Z06 RM Tuning Help

[Motor City Hami]

Why would you not listen. It absolutely creates oversteer. I don't need to do a way to long super controlled test to say that +front -rear helps the car rotate. Thats what it does, its very noticeable. Go try it.

Go and run -0.15 +0.15

then run +0.15 -0.15

Tell me which one has more mid corner rotation.

I think you need to test these changes separately. Change rear only, then change front only.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

As I said, it's driver dependent and it's relating to GT5 not real life which is different . Maybe it has to do with me running without ABS as well, I always trail braking on corner entry, is just natural. Recently I have been tuning and testing various cars at Akina ( a custom track now used for GTP Hot Version Touge Showdown ), so I ended up using +front and - rear on some cars after many laps of testing.

I used +10F and +5R on race event at Deadnutsevenracing yesterday, the car was Elise'96 415pp with comfort soft tire, good for 1:58 at Cote D'Azure, it can pull off 1:57 with a better driver. I experimented with +10F and -5R, the car tend to slide on exits for me, 10/4 BB, no ABS.

FYI, I rarely use - front toe, it's either 0 front toe or +, rear can be 0, - or + depend on the car and track.

It's more of preference for me, so anyone interested please try experiment what's best. When tuning + testing I always start with 0 toe F and R, then experiment by 5 increments.

 

[rosckolove]

I'll eat my words on front toe for now.

Negative rear toe promotes oversteer. Positive promotes the opposite.

 

[SGETI]

Where is Adrenaline to resolve this matter?

 

[rosckolove]

I think speed is the name of the game on this forum. Being an academy finalist puts you at the top and validates your opinion.

I feel its solved, thanks to Stotty.

 

[Adrenaline]

Where is Adrenaline to resolve this matter?

Just watching the show.

 

[Stotty]

As I said, it's driver dependent and it's relating to GT5 not real life which is different . Maybe it has to do with me running without ABS as well, I always trail braking on corner entry, is just natural. Recently I have been tuning and testing various cars at Akina ( a custom track now used for GTP Hot Version Touge Showdown ), so I ended up using +front and - rear on some cars after many laps of testing.

I used +10F and +5R on race event at Deadnutsevenracing yesterday, the car was Elise'96 415pp with comfort soft tire, good for 1:58 at Cote D'Azure, it can pull off 1:57 with a better driver. I experimented with +10F and -5R, the car tend to slide on exits for me, 10/4 BB, no ABS.

FYI, I rarely use - front toe, it's either 0 front toe or +, rear can be 0, - or + depend on the car and track.

It's more of preference for me, so anyone interested please try experiment what's best. When tuning + testing I always start with 0 toe F and R, then experiment by 5 increments.

Not sure about changes without ABS as although I am a confirmed trail braker, I always use it.

I understand with the Elise... it can be a tricky little bugger... but I like that about it I'd use other settings than toe to manage that though... stiffening the rear springs/dampers/ARB's to manage the lateral weight transfer and roll oversteer.

I think speed is the name of the game on this forum. Being an academy finalist puts you at the top and validates your opinion.

I feel its solved, thanks to Stotty.

Kind of you to say, but I'm afraid I'm not as fast as I used to be (just like I'm not as young as I used to be - there may e a correlation )... and 2010 Academy was a different physics engine and non-tunable cars.

I have no empirical evidence that -ve is better than +ve, it's just how it feels to me.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Not sure about changes without ABS as although I am a confirmed trail braker, I always use it.

I understand with the Elise... it can be a tricky little bugger... but I like that about it I'd use other settings than toe to manage that though... stiffening the rear springs/dampers/ARB's to manage the lateral weight transfer and roll oversteer.

I was running Elise using full custom suspension, but with almost stock appearance + behavior just for fun Here is my setup :

Ride H 25/30
Spring 2.0/3.0
Ext 4/2
Comp 3/2
ARB 4/6
Camber 2.3/1.8
Toe 0.10/0.05

LSD 5/6/5

Soft spring, high ride height, the car needs smooth operator and tuned with no ABS in mind, I love watching the replay as the car rolls in every corner

With this setup, I only alter toe setting to get what I wanted

 

[Stotty]

I was running Elise using full custom suspension, but with almost stock appearance + behavior just for fun Here is my setup :

Ride H 25/30
Spring 2.0/3.0
Ext 4/2
Comp 3/2
ARB 4/6
Camber 2.3/1.8
Toe 0.10/0.05

LSD 5/6/5

Soft spring, high ride height, the car needs smooth operator and tuned with no ABS in mind, I love watching the replay as the car rolls in every corner

With this setup, I only alter toe setting to get what I wanted

That's an interesting set up and one I certainly wouldn't have come up with... well, not the ride height settings anyway - the rest looks fine balance wise, but I'd not expect it to be a particularly quick tune

I think we might have different objectives TBH... I get so little time to play GT5 nowadays that I'll be running Seasonal TT's if I do... and that means I'm purely focused on tuning for the fastest single lap. I don't really just lap for the fun of it (TT's are my fun).

