- 2,095
- Norwich, UK
- madmike1986
Yeah, But Does Your Tune Work ONLINE? (Possible Future Hassle for Tuning Community?)
- Thread starter SS_1182
- 111 comments
- 10,187 views
- 465
- actionjeans
I have a perfect example that might help some people - a tuned NSX-R, slammed with full aero on Cape Ring - now the setup at the time wasn't very good offline, it was more a "put this crap on the car, slam it, stiffen it, and see what it does".
So offline, no issues with the car, didn't handle that great, but it was good enough. Go online (Cape Ring, reversed) and the section leading up to the big banked turn? I would completely spin out because the car bottomed out through the steeply banked/uphill sections.
I'm wondering if it's impossible to bottom the car out offline, but you CAN do it online. Even a very slight bottoming would effect handling greatly. The lower the car, i.e. an NSX or a RM car, the greater the effect - you'd never notice it on something like an old school Alfa, because even dropped all the way, it would never hit the chassis.
The fact that several people have mentioned the carousel spinning mid engined cars under any throttle whatsoever lends more credence to this theory - it may be more the fact that the car starts out pretty low (most mid engined cars in GT5 are supercars), your tune lowers the car further, and the carousel, through it's banking (i.e. positive g's) and massive bumps, would be the prime candidate to allow the chassis to hit the pavement. It's an instant spin when this happens.
So it's possible that the physics aren't different at all, but the reality of offline vs. online may be that your setting your car up to unrealistically low levels which you'd never be able to run, if that level of contact is then factored in.
Makes sense yeah?
So offline, no issues with the car, didn't handle that great, but it was good enough. Go online (Cape Ring, reversed) and the section leading up to the big banked turn? I would completely spin out because the car bottomed out through the steeply banked/uphill sections.
I'm wondering if it's impossible to bottom the car out offline, but you CAN do it online. Even a very slight bottoming would effect handling greatly. The lower the car, i.e. an NSX or a RM car, the greater the effect - you'd never notice it on something like an old school Alfa, because even dropped all the way, it would never hit the chassis.
The fact that several people have mentioned the carousel spinning mid engined cars under any throttle whatsoever lends more credence to this theory - it may be more the fact that the car starts out pretty low (most mid engined cars in GT5 are supercars), your tune lowers the car further, and the carousel, through it's banking (i.e. positive g's) and massive bumps, would be the prime candidate to allow the chassis to hit the pavement. It's an instant spin when this happens.
So it's possible that the physics aren't different at all, but the reality of offline vs. online may be that your setting your car up to unrealistically low levels which you'd never be able to run, if that level of contact is then factored in.
Makes sense yeah?
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For all the people who are bringing up the fact that another thread already exists discussing the differences in online vs. offline physics, yes I am quite aware of that. I've posted there several times.
THIS thread has to do with TUNING CARS based on online/offline differences in physics and how tuners should go about posting, sharing, and implementing their tunes. Get over it.
THIS thread has to do with TUNING CARS based on online/offline differences in physics and how tuners should go about posting, sharing, and implementing their tunes. Get over it.
mafia_boy
(Banned)
- 5,570
- GTP_Mafiaboy
Yeah but your online-with-race-softs-tuned, 480hp, 110xkg Citroen LOST to my poor little 420ish hp 1196kg Volvo built offline with S3s at the Ring despite a massive advantage down straights. And being tuned for the conditions whereas my car was dealing with fuel weight and way more grip.
Lesson? Mafs can make cars go fast in a straight line.
REALLY?? As soon as the race ended I said it was my fault, not the cars because I went off course a few times, the first of them allowed you to take the lead from me. By all means RJ, I'll rematch my Citroen against your Volvo ANYTIME and the result won't be the same as last race. 
Think about it dude, you seriously think you gained 7 seconds in a section because of a performance advantage in handling?? No no no catface, it was because I kept pushing the car too hard and kept going off track. 
Need I remind you that at the start of Lap 2 that I chopped nearly 6 seconds off that lead in the first 3 sections when I relaxed a bit and stayed on the track, so handling and straightline are already both in my court. I'll be on in a bit (son has TV), I'll shoot a message for a rematch today for sure. GME's honor has been insulted!!
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
Has anyone considered it's just fuel weight? That would explain over/understeer differences and is a heck of alot more likely than PD designing 2 seperate physics models.
- 6,072
- Finland
Some people have but usually at that point in comes the Anti-GT5 brigade with a lot of arguments how the game sucks because it has two different physics models and overwhelms anything else.
Personally I believe there are two tiers so to speak, "normal offline" which means Practice Mode and races up to Extreme level and "the other tier" which includes online and endurance races. The difference between a full tank and a nearly empty one in endurances is huge, and very much like the difference that is usually seen as two different physics models. I think it's the very same model but the fuel makes a larger difference than many realize.
- 1,139
- budious
By that theory then you should be able to enable tire wear and fuel consumption on Practice Mode and be in the other physics environment. Not being critical of your theory, just suggesting we do some testing. I'll try it later.
Edit: Nevermind, guess there's not an option for that on regular practice mode, strange you can find an option for damage though which is why I thought you be able to do tire and fuel wear also.
