WTF is up with tyre model.

[Samus]

I feel PD's handling of tyres is pretty poor anyway. Far too simplistic.

They have plenty of historic cars, but nothing that accurately replicates historic tyres. Their GT40's, 330 P3/4, Jag XJ13, Chaparrals etc, all run slick racing tyres when they actually used treaded tyres. This is one of the reasons why they can keep up with the modern stuff in GT5, where in reality using the correct tyres, they wouldn't see the modern (and Group C era) cars for dust.

Very true. If they want to push on the simulation route they really need to do a complete overhaul of the tyre physics and related parts because right now it's very, very basic. There seems to be a base grip level and each tyre, irrespective of the car, it's width or sidewall height has a set multiplier level of grip.

 

[chuyler1]

This is old news guys. I analyzed specifics for GT500 class cars in this thread...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=236549

The conclusion is that RS tires have so much more grip that even though you have to pit more often they are still the fastest way around most tracks. Exceptions being High Speed Ring, Daytona and Indy. You make back the extra pit stop time on the other tracks very quickly. RS tires are simply unrealistic. They wear too fast, yet still have too much grip.

The only solution PD could implement that would allow for mixed tire strategies in endurance racing would have to include the following:

1) Tire wear slider bar for online racing, and a specific setting for the A-spec and B-spec races tailored to the track and vehicle class.

2) Closer grip levels for each of the racing compounds. Right now they are too separated giving the driver on RS or RM tires a huge advantage over someone on RH tires attempting to stretch their pit stops

3) More realistic fuel consumption for race cars and more options when pitting to skip taking tires. Le Mans cars stop for fuel twice as often as they do for tires. Right now you can go 3 or 4 stops for tires without a single refuel (but most savvy racers top off while the tires are changed anyway).

 

[Lambob]

Raced against a nice group of Brazil racers,

I just lapped the Nur online in a RUF RGT @505pp, hard driving all around, (paced way down on last half of 3rd lap) my RS tires lasted the full 3 lap race, I spun out 3 times (albeit a tad on purpose)=> at the last turn to finish line, and lost approx 15 seconds getting my car straight, but still won the race by 12s.

My Lotus Evora barely makes 2 laps on Racing Softs,

The Scirocco R '10 barely makes 1 lap.

 

[snowgt]

I think the ideal situation would be, if the RH tyres would last about as long as a full load of fuel does. It would be nice actually only needing to pit when the fuel runs out. That could be about 45-60 minutes or so.

Now, from that we could try to derive how long the other 2 tyre compounds should last in order for different pit strategies to be possible. If we assume that the Racing Medium is about 1 second faster per minute of racing, then that would amount to a 45-60 second advantage from lap times alone per RH stint, which would have to be balanced against additional time taken for pitstops for the RM tyre. That means there has to be about 1 extra pitstop in that time-frame. Durability for the RM tyre should therefore be about half of the RH tyre. (20-30 minutes)

For the RS tyre, that would mean 2 additional pitstops, if it's 2 seconds faster per minute, and accordingly one third of the RH-lifetime, i.e. 15-20 minutes.

If that's needed, one could also introduce a qualifying tyre additionally, which lasts only 10 minutes or so, but I'm not sure that's such a good idea. RS tyres are sticky enough in my opinion.

Another idea would be to have a Racing Super-Hard tyre for endurance racing, which has only slightly worse performance than the RH, but a lot more durability. I don't know if there's enough of a performance gap between RH and SS for that to make sense though.

And for those that want pit strategy in shorter races, you could introduce an accelerated fuel/tyre consumption, like they have for time in time change courses. That would offer the best of both worlds for everyone.


As it is currently, the tyre consumption sadly takes out fuel strategy almost completely. Of course, you don't need to refuel that much, if you pit a lot more, therefore having shorter pitstops, but for 24 hour races, even if you stay on RH's there's way too many pitstops. Also, the element of deciding when to change tyres in changing weather is almost a no-brainer, because you need to come in a lot anyway, so one more earlier pitstop doesn't make much of a difference anymore.

 

[Jawehawk]

How does that work? Are you saying the tyre model only works if you ignore one type of tyre? How is that 'working' exactly? Many people may not like the RS because of their grip levels but if they are in the game people are going to use them and they should be balanced with the other tyres. They're clearly not.

Plus, even if you pretend the RS don't exist it doesn't change the fact RM and RH still wear far too quickly.

Ignoring one single tire(a tire used by rookies no less), is hardly the end of the world. Using RS tires is almost the equivalent of using SRF.
The reason behind the less than realistic tire wear might be the fact that very few races are long enough. PD might simply be trying to give people an idea of realism, while remaining within the limits of your average online race.

 

[awr117]

They could remove RS for all i care.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Ignoring one single tire(a tire used by rookies no less), is hardly the end of the world. Using RS tires is almost the equivalent of using SRF.
The reason behind the less than realistic tire wear might be the fact that very few races are long enough. PD might simply be trying to give people an idea of realism, while remaining within the limits of your average online race.

The problem with that is that it doesn't change anything, RMs just become the new RSs, always faster so the only valid choice. The only way strategy comes into play at all(if we're talking serious competition) is if the race length is just a tiny bit longer than a stint(or set of stints) on the softer tire. The extra pit stops are compensated for much too quickly for their to really be any option.

I still think PD is afraid to eliminate the "tire choice as a difficulty setting" mechanic from offline racing.

 

[AMS97F1]

Says who?



Rather uncommon? Plenty of series have soft racing tyres, including F1. They last much longer than those in GT5.


Yes but again who said the soft tyres in GT5 are 1 lap qualifying tyres? Those such tyres are usually called super soft.

