Why tune a 6-speed to a 5-speed?

[NLxAROSA]

I never said the car was faster for EVERYONE, I said it is faster.

Please explain the difference.

I'm talking about the machine as it is, being faster than another machine. Driver abilities completely left out of the equation.

IMO (and others), you can't leave the driver's abilities out of the equation, that's the whole point. Without a driver, the machine will go exactly 0 mph.

Which is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that we need some fast drivers to give it a try and see if it improves their times also.

As stated before, this will prove nothing (since you can't prove that drivers don't matter while using drivers, since their abilities/preferences will influence the outcome ). At most it will prove that tune is faster for exactly those drivers, but it will not decide if the tune is faster in an absolute sense. But I encourage you to post, a good tune is always welcome here.

 

[Stevisiov]

I'm busy as hell at work so I'll give a much more elaborate post later, however I never said the car was faster for EVERYONE, I said it is faster. Which it is. This can be proven with basic math.

Your completely missing the point, well actually you appear to be ignoring it, hiding behind the veil that your mathematics is as good as you think it is.

My point wasn't really arguing against your new gearing is quicker than your previous tune (some gearing setups are better for everyone). My point is your on your high horse, saying some tuners don't understand power/torque gave reasons why your tune was provably quicker based on physics, yet your physics showed a gaping whole, one you still haven't addressed.

Before you criticize others physics knowledge I recommend you brush up on your own.

And furthermore I already said I was going to post the tune tonight, why don't we wait and see if the proof is in the pudding?

There's a lot of miscommunication in this thread really, we're talking about two different angles. I'm talking about the machine as it is, being faster than another machine. Driver abilities completely left out of the equation. Which is why earlier in the thread I mentioned that we need some fast drivers to give it a try and see if it improves their times also.

My second point was that you can't take the driver out of the equation, the driver is to big of variable to disregard.

You can't say this gear ratio is the best for this track, you can't prove it with physics, its too complex. What you can do, is say: 'this driver's best setup is X, he would get the most out of the car with Y gearing. See my point yet?

 

[mPWRD]

As you have stated, YOU are able to go faster with the changes made.
This may not directly transfer to another driver, who is able to drive 4-5 secs a lap quicker with the gear settings you have chosen.
You may find, as you drive faster, the gears that are already with the setup, may be more suited.

A faster car is a faster car... a better driver will be faster with a faster car, just as a lesser driver will be faster with a faster car.

You may find, if you quit acting like nothing could ever be improved, that I may be right, and the tune could be faster.

EDIT: Just because I'm not the fastest driver doesn't mean I don't know how to tune a fast car.

I think you misunderstood Zed here. He means that the changes you made helped your driving style. Different people have different styles, which are better suited to certain cars, tracks, and tunes. No need to get uptight with this... we're all trying to help.

 

[JDigital]

I'm done talking in circles, you know what I mean and I didn't criticize anyone. F it, if you want to be douches about me trying to help the community by offering more tunes, then maybe I shouldn't. F it, you win. I suck, I can't tune for ish, and my tune MUST suck. Trust me, you're not missing much.

Close thread please.

 

[mPWRD]

*Sigh*... Trust me here. I was in your position in a different thread. I understand your frustration. Your tunes probably don't suck. If you want, I can try a couple out for you. Who wins? There is no winner or loser. Now, I actually want to see your tunes. Post them or just PM me.

 

[hamstrings]

JDigital, you've missed the point. It's not that your tunes suck (you brought it up, not the GTP community); it's simply that they're tailored to your driving style. What works for you does not work for everyone else.

I think the problem started when you interpreted zed's comment as a personal insult, even though the other posters clearly saw it as a simple answer to your original question: why would someone else want to tune for five gears when you're going faster with six?

Instead of moving the goal posts and attacking other people's command of physics, you could accept what people have said, even if you don't agree with them. You don't have to be completely and overwhelmingly right to be respected. We're all here to learn how to go faster and to have a good time, not to sink each other. 👍

 

[zed300]

Hey JDigital, I was not trying to "Put you down" dude.

