Analysing the AI behaviour and performance in GT6

[Z1-AV69]

As a follow-up to my previous test I ran another one with a bit different setting: It's again the 10 lap Ascari race in S-class, the car is again the 585 PP MP4-12C on sports soft (ABS:1, else off if that matters). I made sure to have again the Ferrari FXX, the Ferrari Enzo and the McLaren MP4-12C as leading AI, but couldn't get the exact same grid order, Bugatti on pole again though.
But this time my goal was to drop back to a 30 sec gap to the leader during the first laps and then maintain that gap of 30 sec until the end of lap 8. After the pitstop I came a little close as the gap dropped to 23 sec until I got the first split time to adjust to 30 sec again.
So at the end of lap 8 I was in 6th place ca. 30 sec behind the leader and only 2 laps to go. If the AI looks for my pace and slows down to let me win, at that point I would look deeply in need of it. Of course I wasn't and took the lead midway in the final lap.

These were the laptimes (hoping it works with formatting):

laps me 12C FXX Enzo
01. 2.27 2.20 2.17 2.21
02. 2.26 2.24 2.22 2.24
03. 2.27 2.24 2.28 2.25
04. 2.30 2.26 2.27 2.25
05. 2.32 2.22 2.22 2.24
06. 2.35 2.28 2.28 2.37
07. 2.28 2.41 2.51 2.50
08. 2.28 2.27 2.27 2.29
09. 2.06 2.28 2.27 2.30
10. 2.08 2.28 2.29 2.30

Total racetimes:
1. 24.24 me
2. 24.35 MP4-12C
3. 24.43 FXX
4. 25.01 Enzo

So while the race was a bit slower overall then my other tests, I don't think it's really significant. I also don't see any spooky things in the laptimes. In my first test the AI was a little quicker in the second part (to be precise in laps 6-8, later they were slower) despite my laptimes being very very similar in the first 5 laps and only laps 6-8 very different. Still: At the beginning of lap 9 I was so far back I see no chance the game could believe I still had a chance at that point.

So there might be some minor adjustment to player speed in that s-class race, but nothing really significant. It could be they speed up when you are close?

While maintaining my gap and cruising between the AI I could watch them a lot though. I can't remember the GT5 AI having so much trouble with worn tyres. If I remember right in GT5 they became very slow with worn tyres but could drive them basically down to 1 before making mistakes from it. In this race in GT6 the Ferrari 458 couldn't make it out of any slow corner without half spinning the car from on throttle oversteer after lap 3 on a set of tyres. Others with more power are even worse. They step on throttle without any "feel" for it. These mistakes create a big random factor in such a race, because they effect the other cars around too, who can either pass or are held up. One would have to run a lot of races to study any systematic in that.

[Edit:] After thinking more about it, my theory is AI is at least in S-class similar to GT5 b-pec Bobs. They overheat, cool down too much and they can get tired towards the end. They could even have different "character" or level each race and the combination of Bob-character and grid puts the random element in those races.

 

[snowgt]

I think there are several problems with the AI in GT6. Most of them have been there since GT5, but they have added some new ones.

• AI is the same as b-spec behaviour. In GT5 it already was ridiculous that when no other car was close by, the AI would slow down by 10 seconds per lap. This is not 'taking it easy', this is falling asleep at the wheel. Because of the unspeakable rubberband races, it's kind of hard to judge, if that is actually still part of AI behaviour.
  
  
• The rubberbanding actually makes racing a travesty. It's no problem, if you crash 3 times on the first lap, because all cars will slow down so much that it's sometimes easier to win that race than if you had lapped at a decent pace to begin with. Because the AI has slowed down so much and won't change their speed unless you are very close to them, you can often just fly by vastly overpowered cars, because you enter the range at which the AI's speed would increase so quickly that they can't defend. The rubberbanding is apparently not just executed like the emotion-bar of b-spec in GT5 was, because they are not even going full power when there's a straight and no obstacles anywhere near them.
  
