Why I think there are so many bugs in PCARS.

[TeamCZRRacing]

I finally got around to playing the game for the first time in months yesterday, and while I definitely enjoyed it (multiclass Formula racing, anyone), I did notice that there were still quite a few bugs (ofcoursethereareCZRwhytheheheckdoyouthinkeverybodycomplainsaboutthembecauseHOLYCRAPthisisonebuggygame), so as someone who paid for the alpha I've decided to share my bit on why I think the game is in the state it's in.

I think it has to do with the mentality of those who bought the alpha version: the mentality of "oh, they'll fix that/someone's already reported the issue/Slightly Mad probably already knows of the bug, so no need to report it." I'll admit I had the same mentality back when the game was still in alpha/beta, so aside from exactly one instance, I did nothing. That was a mistake; I should have been more active. And the bad thing about it was that this same way of thinking was shared by a pretty good portion of the alpha community: despite the game being relatively popular and highly anticipated in the sim racing world, the forums were pretty barren for what was supposedly a "Community Assisted Racing Simulator." The most popular portions of the site were people suggesting new features and improvements, as well as the Vehicle Paints Database; the bug-reporting section was pretty popular too, but nowhere near what it should have been given the multitude of bugs in the game.

So while it would seem that involving the community directly in the development of the game would have been a good idea, here it looks like the number of beta testers was so large that most of them didn't feel the need to report bugs. That's my take, anyway. What's yours?

 

[FuriousDemon]

Most bugs were reported. It's not that. SMS just had to release the game. If they released it now (after patch 1.5, which is coming soon), you would have far less bugs. I'm talking about generic bugs like AI, setup issues, etc. console specific stuff would not be caught anyway, but a lot of other stuff was caught.

 

[TT92]

What I cannot understand is how a game by racers for racers ended up being so bad online. It has been well documented on this site what needs to done so I wont go into it again.
Or see here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-online-multiplayer-features.329276/

How did 20,000 or so people get this soooooo wrong during the development stage?

How does basic hardware just not work properly? e.g Fanatec wheels. Bugs and glitches are to be expected with any new game but some of these are just too much :-(

And I will say it again, this game has crashed more times than every other game combined across all my different generations of PlayStations.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

And some of the road cars have the wrong stock setup ... ( FQ400 and 1M for example ) and the Clio Cup ..

When I play for an hour or so, I can already find out the 3 cars above were not accurate.

 

[BigJimmy]

and the Clio Cup ..

What's so wrong with the clio? I just softened the back end a little and its great fun. Sorry to go OT.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What's so wrong with the clio? I just softened the back end a little and its great fun. Sorry to go OT.

For a start, the spring rate uses Mk3 car ( previous gen clio cup ), the Mk4 springs are totally different in rate and arrangement ( stiffer front instead stiffer rear like Mk3 ) I can invite you to the existing conversation if you wish as I have talked about this with other members here who played Pcars

 

[GumShoe]

I'd say the answer is that SMS were very ambitious with the scope of the game, the have a relatively small (and often part time) team and budget and created the game for three platforms. They had the FCA investigation hit them hard for a fair few months and the new gen consoles got announced mid-development and we all voted to drop the old gen.

I'd personally rather the game kept its scope ambitious and be optimistic they'll sort the bugs than limit the scope and have a completely stable game that's lacking, but others of course will see it differently.

 

[Willfred_1]

What I cannot understand is how a game by racers for racers ended up being so bad online. It has been well documented on this site what needs to done so I wont go into it again.
Or see here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/project-cars-online-multiplayer-features.329276/

How did 20,000 or so people get this soooooo wrong during the development stage?

As i've said to many people, when it was just us wmd members the racing standards were fantastic there was very little contact and always close racing. As a result the racing was fine and was always smooth and trouble free. However when the game was released to public, online racing was never the same again.

