set were with a car setup I absolutely hated, tail sliding all the time. But occasionally it can provide better cornering and faster exits, basically sometimes you don't want understeer, you want oversteer.

 

[Jump_Ace]

This depends on how you define 'rough'. If you mean why can't I do something that I've done a million times in Need For Speed Underground...then, well...you may need to get your head examined. Punishment is in place to provide a (more) level playing field its one thing to draft and opponent constantly and another to even begin touching their car. Which by my standards, ANY touch is rough driving, except for the possible Nas/ty/car section where 'rubbing' may be okay.

Jerome

 

[Ardius]

I think he's basically referring to "rough" in the sense of aggressive driving styles. E.g.:

 

[Jump_Ace]

Ah, I see. Thx for clarifying. I've driven GT as if I'm trying to find the limit in the car and I get more agressive as time goes on and I adjust to the car. But if you are too aggressive, then why not get punished? The fasty-fasts around here know the limits of the car and how to drive like it the entire time (who knows how they do it). So maybe try easing off the aggressive style a little and see if it yields better results.

Jerome

 

[mef]

If I set the car up for oversteer and attack the corners and fight the car, I can in fact set similar or faster laptimes than if I set the car for understeer and use a smooth driving style.

Yep, you need to be sliding a bit in order to go really fast. The tire dynamics work this way that they build up more grip as you reach their limit. They seem to have modeled this effect well in GT5P and GT5TT. You can see it working already by braking or acellerating. Traction will be better if you do it gradually.That's where the smooth bits comes in. If you go to the limit too fast the tires will let go..
Smooth driving is not related to driving with understeer I think, but related to how well weight transfer is controlled (any weight transfer will loose traction, so if you're smooth you're potentially going faster)
M.

 

[zed300]

The comparison you have suggested is hardly fair, F1 v Road cars.
The tyres are the only point of contact, obviously. Road cars are easily twice the weight and have less than half the grip. This leads to less than a quarter of the possible regain ofcontrol, once the level of adhesion has been lost.
The margin for error off line is probably the same in time percentage, but more obvious in the road car, so it feels more of a punishment.
I'm not sure if the comparison you are making is from one sim to another and crossing styles of car too, but it read that way to me.

 

[swistak]

I think it is true that GT makes controlling understeer way more difficult than controlling oversteer, resulting a lot of difficulties making late-braking, aggressive corner entry. I am not sure if this applies to you guys, or if it is just me, but I feel that the "character" of the game has slightly changed with consequent iterations - I had always found cars in GT3 and GT4 way too understeery to drive aggressively.

 

[Leprekaun]

To some of the lads here, the other sims I was referring to are well established and are widely argued to be the best (Live For Speed / rFactor / Grand Prix Legends / NR2003 / iRacing / Richard Burns Rally) so no, I'm not comparing it to NFS.

DYE_STICKY mentioned that the amount of time spent on GT is way more than what would be spent on the other sims which is why its more realistic. First of all, this fact is untrue because there have been exceptions. ISI (for those who don't know, developers of the EA F1 games and rFactor) have been around for quite some time but about a couple years later after F1 Challenge 99-02, LFS came out and it revolutionised sim racing because it felt very unique and real compared to other sims so its not necessarily about the amount of time put in but also the approach and effort done by the developers.

Something which has occurred to me why I'm finding some difficulty in driving fast in GT5P is, as Ardius explained, car setup. In other sims I've played, I often like to have the car bite into the apex easily so some entry oversteer and then just power it out hard. GT doesn't seem to like this approach, or I still apply that logic, but I'm having to go much slower on entry to get it to the apex rather than how I would like to do it. The frustrating thing though is that car setup can't be adjusted for time trial so although, I'm not doing too badly at some tracks, I feel that if the car did what I wanted it to do, I could get at least 3 or 4 tenths more out of the car and maybe even more at tracks like High Speed Ring or Suzuka.

I guess I'll just have to adjust my driving style until it works with the general setup approach of the cars.

 

[Ardius]

Yep, you need to be sliding a bit in order to go really fast. The tire dynamics work this way that they build up more grip as you reach their limit. They seem to have modeled this effect well in GT5P and GT5TT. You can see it working already by braking or acellerating. Traction will be better if you do it gradually.That's where the smooth bits comes in. If you go to the limit too fast the tires will let go..
Smooth driving is not related to driving with understeer I think, but related to how well weight transfer is controlled (any weight transfer will loose traction, so if you're smooth you're potentially going faster)
M.

Well, a driver who favours a smoother style (in cornering) will generally want a little bit of understeer to give a stable car in the corner and allow them to attack it. An aggressive style will prefer some oversteer and bigger fight with the car. Neither style is wrong or slower, just different approaches to what you find easiest to be consistent with.
But yes, you could have an aggressive cornering style, but smooth throttle application.