  
• Collision avoiding tactics seem to have taken a turn for the worse. While the same GT5-problems with completely unwarranted braking at places where they should accelerate, like out of a corner when you were behind them in the "right" spot, are still there and to some degree worse than ever, it also seems that the AI has less of a problem ramming you than they had in GT5. You outbrake an AI car, and you're alongside and on the inside - they just turn in. You spin, they are much more likely to crash into you than they were in GT5. No idea what they unlearned for that to happen.

 

[bjosim]

Give option to disable the handicap algorithm and reduce slipstream effect is the way to go. Other things can be fixed along the way, but those two are the most important aspects because they remove authenticity.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Week old bump.

Just to show how bad the AI is, I took a (tuned) Skyline to Rome in the Turbo series and won handily while doing the whole race in reverse, without blocking, touching any other cars or wall grinding.

It's ridiculous that you can out brake and out handle the AI while driving backwards with forklift style handling. Saved the replay of course.

There are times where the AI are blantatly waiting to get on the power, there is no way I should be able to beat a Lotus Esprit 350 Sport on the same tires and with the same top speed on the straights.

 

[Samus]

Now that I want to see!

 

[FussyFez]

I'd like to try and move this thread onto a slightly more positive vibe.


I've been playing lfs alot recently, and been very impressed by the 'adaptive ai', that apparently, can learn how to be faster from your own lines.

Each AI keeps it's own memory and personality. Each time you race against it, it learns from its mistakes, where you gained, where it made a mistake etc.


Can anybody more tech savvy than myself explain how this sort of AI is implemented, and the difference between this, and what we have in GT?

Does this sort of AI need something that GT doesn't have?


Or is it truly simply the case that PD just choose to use the current type of AI, rather than an adaptive type like seen in LFS?

I must say, although the AI in lfs have got pace, they are rather clumsy, will go for gaps that don't exist on city tracks, and also bouncing off the armco a few times on exit , but I suppose this is to be expected from 'realistic' AI.

If we had this sort of AI, would people be happy? Or would people think that the AI were out to kill them?

 

[Tenacious D]

I was going to post something similarly related.

Forza 1 had bots named Drivatars that you taught to race by going through a series of hotlaps on various sections and whole tracks that had every type of road feature used in the game. T10 kind of resurrected this idea by having the bots assimilate the styles of racing from people in your buddy list or some such. And this hasn't been universally welcomed, as often the bots just race like reckless teenagers. It's a great idea but needs some filtering.

I had posted some time ago, and I believe others picked up on the idea, of having selected drivers of differing skill levels teach the GT7 bots how to race by assimilating the driver's inputs on a number of courses, perhaps all of them just to be sure. From this data, generate a "racer." Give him or her a name as is the case in GT5 and 6, and associate them with certain cars. If you pay attention to the bots in GT6, you'll notice that some of them are consistently faster than others, some in the middle, and the rest at the back. I've also noticed that in a five lap race, this results in a difference between first and last place of as much as a minute and a half! This really needs to change in GT7. The field needs to spread out some, but not to such ridiculous lengths.

The bots should be competitive but not unbeatable, depending on difficulty level, and you should feel as if you're in a real contest as you pick your way through the field. The pace should quicken a bit too as the race progresses, especially in that final push to the finish line. They should be going flat out, and scrambling for every tenths of a second advantage.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I was going to post something similarly related.

Forza 1 had bots named Drivatars that you taught to race by going through a series of hotlaps on various sections and whole tracks that had every type of road feature used in the game. T10 kind of resurrected this idea by having the bots assimilate the styles of racing from people in your buddy list or some such. And this hasn't been universally welcomed, as often the bots just race like reckless teenagers. It's a great idea but needs some filtering.

