Why Qualifying could make a comeback.. And why it hasn't yet.
- Thread starter TurismoTalker
- 57 comments
- 2,453 views
- 2,737
- somewhere near Trial Mountain
- oldbusanubis
I imagine it to work similar to GT2 and GT3. It would be allowed for all events, even the Sunday Cup and even custom events too.
You'd be given three laps to post the best time you can in your current car and setup, and the AI would automatically post times capable of the car they're driving using the hardest setting of the chili pepper AI (PS4) and Sophy (PS5). If say you were to change your tune setup your previous qualifying entry would be invalidated and would require another entry. The entry you post would only be valid for the time you're in that event screen. If you were to back out to main menu and re-enter the event your previous time would be erased and you'd have to qualify again.
True, and I agree there would be no challenge since the default non-sophy AI is pretty slow in general. In my mind qualifying would really just be a way to speed up the tedious rabbit-chasing and less about getting a good grid position. For the quicker events in the game it might be a time waste, and would be most useful for championships and the longer races like Sardegna and whatnot. However, I think it should be available regardless of what event you enter. I prefer the feature to be universally available rather than being locked to specific event(s).
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- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
Try a custom race with Sophy, all same cars, weak boost, difficult pro. You will surely change your mind about that.
It would be nice and easy to implement, enjoyable and would give the player the possibility to use cars other than the usual ones that may already be set for other specific race, or not set at all (with Sophy it would be a challenge regardless of the car we use).
Keef
Premium
- 25,282
- Dayton, OH
- GTP_KeefRacer
- GTP Keef
People are figuring all sorts of stuff out about the current Sophy implementation.
Bottom line is that qualifying would be great for high-level events, one-make races, championships, endurance races, etc, but we need competitive AI to make it worthwhile. Whenever we get broad implementation of Sophy, that's when qualifying will make sense, and it should be implemented as soon as that time comes. As well, properly long endurance races will finally make sense and be competitive.
Bottom line is that qualifying would be great for high-level events, one-make races, championships, endurance races, etc, but we need competitive AI to make it worthwhile. Whenever we get broad implementation of Sophy, that's when qualifying will make sense, and it should be implemented as soon as that time comes. As well, properly long endurance races will finally make sense and be competitive.
jrbabbitt
Premium
- 3,286
- Charleston, SC
- TCR_JimyBee
Cannot, I live on a PS4....
- 2,836
- Germany
Current Sophy isnt as interesting as a human comedy race (pace wise) - default AI is faster in this very specific case.
And they have stopped being interesting a long while ago.
So yes, I dont, because I dont play GT. 🤔
- 102
- Italy
Being a player from GT1, I have often missed the qualify session before the race.
As it was in the past I understand that it hasn't so much value.
But now with Sophy and the experience of GTWS races and Time Trials, something could be implemented.
For example, if we have a race of ten cars (our included) why not to have 3 cars running on "gold" time, 3 on "silver" and 3 on "bronze"?
Consider the Time Trials. You race alone against time already set that evaluate your capability.
We should have races with opponents split on these 3 different levels and not just running against cars programmed to lose.
So while we are racing we can "see" which is our value against some different level of drivers.
Then, I run qualify and I fall in the middle of silver driver.
I will start fighting against them and if I am improving I will reach the gold ones and trying to overtake them.
Moreover the AI would also create some variability and make the race not so obvious even if we are good like a "gold" driver...
As it was in the past I understand that it hasn't so much value.
But now with Sophy and the experience of GTWS races and Time Trials, something could be implemented.
For example, if we have a race of ten cars (our included) why not to have 3 cars running on "gold" time, 3 on "silver" and 3 on "bronze"?
Consider the Time Trials. You race alone against time already set that evaluate your capability.
We should have races with opponents split on these 3 different levels and not just running against cars programmed to lose.
So while we are racing we can "see" which is our value against some different level of drivers.
Then, I run qualify and I fall in the middle of silver driver.
I will start fighting against them and if I am improving I will reach the gold ones and trying to overtake them.