The comparison you have suggested is hardly fair, F1 v Road cars.
The tyres are the only point of contact, obviously. Road cars are easily twice the weight and have less than half the grip. This leads to less than a quarter of the possible regain ofcontrol, once the level of adhesion has been lost.
The margin for error off line is probably the same in time percentage, but more obvious in the road car, so it feels more of a punishment.
I'm not sure if the comparison you are making is from one sim to another and crossing styles of car too, but it read that way to me.

I realise this is not aimed at me, but I disagree to an extent, the F1 example is relevant still to get the point across. A smooth driver will be the same in most cars (within reason, obviously when we get onto rally and endurance racing there are other factors), he's going to have to adapt but the goal is the same.

 

[DYE_STICKY]

I'm a GT fan to the core, and I'm going to say right here that you don't know what he's talking about. I'm not sure about iRacing, but rFactor and LFS are both more realistic than GT.

Dude am referring to ps3 games only, cp based simulaters are not what i was talking about should of made myself clear about that although gt5 will own in graphics when it comes out.
The less input you have to do to the car, to get it around the track the faster your lap is going to be period.

 

[Ardius]

Dude am referring to ps3 games only, cp based simulaters are not what i was talking about should of made myself clear about that although gt5 will own in graphics when it comes out.
The less input you have to do to the car, to get it around the track the faster your lap is going to be period.

Not true, thats the point of this thread - you can be faster with more aggressive inputs. It depends on the driver and its all to do with consistencey and car setup.

Smoother driving is most likely an easier way for most people to be consistently fast, but not everyone. Some people prefer a car that gets ragged and can be faster with it.

 

[Leprekaun]

Actually, something that I found interesting in driving different cars is the use of different styles or applying a different logic to driving. I found that the car which to be driven fast, requires a very different approach compared to other cars is the Acura NSX (the Honda NSX is probably the same since its just a slightly more refined version). I gradually let the car skid into the corners and then just carefully balance it on the throttle but when driving other cars like the Ford GT LM Spec II, keeping it neat is what gets me fast times. My respect for PD has gone up a notch now since they develop each car's handling characteristics almost independantly so its nice to know that the cars don't feel locked within a physics engine the way some other sims do (e.g.: rFactor). I'm slowly getting there (can hotlap within 2 seconds of the records on most tracks) so a bit more work and more development of my feel and hopefully, I'll be hotlapping with the top dogs

 

[panjandrum]

We've discussed similar things many times here, but I just want to mention that I think maybe you just need more practice with GT5P to be able to "chuck it around a bit". The GT series does *feel* very different than most other racing SIMS, but your experience is exactly the opposite of mine. For me (and I'm a HUGE GT fan, like most people here), GT5P currently feels way too easy for me to chuck the cars about and then catch them. I'm running with a G25, so of course your experience may be different.

One key difference between GT and other SIMS appears to be that GT (at least GT4 and 5P) simulates (in force-feedback) the weight-balance of a car much better. But it also completely skips modeling the understeer through the force-feedback. This can be very confusing to those of us who play other SIMS or who do amateur motorsports. For example, in my classic RR Porsche, I can feel the understeer build very clearly though the steering wheel. I know at any time how much grip I have left at the front end. My classic VW Beetle does the same thing, but of course does it much less grace than the Porsche. As I go faster and begin to understeer, the wheel lightens, as I let-off the gas and allow the front to settle, the steering wheel weights-up. Most racing SIMS I've played model this through force-feedback. GT4 and GT5P don't model this at all as far as I can tell. You are completely reliant upon visual information to tell when you are losing front-end grip. For this reason, even though I LOVE the GT series, I'll never be as comfortable driving it as I will other SIMS. I have to go slower into almost every corner than I would like because I just can't tell with accuracy how much front-end grip I've still go available to me - part of the necessary feedback just isn't there. On the other hand, the way it models the weight-balance of a car (I'm a big RR fan) is better, by far, than any other SIM I've played. Feels very "true to life" (even a bit exaggerated, but that's fine considering that you're missing all other G-forces). If you are used to other SIMS, you may find it is the lack of understeer feedback which is causing your problems in GT5P. It may simply be that the motors in FFB wheels can't model everything at the same time, and Polyphony has chosen to model weight balance as a priority and thus can't use the motors to model understeer.

And a big thanks for posting that video! I've never seen such a clear comparison of driving styles. I'm definitely the third type (I like the rear to steer the car). But, I have to say that in many cases the first type (smooth) is going to be an advantage. I almost always run some "fast laps" and some "fun laps". Smoother is faster. I just got done doing two weekends of Ice-X (autocross on frozen lakes), (took a 2nd place and two 1st place trophies in the rear-wheel-drive classification, thank you very much!). My fun drifting laps were as much as 10 seconds slower than my "smooth but fast" laps. So those F1 drivers who are chucking the car about are obviously extremely talented, but the laws of physics suggest that if they learned to be smooth they would be even faster.

