Why is the programming in this game so flawed??

[Asane]

What did you expect?

I've noticed the AI improve as I've leveled, largely because they can actually take a corner now, so I'm not anticipating when they'll inexplicably brake at random points in the turn.

That said, I did get a bit squirrely on Daytona at 180+ mph and drifted up the banking, only to be rear ended by a Zonda into the barrier and repeatedly nailed by every car behind that, all while bouncing off the barrier again and again. Needless to say, the repair bill has been left unpaid! It was my mistake, but perhaps the AI could have done better at avoiding me!

B-Spec also improves, although it still is infuriating!

lol So, I guess we can all agree that the AI has trouble reacting to how we drive then?

 

[Griffith500]

lol So, I guess we can all agree that the AI has trouble reacting to how we drive then?

In a way, yes. In that particular example, the Zonda could have lifted, but if I'd have been in that position, I might well have charged through and hoped for the best. Lift-off oversteer at high speed on steep banking is horrendous.

The problem with the AI on ovals is that they don't "get it". They tend to wander around in the corners like they would on a normal circuit, whilst they ought to be holding a line / height in the turn (for safety's sake, at least). The biggest issues here are that if you're making headway on the cars in front, the chances are they'll cut you off, forcing you to reduce speed suddenly, and potentially causing an accident. That's probably what happened to me, I think a 512BB drifted down the banking and I perhaps foolishly lifted, struggled with the resulting oversteer and drifted up the banking into the path of the Zonda. So perhaps it was the AI's initial fault. Then again, I saw a lot of this sort of behaviour online, too - in Prologue.

The other issue is that if the AI is gaining on you, they don't afford you the room that they should, and where side-to-side panel contact on low-speed circuits is largely inconsequential, it's pretty catastrophic at speed. This probably also explains why they're apparently so dire on High Speed Ring. I've not had any problems there myself, but then I am quite uncompetitive on that circuit, so I resort to using rocket sleds.

 

[Devedander]

I know exactly what he is saying. I'm talking about his basic assumptions of what the code is doing. In his Terms"There's two ways in my opinion the game checks for this", so I'm saying that the AI is governed by more then just 2 parameters, regardless of how simple you state it. I'm sure if someone sat down and analysed it you would find out more then those 2 parameters for a DQ, i got gold on the Elise challenge, 2 hours of DQing, and i can tell you that it was a little more then neutral" state and a "braking and amount of speed, i agree that those are factors. but there is more then 2, that was my point

Without reverse engineering you can't know for sure, but after putting in literally dozens of races on the TGTT Lotus race, I cannot think of a time when that ruleset did not fit with my DQs (excluding me going off track or hitting barriers obviously).

Any collision over Xmphs resulted in DQ.

Any collision in which the AI was not also obviously accelerating resulted in a DQ.

All other contact seemed to go over fine.


If you want to be pedantic I suppose you can argue the programming to cary this out may be flawless and we can't know without seeing the code.

But I think the spirit of the comment was that the logic behind that programing is flawed and results in DQs in frustrating and unfair situations.

 

[Stonemonkey]

It moves off the racing line if it's being lapped.

griffith, if you do the top gear event in the bus, stay behind and watch the one in front of you, particularly at chicago, it does exactly the same thing every time, then start again and give it a bump as quickly as you can and then watch what it does at that point. It's not scripted, the reason it repeats when not interfered with is that until there's a random element in the equation (human player catches up and interferes) the AI experiences exactly the same conditions each time and has definite responses. A computer can't help but crunch numbers accurately time and time again. A random element could be programmed in easily just by changing the AI's starting position or angle by a very small amount (talking mm or 100ths degree) which could be enough to totally change the final outcome but for these events and the same for GT4 it seems PD want part of the challenge to be to work out a path through the AI.

 

[Devedander]

It moves off the racing line if it's being lapped.

griffith, if you do the top gear event in the bus, stay behind and watch the one in front of you, particularly at chicago, it does exactly the same thing every time, then start again and give it a bump as quickly as you can and then watch what it does at that point. It's not scripted, the reason it repeats when not interfered with is that until there's a random element in the equation (human player catches up and interferes) the AI experiences exactly the same conditions each time and has definite responses. A computer can't help but crunch numbers accurately time and time again. A random element could be programmed in easily just by changing the AI's starting position or angle by a very small amount (talking mm or 100ths degree) which could be enough to totally change the final outcome but for these events and the same for GT4 it seems PD want part of the challenge to be to work out a path through the AI.

A simple way to seed randomness into behavioral AI is to use the millisecond the race starts or some other time. While it provides only a finite number of starting conditions, it's often enough to give the apperance of true randomness. That would have been easy to impliment here.

As a different test when you are about to go into that first right hand constant radius turn, on the straightaway before it I believe one of the cars always steps out a bit for no apparent reason and files back in line. If you lightly touch this car much earlier in the race it will have time to get back in line and step out again at the same point proving it is indeed scripted as something has changed in it's path before this point however that has not affected this odd choice to step out right there.

 

[fwiler]

I think the real issue is that the tests don't really test your driving ability as much as having to memorize the opponents tricks.
I have a friend of mine that races and tried quite a few of the tests and he said no one in their right mind would drive like that.
To me that is a flaw for something that is claimed as a simulator.

 

[Stonemonkey]

Yep devedander, I used a slight delay in reaction to the start in a game I made, look up 'yabasic f1' on youtube if you want a laugh at some AI. The AI in that was programmed to look at what the track ahead was shaped like and to consider where other cars were then pass control input in joypad form to the physics code.

