Will PD have to make 2 seperate games, to satisfy most of us now?

[SuperCobraJet]

For a while now, I have been progressively coming to the two game conclusion, and that is what it will take to satisfy the growing diverse segments of players wants.

I'm under no illusion, that this would happen of course. From a reality standpoint, its strictly speculative fantasy.
PD appears hard pressed to get out one game in a timely fashion, much less two.

However, with the advent of the PS3 and now PS4, the vastly increased capability of next gens, seems to have fractionalized the wants and demands of players into an ever increasing list of variables.

That, I believe is a valid factor that will likely continue.
Also in that is a trend of, "one size fits all" becoming less and less likely to really please the majority of players.
I believe that has become evident with GT5 and GT6.

For the sake of simplicity and brevity I will attempt to divide us into two groups, based on just my
observations at GTP since the release of GT5. Of course actually how we may fall individually on any given point or group of points may vary.

On one side there seems to be the "online, new stuff, premium crowd" with focus on all new and different type of game.
And on the other seems to be the "single player or maybe nostalgic crowd" with a deep appreciation for the previous content and features of GT games 1-4. Not necessarily opposed to the new, but not at the expense of great features from the old.

Hence the two game concept, one maybe more GT1-4ish, and one more new based entirely.
Anyway, I just can't imagine both of these concepts coming together in any one game in the future, particularly in light of GT5 and 6.

 

[Tenacious D]

Jeepers, this isn't what I expected at all.

This kind of thing isn't where the "Two Gran Turismos" advocates tend to come from. What you mentioned is the usual Polyphony Digital trend, to take the old and stir in some new, and while the Premium content does seem to bog PD down, you couldn't just split GT into Gran Turismo Classic and Gran Turismo Premium, because that would take even longer and anger both sides. If you mean GT Classic and GT Pro, that's more like what I expected.

But still, assuming you mean a more PC sim-like game, like a Project CARS with more cars, I still think this would work best in GT7 as one game with three modes of play: Arcade, Classic GT, and FIA GT Pro. A separate GT Pro game would be really interesting, but I'd still rather see it as a section in GT7 itself.

If I'm completely missing what you're driving at - badum bum - I'll wait to see what others contribute before I chime in again.

 

[swynder]

Please don´t... PD can barely keep up with a game, imagine with 2...

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Jeepers, this isn't what I expected at all.

From a reality standpoint, like I said its not going to happen.
So in essence, it is more just a simple question than anything else.

This kind of thing isn't where the "Two Gran Turismos" advocates tend to come from. What you mentioned is the usual Polyphony Digital trend, to take the old and stir in some new, and while the Premium content does seem to bog PD down, you couldn't just split GT into Gran Turismo Classic and Gran Turismo Premium, because that would take even longer and anger both sides. If you mean GT Classic and GT Pro, that's more like what I expected.

I don't know that I'm really advocating it as much as just pointing it out.

But still, assuming you mean a more PC sim-like game, like a Project CARS with more cars, I still think this would work best in GT7 as one game with three modes of play: Arcade, Classic GT, and FIA GT Pro. A separate GT Pro game would be really interesting, but I'd still rather see it as a section in GT7 itself.

A two or three section game would be better, but at this point I don't see much chance of that happening either.

 

[AudiMan2011]

PD only need to include one thing to satisfy both the hardcore diehards and the casuals:

OPTIONS

More options are much simpler than making 2 separate games.

 

[Dark Motor]

I think GT is progressively more online oriented and that type of content is supplanting traditional content. New features are introduced in one title only to be replaced with something newer in the next title. Career Mode and Arcade Mode are getting smaller and taking a back seat to Online Races and GT Academy. Good bye grass roots racing, hello big balling. BTW, look for GT6 Online services to be dropped soon as GT7 comes out. All part of the new normal.

 

[Johnnypenso]

PD only need to include one thing to satisfy both the hardcore diehards and the casuals:

OPTIONS

More options are much simpler than making 2 separate games.

Exactly. We don't even need different modes within the game, what we have now is sufficient. Online, Career Mode and Arcade Mode. An online career mode would be a nice addition but highly unlikely IMO. After fixing the core elements of the game, jus give us options upon options instead of relatively fixed paths through the game.