Moreover the AI would also create some variability and make the race not so obvious even if we are good like a "gold" driver...
Veinz
Premium
- 5,337
- Ontario
Optional qualifying should come back, especially for the longer races. We all know the ai are slow but players can skip qualy, use a slower car and/or turn up the difficulty if they want more of a challenge. Being forced to start from the back in pretty much every single race is just lazy game design.
- 89,179
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
1. There is none. None at all.
2. The races are like this by design so that slow-to-medium players encounter some cars and have some mini-races and can still place in the top three to "complete" the race, and that fast players encounter all of them and can win the race. Each car you pass is flagged in the bottom-right corner so that people unfamiliar with cars learn more about what they're racing with.
- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
Look, with all due respect, you're pissing me off. You posted in a thread about a game you no longer play, just to create confusion without constructive ideas. You're the kind of player I'd never want to hear your opinion on, simply because you don't want to be constructive in your reasoning. You're talking about things you don't know, displaying unnecessary arrogance, especially about something you don't know, and you said so. If all you can do is slam every line of reasoning, you can safely avoid responding. There's a community here that's sharing different ideas, explaining them, justifying their arguments, and opening up a respectful discussion. I'm sure players like you are the reason PD struggles so much to create a good product, because you only know how to criticize without stating a fact worth hearing. I'll conclude by saying that any future opinions you may have will be worthless in my opinion, so I advise you not to respond.
In races with basic AI. But in races with Sophiy, there's actually competition, or in the chili pepper races. The limits they put us in events are wrong; they're limits set to make us win, and in my opinion, that's extremely wrong because it's boring. I can only do chili pepper races with certain cars because I'm MANDATORY to be 30 seconds behind the leader. Then, if we're talking about the importance of qualifying, in my opinion it's not that important compared to creating shareable races, balancing the earning system in daily races, etc. But I think it's a dynamic that could at least make sense, that's all. In any case, what you said is perfectly the system for almost all the events in the 'career'.
These are the constructive ideas I'm talking about; they're organized into a system that already works, and it would enrich the experience regardless of how much you like it, because it would be easy to implement; everyone would want a new challenge. I'd like your idea, but I'd prefer there to be a different time above gold, like platinum, where only the most skilled players can beat it, like A+, so as to give real value to a player's skill. And yes, I also play GT1 and have never qualified, as I mentioned before, but I feel like Sophia could change the difficulty, at least for a good portion of players. Thanks for the message, love that.
- 89,179
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
The "Chili" rated races are intended to be harder, for more skilled players.
Sophy is currently tacked onto the game rather than an integral part (and not even that for PS4 players).
- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
In fact, even just talking about something not all players have the opportunity to use saddens me a little, but looking to the future, the PS4 will definitely be left out. I expect Sophy to become an integral part of the game in the near future, so I'd like to create topics that can be implemented without much effort, because I see there's a lot of room for improvement. I think that in the "harder" races for less experienced players, throwing yourself into a qualifying round that can help you gain a few positions can be more helpful than not doing it at all.
- 2,836
- Germany
You dont need to pay me respect, you only need to play by the rules.
I dont attack your opinion of why you think qualifying would be good - but I am still waiting for your own input about the initial question and use your thread title to counter it: "why it hasnt" - because "in the current games state, it doesnt make any sense".
All of the other part of the thread title hasnt even been touched by you or any other poster in support of bringing it back.
Well, you are turning onto yourself here:
I said "I raced Sophy, compared that to a human comedy race, and found it frustratingly easier than its default 4chill AI" - but you need to interpret that out of a comment I made before.
That is one of your responses to a system that is already in the game.
Every race has a few AI agents that are faster (gold time), a large middle block (silver) and a few that you will end up lapping quite often (bronze).
Skilled players (a+) usually would prefer to play online, because that is the place to compare their skills with something similar to their own driving (because real competitive Sophy has been manipulated to fit the average player).
You are free to ignore me, but just remember what you are doing then:
feeding your bias with only positive information - which is how social media is working and undermining real conversation.
- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
You have to train Sophy to adapt to your level. I'm not being positive, it's simply a fact. If Sophy has the same car as you, it's impossible for you to give her 2-3 seconds for every lap, and if you start last and give her 3-4 laps, it's IMPOSSIBLE to finish first. I'm not interested in understanding why she's faster; I want to understand what to do by anticipating her evolution clearly and clearly. But then I don't understand why you keep saying it's present in the game. I don't give a damn about the AI's basic races because they're simply rubbish. The fact that I can ALWAYS use a more powerful car would also kill the idea of custom races, qualifying, or any form of racing present in the game, because it's too simple and useless. But if we're talking about races where you can actually have a challenge, like Sophy, which I tried as a DR A player, the discussion is completely different, because Sophy can be competitive. Obviously there's reasoning behind it (Turbo, Slipstream, Line), but regardless of HOW, the challenge is certain. And finally, this isn't positivity, but constructive ideas, which, even if they have no future, can open up horizons for PD. And yours isn't emotional negativity, it's a denial of reality.
- 2,836
- Germany
Sophy does not train "with you as a player".
Sophy is recieving training on a large cluster of consoles and predesigned events.
Then by game update, this new training is pushed out to all PS5 players.
You can also always use a car that has less power (but beware that power isnt equal to performance).
The challenge is called out "rubberbanding" - because in its current state it doesnt drive competitve, neither at the front, nor at the back.
And now back to the initial thoughts:
"why-qualifying-could-make-a-comeback"<- this one is up to those in support of it.
"and-why-it-hasnt-yet" <- has been laid out by me, a few times already, with ever more details.
edit:
there you go.
If this was regular human comedy, I wouldnt have won.
But against Sophy, I almost did (and I didnt because I did a skid on the final turn).
- bop enabled
- Skyline 84 is the worst possible car for the track with its huge turbo lag and gearing
- me starting on p20
- maximum distance between each car (50m)
- 10 laps, because longer would be a win
- pits disabled, Sophy wouldnt know what to do there and lose time
Sophy "tried everything possible" to let me win -> that is not racing, that is outright boring, which is why I said: human comedy is more interesting.
-> Sophy is slower than the 4 chilli AI on the same track in the same cars with the same setup.
But actually: GT7 is not a game that currently has my attention.
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- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
But do you realize that you are basing your entire point on something that is not true?
The fact that Sophy uses rubber-banding or advanced AI is superfluous in this thread. Sophy is capable of doing fast laps, regardless of how. I respect the fact that you might not like it, or think it's inappropriate, but you can't say Sophy isn't competitive; that's just wrong, and it can't be an opinion. Sophy can easily do fast laps that many players wouldn't be able to do with the same car.
- 2,836
- Germany
It could, if it was implemented with the same variables as it was presented with vs the world-star drivers.
But the Sophy that is ingame CANT DO THAT
- 4,207
- London, Ontario
- voodoovaj
You need to pick a lane in this. You don't play, and you know Sophy doesn't improve, because you don't play...got it
So you lost, but if it were regular human comedy, you would still have lost (btw, I won that on my first try, so...take that for what it's worth)
And you lost because of a last minute spin, which would mean, by extension, that Sophy was still close enough to keep things interesting, which was absolutely not my experience with the human comedy at Lago Maggiore. I won by quite the margin, and didn't need to push myself into a spin.
To recap, you don't play GT because it bores you, you haven't tried Sophy in some time and cannot attest to any potential improvement, and your only supporting evidence for Sophy being as bad as the regular AI is losing to it. 👍
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- 2,836
- Germany
Patchnotes are available outside of gaming experience.
I didnt say human comedy is difficult.
I did say: it is more difficult than Sophy - which it is.
And you need to learn to read (with which I mean: understand, otherwise talking to you doesnt contribute anything meaningful to any discussion).
Because you obviously missed the important stuff, even though I put it out right next to the picture, that should give you enough info.
I didnt say human comedy is difficult.
I did say: it is more difficult than Sophy - which it is.