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- 961
Not so sure about that. The differences I reported with online are noticeable immediately, ie at the first corner, and I have played this game a lot offline.
Over the weekend I will be trying out many more cars to see whether the differences are car specific, but again as I wrote earlier, one of my friends has played online a lot over several weeks and told us that in his experience it is the same for all cars.
- 4
I run 100 HP limit rooms pretty frequently online using Sports Hard tires.
I do a bit of testing on Cape Ring Periphery and FF cars that I have runing 2.05 lap times offline have a hard time getting 2.07 online.
FR/MR cars that I have set up offline are undrivable online. I have a '93 Honda Beat Z (with wing) that can run 2.02 offline and take the first right hander at full throttle and take the Ring at 93 mph as well as the "S" turn in third gear without a problem.
When I run it online I spin that first right hander going 5 mph slower and with only 1/2 throttle. I spin out on the Ring if I try to take it at any more the 70 mph and I have to take the "S" turn 10 mph slower.
I am not a tuner so don't know how to correct these problems so I'm throwing myself at the problem and will try to learn how to fix these issues.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I do a bit of testing on Cape Ring Periphery and FF cars that I have runing 2.05 lap times offline have a hard time getting 2.07 online.
FR/MR cars that I have set up offline are undrivable online. I have a '93 Honda Beat Z (with wing) that can run 2.02 offline and take the first right hander at full throttle and take the Ring at 93 mph as well as the "S" turn in third gear without a problem.
When I run it online I spin that first right hander going 5 mph slower and with only 1/2 throttle. I spin out on the Ring if I try to take it at any more the 70 mph and I have to take the "S" turn 10 mph slower.
I am not a tuner so don't know how to correct these problems so I'm throwing myself at the problem and will try to learn how to fix these issues.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
The problem is that all of these tuning garages who've spent hours to perfect tunes with slight oversteer OFFLINE are going to have to make serious modifications to deal with the increase in oversteer that occurs ONLINE. I wouldn't touch those tunes with a 10ft pole if I was trying to be competitive online. That's not a knock at them in any way, I'm just saying there's a real problem here, because A-Spec is basically DONE and the game's future resides in the online community. Undoubtedly, oversteering offline tunes have basically already become useless, despite the hours put into them.
- 2
- ~_~
It seems like Kaz increased gravity online, that's all. Not a whole new engine or anything.. there is just more gravity.
- 1,139
- budious
Nothing of the sort, think I finally got the bottom of this with about six hours of grinding tonight. Too complicated to run through in a short reply, I'll type my notes into a proper write up sometime tomorrow and along with it provide some test cases if you want to recreate my works.
Hey guys.I`m new here and this is my first post but i think that onlinde handling is diferent because : The tires wear in time while racing while in single player after they reach the temperature they stay in the most optimal condition,and this makes a world of difrence for me.Also there is the aspiration...while racing online and going fast behind another person and the person in front of u starts braking u should brake preventive before he does if not u will end up hiting him or spining out because on aspiration the braking distance increases and the lack of friciton with air can have negative effects on your car.Just my opinion 
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nasanu
(Banned)
- 1,429
- Australia
- nasanu
- nasanu
Im assuming you dont believe in god then?
Of course I don't. I don't believe in santa either.
Hmm.. I battle understeer online, not oversteer. And I have found myself recently removing custom tunes by members here because I am increasingly finding that their tunes reduce the movement of the cars. The exact opposite of what you are finding.
It may just come down to driving style. I would love to see someone come up with a definitive way to test this.
- 1,139
- budious
How to select and optimize drivetrain components, and the not so obvious effects.
My article is up, I hope you find it useful.
My article is up, I hope you find it useful.
- 28
- CanoeTTT
Well done budious...
I read the article and I agree with you. There is no difference in the physics in the game.
I would add that people may be venturing on-line and may be unaware that some races are held with different parameters established for car settings by the host.
In any case it sounds like testing and set-up should take place in "my lounge" if on-line racing is planned for that car.
Great work, budious!
CHEERS!
Lol. Article or not, the physics are different. Write a book about it if you feel the need to. Meanwhile I'll hit the online track and in 2 seconds be able to tell the difference, literally. I appreciate your efforts though, please don't take it as a slam on you doing research. I will read through that more thoroughly and I'm sure I will benefit from doing so.
But CanoeTTT, I will again refer you to the tuning threads for the Motorsport Elise. Myself and others spent a great deal of time setting up the car offline. Immediately when driving the car online the increase in oversteer became blatantly obvious. This is but one example.
**I went the other way as well. I spent over 6 hours setting up my tune for the S2000 R1 '04 in an ONLINE lobby at Nordscheife just days ago. 6 hours... okay? I know what that car was driving like. I went to the OFFLINE Nordschleife track so that I could register a time on my personal leaderboards and guess what, UNDERSTEER. Why? Because the oversteer is increased online, FACT. I went offline, and now my car which had originally been set up in an environment with more oversteer was too stiff in cornering.