 

[CSLACR]

I don't need a lesson in toe, I understand how it works

As I said, IMO, +ve front toe does nothing but make you think the car is understeering less because the steering feels more responsive (which is at odds with real life, where it makes the car more stable). In reality it kills mid corner and exit speed by adding understeer.

And in any case, it's not the outside tyre you need to be concerned about... it's the tyre under most load so you'll naturally apply enough steering lock to get this tyre to the right angle (but not to the extent you have the front sliding)... the inside tyre is the one that then carries extra angle and helps 'pull' the front round the corner.

I've got a few of the 'Super Aliens' on my friends list and get to see the tunes they use on the seasonal TT's when they have cars on share... and I have never seen any tunes from any of these people running +ve front toe.

I could, without a doubt, post video of + front toe lowering a lap time in an otherwise unchanged AEM S2000 if you're interested.
I'm not a super-alien, but I have a pretty good idea what goes fast/faster usually.

We could discuss if positive toe is ultimately the fastest route and/or if other things can be adjusted to compensate, improving the lap time from a setup using positive toe, which I'd be interested to investigate.

In this example, the S2000 is oversteering harshly on entry stock, so setting -ve toe on the front increases the problem, which would mean more dramatic other settings to compensate. Whether that's ultimately faster or not I do not know.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

That's an interesting set up and one I certainly wouldn't have come up with... well, not the ride height settings anyway - the rest looks fine balance wise, but I'd not expect it to be a particularly quick tune

I think we might have different objectives TBH... I get so little time to play GT5 nowadays that I'll be running Seasonal TT's if I do... and that means I'm purely focused on tuning for the fastest single lap. I don't really just lap for the fun of it (TT's are my fun).

Yeah, it was fun to race with, I got 1st on one of the warm up races, then 4th was my best on the main races Anyway, Stotty this might be interesting tune to drive for you, if you have free time, try my R33 GTR Hosaka tune linked on my sig, run with the tune's toe ( +35F, -35R ) then reverse it and then run 0F,0R, try it at Eiger with SS tire, any BB you prefer, with or without ABS. The tune's toe has been reviewed by the testers at GTP Hot Version Touge, as having oversteer , on the same thread as the tune.

 

[Adrenaline]

With all due respect to Stotty, and other aliens alike, it's somewhat counter intuitive to blindly believe based on speed. Point being, Stotty could take a completely backwards tune and still be competitive. The difference between -/+ toe to him probably only effects his lap times by less than a tenth, and I'd even venture to say it doesn't necessarily effect the cars balance, as much as it simply alters the balance that suits his driving needs. The other issue against following what 'the group' of aliens do, is that because they're all within the same time bracket, it's likely that they all share the same type of driving style, and what suits them, doesn't always transfer to other driving styles. There's also the possibility, that because they fight for thousandths on a weekly basis, that their tunes also tend to follow patterns based on past success, and they regularly use Negative Front Toe, simply because that's what they always do, and it always works, which is somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Unfortunately the 2.09 update has altered things to a point, that I no longer feel as strongly about my standpoint on the matter. I don't possess the time/effort put into tuning as I did before this update, so I can't confidently say my old guideline remains accurate.

So as long as everyone is willing to take it as an outdated method, that use to work, but has yet to be proven, (nor disproven) theory on toe, mine is as follows:

Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

Again... This was my belief prior to 2.09, and have yet to re-test the theory.

 

[Stotty]

I could, without a doubt, post video of + front toe lowering a lap time in an otherwise unchanged AEM S2000 if you're interested.
I'm not a super-alien, but I have a pretty good idea what goes fast/faster usually.

We could discuss if positive toe is ultimately the fastest route and/or if other things can be adjusted to compensate, improving the lap time from a setup using positive toe, which I'd be interested to investigate.

In this example, the S2000 is oversteering harshly on entry stock, so setting -ve toe on the front increases the problem, which would mean more dramatic other settings to compensate. Whether that's ultimately faster or not I do not know.