And you need to learn to read (with which I mean: understand, otherwise talking to you doesnt contribute anything meaningful to any discussion).
Because you obviously missed the important stuff, even though I put it out right next to the picture, that should give you enough info.
- 4,980
- United Kingdom
Would qualifying be awesome? Yes?
In the current GT universe is it feasible? No
But I want to point out a really big elephant in the room.
The majority of players find the AI bad or it cheats or rams them off the road. This is not as true as it appears.
The base AI is “ok” in these rabbit race formats it’s not great but competitive and also respects blue flags, again I think a lot of people don’t know how to do that either.
What you’re really asking for deep down is a career mode where you can start to involve yourself in the game. As it is it’s not run and gun.
This is against game AI for the JGTC weekly challenge, a few slow cars but when it gets to the end it’s much more tight.
So chasing the rabbit has its place (artificial qualifying, AKA RNG positioning)
Ultimately in human events it makes sense, against computer I’m not sure it does to me candid.
You’ll either reverse chase the rabbit with flag to flag wins or struggle at the back.
I just don’t think this is a game that suits the mechanic outside of human v human races
In the current GT universe is it feasible? No
But I want to point out a really big elephant in the room.
The majority of players find the AI bad or it cheats or rams them off the road. This is not as true as it appears.
The base AI is “ok” in these rabbit race formats it’s not great but competitive and also respects blue flags, again I think a lot of people don’t know how to do that either.
What you’re really asking for deep down is a career mode where you can start to involve yourself in the game. As it is it’s not run and gun.
This is against game AI for the JGTC weekly challenge, a few slow cars but when it gets to the end it’s much more tight.
So chasing the rabbit has its place (artificial qualifying, AKA RNG positioning)
Ultimately in human events it makes sense, against computer I’m not sure it does to me candid.
You’ll either reverse chase the rabbit with flag to flag wins or struggle at the back.
I just don’t think this is a game that suits the mechanic outside of human v human races
- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
Absolutely yes! But with Sophy's weak boost I'm sure it would have been more difficult, with the hard AI instead, only the last laps are challenging, or only against some cars.
With some improvements, it can make the experience significantly different from an AI created exclusively to help you win. With Sophy, this is not the case.
- 3,326
- United Kingdom
Yeah I mean it's no doubt better, and does make for better AI racing. But it's a lot of effort to set up 'competitvely' for each field and, in my opinion, is still very obviously robotic in how it sticks to its line and views space.
Even then, most of its issues are game design related rather than AI related itself - none of this talk about how to optimise the rubberbanding and speed etc. should even exist at all, and in that sense with current PD at the helm I don't think there will ever be an experience offline that is up to my interests.
- 4,980
- United Kingdom
That’s not true, at least as how Sophy is pitched in all the demos and marketing.
It’s there to provide a more dynamic racing partner, it was some what dumbed down sadly following the beta test. Mostly it will make the racing as close as possible at the sharp end once you are passed it, it’s just artificial smoke and mirrors that hold it back from passing you.
When you really think about Sophy and what it’s capable of in our raced just watch this to know how rubbish we are in reality against it
Edit:
The players have to start taking some responsibility here. The AI is not awful, it’s just slow. That’s a game play choice.
My guess is most people “send it” constantly so the AI feels really clumsy but in reality….its probably the player
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- 33
- Bologna
- JohnMcLuke
I think Polyphony listens to us much more than we think. The fact that they don't have a relationship with the community is because we don't have a shared, reasoned idea to develop something around. If we acted more like a team, I hope that their listening would become mandatory, simply because what we say is in their best interests. As for the rest, I agree with you: although Sophy is very competitive, she follow specific guidelines.
This is a fact. I didn't mean to say it, but it's clear that most people find it easier to insult than to actually take action or express their opinion constructively.
This is a fact too, and that’s why I push so hard on shareable races against Sophy. Because she has so much potential, and almost all players have no idea how good she can be, even in the near future. It certainly took a long time to complete that particular drift lap, but the potential is clear.