 

[Bjorn Lucas]

As i've said to many people, when it was just us wmd members the racing standards were fantastic there was very little contact and always close racing. As a result the racing was fine and was always smooth and trouble free. However when the game was released to public, online racing was never the same again.

i get your point, butt that means nobody ever played a online racegame before??
Every racing game is the same online, its always like they try to play call of duty with their cars, every single racing game has that problem....

playing racegames with people that like to play clean is the best there is...

 

[Yellowbeard]

I'm sure before too long, the youngsters (of all ages) who thought they'd be a naturally gifted Senna, right from the first race, will get bored of being rubbish and ramming good drivers off in frustration and go elsewhere ... while those of us who take it semi seriously and take time to learn tracks/cars before going online will start appearing.

 

[Bjorn Lucas]

youngsters do not even know who Senna is
but i thought the same,... and in the meantime adding people that like to race clean

 

[rams1de]

I'd say the answer is that SMS were very ambitious with the scope of the game, the have a relatively small (and often part time) team and budget and created the game for three platforms. They had the FCA investigation hit them hard for a fair few months and the new gen consoles got announced mid-development and we all voted to drop the old gen.

I'd personally rather the game kept its scope ambitious and be optimistic they'll sort the bugs than limit the scope and have a completely stable game that's lacking, but others of course will see it differently.

They promote it as a AAA title, so dev budget can't genuinely be used as an excuse.

 

[Ian_83]

I'm sure before too long, the youngsters (of all ages) who thought they'd be a naturally gifted Senna, right from the first race, will get bored of being rubbish and ramming good drivers off in frustration and go elsewhere ... while those of us who take it semi seriously and take time to learn tracks/cars before going online will start appearing.

But the dirty drivers ram the good ones off and take the victory. They don't even realise that they are dirty and they are winning races.

 

[BigJimmy]

For a start, the spring rate uses Mk3 car ( previous gen clio cup ), the Mk4 springs are totally different in rate and arrangement ( stiffer front instead stiffer rear like Mk3 ) I can invite you to the existing conversation if you wish as I have talked about this with other members here who played Pcars

Oh my word. I dont have time for that. Its seems fun to me! I will stick to ignorant bliss.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Oh my word. I dont have time for that. Its seems fun to me! I will stick to ignorant bliss.

Not much to fix anyway, most parameter are locked, and the best you can do is tune the car to drive like you want.

 

[copes24]

I think SMS should be doing more internal testing. They rely on the community too much. Controller bugs should never enter the public domain.

For a start, the spring rate uses Mk3 car ( previous gen clio cup ), the Mk4 springs are totally different in rate and arrangement ( stiffer front instead stiffer rear like Mk3 ) I can invite you to the existing conversation if you wish as I have talked about this with other members here who played Pcars

The Clio is correct. The regulations are the same as the 2009 version.

http://cliocupseries.co.uk/wp-conte...ACE-AND-ROAD-SERIES-TECHNICAL-REGULATIONS.pdf

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I think SMS should be doing more internal testing. They rely on the community too much. Controller bugs should never enter the public domain.



The Clio is correct. The regulations are the same as the 2009 version.

http://cliocupseries.co.uk/wp-conte...ACE-AND-ROAD-SERIES-TECHNICAL-REGULATIONS.pdf

The Michelin series still uses Mk3 cars, from 2013 onwards, Renault has released Mk4 cars ( X98 ). You need to check the car manual to see the complete mechanical setup, what's sealed and what allowed to adjust. There are differences from MK3 to MK4, and Nic Hamilton, the consultant drove Mk3 cars in his real life championship. Pcars Clio is MK4 car ( 2014 model year ), you can easily see the visual differences. I have documentation from Renault Sport, even damper trace from Mk4 cars.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What's so wrong with the clio? I just softened the back end a little and its great fun. Sorry to go OT.

Nothing. It handles brilliantly once you put some time into tuning it, although it could be a little more stable out of the box. I thought it was going to be a nightmare after reading many posts about it being one, but once I drove it, it was pure joy the night I spent driving and tuning it for the Oulton Park SMS event.