Super soft Pirrelli tyres last about 10 laps on average i think.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Terms like "soft" and "super soft" don't mean anything. It's just like drink sizes at a restaurant or popcorn sizes at a movie theater.

There is no relation whatsoever between a "soft" LM24 tire and a "soft" F1 tire. Different years can often bring radically different "soft" compound tires as well.

GT5 makes no claim to replicate any real manufacturer's tire, or that it's tires fit any real series's regulations. They're just what they decided to use. So it's pointless to make comparisons to what XXXX team got out of XXXX tire compound at XXXX race. The only way to compare is to go by what levels of grip they generate, and the concensus from other threads seems to be that RS tires produce grip only seen in some of the softest ever real-world qualifying tires.

The hope is that they are attempting to make the tires mimic a proper relationship between compounds, and that they are at least close enough to real-world to enable races that don't have wacky things going on like people pitting every 5 minutes.

 

[AMS97F1]

Terms like "soft" and "super soft" don't mean anything. It's just like drink sizes at a restaurant or popcorn sizes at a movie theater.

There is no relation whatsoever between a "soft" LM24 tire and a "soft" F1 tire. Different years can often bring radically different "soft" compound tires as well.

GT5 makes no claim to replicate any real manufacturer's tire, or that it's tires fit any real series's regulations. They're just what they decided to use. So it's pointless to make comparisons to what XXXX team got out of XXXX tire compound at XXXX race. The only way to compare is to go by what levels of grip they generate, and the concensus from other threads seems to be that RS tires produce grip only seen in some of the softest ever real-world qualifying tires.

The hope is that they are attempting to make the tires mimic a proper relationship between compounds, and that they are at least close enough to real-world to enable races that don't have wacky things going on like people pitting every 5 minutes.

To me it looks like they have done a Pirrelli - F1 route. Really grippy but wear super fast

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

try to use more driving skill instead of RS.....try....try...

most of us do, I know I use RH tires, but RS tires would actually require more skill under the current behavior of the game. Since RS tires wear very quick more so than their real life counter parts you would need to figure out how to pace yourself and conserve them. As to where RH you don't have to do that until the end of their life span.

Also why can't we have an online pre race option that is in a certain time limit to qualify. However, the qualifying would be similar to that or the same as Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec version. You go around the track and try to beat the lap of the car posted ahead of you and what not.

 

[RReed43]

As far as I can tell they also don't model the weight of fuel in the car on speed. A full car is just as fast as an empty car. This further eliminates some of the important aspects of pit stop strategy.

Another factor on tire modeling is that rain tires are slower than the intermediate tires when the track is 100% covered with rain. I just completed the Nurburgring 24hr race and the last 19 hours were in the rain. I won by 11 laps but was up only by about a minute after 5 hours when the track was dry but blew the AI away once it started to rain. They were running rain tires and I was running intermediates. This was with 2.03 and it was exactly the same case with 2.02 when I did the 24hr LeMans race. It makes no sense to have rain tires slower than intermediate tires in a 100% covered road surface.

 

[peterjford]

Super soft Pirrelli tyres last about 10 laps on average i think.

Depends on the abrasiveness of the track surface. I remember at one track they were only good for 2-3 laps and then dropped off dramatically in grip, I wish I could remember which one, but it was in the first half of the season when I was watching them live, not the second half when they waited on the DVR for months.

They could remove RS for all i care.

The problem with that is that it doesn't change anything, RMs just become the new RSs, always faster so the only valid choice. The only way strategy comes into play at all(if we're talking serious competition) is if the race length is just a tiny bit longer than a stint(or set of stints) on the softer tire. The extra pit stops are compensated for much too quickly for their to really be any option.

I think they should get rid of the RS. The RMs should be renamed the RS and have about the same grip they do now (or maybe a little more to keep too many people from crying). The RHs should be renamed RM and maybe have a tiny bit more durability. The new RH should last for about a tank of fuel on La Sarthe in a LMP. Its grip though would probably be really close to SS.

 

[CorvetteConquer]

I just want my semi soft racing January morning dew fog and sleet super sedimentary cobblestone gravel drift tires.


Is that so much to ask?

 

[awr117]

Ran a test myself on SPA for 18 laps. Although i was only able to stretch 6 laps on RS, they came out in the end to be the best option even with the additional pit stop.

RS + 3 pits = 42.00 minutes
RM + 2 pits = 43.00 minutes
RH 12 laps pit for RS 6 laps = 42.3 minutes

 

[Jawehawk]

Another factor on tire modeling is that rain tires are slower than the intermediate tires when the track is 100% covered with rain.

Uhm, you can't use A-spec as an arguement, as A-Spec grip setting is set to high. In online or arcade races where the grip setting is set to real, there's a huge difference between intermediates and rain tires. Rain tires Rain tires are absolutely neccesary when the track has reached 60/70%
Otherwise you'll be sliding everywhere.

 

[avens]

Super soft Pirrelli tyres last about 10 laps on average i think.

considering that everyone agrees on that RS tires provide unreal grip, RMs are probably what resembles super soft tires used in formula 1, but then those are especifically made to not last. Also in practice sessions and qualies teams said those would last at most 4 laps, but that ended up in being just a strategy since they lasted for at least twice as much in every track.

Here are some suggestions for GT6:
1.- I hope current RS tires are removed because of all this and by the fact they literally ruin the game (offline and online) by providing lots of grip to cars that shouldn't have it; it's tuning the car to play arcade mode.
2.- Also I think racing tires should be allowed to buy only for pro racing (not tuned) cars because those aren't road legal, and again it's simply unreal to fit $40,000 tires every 5 laps (RS) to a $5,000 or $500,000 car.
3.- I'd suggest having 4 types of racing tires: endurance, hard, soft, supersoft (with less grip than current RS tires though).