Why is everyone placing power restrictions on drift comps?

[Meandog]

I think that the only reason why there are restrictions is that "event organizers" want the races to seem fair to everyone, even though it doesnt really matter. the only restriction should be for the players to actually be able to drift their cars under control and not spin out every corner.

 

[HKSD1]

The point is that 99% of the time it doesn't have to be regulated, the drivers do it themselves. No-one wants to win just by having more power, I guarantee it.

It's even easier with GT, because there is data logging and it is so easy to tell if someone is not adhering to the rules, 'is the gap getting bigger?', 'was he at full throttle when it was KNOWN that he had a power advantage?'.

The other simple fact is, in real life, it is a REQUIREMENT that the car NEVER straightens up other than for the run-up, so, since the car should ALWAYS be drifting, straight line speed is not even an issue. The same should go for GT really, the judged sections should REQUIRE that the driver NEVER straightens up, therfore it makes no difference who has what power.

Besides which, power is taken into account while judging, this is another reason why it's easier to judge in GT, we have known power figures. In real life, people sometimes 'sandbag' by saying their engine is stock and only makes 300bhp when actually it makes 390 etc etc, this is not an issue in GT.

As far as I can see, it's people trying to 'level the playing field' when in fact all they are doing is making it boring. You are limiting what cars will enter by saying that you have to find whatever car works best with 400bhp (or whatever power is limited to). Simple fact is, in GT, with a circa 400bhp limit, that car is the FD RX7, so what is the next thing? Ban RX7's because they develope so much more grip than most other cars? Why should I be disadvantaged by wanting to compete in my R32 (or whatever I choose), when it is blatantly obvious that an RX will piss all over a similar power R32.

I've read all the reasons people have given, and it still seems to me like the people restricting power have no idea how power actually affects a the performance of a drift car and they are trying to level a playing field in a way that is, in fact, totally ineffective, and actually just makes the playing field more uneven as it is basically saying 'you have to drive 'x' car to do well'.


Rubbish, the fact is, most 450bhp cars will build more speed between corners than, for instance, my Viper, because I keep the wheels spinning whereas they grip and accelerate,building more speed.


You don't need macros, it's easy. Besides which, in real life, if the slower car backs off the throttle (or the single car if it is during qualifying) is required to be FULL THROTTLE on ALL straights right up to the point of initiation. If he lifts, it is considered a MASSIVE loss of points as he is not going as fast as his car is CAPABLE of going.

Re: Braking, again, touch the breaks in a straight line = MASSIVE fail.


That was down to grip, I'd have done the same thing on stock power. The fact is POWER made no difference. Besides which, only time anyone can really catch me is if they're in an RX LOL I know this sounds REALLY arrogant, but that's life, I've always been a very fast drifter (in real life) due to my race-car experience, so even in identical cars I suspect you'd struggle to keep up if I was leading and wanted to pull a gap.



Feel free.

if you go back and take alook, the only reason i said power should be regulated because the existing comps chosen section that is not FULLY linkable, which it should never have been. when an unlinkable section is present, then it's best to accelerate to highest speed possible on the straight away and pull off the furthest entry for the coming corner. saito daigo will not wait for you before the first corner entry just because you dont have enough speed to do the jump entry down ebisu south, nor he will wait for you just because you can't hit 200km/h entry speed at autopolis.

on a straight away a higher hp car can and will built up more speed, a 600hp car is more likely to be able to initiate much further away than a lower hp car.

for example from start point to 1st corner of suzuka, one will slide much further away if one can built more speed before the turn.

you believe you are mistakenly taking it as a higher horsepower car will drift quicker than a lower horsepower car.

my 600hp btr is much slower in mid-drift and corner exit than my 450hp mcoupe, but if given a straight which my btr can built up more speed, it's possible to have a further entry than my mcoupe with less power.

and regarding all the real life stuff, we all know you are a experienced real life drifter so you can calm down now. we are in virtual drifting not real life drifting.