 

[mr_serious]

Exactly. We don't even need different modes within the game, what we have now is sufficient. Online, Career Mode and Arcade Mode. An online career mode would be a nice addition but highly unlikely IMO. After fixing the core elements of the game, jus give us options upon options instead of relatively fixed paths through the game.

THIS! .. Oh and better AI

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I think GT is progressively more online oriented and that type of content is supplanting traditional content. New features are introduced in one title only to be replaced with something newer in the next title. Career Mode and Arcade Mode are getting smaller and taking a back seat to Online Races and GT Academy. Good bye grass roots racing, hello big balling. BTW, look for GT6 Online services to be dropped soon as GT7 comes out. All part of the new normal.

Your post points out the trend that I see as well, and makes the case for a separate game, as the only way to meet the desires of a still large group of players at GTP, as well as worldwide.

I'm hesitant to mention this one, but IMO, the sales of GT6 also indicate this.

 

[FS7]

PD could please most players by simply making all options available in all game modes.
Things like standing starts, mechanical damage, fuel/tyre wear, penalties, etc, should be available in all game modes, not just online. That doesn't require a new game, that's something that could be added to GT6 in an update.

 

[Griffith500]

Your post points out the trend that I see as well, and makes the case for a separate game, as the only way to meet the desires of a still large group of players at GTP, as well as worldwide.

I'm hesitant to mention this one, but IMO, the sales of GT6 also indicate this.

The other option is just to let market forces fill in the gap that motivated this thread.

Then there really will be two separate games. Maybe more.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

PD could please most players by simply making all options available in all game modes.
Things like standing starts, mechanical damage, fuel/tyre wear, penalties, etc, should be available in all game modes, not just online. That doesn't require a new game, that's something that could be added to GT6 in an update.

Well, while all that sounds great, as said at this point, there is no indication that its going to happen.
PD, appears quite content to stick with, as Dark Motor described above, the new status quo.

The other option is just to let market forces fill in the gap that motivated this thread.

Then there really will be two separate games. Maybe more.

This is a possibilty at some point in time, however I see no one on the horizon to fill those shoes.
Like PD, Turn 10 appears content as well, with the new status quo.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is a possibilty at some point in time, however I see no one on the horizon to fill those shoes.
Like PD, Turn 10 appears content as well, with the new status quo.

DriveClub for the arcade racing side of things with great visuals and Project Cars for the sim racing side of things.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

DriveClub for the arcade racing side of things with great visuals and Project Cars for the sim racing side of things.

Maybe they will be great, and maybe not.
We shall see, but I'm not holding my breath.
Perhaps either way, they will sell comparably to GT6 and send a message to PD.

 

[Griffith500]

Nobody will just wade in and steal the show, granted; it'll take time and foresight, and plenty of intermediate games to get a foothold and work out the kinks (plus plenty of patience and understanding from us lot).

The only real way to come out of that with a quality product or two is to focus on delivering a tight, well balanced experience (according to a particular "taste" that is necessarily not so well represented in existing games), not just on stealing market share; although that's perhaps something of a contradiction.

If they sell "as well as" GT (which they certainly needn't do to do well in absolute terms), whilst inevitably being a different experience from it, the message will be that there's room for everyone's tastes, as long as that's spread across several products borne from different teams, and not just shoehorned into one mass of beigeness.

In order for that to be most beneficial to us as gamers, i.e. so that we choose the right game for our tastes, developers will need to be honest and transparent about what their games do, which will require a lot of patience and understanding from us lot...

 

[Tenacious D]

PD only need to include one thing to satisfy both the hardcore diehards and the casuals:

OPTIONS

More options are much simpler than making 2 separate games.

Just to bounce off of this, a handful of user features would make GT7 playable for the foreseeable future.

• Course Maker
• Event Maker
• Race Mod
• Livery Editor

And I know that giving us the quadfecta would require a lot of work. However, the first three have been in Gran Turismo games before: the Course Maker and Race Mod both in GT5; the Event Maker, complete with prize money in GT2, as well as the most substantial Race Mod system with alternate liveries. And the Livery Editor has proven to be the third most popular requested feature on the Kaz Q&A board. Plus, we're getting CM II soon.