Post your gearing and I'm sure most of us will be only to happy to try it 👍

 

[The Outlaw]

JDigital: Like I said before, your gearing is likely giving you better lap times simply because it is better suited to the cornering/exit speeds you are achieving. If you have a exit speed that is 5-10mph slower than the OPTIMAL/PERFECT exit speed for that particular car and gearing set-up, you're of course going to be using a gearing set-up that isn't as efficient as possible for your exit speeds. This is of course going to have a negative impact on your lap times, as you're likely falling out of the optimal powerband in a few corners. Also, that 5-10mph exit speed disadvantage is carried all the way down the straightaway, although the mph difference diminishes a bit as the car approaches its top speed. If you are using a gearing set-up that is sorted for a optimal or perfect corner exit, you may find it to be a bit long for the speed you are reaching at the end of the straight. Just some food for thought

BTW, mind posting your gearing set-up? I'll give it a try for the hell of it. I'd like to see what type of advantage if any is gained with the 6-speed set-up down the main straight.

 

[Stevisiov]

*Sigh*... Trust me here. I was in your position in a different thread. I understand your frustration. Your tunes probably don't suck. If you want, I can try a couple out for you. Who wins? There is no winner or loser. Now, I actually want to see your tunes. Post them or just PM me.

You were in position in another thread you put yourself in. It's no ones fault but your own. 👍

@JDigital I don't think your tunes suck, I'm not going to pass judgement on them until I have tried it. I disagree with the way you have made your points here, you haven't exactly helped yourself. Stating you have the moral highground and saying your backed up by science doesn't work if you haven't got it right.

Likewise you chose to ignore what people were saying about drivers being the major fact, you can't just expect people to agree with you and then throw a wobbler, when people disagree with you.

For what its worth I think timeattack's made the best job of making things clear.

 

[mPWRD]

You were in position in another thread you put yourself in. It's no ones fault but your own. 👍

You're right, but let's keep that where it is. This thread is about something else. And I maintain my point on that. jDigital, please post your gearing setups or tunes for a certain car.

 

[The Outlaw]

JD: I noticed something with the PP550 Clio (R2/R1 0 power, 88 weight) after examining the gearing and trying to tune in a proper 6-speed set-up as you suggested.

Here's what I found. A 6-speed set-up will ULTIMATELY be slower than a 5-speed gearbox in this particular car. By "ultimately" I mean that with a perfect driver behind the wheel, hitting optimal cornering speeds and exit speeds, the 6-speed set-up will put in a much slower lap time. I would say roughly .5- 1 second if I had to make an approximation Why?...There is an issue because you cannot adjust the 2nd gear to make it long enough to bring it within optimal range for the two slowest corners of Suzuka (Hairpin and Chicane). In order to bring the the 2nd gear up to a high enough speed or ratio (~70mph for the slow corners with optimal exit speed), you end up sacrificing your 6th gear ratio way too much. To get the 2nd gear to reach an optimal 70mph for the slow corners with a 6-speed gearbox, you are restricted to setting your 6th gear to the minimum of 165mph...which is WAY to tall to be effective. You need something more around 140-150mph for your top gear to be anwhere near effective...otherwise you're losing too much RWTQ.

You probably found your 6-speed set-up to be quicker because you had somewhat slow exit speeds at the Hairpin and Chicane, which the 6-speed gearbox helped as it gave you more snap/RWTQ in your short 2nd gear to recover from your loss of momentum.

 

[Timppaq]

JD: I noticed something with the PP550 Clio (R2/R1 0 power, 88 weight) after examining the gearing and trying to tune in a proper 6-speed set-up as you suggested.

Here's what I found. A 6-speed set-up will ULTIMATELY be slower than a 5-speed gearbox in this particular car. By "ultimately" I mean that with a perfect driver behind the wheel, hitting optimal cornering speeds and exit speeds, the 6-speed set-up will put in a much slower lap time. I would say roughly .5- 1 second if I had to make an approximation Why?...There is an issue because you cannot adjust the 2nd gear to make it long enough to bring it within optimal range for the two slowest corners of Suzuka (Hairpin and Chicane). In order to bring the the 2nd gear up to a high enough speed or ratio (~70mph for the slow corners with optimal exit speed), you end up sacrificing your 6th gear ratio way too much. To get the 2nd gear to reach an optimal 70mph for the slow corners with a 6-speed gearbox, you are restricted to setting your 6th gear to the minimum of 165mph...which is WAY to tall to be effective.

You probably found your 6-speed set-up to be quicker because you had somewhat slow exit speeds at the Hairpin and Chicane, which the 6-speed gearbox helped as it gave you more snap/RWTQ in your short 2nd gear to recover from your loss of momentum.