 

[copes24]

The Michelin series still uses Mk3 cars, from 2013 onwards, Renault has released Mk4 cars ( X98 ). You need to check the car manual to see the complete mechanical setup, what's sealed and what allowed to adjust. There are differences from MK3 to MK4, and Nic Hamilton, the consultant drove Mk3 cars in his real life championship. Pcars Clio is MK4 car ( 2014 model year ), you can easily see the visual differences. I have documentation from Renault Sport, even damper trace from Mk4 cars.

I'm guessing the documentation you have is for the road car which isn't the same as the race car. Rear springs are stiffer on race car to prevent understeer and they are not adjustable in the race series. The Mk4 body type race car was used in the 2014 series and is currently being used in this year's.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I'm guessing the documentation you have is for the road car which isn't the same as the race car. Rear springs are stiffer on race car to prevent understeer and they are not adjustable in the race series. The Mk4 body type race car was used in the 2014 series and is currently being used in this year's.

Hope this helps.

Nope, you are wrong, I have Clio Cup Manual from Renault Sport, it even has setup sheet. The Mk4 Clio Cup uses Eibach springs, I can even tell you the color coding used by Renault Sport, and yes it's fixed along with many parts like gearbox and LSD. And Mk4 final gear in Pcars is also incorrect.

Michelin Series in UK uses third generation Clio Cup Race car, if you know what you are talking about, you will see in technical spec section, it has Mk3 engine with 205 BHP and max engine speed at 7500RPM. The MK4 car has turbocharged engine, 220BHP, max engine speed 6500RPM. If it does use Mk4 car, the tech spec page would reflect that.

And, no I don't the help, SMS does.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If anyone doubt where my sources are, it's from Renault Sport ( I can't tell from whom I got it and I may breach the term by posting these in original form in public forum, so I put low res version in black and white + deleted the year model designation. It still show 98Cup / Mk4 )

This is OT, anyone want to discuss Clio Cup, send me PM.

 

[copes24]

As I suspected you are referring to the Clio cup road car. The car in the game is the current Clio cup race car. They are not the same. It's not worth further discussion.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As I suspected you are referring to the Clio cup road car. The car in the game is the current Clio cup race car. They are not the same. It's not worth further discussion.

Road car ? Do you even know the difference ? I refer to the race car, it has Sadev 6 speed sequential box, that picture is the Sadev 6 speed. Unbelievable

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Here is another picture just to show it's the race car :

I have the complete docs, including 2015 technical regulation for MK4 Clio Cup race car.

 

[killerjimbag]

Here is another picture just to show it's the race car :

View attachment 396028

I have the complete docs, including 2015 technical regulation for MK4 Clio Cup race car.[/QUOTE
Well back to GT6 then. We all know that GT5 and 6 were perfect games with no problems.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Well back to GT6 then. We all know that GT5 and 6 were perfect games with no problems.

Thanks for the reminder and sarcasm, didn't do a thing to me though. I'm not typical GT player . I have played Pcars on PS4, not a good experience but still planning on getting the 2nd one in the future ( hoping it will be much better state when released ), but I'm afraid I have to open OEM/replica garage too if they keep doing cars like FQ400/1M or Clio.
I'm actually a member in pcars forum, asked by a fellow from another forum. Helping him fixing up the 1M tune ( via PM ), tying to get close to his 1M ( stock ) driven at track day.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Thanks for the reminder and sarcasm, didn't do a thing to me though. I'm not typical GT player . I have played Pcars on PS4, not a good experience but still planning on getting the 2nd one in the future ( hoping it will be much better state when released ), but I'm afraid I have to open OEM/replica garage too if they keep doing cars like FQ400/1M or Clio.
I'm actually a member in pcars forum, asked by a fellow from another forum. Helping him fixing up the 1M tune ( via PM ), tying to get close to his 1M ( stock ) driven at track day.