In addition, the online system has been discussed by Kaz as featuring a Club and League Builder tool of some kind, along with a pretty substantial Event Maker of its own, allowing both PD and hosts to set up track day-like cruising, single racing events, all the way up to racing series with championships. And I'm hoping to see enough races to be considered a mini-racing season. We've asked for every feature of racing under the sun for it, down to flag marshals, and with the FIA partnership in the works, we may well get them!

With the sheer wealth of sports cars and supercars in GT6 already, plus whatever is coming in GT7, there is plenty of car fodder for race modding and livery painting. I can't see online league creation support without some kind of Livery Editor at least, allowing users to create their own racing identities, as well as league based trinkets like their own number plaque designs, and hopefully window banners too. Having Race Mod along with it would open up league creation possibilities without end.

But that's all online. For those of us like me who prefer offline racing, the four features I listed would allow us to create events until we ran out of ideas. As mentioned above, the bot AI would have to be improved, and a better damage build would be nice to throw into the mix. But those aside, Race Mod and the Livery Editor would allow us to create our own race cars suited to whatever league we wanted, short of LMPs and Formula GT. The Event Maker would allow us to chain together events with the rules of our choice, up to a racing season in length. The Course Maker would enable us to add additional tracks to those in GT already, providing some nice variety. Then there's nothing left but to hit that X button and enter them to race till we're starving or sleep deprived.

 

[Johnnypenso]

snip...(plus plenty of patience and understanding from us lot).

In order for that to be most beneficial to us as gamers, i.e. so that we choose the right game for our tastes, developers will need to be honest and transparent about what their games do, which will require a lot of patience and understanding from us lot...

What is this, "patience and understanding" you speak of?

 

[CBH]

Why do we need 2 separate games for, you are never going to satisfy people even if you had 3 separate games.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why do we need 2 separate games for, you are never going to satisfy people even if you had 3 separate games.

What if we had 4 games?

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

No. In fact, that may have a negative effect on overall sales - releasing two separate games at the same time would probably be seen as milking GT for more money and turn gamers off. The way I see it, the way the series is going, they have a firm base - they just need to utilize it to its full potential, which we haven't seen yet.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

What is this, "patience and understanding" you speak of?

I think that is french for, blind gullibility.

"honest and transparent"
Surely he jests.
Or perhaps he works in the White House.

 

[CBH]

What if we had 4 games?

But it will still not satisfy people but the only way to satisfy people is make every player to develop their own racing game and that will be better and everyone can have what they want in the game.

 

[Dark Motor]

I think they peaked with GT5, it had a good blend of old and new, even if the online racing could have been better executed without sacrificing some of the offline fun at the same time. It's probably the closest they will ever come to satisfying a large majority of players. I wish they wouldn't keep dropping good cars and tracks from the series. I don't miss the tedious used car dealership though. We don't want the best of everything, just the best of the first 5 titles and some gradual improvement in other areas that have needed it for a while. Simple right? No need for 2 separate games.

 

[TokoTurismo]

But it will still not satisfy people but the only way to satisfy people is make every player to develop their own racing game and that will be better and everyone can have what they want in the game.

No, no and NO. In order for PD to satisty all its fans is if they actually take feedback from them, like reading feedback founded in fourms, not just guessing what WILL satisfy them. This is basically what EVERY developer does nowadays. Look at GRID Autosport. I'm sure many fans are satisfied with GAS because CM read their feedback.

 

[CBH]

I think they peaked with GT5, it had a good blend of old and new, even if the online racing could have been better executed without sacrificing some of the offline fun at the same time. It's probably the closest they will ever come to satisfying a large majority of players. I wish they wouldn't keep dropping good cars and tracks from the series. I don't miss the tedious used car dealership though. We don't want the best of everything, just the best of the first 5 titles and some gradual improvement in other areas that have needed it for a while. Simple right? No need for 2 separate games.

If GT6 had the same career mode as GT5 with new cars & tracks well GT6 would have been in a lot better shape now. But I have been saying this for many months now that GT6 should have never come out on PS3 but I still played it and enjoyed it.
Hey Dark Motor GT5 was the most enjoyable racing game I have ever played in the whole GT series.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Why do we need 2 separate games for, you are never going to satisfy people even if you had 3 separate games.

