Wide = Faster?

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sicbeing

sicbeing

1,103
Cribanox
I have a few questions about tuning and manual gear shifting

Its been a while since ive played GT4, but i have my own copy of GT3, so maybe itll help me relate.

I once dragged on the LA Strip with a pretty suped up SKyline GTr II or something to that effect. I tried it 10 times, 5 with sport - sided gear ratios (more frequent shifting?) and then 5 times with wider ratios (less frequent shifting), and I tally'd up all the times and then got the average for both. (all auto shifting)

To my surprise, I was faster with the Wider settings :confused:

There were a few things to keep in my mind, this is what from *I* know:

1) More shifting takes up more time, its little but it adds up
2) Was pretty sure that in a Turbo car, more time spent in the higher RPMs meant for more acceleration
3) I was under the assumption, I dunno why, that a "more frequent shifting / a lesser max MPH" meant for more accel, to kind of make up for the loss in max speed. I guess auto modellista taught me that :nervous:

I guess my question is that, why would anyone ever have a lower max speed than a higher one? So far it doesn't make sense to me.




Next question has to do with Manul vs. Auto shifting

In these games, from what *I* have seen, or at least assumed, that on an auto setting, the gear always changes right at the redline

Now if that is the case, why would anyone ever want to have manual shifting on? Unless you can do it as good as the auto can?

Now plz tell me I am missing something from this conclusion of mine

(I also know that you wanna leave turns at a higher RPMs and auto featre doesnt downshift correctly, or at least how you should, but doesnt the lost "inbetween gears" time add up? wouldnt you be better off staying in the higher gear for the extra second rather than shifting an extra 2-4 times? It might be different if someone would realise how many of us want a H-Shift on our 150 dollar steering wheels rather than "Up" and "down")
 
well not all tracks willl let you reach your max speed so your lower the gear ratios to suit the track and other conditions, i dont know what happened in your case probly a one off and you had it setup as to not match the power band
and to answer your other question, everyone knows that manual gears is faster
 
sicbeing
I once dragged on the LA Strip with a pretty suped up SKyline GTr II or something to that effect. I tried it 10 times, 5 with sport - sided gear ratios (more frequent shifting?) and then 5 times with wider ratios (less frequent shifting), and I tally'd up all the times and then got the average for both. (all auto shifting)

To my surprise, I was faster with the Wider settings :confused:

There were a few things to keep in my mind, this is what from *I* know:

1) More shifting takes up more time, its little but it adds up
2) Was pretty sure that in a Turbo car, more time spent in the higher RPMs meant for more acceleration
3) I was under the assumption, I dunno why, that a "more frequent shifting / a lesser max MPH" meant for more accel, to kind of make up for the loss in max speed. I guess auto modellista taught me that :nervous:


I guess my question is that, why would anyone ever have a lower max speed than a higher one? So far it doesn't make sense to me.
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Well, first of all, shorter gear ratios are usually best for racing in circuit courses, not drags... But it really depends on the car... if you're racing with a Skyline GTR, then I'm sure wider gear ratios aren't going to hurt it that much, since it's accel is amazing... now say you use wide gear ratios for something like a miata... wider gear ratios are going to end up slowing you down, as the miata can't get to it's top speed, proportially speaking, as fast as the Skyline.



sicbeing
Next question has to do with Manul vs. Auto shifting

In these games, from what *I* have seen, or at least assumed, that on an auto setting, the gear always changes right at the redline

Now if that is the case, why would anyone ever want to have manual shifting on? Unless you can do it as good as the auto can?

Now plz tell me I am missing something from this conclusion of mine

(I also know that you wanna leave turns at a higher RPMs and auto featre doesnt downshift correctly, or at least how you should, but doesnt the lost "inbetween gears" time add up? wouldnt you be better off staying in the higher gear for the extra second rather than shifting an extra 2-4 times? It might be different if someone would realise how many of us want a H-Shift on our 150 dollar steering wheels rather than "Up" and "down")
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This is an interesting question... auto shifting might help you in drag racing if you're not sure of where to shift... but it might hurt you overall... sometimes it's best to upshift early while the car is in it's optimum powerband.