I think you're talking about the same bit of track I was meaning, the short straight exiting chicago, but it's behaviour is exactly the same with no interference but altered when it is, I've seen it step out much earlier, and sometimes not at all. There is probably something to do with the positioning of the car in front that makes it consider going into the corner on the inside line but I'm certain it's not scripted in any way.

 

[SavageEvil]

Hold on you guys are arguing if the AI is scripted or not? All of the special events are scripted to be tough to a certain degree. The only way to make a test as sterile as possible is to control most of the factors in it. You are the variable added to the entire equation, the AI is specifically geared to whatever test you are in.

License tests are done this way intentionally, they want you to get what they are trying to tell you. They are judging your performance, how you handle the situation the Ai are just the blind road mates who follow orders and do not deviate. First time I heard anyone complain about this license test, I didn't even notice this as I am always trying to be smoother and faster...I never brake early, I let off the gas but braking is all about feel. If the Ai is rear ending you, then you are obviously doing something wrong and therefore slow enough that the Ai is catching up with you. Lesson, be faster and smoother and the AI won't hit you. If the Ai was progressive and tried to avoid you, then you wouldn't have learned to tighten up your driving and increase your attack on that particular corner...thus not using your tires or your car to it's fullest.

The tests are geared to teaching you things in a sterile as possible way, eliminating as much outside interference as possible, the only variable is you.

In other races the AI can be stupid especially when you spin out or get sideways on a course, some may go around you but for the most part they will plow into you. PD needs to fix that, but realistically speaking you getting side ways in a race automatically you getting sent to the rear of the pack, either way you'll be in the same spot. When in real life have you seen a race where a car spins out and retains his position lest he was ahead by quite some margin? Yea doesn't happen. But PD should work on the Ai look ahead and avoid maneuvers, would make for a more realistic scene as cars just plowing into you is plain ridiculous. But the test and special events are fine, you just need to drive, better, smoother and faster.

 

[Devedander]

Yep devedander, I used a slight delay in reaction to the start in a game I made, look up 'yabasic f1' on youtube if you want a laugh at some AI. The AI in that was programmed to look at what the track ahead was shaped like and to consider where other cars were then pass control input in joypad form to the physics code.

That F1 game took me back to the good ol pole position days!

 

[Asane]

Hold on you guys are arguing if the AI is scripted or not? All of the special events are scripted to be tough to a certain degree. The only way to make a test as sterile as possible is to control most of the factors in it. You are the variable added to the entire equation, the AI is specifically geared to whatever test you are in.

License tests are done this way intentionally, they want you to get what they are trying to tell you. They are judging your performance, how you handle the situation the Ai are just the blind road mates who follow orders and do not deviate. First time I heard anyone complain about this license test, I didn't even notice this as I am always trying to be smoother and faster...I never brake early, I let off the gas but braking is all about feel. If the Ai is rear ending you, then you are obviously doing something wrong and therefore slow enough that the Ai is catching up with you. Lesson, be faster and smoother and the AI won't hit you. If the Ai was progressive and tried to avoid you, then you wouldn't have learned to tighten up your driving and increase your attack on that particular corner...thus not using your tires or your car to it's fullest.

The tests are geared to teaching you things in a sterile as possible way, eliminating as much outside interference as possible, the only variable is you.

In other races the AI can be stupid especially when you spin out or get sideways on a course, some may go around you but for the most part they will plow into you. PD needs to fix that, but realistically speaking you getting side ways in a race automatically you getting sent to the rear of the pack, either way you'll be in the same spot. When in real life have you seen a race where a car spins out and retains his position lest he was ahead by quite some margin? Yea doesn't happen. But PD should work on the Ai look ahead and avoid maneuvers, would make for a more realistic scene as cars just plowing into you is plain ridiculous. But the test and special events are fine, you just need to drive, better, smoother and faster.

lol Yeah, they have to have control, but when an AI car keeps on spinning me out on an already unstable car just to get on their line, then it gets really annoying.

The AI in GT has to react to what you the player are doing. They have to "dynamically" think about where you are and decide what to do at every part of the race. Though, this is easier said than done.

Oh, and Ickis my opinion of there being two conditions was completely based off the IA-10 license test which in my opinion these were the only two conditions I saw which always led to DQ.

Heck, on IA-10, I spun out some AI cars from time to time and never got DQ for it which doesn't make sense.

 

[Stonemonkey]

That F1 game took me back to the good ol pole position days!

Heh, yep, Sonys tax dodge didn't make much of the PS2's power available so it was quite a bit of work to squeeze even that out of it. But the AI, although extremely simple by comparison is closer to GT than pole position in how it works.

 

[RedSuinit]

The only REAL problem I see with the AI is that they will drive into you if you spin out right in front of them, and they seem a tad too shy in some corners. If PD fixes that, I would be 100% satisfied.

 

[Devedander]

The only REAL problem I see with the AI is that they will drive into you if you spin out right in front of them, and they seem a tad too shy in some corners. If PD fixes that, I would be 100% satisfied.

The thing that bothers me most often still (and this is only because I am OCD) is that often if I nose under into a corner, even if I don't have to late break to get the line on them, they will often turn in and smash into me... example classic super carss on amature I am riding my Chevelle into the first corner and get up under the 3rd place AI, I put two wheels off the track even on the inside to give plenty of room and half way through the turn "thump" and the AI car has bounced off of me sometimes two or three times. This guy is driving a Countache and it's not like he doens't have control. My big Chevelle holds it's line reaonably well but I still hate that we have had this collision.

Often this doesn't really mess much up in terms of driving but my OCD hates that it's not clean and I feel it was not clean due to bad AI... I have restarted numeorous races becuase of first corner contact (seems to happen most in the first corner) that wasn't my fault even if it wasn't terribly race damaging...