Plugging in real world numbers doesn't make a car drive like the real car, mimicing real world physics does. PCars is so far ahead of GT in that regard it isn't funny, so if you are really interested in making replicas that are much closer in game to their real life counterparts, PCars is the place to be.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Plugging in real world numbers doesn't make a car drive like the real car, mimicing real world physics does. PCars is so far ahead of GT in that regard it isn't funny, so if you are really interested in making replicas that are much closer in game to their real life counterparts, PCars is the place to be.

This is where you are showing that you are misunderstanding my intention. Both real world numbers ( correct data ) and proper physics engine are necessary. If you think Clio Cup with totally different spring rate and caster, much higher damper value than the real car uses is fine, then you never really care about accuracy of a simulation at all, all you care about is it feels great to drive and realistic enough for you.
Don't you feel curious how the Clio will drive if it has the correct spring rate ( stiffer front and softer rear ), correct caster ( lower ), correct damper values range ( the curve cover 20 click range adjustment and lower than Pcars renge ), and no rear anti roll bar ( yes the real Clio do not have rear anti roll bar, even the MK3 ). Then the correct final gear, Renault Sport uses special final not normally available from Sadev catalog ( Pcars sues finals from the Sadev Catalog, so one cannot know this without referring to the Renault Sport data )

My main issue though, is mainly concerned with road cars in PCars.

Have you read the consultant feedback report, they are based on custom tune not OEM setting for some road cars. Try drive the FQ400, that car has Nic Hamilton tune as stock, and SMS altered the steering ratio to be more forgiving as Nic likes very fast steering. The final FQ400 on release is basically Nic Hamilton tune, it doesn't not even use the real car spring rate. Nic didn't even notice the final gear is using 6 speed SST final, much lower at 4.062 on a 5 speed Manual Evo X that should have 4.687 final.

If you read the whole report, you will have greater understanding of what the physics lead and consultant did to each car. They often change the car parameter to what Ben Collins and Nic Hamilton think the car should do ( on a setup of their liking as they tweak SMS tune ), including specific tire of each car. The FQ400 for example, the spring rate was higher than the Eibach spring fitted on the real car ( if Pcars has proper spring physics and properly coded the motion ratio, this will make the car handle differently than it should have with OEM spring rate )

Then the caster, Oh my Lord, it has 6.00 stock caster as used by Nic, the real OEM Evo X caster is 4degree 25minutes or 4.4 degree( not adjustable/fixed ) Lowering can alter the caster usually 3.9 to 4.1, some stock Evo X has 4.2 or 4.1 caster ( degree ).The FQ400 is lower by 30mm front and 25mm rear from stock ( Eibach Pro Kit ). the ride height also seems to be off in Pcars. The higher caster alone alters the car turn in unlike the real car would drive. I havent touched the S-AWC yet, which seems to be not fully modeled ( ACD + AYC in particular )

See where I am getting at ... they are built with incorrect data to begin with, shaped to the consultant feedback. If the consultant didn't even know the car setup is unlike the real car, how they can be accountable for the end result ? They may give input to make the car drives realistic according to their experience driving similar car, like Nic said in his feedback on FQ400, he based it on his general AWD car knowledge ( he didn't mention specific real FQ400 handling traits ) and yet he also has to consider stable handling car as stock ( if you read in details ), Nic and Casey Ringley aim to tune the car to be good to drive ( stable, safe but still quick ) using custom setup.

My only wish is this, get the car data correct ( springs, tested real life weight/distribution, caster, alignment, gear ratio, and all the basic data ), then fine tune the other parameter like tire, chassis, aero drag etc using the consultant feedback. With old race car and data is scarce, I can understand, but the new cars like FQ400, 1M and Clio Cup 2014 Mk4, these should have correct data from the start of build process. This way, we can be sure Pcars is producing closer true to life replication of the real car and then when I get Pcars 2, I wont have to check the OEM stock setup and make correction again, just drive and be sure 100% it's as close as you can get to the real deal.