Manual shifting will help you in cornering (auto shifting isn't too smart sometimes) and it'll make you a better driver to use it consistently. It isn't very hard at all to shift at redline once you get into a habit of watching your RPMs while you're racing. I strongly suggest you try using a manual transmission, it'll help you grow as a Gran Turismo player, and it'll shorten your lap times once you know how to use it correctly, i guarantee it!
 
I know that the manual shifting prolly would help me, but my question is, how? if auto does do it at the exact moment u need to, why manual shift? unless of corse like i said before its to downshoft more correctly.
 
you choose when to shift gear at the optimum moment, the auto will shift gear at a certain rpm every time but you can hold it in gear with r2 so auto is good
 
Lower gear ratios allow more power to the ground, but shifting frequently can severly hurt as their is no power goin to the wheels at all. It is a matter of weighing the benifits of a lower ratio to the benifits. The more power you are making, the wider you can make the gears, allowing you to reduce the amount of time spent shifting.
 
manual gearing:

  • you can hold a gear thru a corner for ompimum speed thru the corner and maximum acceleration out of the corner
  • manual gearing can also help with braking. doing this means you dont have to go as hard on the brakes and this in turn means elss quirming of the cr under braking
  • there are also times where you want your "foot" to the floor but dont want to hit the red line...
  • you can also jam you "foot" to the floor in say 3rd in a high powered car with out the fear of changing down, the wheels spining and losing traction and therefore under or over steering

hop this helps :)
 
I've discovered that a few of my cars (mostly older, road cars) benefit from shifting up before the redline. Take a look at the power/torque graph in the settings screen, and [because only the minimum and maximum rpms are shown] work out approximately where the power band is, and drive accordingly.

Auto might be alright if it was more similar to a real auto transmission with kickdown, etc (but then even that wouldn't be too useful for races, only realism), but for now it's manual all the way!
 
ving
manual gearing:

  • you can hold a gear thru a corner for ompimum speed thru the corner and maximum acceleration out of the corner
  • manual gearing can also help with braking. doing this means you dont have to go as hard on the brakes and this in turn means elss quirming of the cr under braking
  • there are also times where you want your "foot" to the floor but dont want to hit the red line...
  • you can also jam you "foot" to the floor in say 3rd in a high powered car with out the fear of changing down, the wheels spining and losing traction and therefore under or over steering

hop this helps :)
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well said.
 
sicbeing
I know that the manual shifting prolly would help me, but my question is, how? if auto does do it at the exact moment u need to, why manual shift? unless of corse like i said before its to downshoft more correctly.
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The redline is not the best time to change gears. The rpm where torque begins to drop significantly is when it is best to change gears.
 
gumpy
The redline is not the best time to change gears. The rpm where torque begins to drop significantly is when it is best to change gears.
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that is wrong. It's just before the HP starts to drop off that you need to upshift.

Nothing bothers me more that people who say HP isn't real. Of course it's real. yeah, I know about the whole "HP = torque x RPM / 5250." it's called a formula, and why would somebody come up with a formula to measure a force that dosent exsist? Face it, 200 lb/ft of torque at 4000 rpm is less powerfull than 180 lb/ft at 6000 rpm. you can feel it, and the numbers tell the story. Thats, 152 hp at 4000 rpm, and 205 hp at 6000 rpm.

Ok, I'm done.
 
inferno
that is wrong. It's just before the HP starts to drop off that you need to upshift.

Nothing bothers me more that people who say HP isn't real. Of course it's real. yeah, I know about the whole "HP = torque x RPM / 5250." it's called a formula, and why would somebody come up with a formula to measure a force that dosent exsist? Face it, 200 lb/ft of torque at 4000 rpm is less powerfull than 180 lb/ft at 6000 rpm. you can feel it, and the numbers tell the story. Thats, 152 hp at 4000 rpm, and 205 hp at 6000 rpm. I'm done.
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ok. I got torque and hp mixed up for the purposes of my comment. My main point is that there is an rpm range just before the redline that is not that useful if you are after the perfect change up point. The bigger the gap the more you can gain from manual gears.
 
inferno
Just for the record Grumpy, My rant wasen't directed at you specificaly. It's a touchy subject you know. :(
I want my HP. :(
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that's cool.