Dude, that was long.

 

[Ardius]

And a big thanks for posting that video! I've never seen such a clear comparison of driving styles. I'm definitely the third type (I like the rear to steer the car). But, I have to say that in many cases the first type (smooth) is going to be an advantage. I almost always run some "fast laps" and some "fun laps". Smoother is faster. I just got done doing two weekends of Ice-X (autocross on frozen lakes), (took a 2nd place and two 1st place trophies in the rear-wheel-drive classification, thank you very much!). My fun drifting laps were as much as 10 seconds slower than my "smooth but fast" laps. So those F1 drivers who are chucking the car about are obviously extremely talented, but the laws of physics suggest that if they learned to be smooth they would be even faster.

Dude, that was long.

Not necessarily, there are other factors at play in real life, such as brake and tyre temperatures and wear. Drivers who are smooth like Button treat their car better, but they struggle to build up enough temperature for the car to work at its optimum when the car setup isn't perfect.
So smooth isn't always necessarily faster, in fact, I'd say being a bit ragged helps a little especially in qualifying.
Also, drivers who tend to be aggressive also tend to drive around a car's problems rather than attempt to fix them, so arguably are quicker to come up to speed. Whereas a smoother driver would take more time to set the car up better to solve such problems.

In the end though, yeah, its faster (assuming the car setup, the track and the temperatures are all perfect like in Gran Turismo) to be smoother, but only if you feel you can be consistently smooth - thats the point in driving styles. Its a similar discussion to the one I just had about traction control in the GT5 forum, although driving the car with some rear slide is slower at the optimum, the point is that its easier for some to drive it that way. Just like how TCS doesn't necessarily mean a car is faster with it - just that its easier.

 

[Radracing]

Another point would be when trying to past someone in front who is trying hard to block your racing line. It would be an advantage to a driver that knows how to chuck the car around when this happens. It nice to be smooth when your ahead with no traffic, it saves your car for a longer stint and thus gives you the advantage. So knowing how to adapt to both driving styles to different situations regarding car handling, track situation and most importantly combat passing will always show who the better driver is. And doing it consistently I might add.

 

[Leprekaun]

Sorry but what is RR?

Thats exactly it. I feel I have to drive the cars in GT5P much slower than how I'd like on corner entry. I feel that braking is more planning than feel (if you know what I mean).

Ofcourse, there has to be braking points so thats all predefined before entering a corner but something I'm certain of is that if I overshoot my braking point in other sims, I'm able to save the car through brake and steering adjustments but with GT5P, if I miss my braking point, I often go really wide or go off. I was trying to think why that is and it has to be that GT5P hates trail braking because braking force just dissipates if I turn at all while I'm braking so this surely can't be realistic since trail braking is an important part of driving fast.

Its really frustrating the way certain sims can be much better than others in many areas but in one fundamental one, it fails. I guess the best solution to this is do really well at university, get a high paying job and race for real

 

[Ibonibo]

I think this has to due with Kaz. His mentality.
he wll never drive rough in real life, Let the abck come out of the corner,....

You're right that the times can be pretty even with both styles and Gt only rewards very need driving ,espacially the TT.

Other than F1, you can see this in every racing series in the qualy. Pretty close times with different driving styles. Or in WRC you see that X takes the corner faster in (littel gain there )and then loses a littel time on out 'cause fasterin .

Y slows down before cornering and can take a little more speed out. In the end they will be pretty close on the exit of the corrner. (if good driving with their method).

But still I think Gt is the best. GTR is good but to old engines. Always GTR1 engines

 

[zed300]

RR- Rear engine Rear wheel drive.

These other sims you keep mentioning, do you drive road cars in them?
If so then the entry speed your looking for in GT5p, is possibly to do with the way the track is presented in the graphics.
I play a few different games and they all have Suzuka. Each one is a slightly different representation of the track. GT5p seems to have a slightly tighter cornering (to look at),
still the amount of turn required by me, is very similar. I can't explain why though.

Driving styles will allow faster and slower corner times.
Following some drivers I race with regularly, I've learn't to follow their lines (far more aggressive than I would) and been able to improve my times. I struggle to do this when I'm on the track alone (TT) though.

Sometimes a mixture of smooth and aggressive styles are required to get the most out of a complex (where one corner leads to the next). i think its about geometry and the way your eyes see the corner. If there is only one fastest line, then none of us probably get close to it, because it changes for every car/tyre combination.