 

[Hayden]

OK, this thread is directed at me, i get that. The reason I limited the power at 500BHP, was the hope that people with higher power level cars could actualy find a new car that suits them better. Another reason has already been stated, people speeding off and locking on the brakes. I have seen this in the H2H and it destroyed the other drivers line. As for data logging, you can't view it while in a lobby so that doesn't really help the live judges. You have a point, some people prefer high power cars, but TBH is building a new drift car that big of a deal? 3 or 4 grind races will give you more then enough moneu and to my understanding people enjoy tuning their cars to the best they can be. I have called one more time once already because One driver simpl left the other behind and while that may be due to skill, it still makes the battle in judgeable

 

[TwinturboCH]

if you go back and take alook, the only reason i said power should be regulated because the existing comps chosen section that is not FULLY linkable, which it should never have been.

Apologies, I missed that bit. I wholeheartedly agree.

when an unlinkable section is present, then it's best to accelerate to highest speed possible on the straight away and pull off the furthest entry for the coming corner.

Qualifying, yes, always. In battles, then straight is very rarely long enough to mean that power can make a difference, especially if the lead driver extends his entry onto the straight as he should. If he backs off early to straighten the car and then gun it in a straight line, he'll lose points regardless, so pulling a gap is nullified. Thus, power difference does not affect the outcome.

saito daigo will not wait for you before the first corner entry just because you dont have enough speed to do the jump entry down ebisu south, nor he will wait for you just because you can't hit 200km/h entry speed at autopolis.

Video evidence 1, D1GP, 2009, Autopolis, Daigo Saito (800bhp Chaser) vs Nomura (560bhp ER34).

Is there a gap before the judged section at ANY point? No, because he clearly isn't flat out in the first three gears when in front. How can I tell? No external wastegate noise. Why? See below regarding the cone

Video evidence 2, D1GP, 2010, Autopolis, Daigo Saito (800bhp Chaser) vs Suenaga (500bhp FD3 RX7).

Admittedly there is slightly more of a gap this time when Saito leads, however, does that power difference translate into an 'advantage'. Again, no, because it is harder to manage the higher power and he ends up making mistakes as a result because his excess power means he gets too close and then has to lift and straighten. In fact, Suenaga, in the lower powered car, initiates EARLIER in one of the battles.

on a straight away a higher hp car can and will built up more speed, a 600hp car is more likely to be able to initiate much further away than a lower hp car.

That's easy to solve by using D1/FD/JDM etc rules. You have a start line where the cars start level, you then place a cone in the middle of the track 100 metres from the start line. Up until this cone, both cars must remain level, with the slower car ALWAYS being flat out.
After the cone, the car that is due to follow must drop in behind the lead car. By this point, both cars are usually doing 60-70mph and so acceleration after this point is very rarely enough to create a gap by the time the cars have covered another 150metres to get to the corner. Even with 300bhp power difference as per the video above, the gap is only a car length. That difference is not enough to warrant power restrictions.

for example from start point to 1st corner of suzuka, one will slide much further away if one can built more speed before the turn.

Easily solved by the above rule. the difference in initiation point will be incredibly close, especially bearing in mind the variance known as the driver.

you believe you are mistakenly taking it as a higher horsepower car will drift quicker than a lower horsepower car.

Some people replied saying that it was simply 'levelling the playing field', I took that to mean that their opinion was that high horsepower will drift faster than low horsepower. I apoligise ifthat is not the case, but it is the most obvious conclusion to draw without being given any further detail (or in the case of your post, me missing the fact it was there LOL).

my 600hp btr is much slower in mid-drift and corner exit than my 450hp mcoupe, but if given a straight which my btr can built up more speed, it's possible to have a further entry than my mcoupe with less power.

That is simply down to the fact that it is rear engined and so puts the power down better in a straight line, it would be the same if you dropped the power down to the same 450 as the M coupe.

and regarding all the real life stuff, we all know you are a experienced real life drifter so you can calm down now. we are in virtual drifting not real life drifting.