I had posted some time ago, and I believe others picked up on the idea, of having selected drivers of differing skill levels teach the GT7 bots how to race by assimilating the driver's inputs on a number of courses, perhaps all of them just to be sure. From this data, generate a "racer." Give him or her a name as is the case in GT5 and 6, and associate them with certain cars. If you pay attention to the bots in GT6, you'll notice that some of them are consistently faster than others, some in the middle, and the rest at the back. I've also noticed that in a five lap race, this results in a difference between first and last place of as much as a minute and a half! This really needs to change in GT7. The field needs to spread out some, but not to such ridiculous lengths.

The bots should be competitive but not unbeatable, depending on difficulty level, and you should feel as if you're in a real contest as you pick your way through the field. The pace should quicken a bit too as the race progresses, especially in that final push to the finish line. They should be going flat out, and scrambling for every tenths of a second advantage.

I'd like to try and move this thread onto a slightly more positive vibe.


I've been playing lfs alot recently, and been very impressed by the 'adaptive ai', that apparently, can learn how to be faster from your own lines.

Each AI keeps it's own memory and personality. Each time you race against it, it learns from its mistakes, where you gained, where it made a mistake etc.


Can anybody more tech savvy than myself explain how this sort of AI is implemented, and the difference between this, and what we have in GT?

Does this sort of AI need something that GT doesn't have?


Or is it truly simply the case that PD just choose to use the current type of AI, rather than an adaptive type like seen in LFS?

I must say, although the AI in lfs have got pace, they are rather clumsy, will go for gaps that don't exist on city tracks, and also bouncing off the armco a few times on exit , but I suppose this is to be expected from 'realistic' AI.

If we had this sort of AI, would people be happy? Or would people think that the AI were out to kill them?

I remember suggesting this about a year ago and IIRC I got shot down in flames for it not being feasible, though I don't recall why. Anyway, to me adaptive AI will become the standard for AI in next gen gaming IMO. It makes perfect sense to have the AI adapt to your pace and your style of driving, and also to have downloadable AI to mix things up a bit and inject different driving styles into your offline racing.

 

[FussyFez]

I remember suggesting this about a year ago and IIRC I got shot down in flames for it not being feasible, though I don't recall why. Anyway, to me adaptive AI will become the standard for AI in next gen gaming IMO. It makes perfect sense to have the AI adapt to your pace and your style of driving, and also to have downloadable AI to mix things up a bit and inject different driving styles into your offline racing.

Next gen?

The version of lfs I'm playing is atleast 3 years old...

I see no reason why the ps3 couldn't handle it, but I don't know about the technicalities of it all...

I know my laptop is beyond crap though, and that manages it.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Now that I want to see!

I made steaks in my other post, it wasn't the Turbo Series, it was the 500PP event. Anyway I went back and did it again, this time at a lower PP, I went with 500pp since that is what the event is called, even though tuning is allowed up to 600. Apologies for doing a mobile upload, that's all I can do for a while.

Ai use SS all round. I went with SS front, SM rear, ABS 1 only. You could probably win this with a totally stock car except the transmission.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I made steaks in my other post, it wasn't the Turbo Series, it was the 500PP event. Anyway I went back and did it again, this time at a lower PP, I went with 500pp since that is what the event is called, even though tuning is allowed up to 600. Apologies for doing a mobile upload, that's all I can do for a while.

Ai use SS all round. I went with SS front, SM rear, ABS 1 only. You could probably win this with a totally stock car except the transmission.

Awesome I wonder if this is what @Tenacious D means when he says some people actually have good races with the bots?💡

 

[Tenacious D]

and also to have downloadable AI to mix things up a bit

I had spooky thoughts of going to the top of leaderboards, and having the option to download the racing template of some Ayrton Senna to add to the list of bots. Or... yeah, maybe not.

By the way, I was remiss if I saw your posts being slagged and not come to your defense, because I've only known about Forza's Drivatars since 2006, and done my share of posting about them.

Awesome I wonder if this is what @Tenacious D means when he says some people actually have good races with the bots?💡

I do believe there is a thread full of people who do, Johnny, you just happen to not see it.

Edit: I should hasten to add that most of those people have fun racing the bots. On GT Planet, every positive GT thread attracts grinches.

