Why doesnt gt5 model brake fade

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Shift 2 really leaves GT5 for dead when it comes to tuning, bit confusing why Kaz makes what he feels is a 'perfect' game and fails to actually give us anything good but the physics and graphics....

SHIFT2? Really?

How do counteract and what happens when the brake on your car fades? You press harder on the brake pedal. At the moment I don't think any top PC sims including iRacing, nKar or even the upcoming rFactor2 have or will feature brake fade as part of its physics and one of the reason is that unless FFB brake pedal is made widely and cheaply available- and I'm not talking the simplified version that comes with Fanatec CSP but something like the Frex HydroBrake (with the SimCaliper attachment)- there's no point in simulating brake fade because it's a tremendously tactile experience. There was a good discussion on brake FFB on the NoGrip Forum a while back: http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-233885.html
 
I'm talking tuning options smart ass, REALLY! Shift 2 has far more tuning options than GT5 and thats a fact, you can also adjust tyre pressures, etc unlike GT5. I'm not trying to start a flame war so keep your panties on....
 
PD claims to be the real driving simulator but hauling around a track like monza in a boat like the dodge challenger is going to result in runaway truck like fade, which would effect lap times and making lap times more realistic.
plus brake upgrades would be cool.

Accurate physics and car dynamics aren't probably PD's #1 priority, that's why.
They are content with "good enough" physics. If the opposite was true, we would have not only realisic brake simulation, but also realistic ABS, TCS or ASM implementation, more realistic and accurate tire physics (and tire pressure, flat spots, temperature/pressure monitoring, etc), physics that don't become weird when cars are about to get or get airborne, and many other details that however only enthusiasts would notice.

To tell the truth I'm frustrated at this. I would like better physics (and tuning set up/parts, and so on) than better graphics or more premium cars.
 
Accurate physics and car dynamics aren't probably PD's #1 priority, that's why.
They are content with "good enough" physics. If the opposite was true, we would have not only realisic brake simulation, but also realistic ABS, TCS or ASM implementation, more realistic and accurate tire physics (and tire pressure, flat spots, temperature/pressure monitoring, etc), physics that don't become weird when cars are about to get or get airborne, and many other details that however only enthusiasts would notice.

To tell the truth I'm frustrated at this. I would like better physics (and tuning set up/parts, and so on) than better graphics or more premium cars.

I kind if agree with that, to many useless premium cars huh...
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
To tell the truth I'm frustrated at this. I would like better physics (and tuning set up/parts, and so on) than better graphics or more premium cars.

Neither Enthusia nor Ferrari Challenge nor RacePro have had a sequel. SMS seperated with EA and, as far as I understood this, pretty much quit consoles. It's maybe GT lets one tinker with 10 things and 1000 cars rather than the other way round. And I wish that for once people would come to terms with that philosophy.

On topic: You can get used to nö ABS just the same one can get used to the horrific 10 % DS3 trigger equals 60 % throttle behaviour. Just that accerlating is somehow more hairy chested than braking so people don't bother as much. At least that's how I feel and I have considerable hair on my chest :)
 
Excluding brake fade definitely makes the game significantly less realistic, but it's more of a game balance reason as to why it was excluded, I'd bet. Virtually every car other than the exotics and race cars would need some kind of brake upgrade (pads and better fluid at a bare minimum) before the car could even take to a track. In real life, very few street cars could do more than a couple laps on a track on OEM brakes without completely cooking them and making the car essentially undrivable.
 
YellowG1
Excluding brake fade definitely makes the game significantly less realistic, but it's more of a game balance reason as to why it was excluded, I'd bet. Virtually every car other than the exotics and race cars would need some kind of brake upgrade (pads and better fluid at a bare minimum) before the car could even take to a track. In real life, very few street cars could do more than a couple laps on a track on OEM brakes without completely cooking them and making the car essentially undrivable.

Thats the point. The races at the very beginning are short enough that it wouldn't be a terrible problem, but later on your Honda civic shouldn't be out braking gt-r's lap after lap at Fuji.
 
How is slowing down a race car on a race track anything like a truck rolling down a hill?
 
Why not? Non-R35 Spec V GT-Rs don't have the brake endurance to do more than several laps, either. :D

In my experience, most "non-sporting" street cars will see significant fade after just one one-and-a-half-minute lap... and will have no brakes by lap three. Sports cars are no different... some might get several full-bore laps in... others will fade to nothingness in just two or three hot laps. Nissan Zs are well known for this... but most "sports cars" are pretty bad... the Genesis V6 has noticeable brake fade after just three or four hard stops... and I doubt the brakes would last more than two full-bore laps.

But there are some cars (some cheaper) that can go much, much longer... you'll never know how long it takes for a car to experience significant fade until you test them for it... it'll take several tests for most cars, and maybe a dozen or more for higher end sports cars and supercars.

And then you factor in tires. Go up in grip and you increase the load on the brakes and induce brake fade earlier...

So... to accurately model differences in brake fade, PD will have to take every single one of those 700 to 800 or so unique models and do a dozen braking tests each on stock pads and tires (which isn't possible for some classics), then extrapolate that to differing levels based on an algorithm taking into account stock tire grip, weight, weight balance, brake bias, the difference between drums and discs, pad compound, as well as the cooling efficiency of the stock brake ducting... add some seat-of-the-pants-derived modifier to get it to "feel" right... and you'll have Gran Turismo 6 out in 2020.