Feel free to disagree. I will personally test drive any car you setup online vs. my offline tunes and give you honest feedback. How about the S2000 R1 '04 car, since I put so much time into it?
I have no reason to waste my time on such an issue so as to try and simply "be right". I'm quite busy with other real priorities, and my only goal here is to personally set up my cars for the best possible results online because that is where the game is moving. In the end I mostly go online to compete seriously, and therefore I faced the facts about this issue when they slapped me right in the face, even though it meant a significant loss in hours of my life previously setting up cars to perform in offline physics.
- 1,139
- budious
Well that kind of was the point of the my research and the article. I took my tunes online, noticed some instability, pulled off the clutch upgrade, instantly it started driving like offline with tire wear on and pulling regular lap times, albeit it a bit slower without the clutch. I had never tested my Corvette '69 tune in an online hobby until then, one part change, fixed. Isolated case?
On the other hand, that makes it a more difficult fix for race-cars that do not allow the clutch or flywheel to be down spec'd.
I too agree with budious. He brings up some solid points but most importantly he backs it up with HARD DATA. Not only that but it makes sense and would be consistent or at least fairly close to real physics. I will take on budious's challenge and do some testing myself.
I am not disagreeing or agreeing with either budious or SS_1182(or anyone else that says the two physics sets are different) I am just saying that one has made a better argument than the other. Maybe its a combination of both things? Who knows. The only real way to find out is to do some repeatable tests that are capable of attacking this 'issue' at every possible angle.
Something else to ponder on. When you adjust the differences between offline and online are clutches, fly wheels, and drive shafts being changed? I would guess not. Lending more credence to budious and his testing.
Btw thank you for taking the time and getting the ball rolling on these repeatable tests!
I am not disagreeing or agreeing with either budious or SS_1182(or anyone else that says the two physics sets are different) I am just saying that one has made a better argument than the other. Maybe its a combination of both things? Who knows. The only real way to find out is to do some repeatable tests that are capable of attacking this 'issue' at every possible angle.
Something else to ponder on. When you adjust the differences between offline and online are clutches, fly wheels, and drive shafts being changed? I would guess not. Lending more credence to budious and his testing.
Btw thank you for taking the time and getting the ball rolling on these repeatable tests!
- 2,647
Online races are short sprints, often with cars in front of you that disrupt your cars aerodynamics. And your tires won't even reach optimal temperature until lap 3.
- 2,095
- Norwich, UK
- madmike1986
- 3,509
- Cumberland, BC
- GTP_BlacqueJack
Anything official on the subject?
Exactly!!
Also, your DF Tunery post on drivetrains is awesome, I played around a lot last night just trying to figure out why some of those symptoms were occurring.
On topic however and I don't tune enough or race back and forth between offline and online to be able to have any proof either way...
...however, why on earth would PD create different physics models for the two separate modes? This just sounds like insanity from a design standpoint. Even if you do have to tweak things for the network, you would never change the actual physics of a car to accomplish this. I can as a network engineer say a bit about that.
Seems likely to me that the changes are more due to the things already mentioned, or factors like them. I.E. Tire degradation, fuel consumption, even the previously mentioned track temperature. Or simply the host settings.
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- 961
I am now going turn around and say it is all down to lag. More seriously, I do not know.
My observation after racing online over the last few days is that online physics seem to change like the weather here in the UK. A good example is my Elise 111R RM using madmike's tune. Offline it is fantastic, online it was a pig, another day online it is about 90% right. Similar results with other cars that I have tuned.
Something is not right somewhere, but I am just going work on the basis that every online day will have different physics.
My observation after racing online over the last few days is that online physics seem to change like the weather here in the UK. A good example is my Elise 111R RM using madmike's tune. Offline it is fantastic, online it was a pig, another day online it is about 90% right. Similar results with other cars that I have tuned.
Something is not right somewhere, but I am just going work on the basis that every online day will have different physics.
I totally disagree with you. The only difference is the tires, the suspension and how the car in general moves is the same but having less grippy tires that wear out faster and uneven/weird makes for a messed up ride.
I still run <7:00 in my Speed 12 on Nurb Online.
I still run <7:00 in my Speed 12 on Nurb Online.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
I noticed something odd while racing online last night. I was tuning a new car during qualifying and the setup did need to be adjusted a bit from offline (higher LSD settings and softer rear suspension in a FR car).
The odd part is that during qualifying, my setup felt pretty balanced. Just a little on throttle oversteer. When the race started, the car was completely ass happy - a huge difference from the way the car handled in qualifying. I noticed this in 6 online races.
There were only 3 or 4 racers on track at one time during qualifing and 8 or so joined us for each race. I did notice about 3 cars that looked like they had slow connection speeds as they would jump around the screen. Any thoughts?
The odd part is that during qualifying, my setup felt pretty balanced. Just a little on throttle oversteer. When the race started, the car was completely ass happy - a huge difference from the way the car handled in qualifying. I noticed this in 6 online races.
There were only 3 or 4 racers on track at one time during qualifing and 8 or so joined us for each race. I did notice about 3 cars that looked like they had slow connection speeds as they would jump around the screen. Any thoughts?