 

[JTB10000]

I recommend racing them on Silverstone or Spa in Arcade Mode, infinite laps, using a stock GT3, GT300 or GT500 car. Those are the best races I've had with the A.I. Hopefully that's not because I suck, which is probably or probably not so.

 

[Samus]

Awesome I wonder if this is what @Tenacious D means when he says some people actually have good races with the bots?💡

I do believe there is a thread full of people who do, Johnny, you just happen to not see it.

Yes but we've already proven in this thread, they're not proper, competitive races as we know it. They're manipulated time trials, and for most people it doesn't constitute proper racing.

 

[Tenacious D]

Look, I decidedly did NOT say "proper racing." I said "good" racing - well, replied so. Let's try "enjoyable racing." I had scads of enjoyable races, you didn't, but we're different beings, and we enjoy different things. Or are you going to debate that too?

Now, maybe this is finally settled...

 

[Samus]

Well I thought we'd already agreed on what these events are in GT6 but I was just replying to your "just happen not to see it" comment. We've seen it, we just don't believe it to be good racing.

 

[Tenacious D]

Yes, but you know, some of us are getting tired of being informed, "You're not right" if we have something good or positive to say about GT6. As if your opinion is more significant than our own experiences.

We both don't care all that much about online racing. Suppose we get hounded by an online racing advocate, as they have the most fun ever racing against other humans, and insist that his opinion is correct. We know that online is essential these days for many games, racing in particular, and is a great time for those who like it. But that has nothing to do with what we like.

Suppose another insists that PC sims are much better than any Gran Turismo. Now, technically that's true. Physics are more refined, the polite cruise missiles won't slow down to let you win, the sounds will be at least somewhat better, online structure is better and so on. But for me, it's irrelevant. I find PC sims to be dry, uninvolving games with last gen graphics in HD, until this new crop of guys like P CARS comes along. As disappointing as GT6 can be in some areas, it's close to PC sims in physics and feel for me, I can manage to make the game enjoyable and competitive, and I get to tinker endlessly with cars I feel a sense of ownership for. Plus, watching the sun set on any track with time of day transitions is a sweet feeling I don't get in many games, especially on the Ring.

If KamilCader says that doing Arcade races on infinite laps makes GT6 a whole new game, is he right? Wrong? If we like it, does it matter what someone else thinks? Is it worth having a debate over?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes, but you know, some of us are getting tired of being informed, "You're not right" if we have something good or positive to say about GT6. As if your opinion is more significant than our own experiences.

We both don't care all that much about online racing. Suppose we get hounded by an online racing advocate, as they have the most fun ever racing against other humans, and insist that his opinion is correct. We know that online is essential these days for many games, racing in particular, and is a great time for those who like it. But that has nothing to do with what we like.

Suppose another insists that PC sims are much better than any Gran Turismo. Now, technically that's true. Physics are more refined, the polite cruise missiles won't slow down to let you win, the sounds will be at least somewhat better, online structure is better and so on. But for me, it's irrelevant. I find PC sims to be dry, uninvolving games with last gen graphics in HD, until this new crop of guys like P CARS comes along. As disappointing as GT6 can be in some areas, it's close to PC sims in physics and feel for me, I can manage to make the game enjoyable and competitive, and I get to tinker endlessly with cars I feel a sense of ownership for. Plus, watching the sun set on any track with time of day transitions is a sweet feeling I don't get in many games, especially on the Ring.

If KamilCader says that doing Arcade races on infinite laps makes GT6 a whole new game, is he right? Wrong? If we like it, does it matter what someone else thinks? Is it worth having a debate over?

As so often happens, you fail to see the larger point, even when it's pointed out to you again, and again, and again.

Well I thought we'd already agreed on what these events are in GT6 but I was just replying to your "just happen not to see it" comment. We've seen it, we just don't believe it to be good racing.

If you understood the difference between these two things, many of your long winded posts would be completely unnecessary.