Or you could simply add the commands: "brake fade, brake heat: +1% per stop", "+1% per 10 kg over 500", "brake fade x1.2 per unit of brake heat" and call it a day... :D Won't be very realistic... but it's no worse than the woefully inadequate brake bias setting that's already there.
 
Why not? Non-R35 Spec V GT-Rs don't have the brake endurance to do more than several laps, either. :D

In my experience, most "non-sporting" street cars will see significant fade after just one one-and-a-half-minute lap... and will have no brakes by lap three. Sports cars are no different... some might get several full-bore laps in... others will fade to nothingness in just two or three hot laps. Nissan Zs are well known for this... but most "sports cars" are pretty bad... the Genesis V6 has noticeable brake fade after just three or four hard stops... and I doubt the brakes would last more than two full-bore laps.

But there are some cars (some cheaper) that can go much, much longer... you'll never know how long it takes for a car to experience significant fade until you test them for it... it'll take several tests for most cars, and maybe a dozen or more for higher end sports cars and supercars.

And then you factor in tires. Go up in grip and you increase the load on the brakes and induce brake fade earlier...

So... to accurately model differences in brake fade, PD will have to take every single one of those 700 to 800 or so unique models and do a dozen braking tests each on stock pads and tires (which isn't possible for some classics), then extrapolate that to differing levels based on an algorithm taking into account stock tire grip, weight, weight balance, brake bias, the difference between drums and discs, pad compound, as well as the cooling efficiency of the stock brake ducting... add some seat-of-the-pants-derived modifier to get it to "feel" right... and you'll have Gran Turismo 6 out in 2020.

Or you could simply add the commands: "brake fade, brake heat: +1% per stop", "+1% per 10 kg over 500", "brake fade x1.2 per unit of brake heat" and call it a day... :D Won't be very realistic... but it's no worse than the woefully inadequate brake bias setting that's already there.
 
They don't need to get every car 100% right, especially in the case of standards, exactly as they already do for fuel consumption. A general fade simulation based on known or derivable parameters (brake type, size, car year, car class, etc), perhaps even optimistic (stock brakes lasting a little more than 2 laps) just to be safe and not to put anybody under bad light, would be ok too.

The rest would be calculated with simple equations and known physics, no need for arcade like "commands". If you know how much torque is applied to each wheel while braking, and how much this lasts then you can calculate heat up and cool down curves and brake performance decrease and eventually failure according to the initial specifications.

But there's more than just fade. Sports and/or racing pads/rotors have optimal working temperature ranges; sports brake kits give an usually more direct feel than stock brakes in most cases, drum brakes behave less linearily than disc brakes, and so on. They should implement these details too.
 
There's a limit on how much realism you can put into before people starting hating it.

Having brake fade would piss me off. Imagine being in the middle of an endurance race and losing your brakes. If damage is on, you're :censored:ed, if not, having fun watching everyone pass you.

What else isn't in "the real driving sim"? Driver fatigue, tire punctures, mechanical failures, oil/other fluids/parts left on the track, proper pit team, flags (black, yellow, etc.), rescue teams coming out on track after a major accident, and many, many more things.

If you want true realism, head out on the track yourself. Games are just that, games. Not true sims. Not real life. Just entertainment.
 
But this is meant to be a real driving simulator and these things happen when you're driving on a track...
 
That's true... but come on... they don't even get dynamic camber correct... :lol:

Well... considering we finally get tires overheating in this version of GT, brake overheating can't be that far off.
 
There's a limit on how much realism you can put into before people starting hating it.
Not in a simulator, which GT5 attempts to be.

Having brake fade would piss me off. Imagine being in the middle of an endurance race and losing your brakes. If damage is on, you're :censored:ed, if not, having fun watching everyone pass you.
Fade and other details could be toggable like damage and fuel/tire consumption. No problem there.

What else isn't in "the real driving sim"? Driver fatigue, tire punctures, mechanical failures, oil/other fluids/parts left on the track, proper pit team, flags (black, yellow, etc.), rescue teams coming out on track after a major accident, and many, many more things.
If you want true realism, head out on the track yourself. Games are just that, games. Not true sims. Not real life. Just entertainment.
This is called straw man fallacy.
You can already have either an arcade or a realistic experience in GT5 if you desire. Detailed brake modeling would simply add detail to the latter.
 
You guys are missing the point. Damage tire punctures ect; is all real but it does effect performance of the car lap after lap. My original point was that brake fade would effect lap times and how people go into corners, not having to worry about a tire going down halfway through the 24hrs of lemans or having brake failure altogether. The brakes would fade to a point where you could still limp around sort of like what happened on gt4 when you ran out of gas(I dont know if it still happens on gt5 I don't chance it) until the brakes cooled off a bit. And yes if you lapped as hard as you possibly could every lap the brakes would go out even on racecars, look what happened to Sebastian vettel at the Hungarian gp. So people would have to drive long races like it was for real and learn when to push and when to back off.
Further more most people on this forum play gt5 a lot, and people play it over other games for mostly one reason; because it is the closest thing to driving a real car there is, hell people spend hours and hours setting up a car for one race at one track so those people enjoy the realism of the cars' behavior so I'm sure to most of them wouldn't be too opposed to the idea.
If you don't like a realistic racing game you can always trade in that ps3 for an xbox and buy forza.
 
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