I don't think I've ever driven an S2000 in GT5 (though I do own very version in the game), but I tend to like cars that do that

But I'd say that reducing front end grip to help you manage oversteer isn't the right strategy.

My philosophy on buiding the fastest car I can is never do anything to reduce front end grip... in fact do everything you possily can to get the most out of the front end. Then deal with the oversteer.

Though the more typical process is deal with the initial oversteer directly but as gently as possible... get used to the car... add more front end grip until it becomes unmanageable... deal directly with the oversteer... add more front end grip... etc etc.

Edit to respond to Adrenaline....

With all due respect to Stotty, and other aliens alike, it's somewhat counter intuitive to blindly believe based on speed. Point being, Stotty could take a completely backwards tune and still be competitive. The difference between -/+ toe to him probably only effects his lap times by less than a tenth, and I'd even venture to say it doesn't necessarily effect the cars balance, as much as it simply alters the balance that suits his driving needs. The other issue against following what 'the group' of aliens do, is that because they're all within the same time bracket, it's likely that they all share the same type of driving style, and what suits them, doesn't always transfer to other driving styles. There's also the possibility, that because they fight for thousandths on a weekly basis, that their tunes also tend to follow patterns based on past success, and they regularly use Negative Front Toe, simply because that's what they always do, and it always works, which is somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Unfortunately the 2.09 update has altered things to a point, that I no longer feel as strongly about my standpoint on the matter. I don't possess the time/effort put into tuning as I did before this update, so I can't confidently say my old guideline remains accurate.

So as long as everyone is willing to take it as an outdated method, that use to work, but has yet to be proven, (nor disproven) theory on toe, mine is as follows:

Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

Again... This was my belief prior to 2.09, and have yet to re-test the theory.

Great post... lots of good points 👍 Except the insinuation I might be linked in any way to Alien status... last time I looked I was 1.1s slower than Amo in the SLS TT and 6s slower than Dan in the C7

I've bolded the 2 particular bits I agree with...

I can normally get in the top 50 within 30 mins or so and by my 2nd session I'm within a few tenths of what I know is possile for me.... after that I'm usually looking for a tiny setting change to help in one area of the event I know I'm losing time to the top ranked ghost whilst not changing too much to lose time where I'm competitive. Sometimes I'll have the tune of the fastest time via car share, though I have to say I have no idea how AmoRacing sets his times with the tunes he uses - they are beyond my skill level. And it's true, there's a similar approach by most at the sharp end of the TT leaderboards... get as much front end grip as you can, because that's what allows fast laps. And yes, the front toe point is probably true

The comment on rear toe is a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy... my point is I almost always want the car more unstable... I rarely get in a car that's not MR and think 'Ah, what a lovely balance'.. the last virgin car I drove like that was a stock Esprit (might have been the 350 Sport) for the Nurb lap times thread. But if I was to tune that car I would still start by adding front grip, not taking it away.

 

[CSLACR]

I agree with your philosophy Stotty, but you're looking at it as "removed grip", where I view it as "transferred grip".
-ve = more on entry
+ve = more on exit

Since I've started testing this theory from Adrenaline (all 2.09) it has worked on every single car I've tried it on. (RWD and 4WD)


Actually removing front grip can't make a car faster, just easier to drive to the limits of.

 

[Stotty]

I agree with your philosophy Stotty, but you're looking at it as "removed grip", where I view it as "transferred grip".
-ve = more on entry
+ve = more on exit

Since I've started testing this theory from Adrenaline (all 2.09) it has worked on every single car I've tried it on. (RWD and 4WD)


Actually removing front grip can't make a car faster, just easier to drive to the limits of.

Do you mean grip transferred from front tyres to rear tyres, or from corner entry to corner exit?

And are you referring to front end grip or overall grip with the entry/exit point?

Up to a point we all don't want a car to be too easy to drive... but then everyone's easy to drive point is different 👍

 

[CSLACR]

Do you mean grip transferred from front tyres to rear tyres, or from corner entry to corner exit?

And are you referring to front end grip or overall grip with the entry/exit point?

Up to a point we all don't want a car to be too easy to drive... but then everyone's easy to drive point is different 👍

If you run negative toe, you are increasing front grip on corner entry.
(vs 0.00 front toe)
If you run positive front toe, you are increasing front grip on corner exit.
(vs 0.00 front toe)

Theoretically 0.00 has maximum mid-corner grip, although negative is claimed to have more grip with heavy steering angles, super-aliens don't use heavy steering angles to my knowledge.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Oh my... what have I started. The shame about this thread is that the OP title will insure that it will not again be found 30+ days from now. Too bad, because it is a worthy discussion from once again a divided GTPlanet community.