I am calm, I only mentioned it jokingly to Jimmy who I drift often with online. Yes it's virtual, but GT5 physics realistic enough to apply the same rules to both.

 

[notveryhappyjac]

i like using my 987hp / 1008 torque Viper to drift, thing actually slides really well for having race softs, lol

 

[TwinturboCH]

OK, this thread is directed at me, i get that. The reason I limited the power at 500BHP, was the hope that people with higher power level cars could actualy find a new car that suits them better. Another reason has already been stated, people speeding off and locking on the brakes. I have seen this in the H2H and it destroyed the other drivers line. As for data logging, you can't view it while in a lobby so that doesn't really help the live judges. You have a point, some people prefer high power cars, but TBH is building a new drift car that big of a deal? 3 or 4 grind races will give you more then enough moneu and to my understanding people enjoy tuning their cars to the best they can be. I have called one more time once already because One driver simpl left the other behind and while that may be due to skill, it still makes the battle in judgeable

It's not directed at you at all mate, it's just a general trend I've spotted. You didn't start it and you, from what I can see, have based your rules off those of others who went before you on previous games, so no, it DEFINATELY isn't aimed at you

Regarding your personal reasons for instigating the power limit, see my post above about the cone rule. Set a point on the track up to which the cars must remain level, then see how much of a gap a big power car can pull

i like using my 987hp / 1008 torque Viper to drift, thing actually slides really well for having race softs, lol

LOL, but fail haha

 

[Hayden]

It's a good rule, that's true but cones aren't available on every track and even when they are it takes a while to position them. Getting b-spec bob to stand their would be cool but is unfortunately impossible. The only viable option would be to park a car thief but if someone crashed into him...

 

[TwinturboCH]

It's a good rule, that's true but cones aren't available on every track and even when they are it takes a while to position them. Getting b-spec bob to stand their would be cool but is unfortunately impossible. The only viable option would be to park a car thief but if someone crashed into him...

Some tracks, a cone would not be necessary, you can just pick a reference point on the circuit up to which point the drivers must remain level. Some tracks have cones available, some have big moveable white foam blocks. For those that don't, there is no reason why you can't draw a line on the track with tyre marks by doing a rolling burnout accross the track

A bit of lateral thinking is all that is required

 

[ZacKisBacK_Fr]

Sounds like the best solution, a car on the track side. So that the power supposed advantage is near zero. I also agree that it takes more skills to handle the most powerfull cars or at least, gives the opportunity for more mistakes so it's more or less the same.
Just what car you are the most comfortable with.

My 2 cents anyway.

 

[TwinturboCH]

Sounds like the best solution, a car on the track side. So that the power supposed advantage is near zero. I also agree that it takes more skills to handle the most powerfull cars or at least, gives the opportunity for more mistakes so it's more or less the same.
Just what car you are the most comfortable with.

My 2 cents anyway.

Car at the side of the track is a great idea for when cones etc aren't available 👍

 

[HKSD1]

Is there a gap before the judged section at ANY point? No, because he clearly isn't flat out in the first three gears when in front. How can I tell? No external wastegate noise. Why? See below regarding the cone

the gap of 2:06 vs 3:32 is dead obvious. as for the noise i dont know which point you are referring to so i'm just going to leave it at that

as to regarding the cones, us LFS drifters have been using the cone speed trapping method to regulate speed differences between the FZ5 (360hp) vs XRT (245hp).
cone being placed a short distance before initiating point, and anything road before those cones are speed governed, only until you pass the cones you can start accelerate. a much simpler solution than flating out and falling back or whatever.

but as long as there isn't a specific regulation system in place that strictly put things down to black and white.....i dont see the need of holding my throttle down the straight before entry. without some type of governing system, one could argue if you are pulling too far away or not.