👍 end of story.



.

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

All this bickering is making me want to get back into tuning after my hiatus.

 

[arora]

As a driver not concerned with tuning a car to make others happy so it's about the max that works for me. This is what I do... I don't care at all about torque or hp instead I care about 2 things more important to me.

Can I controll the cars wheel spin? and am I in a good power range gliding through the corners without needing to shift in the middle or bog down?

Thats it for me, sometimes I drive a 3 speed sometimes 6.

 

[NLxAROSA]

F it, if you want to be douches about me trying to help the community by offering more tunes, then maybe I shouldn't. F it, you win. I suck, I can't tune for ish, and my tune MUST suck. Trust me, you're not missing much.

Close thread please.

Now you're acting like a spoilt child that did not get it's way. Nobody said anything about the quality of your tunes, as a matter of fact, we wanted you to post it, since it appears to be doing good for you. 👍 But you were making blanket statements about it that, seriously, you can't prove. And THAT was the point. Nobody is dissing your tunes and saying you're ****.

The only one being a douche about it is you. 👎 Now post the darn tune, I'm sure people would love to try it. Don't take this personal because it's not meant that way (not by me at least).

As a driver not concerned with tuning a car to make others happy so it's about the max that works for me. This is what I do... I don't care at all about torque or hp instead I care about 2 things more important to me.

Can I controll the cars wheel spin? and am I in a good power range gliding through the corners without needing to shift in the middle or bog down?

Thats it for me, sometimes I drive a 3 speed sometimes 6.

Exactly. This is the method that works best for you, and maybe for lots of other people too. 👍 I said it many times before and I'll say it again: there is no right or wrong when tuning (contrary to what some believe).

 

[EERS4YEARS]

550pp races are setup to limit the need for tuning. All this bickering, and no one has said anything about in a Race situation. The 6-speed will definately be better with the crazy drafts you get, even at 70mph just after the chicane and hairpin. Its all relative, race setup vs. freerun/qualifying setup. The one tune I found on GTPlanet has a perfect gearbox... for racing.

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

550pp races are setup to limit the need for tuning. All this bickering, and no one has said anything about in a Race situation. The 6-speed will definately be better with the crazy drafts you get, even at 70mph just after the chicane and hairpin. Its all relative, race setup vs. freerun/qualifying setup. The one tune I found on GTPlanet has a perfect gearbox... for racing.

Many times, while fighting to achieve a draft, the worst thing in the world is the need to shift. Sometimes, that tiny gap in acceleration is enough to throw out the possibility of a successful draft. Even if your acceleration isn't absolutely optimal w.r.t. the dyno graph, staying in gear is many times the better option.

I, as the other people in this thread, believe first and foremost that gearing is first a function of the race track, then a function of engine attitude, then a function of driving style. But none are exclusive, and all three must be satisfied. Due to the variability in driving styles, there are many successful gearing setups for all cars, on all tracks.

Think about this. When I tune my gears, it is a several hour long process. I may end up changing gears by 1 or 2 mph changes at a time. But when it is all said and done, and I am happy with it, I go check out the gearing done from the other garages, on the same car and same track. And wouldn't ya know, they are completely different. Even if they have the same number of active gears, somehow, and it still puzzles me, they end up with vastly different ratios. But I know for a fact that behind every posted gearing setup, there are many many fast drivers, who swear by each. It's taught me that there is absolutely no 'optimal' gearing. So making such black and white accusations on the subject of gearing, is, IMO, completely pointless. Chances are, that tuning by your own beliefs and style, given that you have the ability to do so, will yield faster, and more comfortable lap times for you, and if you tune in the right way, you will most likely end with a setup that speaks to you and you alone.

 

[The Outlaw]

550pp races are setup to limit the need for tuning. All this bickering, and no one has said anything about in a Race situation. The 6-speed will definately be better with the crazy drafts you get, even at 70mph just after the chicane and hairpin. Its all relative, race setup vs. freerun/qualifying setup. The one tune I found on GTPlanet has a perfect gearbox... for racing.

The 6-speed set-up is still worse in racing conditions unfortunately. Having a 6th gear that does at the minimum 160-165mph (while still having an efficient 2nd gear) is far from efficient with the power the Clio makes on R1's, even when getting a giant draft down the main straight. If you are on S3's you may get a benefit from having the 6th speed, as you would be able to take weight off and increase power over the R1's set-up. But we are on the subject of R tires on the Clio.