A. You having fun with offline racing.
B. Proper offline racing. As in qualifying, standing starts, AI that don't quit on you, AI that are fast enough to be competitive with the same setup as you etc. etc. etc.

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can enjoy it all you want, no one is denying you your fun. Many of us just don't believe it's proper racing and once the illusion is broken, we can't just go on pretending that it is.

See, we can disagree and you can still be right. We both are right, we both win. See how that works? There's no need for you to constantly defend that you have fun with the game.

 

[Tenacious D]

And as is often the case you end up completely missing what I'm saying. If that's not enough, you keep correcting me on a point I never said. I.E., "proper racing." Never said a syllable about it.

Now just to be Captain Obvious about this so there's no question, this is my point and the point of my fellows in this vein.

GT6 has issues. The bots are frooky and with a comparable car it's too easy to win.

This is how we have found to make racing challenging and fun. Give it a shot.

That is all I and the others have said. All. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing "proper" involved whatsoever. Read into this post what you want, but I think I've been quite clear in what I've said for the past few months on this. Now please don't unsurprise me by posting in some form or fashion, "Well, but I'm right."

 

[TeamCZRRacing]

Since we're here I might as well post my findings on AI behavior at superspeedways. Surprisingly, this is quite realistic.

In no particular order:

• As with races at other tracks, AI will try to find and stay inside the draft until it feels it can pull off an overtaking maneuver.
• Big packs of AI cars will try to form themselves into drafting lines.
• They also seem to monitor the speed of drafting lines. If there's a line that's faster than theirs, they will find a hole and slip into it, or try to push other cars out of the way. Accidents can result from this, but usually the player is the one who's caught out.
• If the pack has sorted itself into drafting lines, then an AI who finds itself far behind the leader of the line will slam into the leader in an effort to push it to the front of the pack.
• AI cars are capable of bump drafting each other (pushing the car in front of them in an effort to achieve slipstream-like speeds without actually having to draft) for brief periods, which can cause the tide of the race to change.
• Once out front and clear of other AI, an AI leading the race will keep within two to three car-widths of the right-hand wall in the turns so as to try to string the other cars out, making a slingshot move less likely. Unfortunately, this usually doesn't work unless the leading AI is being pushed by the player.
• The AI aren't afraid of making maverick moves for position, but they never go below the yellow line at Daytona or the white line on the back straight at Indy. This is realistic as such moves are penalized in NASCAR and other oval-based racing series.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And as is often the case you end up completely missing what I'm saying. If that's not enough, you keep correcting me on a point I never said. I.E., "proper racing." Never said a syllable about it.

Now just to be Captain Obvious about this so there's no question, this is my point and the point of my fellows in this vein.

GT6 has issues. The bots are frooky and with a comparable car it's too easy to win.

This is how we have found to make racing challenging and fun. Give it a shot.

That is all I and the others have said. All. Nothing more, nothing less, nothing "proper" involved whatsoever. Read into this post what you want, but I think I've been quite clear in what I've said for the past few months on this. Now please don't unsurprise me by posting in some form or fashion, "Well, but I'm right."

It is so difficult to discuss anything with you. I did not say that you said anything about proper racing, I said, and I quote, "If you understood the difference between these two things, many of your long winded posts would be completely unnecessary."

Because you continually make long winded and completely unnecessary posts stating that you have fun with the AI which no one disputes. I am 100% certain that you have fun with the AI and so is everyone else on GTP. Wonderful, great, glorious. Point conceded now and forever more. The rest of us are having a discussion here, there and everywhere else, about the general effectiveness of the AI as it relates to proper racing.

Take your GT Martyr hat off someday and you'll see that when some of us say we don't think the bots provide good racing, it does not negate the fact that you have fun with it. Nerfing your car 50PP and changing to wooden tires and then arriving at the finish line just ahead of the AI is fun for you, to some of us that's not racing at all. You having fun with the AI and the AI sucking the hind one, are not mutually exclusive.