Having said all of this I still use auto through laziness.
 
This whole thing is fairly obvious.

For the 1/4 mile with most cars with decent acceleration their rate of acceleration drops off in 4th gear significantly.

As a general rule here are the gears in their optimal lengths relative to their stock lengths for a powerful car with good acceleration.

Leaving the Auto and final in place... this is where to move the markers for each individual gear.

Gears-
|2-3---1-------------------------Middle-----------4--------5----6--7--|

-1 is a fast gear... but if you make it too long, your take-off will suffer.
-2 is the fastest gear
-3 is very fast as well... can start to drop off in acceleration at the end, may want to move it a little to the right of where I have it, depending on the car.
-In gear 4 your acceleration usually stagnates... and while you're accelerating slowly, you could be accelerating faster to a slightly lower speed.
-The 5th gear is almost vestigial, only used in major straights... keep it short or you won't get to use much of it at all.
-6th and 7th gear take the role of 4th and 5th in cars that have them... 4th and 5th just fall between it all.


Even on tracks with nice straight aways I keep my acceleration a priority... if you want your B-Spec passing cars like crazy... it's out of the turns, not the straight-aways.
Acceleration is under-rated and is far more useful than some ridiculous max speed you won't ever reach... or even if you do, your acceleration out of turns is so horrendous that you do far worse.
 
sicbeing
In these games, from what *I* have seen, or at least assumed, that on an auto setting, the gear always changes right at the redline

Now if that is the case, why would anyone ever want to have manual shifting on? Unless you can do it as good as the auto can?
Click to expand...

I just had to interject my comment on this since it looks like no one brought it up yet. The engine balancing upgrade allows your engine to rev slightly higher, although it is not indicated on the Tachometer. Ive noticed on some cars it is helpful to be able to rev up the additional 500-1000 rpm, but others there is a drop off in the accelleration. Certainly is useful for drifting though :D
 
ving
but the prize cars in gt3 are random! :dopey:
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Yeah that is why it took me so #$^@% long to win them all.

And in GT4 a couple of the cars are from enduros. The 2 I am currently trying to get are the FTOs from Tokyo and RX7s from Roadster.

I won't get them all like I did in GT3 though. I have selected some models to win all of.

Back on topic I struggle to remember where I need to brake and turn so I find auto is the way to go. I only have 9x3 lap missions and 2x1 lap missions to go for 100% so far all has been with auto. I will probably use manual for some license tests.
 
hang on... you have just about finished all the races but havent finished the licence tests?

oh and is there randomosity in gt4? I havent encountered it yet. but then i am only at 15% :D
 
ving
hang on... you have just about finished all the races but havent finished the licence tests?

oh and is there randomosity in gt4? I havent encountered it yet. but then i am only at 15% :D
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I have at least bronzed every test. I will probably need to use manual to gold some of them.

Randomosity is at full swing. I have done the Tokyo endurance about 20 times to win 7 colours of the FTO (I still only have 6). I used the money to get some of the buy only Le Mans cars. At one stage I thought maybe your winning margin might determine your prize but quickly regained my sanity.

I also won the same colour RX7 from the Roadster endurance for the first 3 times I did it but since then have won a few different.
 
why do you torture yourself so Mr Gumpy?
just be happy you have the cars and dont worry that the puce one is not in your garage...

well thats what i say anyhow :P
 
ving
why do you torture yourself so Mr Gumpy?
just be happy you have the cars and dont worry that the puce one is not in your garage...

well thats what i say anyhow :P
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I am ok it is B-Spec Bob with all the hassle.

I am A-speccing a modified SL 600 (tried to make it similar to the Mission 34 car) in the SL series to win the 1954 Coupes. Once I feel I am used to that car I will take the SLR to the Nurb and see how I go. I don't want to drive the SLR around the Nurb for no immediate gain but I know I will have to at some stage.

I bought 1 of each Fiat the other night - haven't driven them yet though.
 

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