 

[z06fun]

Many times, while fighting to achieve a draft, the worst thing in the world is the need to shift. Sometimes, that tiny gap in acceleration is enough to throw out the possibility of a successful draft. Even if your acceleration isn't absolutely optimal w.r.t. the dyno graph, staying in gear is many times the better option.

I, as the other people in this thread, believe first and foremost that gearing is first a function of the race track, then a function of engine attitude, then a function of driving style. But none are exclusive, and all three must be satisfied. Due to the variability in driving styles, there are many successful gearing setups for all cars, on all tracks.

Think about this. When I tune my gears, it is a several hour long process. I may end up changing gears by 1 or 2 mph changes at a time. But when it is all said and done, and I am happy with it, I go check out the gearing done from the other garages, on the same car and same track. And wouldn't ya know, they are completely different. Even if they have the same number of active gears, somehow, and it still puzzles me, they end up with vastly different ratios. But I know for a fact that behind every posted gearing setup, there are many many fast drivers, who swear by each. It's taught me that there is absolutely no 'optimal' gearing. So making such black and white accusations on the subject of gearing, is, IMO, completely pointless. Chances are, that tuning by your own beliefs and style, given that you have the ability to do so, will yield faster, and more comfortable lap times for you, and if you tune in the right way, you will most likely end with a setup that speaks to you and you alone.

I have to correct one thing, there is such thing as optimal gearing, it would let you keep the engine at its horsepower peak all the time But in reality that would take a CVT tranny or LOTS of gears & shifting lol.
But in all seriousness, it has always really bothered me how limited we are in gear ratio selections in both GT4 and GT5P. In real life this is not really the case at all. Really wish they would fix this so I could make all 6 gears useful when needed. For cars with a very narrow power band and fast shifting (or G25), being able to adjust all gears without restriction is VERY beneficial.

 

[EERS4YEARS]

I used the TZT gearing!! lol And I use 6th gear, not in freerun though. Thats why I said its great... for racing. You guys jump to conclusions too fast. Im fairly certain we all agree, but someone has to be wrong.

 

[GTP_Tzayed]

I used the TZT gearing!! lol And I use 6th gear, not in freerun though. Thats why I said its great... for racing. You guys jump to conclusions too fast. Im fairly certain we all agree, but someone has to be wrong.

Haha, well then I guess thats a good thing. But I still stand behind what I said, it's just that I had a pretty non-specific scenario to judge. Which only emphasizes my points. Different cars, different tracks, different drivers, different gearing. I guess for the two of us, however, they are pretty damn close if you found it perfect.

 

[Paulie]

What Hotrails17 said. Add to that that some of the cars have a really low gear ratio in the 6th gear since it's an 'economy' gear, meaning it will accelerate like crap in 6th. And some of the high-powered cars have so much power you'll have terrible amounts of wheelspin if you use all the gears (even if you make them as long as possible).

Yep, wheelspin is often a huge factor in it.👍

 

[Dragonistic]

Anyone remember the GTLM HSR800 Garage Showdown? Drivers present at that event will know I (by some miracle, mostly because Timppaq got bogged down in traffic) won the most races in that event using another tuners car which I was driving at slower laptime then my own set up which was using a 4 speed set up. Now of course my own car was tailored to me but I tried with 6, 5 and 4 speed gearboxs and found the most I could get out of myself was using a 4 speed gearbox.

I also geared a Viper/T 650PP S3s HSR car to a 4 speed yesterday to get ultimate stability for newer drivers, using the same suspension as an older 750 R3s car. It was previously a 5 speed gearbox when it was a 750PP Suzuka car, but I often ended up short shifting to keep the wheelspin down and use the Vipers massive torque in the lower range to drive me out of the corner much more smoothly and quickly. So when I re-set the car for HSR, knowing there's not much range in the different speeds for each corner, I took out another gear to make life even easier.

It could almost certainly be made into a faster car, but I wanted to turn an already stable 750 race car across to 650 without turning it into a monster because of the much less grippy tyre and removal of downforce. I did this by just changing the gearing to keep people away from the red line, the suspension isn't even tuned originally on that track but the gearing has made it an easy ride without any suspension adjustments.