SMS also has hinted of giving OEM setup later on, will have to see if these OEM setup indeed correct OEM.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Just got a word from WMD member, my observation on the Clio has been noted Let's hope they will update the Clio on 2.0 patch release 👍

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is where you are showing that you are misunderstanding my intention. Both real world numbers ( correct data ) and proper physics engine are necessary. If you think Clio Cup with totally different spring rate and caster, much higher damper value than the real car uses is fine, then you never really care about accuracy of a simulation at all, all you care about is it feels great to drive and realistic enough for you.
Don't you feel curious how the Clio will drive if it has the correct spring rate ( stiffer front and softer rear ), correct caster ( lower ), correct damper values range ( the curve cover 20 click range adjustment and lower than Pcars renge ), and no rear anti roll bar ( yes the real Clio do not have rear anti roll bar, even the MK3 ). Then the correct final gear, Renault Sport uses special final not normally available from Sadev catalog ( Pcars sues finals from the Sadev Catalog, so one cannot know this without referring to the Renault Sport data )

My main issue though, is mainly concerned with road cars in PCars.

Have you read the consultant feedback report, they are based on custom tune not OEM setting for some road cars. Try drive the FQ400, that car has Nic Hamilton tune as stock, and SMS altered the steering ratio to be more forgiving as Nic likes very fast steering. The final FQ400 on release is basically Nic Hamilton tune, it doesn't not even use the real car spring rate. Nic didn't even notice the final gear is using 6 speed SST final, much lower at 4.062 on a 5 speed Manual Evo X that should have 4.687 final.

If you read the whole report, you will have greater understanding of what the physics lead and consultant did to each car. They often change the car parameter to what Ben Collins and Nic Hamilton think the car should do ( on a setup of their liking as they tweak SMS tune ), including specific tire of each car. The FQ400 for example, the spring rate was higher than the Eibach spring fitted on the real car ( if Pcars has proper spring physics and properly coded the motion ratio, this will make the car handle differently than it should have with OEM spring rate )

Then the caster, Oh my Lord, it has 6.00 stock caster as used by Nic, the real OEM Evo X caster is 4degree 25minutes or 4.4 degree( not adjustable/fixed ) Lowering can alter the caster usually 3.9 to 4.1, some stock Evo X has 4.2 or 4.1 caster ( degree ).The FQ400 is lower by 30mm front and 25mm rear from stock ( Eibach Pro Kit ). the ride height also seems to be off in Pcars. The higher caster alone alters the car turn in unlike the real car would drive. I havent touched the S-AWC yet, which seems to be not fully modeled ( ACD + AYC in particular )

See where I am getting at ... they are built with incorrect data to begin with, shaped to the consultant feedback. If the consultant didn't even know the car setup is unlike the real car, how they can be accountable for the end result ? They may give input to make the car drives realistic according to their experience driving similar car, like Nic said in his feedback on FQ400, he based it on his general AWD car knowledge ( he didn't mention specific real FQ400 handling traits ) and yet he also has to consider stable handling car as stock ( if you read in details ), Nic and Chris Ringley aim to tune the car to be good to drive ( stable, safe but still quick ) using custom setup.

My only wish is this, get the car data correct ( springs, tested real life weight/distribution, caster, alignment, gear ratio, and all the basic data ), then fine tune the other parameter like tire, chassis, aero drag etc using the consultant feedback. With old race car and data is scarce, I can understand, but the new cars like FQ400, 1M and Clio Cup 2014 Mk4, these should have correct data from the start of build process. This way, we can be sure Pcars is producing closer true to life replication of the real car and then when I get Pcars 2, I wont have to check the OEM stock setup and make correction again, just drive and be sure 100% it's as close as you can get to the real deal.

SMS also has hinted of giving OEM setup later on, will have to see if these OEM setup indeed correct OEM.

I believe you missed the entire point of my post.