 

[John_Marsten]

It is with a heavy heart that I have given up on GT6 for this very reason. The AI is pathetic (as you are all well aware). I tried and tried to be optimistic in the hope that they would improve. If GT7 is not a MASSIVE improvement, Kaz will no longer be getting my dollars.

 

[Imari]

Take your GT Martyr hat off someday and you'll see that when some of us say we don't think the bots provide good racing, it does not negate the fact that you have fun with it. Nerfing your car 50PP and changing to wooden tires and then arriving at the finish line just ahead of the AI is fun for you, to some of us that's not racing at all. You having fun with the AI and the AI sucking the hind one, are not mutually exclusive.

@Johnnypenso You sir, are a scholar and a saint.

 

[NOSWaster]

I'm just popping in here to say a couple of things. I know the AI usually sandbags and it's a case of "catch the rabbit."
I randomly decided to have a go in arcade racing. 10 laps at SSR5 with AI set to professional. I picked the BMW M3 GT because I've never driven the car. I figured I should try it!

After about three laps, every car was behind me and a barely managed to overtake the FTO STC. Then on about lap four, I see some car creeping up behind me. To my surprise it was the XJ220 from earlier in the race! So I stay the course and continue racing, and as we get onto lap six he's consistently getting up next to me and passing at the end of the straight or being roughly 0.4s behind. It was actually good fun to have the AI chasing me so closely. I had to drive almost balls-to-the-wall, but not push so hard that I spin. Come the final two corners and there he is, about 1 second behind me. I fishtail right before that sweeping right-hander to lead onto the straight. He must have gained a couple of tenths, and he immediately caught my draft. I crossed the line about 0.4 seconds before he did.

I had on racing hard tires and TCS at 0 with SRF, ASM, AS, and Drive Line off.
That was probably my best race against the AI. I'm going to save the replay.

One thing to note: I did have a couple of near-spins, so that may have accounted for the AI staying so close.

I can share the replay here if anyone wants!

 

[Tired Tyres]

It's all fake mate. I've had loads of super close race "wins" The AI is programmed to deliberately not pass you at the end.

 

[NOSWaster]

It's all fake mate. I've had loads of super close race "wins" The AI is programmed to deliberately not pass you at the end.

The thing is the AI car was flying up on my just as fast as every other lap, and actually was going faster than mine as we crossed the finish. It pulled out of the draft going full steam. I'll check the replay real quick... after I style a bunch of cars in color shift paint.

If the AI had been using that XJ220 Race Car to its full potential the entire race, I wouldn't have has a chance at all. It's a shame, honestly. >.<

 

[Samus]

The AI cars being up your bumper is thanks to rubberbanding. If you drop behind them they start going slow again. That might be great for some people, but for others that want more human behaviour it's pretty poor.

Like I said earlier in this thread a great demonstration of this is the Ford GT old vs new lap on Nurburgring in S-Class. If you overtake it as soon as you can it will be on your bumper the entire lap pretty much and will finish itself in a time quick enough for gold. Sit behind it on purpose however and it'll be 1min30 slower than before.

I've no proof but I'd be inclined to believe when the AI are behind and using the catch up rubberband they're not running with the same physics as you. If they are, it means PD are capable of programming genuinely fast AI but choose only to use it when you're in the lead.

 

[Tenacious D]

It's all fake mate. I've had loads of super close race "wins" The AI is programmed to deliberately not pass you at the end.

My replay files have a number of races in which I was passed by the second place bot in a sprint to the finish that I lost. Now, admittedly these are due to techniques KamilCader and I use to "wake the bots up," but I think this indicates an area of promise for further development in GT7.

 

[NOSWaster]

Alright, I went through my replay and the second place car near the finish suddenly went half-throttle. I would have rather lost by a tiny margin than win like that.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Alright, I went through my replay and the second place car near the finish suddenly went half-throttle. I would have rather lost by a tiny margin than win like that.

Happens all the time. Happens to @Tenacious D too, he just doesn't realize it