With my limited 2.09 testing on this subject, I agree with Adrenaline, Stotty and CSLACR. I knew that there were others out there that, like me, had a different take on toe than what had been previously discussed in this thread. Happy to see others weigh in.

 

[Stotty]

If you run negative toe, you are increasing front grip on corner entry.
(vs 0.00 front toe)
If you run positive front toe, you are increasing front grip on corner exit.
(vs 0.00 front toe)

Theoretically 0.00 has maximum mid-corner grip, although negative is claimed to have more grip with heavy steering angles, super-aliens don't use heavy steering angles to my knowledge.

If that is the case then it's certainly worth me looking at as corner exit speed is king when it comes to lap times!

 

[XDesperado67]

While I'm far from being a great driver I've found especially recently that while front toe out does seem to generate a bit quicker turn in/agility, but it seems to have a negative effect on mid corner and corner exit with the car wanting to push wide/understeer more, especially in medium and high speed corners. Front toe in can create better grip mid corner and on exit at times.
That said the grip levels between front and rear need to be ballanced for best driving feel and ease of use. Having an extremely grippy front end and relatively loose rear end is a good way to end up spinning out constantly while having the rear grip exceeding the front prevents rotation of the car and ends with understeering.
For my own driving style (or lack thereof ) I like the cars rear end to be just a hair looser than the front to enable smooth rotation but not so loose that I'm constantly fighting to keep from losing the back and spinning out.

 

[CyKosis1973]

If that is the case then it's certainly worth me looking at as corner exit speed is king when it comes to lap times!

Since 2.09, the only cars I use -front toe on are FWD cars. Every other drivetrain I've built since, has +front toe. It makes my eyes bleed when I see any car with -rear toe, I just don't know how people can drive them (other than they're miles better than I am). Almost without exception, if I drive a car with -rear toe, I'll spin it the moment I drag a rear wheel over the grass.

Corner exit is indeed King, for me at least. I'd rather my cars where a little stubborn going into a corner, if I can get on the gas early and hoof it out of a corner. At Grand Valley, out of the first hairpin, most of my cars I can get on the gas well before the apex. Most satisfying to watch people scream into the corner, right up my chuff, to then be left behind on exit...

{Cy}

PS - You won't necessarily know this, but most others here do, I'm not fast. I'm a slow, club-thumbed old man, so I don't like cars that are too waggly going in. I don't have the reflexes of a 14 year old any more

 

[Adrenaline]

I've found especially recently that while front toe out does seem to generate a bit quicker turn in/agility, but it seems to have a negative effect on mid corner and corner exit with the car wanting to push wide/understeer more...

Was this worded correctly, perhaps a mistake, or is your standpoint the opposite of what I and CSL have stated, as far as +/- effecting exit/entry respectively.

 

[XDesperado67]

Was this worded correctly, perhaps a mistake, or is your standpoint the opposite of what I and CSL have stated, as far as +/- effecting exit/entry respectively.

Might just be my missreading of the values.
I agree with you that a - toe gives quicker front response/turn in while a + value can aid in mid corner and corner exit on some cars.
If that still doesn't match what your saying then just chalk this up to the ramblings of a crazy Ol'Wallbanger.

 

[kleefton]

I've always thought of +ve front toe as an illusion... gives the impression it's reducing understeer as it makes the steering feel more 'alive', but ultimately it reduces mid corner grip and leads to slower lap times.

I used -ve rear toe on virtually everything... has much more of an influence over handling balance than front toe.

I tend to agree with this super alien more than i do with the majority on this thread and im not even a fast driver. But what he refers to as an illusion to me is better steering response aka better turn in.

 

[Stotty]

I was thinking about this last night after I'd signed off... and I’m struggling to understand why –ve front toe would help turn in whilst +ve front toe would help with mid corner and exit speed. If –ve front toe helps turn in, why would it not help mid corner, unless it’s just perceived feel during the initial phase of cornering. My experience is the reverse of this (+ve front toe helps initially, but hinders mid corner)… or at least that’s how it felt to me pre 2.09 – I haven’t tried +ve front toe seriously post the update.

The more I think about it the more I conclude +ve front toe can only induce understeer when there’s lateral load on the tyre – the inside (relatively unloaded) tyre will be trying to scribe a shallower radius and working against the outside (loaded) tyre rather than helping it... and this effect should be consistent whenever there’s lateral load on the tyre, be it entry, mid or exit (although the magnitude of the effect may be higher with higher load levels).