 

[HKSD1]

Car at the side of the track is a great idea for when cones etc aren't available 👍

only possible when there are extra drivers during the runs.

for your interest, my best 16 run have only me and my opponent, no judge
and my best 8 match i only have myself waiting for 30mins before knowing no one will be showing up

 

[eXJaGGeD]

You're full TTCH.

 

[TwinturboCH]

the gap of 2:06 vs 3:32 is dead obvious. as for the noise i dont know which point you are referring to so i'm just going to leave it at that

But the point is it isn't a big enough gap to affect the outcome. Regarding the noise, I posted the wrong video of Nomura vs Saito, I meant to post the one from 2010 which has an in-car view of Saito while leading and it's like the in-car from the qualifying run in that 2009 vid, no wastegate in first three gears, he finally floors it in fourth. I'll see if I can find the 2010 one with the in-car.

as to regarding the cones, us LFS drifters have been using the cone speed trapping method to regulate speed differences between the FZ5 (360hp) vs XRT (245hp).
cone being placed a short distance before initiating point, and anything road before those cones are speed governed, only until you pass the cones you can start accelerate. a much simpler solution than flating out and falling back or whatever.

So you know how to make this rule work The best way is usually to place the cone somewhere around the half-way point between the startline and the corner, or 50 metres from the initiation point, whichever is further from the initiation point.
E.G. Startline is 600 metres front corner (Suzuka?), 500 metre run up, initiating 100 metres from corner, cone/line would be at 300 metres (half-way).
E.G.2 Startline is 300 metres from corner (Eiger?), 230 metre run up, initiating 70 meters from corner, cone/line is at 150 metres (half-way).
E.G.3 Startline is 100 metres from the corner (Tsukuba?), 80 metre run-up, initiating 20 metres from corner, cone/line would be 30 metres after the start line (50 metres from initiation).

but as long as there isn't a specific regulation system in place that strictly put things down to black and white.....i dont see the need of holding my throttle down the straight before entry. without some type of governing system, one could argue if you are pulling too far away or not.

Exactly, that was the reason I posted, I'd like to try and contribute to getting rules in place that can govern every drift comp. The cone system pretty much eliminates the need for anything such as requiring the lead driver to make sure he doesn't pull away etc. As long as the cars are level with one another up until the cone/line/whatever, no other regulation is necessary as the differences are negligable, unless you are talking about a half mile run-up, which should never be the case.

only possible when there are extra drivers during the runs.

for your interest, my best 16 run have only me and my opponent, no judge
and my best 8 match i only have myself waiting for 30mins before knowing no one will be showing up

Hence why I said you could draw a line on the track by doing a burnout

 

[TwinturboCH]

You're full TTCH.

Try now.

 

[SKR-Kaizer]

In Forza 3, we have judges sitting besides the corners or clipping point, we never really run full course, just small sections like Formula D and D1, and we also have flexible rules such as rolling start/stand still, allow kerbs or not.

Rolling start will probably even things out even more, since low horsepower car lack the torque and their tires are often thinner than high power car, which means they will struggle to regain traction to accelarate.

Forza have a much more organized drift community compared to GT, since those rules (and drifters/organizers) were already there from their very first game.

 

[nk4e]

In Forza 3, we have judges sitting besides the corners or clipping point, we never really run full course, just small sections like Formula D and D1, and we also have flexible rules such as rolling start/stand still, allow kerbs or not.

Rolling start will probably even things out even more, since low horsepower car lack the torque and their tires are often thinner than high power car, which means they will struggle to regain traction to accelarate.

Forza have a much more organized drift community compared to GT, since those rules (and drifters/organizers) were already there from their very first game.

From my experience, I only watch if any person did spin out or who was actually leading.

 

[TwinturboCH]

Rolling start will probably even things out even more, since low horsepower car lack the torque and their tires are often thinner than high power car, which means they will struggle to regain traction to accelarate.

That's basically what the cone is, a rolling start point that the cars must be level until. If it's good enough for Forza, it's good enough for GT5, there are enough similarities that would lead me to believe what works for you guys would work for us