You are never going to satisfy everyone or even some, with any game or number of games.

Thats not the issue.

Satisfying most of the two groups I depicted in the OP, is the objective.

According to most of the posts thus far, even though they vote no, the proposed solution is basically two games within one game, or an optioned feature game that could effectively do the same thing.

The problem here is this:

The established trend is basically less, not more of what would be required.
For example, the first thing we find out about GT7 is PD, still will not have all the cars up to premium.
So, through one complete gen cycle(PS3) and now we are into the next(PS4) many of the cars will still be PS2 models.

In light of that one factor alone, the reality is, the grandiose features required, are not likely to become a reality until possibly GT8, or beyond.

 

[Griffith500]

I think that is french for, blind gullibility.

"honest and transparent"
Surely he jests.
Or perhaps he works in the White House.

It's been very successful for indie developers trying to establish their own market, effectively.

If you tell players precisely what your game does and precisely what it's not trying to be, there will be less ill will from people who were enticed to buy it based on the usual marketing schtick, wherein the golden rule generally seems to be "never tell the truth about the product; spin, spin, spin!". Also, you find your market pretty easily; usual feature descriptions are laden with ambiguous terminology that would, for example, attract both the sim and arcade crowd regardless of what the game actually drives like.

I don't know how that honesty would scale to larger projects or more established "brands", but I expect it'd be quite a shock, and would give lots of ammunition to any naysayers; which is why I mentioned patience and understanding on our part. It may also impact heavily on pre-orders and day-one sales.

You are never going to satisfy everyone or even some, with any game or number of games.

Thats not the issue.

Satisfying most of the two groups I depicted in the OP, is the objective.

According to most of the posts thus far, even though they vote no, the proposed solution is basically two games within one game, or an optioned feature game that could effectively do the same thing.

The problem here is this:

The established trend is basically less, not more of what would be required.
For example, the first thing we find out about GT7 is PD, still will not have all the cars up to premium.
So, through one complete gen cycle(PS3) and now we are into the next(PS4) many of the cars will still be PS2 models.

In light of that one factor alone, the reality is, the grandiose features required, are not likely to become a reality until possibly GT8, or beyond.

How does content production impact on unrelated features development? How do you know that content production hasn't been targeting those features that are impacted from the start?

I'm not poo-pooing the idea of separate games meeting separate needs, by the way. I just think that if you want a different game, it's better for a different team to make it. And in which case, there's no need for it to be associated with GT at all, when the primary point is to differentiate from it...

It was a bit of a double-edged sword for Forza Horizon, for example.
Freed from the shackles of that association, a game can much more easily be what it needs to be to fill the gap.

 

[jimipitbull]

One new game (GT7), host GT1-6 + TT on cloud.

And an Apex book please

 

[Tenacious D]

If GT6 had the same career mode as GT5 with new cars & tracks well GT6 would have been in a lot better shape now.

Maybe I'm the oddball here, but I prefer GT6's single player events. In GT5, I ended up racing in Arcade Mode for a good year on Course Maker tracks I made, because the A-Spec events were so lackluster. They're generally shorter until you hit the really high level and endurance races, of course. And there were odd matters like the American Championship which had all of three events, and at least one track wasn't in America!

In GT6, I've been caught up in racing some of the I-B and I-A events a lot, as well as Arcade Mode on infinite laps, because the bots are more likely to race you in those, and you don't end up in an empty race chasing rabbits as in the S-Class level. In fact, I'm about to dive into that again, if some online bunch doesn't open up.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Maybe I'm the oddball here, but I prefer GT6's single player events. In GT5, I ended up racing in Arcade Mode for a good year on Course Maker tracks I made, because the A-Spec events were so lackluster. They're generally shorter until you hit the really high level and endurance races, of course. And there were odd matters like the American Championship which had all of three events, and at least one track wasn't in America!

In GT6, I've been caught up in racing some of the I-B and I-A events a lot, as well as Arcade Mode on infinite laps, because the bots are more likely to race you in those, and you don't end up in an empty race chasing rabbits as in the S-Class level. In fact, I'm about to dive into that again, if some online bunch doesn't open up.

Another good example of my point.

For GT6 they add back a few A-spec events, and then drop the endurance races.
Back to less, not more.