I will of course test it out… and make sure I do it when I’m well in to a session, have a good feel for the car and running consistent laps. Hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend if my wife doesn’t have any plans for me.

It makes my eyes bleed when I see any car with -rear toe, I just don't know how people can drive them (other than they're miles better than I am). Almost without exception, if I drive a car with -rear toe, I'll spin it the moment I drag a rear wheel over the grass.

Don’t look at my garage then or you’ll bleed to death in seconds… pretty much every car I have tuned will have –ve rear toe

But I don’t tend to use the grass… well not whilst cornering

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I was thinking about this last night after I'd signed off... and I’m struggling to understand why –ve front toe would help turn in whilst +ve front toe would help with mid corner and exit speed. If –ve front toe helps turn in, why would it not help mid corner, unless it’s just perceived feel during the initial phase of cornering. My experience is the reverse of this (+ve front toe helps initially, but hinders mid corner)… or at least that’s how it felt to me pre 2.09 – I haven’t tried +ve front toe seriously post the update.

The more I think about it the more I conclude +ve front toe can only induce understeer when there’s lateral load on the tyre – the inside (relatively unloaded) tyre will be trying to scribe a shallower radius and working against the outside (loaded) tyre rather than helping it... and this effect should be consistent whenever there’s lateral load on the tyre, be it entry, mid or exit (although the magnitude of the effect may be higher with higher load levels).

I will of course test it out… and make sure I do it when I’m well in to a session, have a good feel for the car and running consistent laps. Hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend if my wife doesn’t have any plans for me.

Stotty, please don't forget to try my R33 tune if you have spare time on that weekend , try it at Eiger with SS tires, reverse the toe and then 0 toe all around. The tune also works great at Akina ( Toscana Custom track used on GTP Touge Showdown ) - I have it on share, send me FR if you are interested, the track is great to test suspension setup, toe changes can be really felt on most corners.

 

[trackripper123]

Stotty, please don't forget to try my R33 tune if you have spare time on that weekend , try it at Eiger with SS tires, reverse the toe and then 0 toe all around. The tune also works great at Akina ( Toscana Custom track used on GTP Touge Showdown ) - I have it on share, send me FR if you are interested, the track is great to test suspension setup, toe changes can be really felt on most corners.

Dude, how was this relevant to the quote at all? You've done that twice in this thread, and forgive me, but my OCD side won't let it go without me commenting on it.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Dude, how was this relevant to the quote at all? You've done that twice in this thread, and forgive me, but my OCD side won't let it go without me commenting on it.

Sorry, MB, I have been doing lots of testing and tuning the past month (2.09), experimenting with camber, toe, ARB, damper and spring on various cars ( FF, FR, MR, AWD, RR ) and seeing some post that have different findings lead me to have this urge to persuade them to at least give my tune a try and see how toe affect it's handling, like the R33 in particular, I ran all kinds of toe on it - even extreme ones like +1.00F -1.00R, while the rest are static, and the best is whats on the tune now.

 

[trackripper123]

Sorry, MB, I have been doing lots of testing and tuning the past month (2.09), experimenting with camber, toe, ARB, damper and spring on various cars ( FF, FR, MR, AWD, RR ) and seeing some post that have different findings lead me to have this urge to persuade them to at least give my tune a try and see how toe affect it's handling, like the R33 in particular, I ran all kinds of toe on it - even extreme ones like +1.00F -1.00R, while the rest are static, and the best is whats on the tune now.

Ah, gotcha. I would help you out, but as everyone knows, dead PS3.

 

[Stotty]

Stotty, please don't forget to try my R33 tune if you have spare time on that weekend , try it at Eiger with SS tires, reverse the toe and then 0 toe all around. The tune also works great at Akina ( Toscana Custom track used on GTP Touge Showdown ) - I have it on share, send me FR if you are interested, the track is great to test suspension setup, toe changes can be really felt on most corners.

I'll give it a go if I get chance.

Send me a friends request (GTP_Stotty) if you like... I'm away all week on business and likely I'll have forgotten about this by the time I get home Friday night (my memory is rubbish!).

Plus you'll also be able to try any of my cars on share and see what you think of my -ve toe wonders (or nightmares ).

 

[Motor City Hami]

Great discussion, but let's move this over to a new thread that can be added to the stickies and found later.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=7982490#post7982490