Do you believe in God?

[Sureboss]

Pako, your link gives a 403 Forbidden error message.

Do you use an Apple mac?

 

[Patrik]

One thing is for sure.. I don't believe in any god or anything, and I'm completely heatlhy, have a lot of friends, a healthy family and so on. In my opinion religion is made up rubbish, but that's me all right..

What do you who are religious think the consequence will be because of the fact I'm not into any religion?

 

[Joey D]

Do you use an Apple mac?

No.

 

[Bram Turismo]

One thing is for sure.. I don't believe in any god or anything, and I'm completely heatlhy, have a lot of friends, a healthy family and so on. In my opinion religion is made up rubbish, but that's me all right..

Well, I think the religious people aren't exactly sitting behind their computers, screaming "Burn in hell you unreligious bastard!"

I do not have any religion either, but I do fully respect people who have a religion. I don't exactly go and think religious people are fools, nor do I think religion is pointless. People may find reason for life in religion.

What do you who are religious think the consequence will be because of the fact I'm not into any religion?

Nothing, I expect religious people to have respect for every single individual that is not religious, just as people without a religion, like me, have repect for religious people

 

[Joey D]

Nothing, I expect religious people to have respect for every single individual that is not religious, just as people without a religion, like me, have repect for religious people

You'd expect that but it rarely happens that way. All to often people who are religious feel the need to save those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

 

[Patrik]

You'd expect that but it rarely happens that way. All to often people who are religious feel the need to save those who don't subscribe to their beliefs.

True. Jehova's Witnesses would be the best example!

 

[Joey D]

True. Jehova's Witnesses would be the best example!

The same can be said about atheist though, many of them try to save the religious people from their "ignorance" of belief. Honestly I think people on both sides have no reason to try to convert one another. I enjoy a good debate about religion, but I know people believe what they believe for a reason and I can't change that.

===

Maybe this thread needs to be merged with the other major religion thread?

 

[sn00pie]

The same can be said about atheist though, many of them try to save the religious people from their "ignorance" of belief. Honestly I think people on both sides have no reason to try to convert one another. I enjoy a good debate about religion, but I know people believe what they believe for a reason and I can't change that.

===

Maybe this thread needs to be merged with the other major religion thread?

Oh believe me, everything that is covered in the last six pages, and will be from here on end is already covered at length in that thread. And then some. In duplicate. Twice.

We'll keep this thread fresh and seperate for a while until things get really really redundant.

 

[BayConRong]

What makes you think they would say burn in hell?

howz about: "Hope you get reborn as a snail!"?

 

[Skynyrd1977]

I don't really see how a bunch of Bible verses explain what salvation is nor do I understand why a man dying and then coming back to life saves the people of the world. I've honestly never gotten a straight answer on why "Jesus died for us" although I am contently harassed by Bible thumpers to make me accept that. I'll never say they are flat out wrong for believing what they do though since I can not prove it false, but on the same token they can not prove what they believe is true. This is why I'm agnostic, I don't know and I don't see how anyone can really know either one way or another.

This is a good question, I'll make an attempt at a simple explanation.

God made certain rules. Do not sin is a biggie. The penalty for sin is death. No heaven for you. But because He loves us so much and wants us with Him in heaven, He became a man, who never sinned, and opted via free will to pay the penalty of death for everyone by dying for us, even though he was innocent. It is a gift from Him, offered to all, but one must choose to accept it in order to cash it in.

Another way it has been described: It's like a judge who convicts his daughter of speeding and fines her the prescribed penalty of $100. To be an honest judge he cannot just let her go because she was guilty. But he loves her, so he takes off his robe, goes down to his daughter, takes $100 out of his pocket, places it on the table, and says please accept this. It's still her choice to pick up the money or not.

Over simplification maybe, but just for the sake of concept explanation.

 

[homeforsummer]

This is a good question, I'll make an attempt at a simple explanation.

God made certain rules. Do not sin is a biggie. The penalty for sin is death. No heaven for you. But because He loves us so much and wants us with Him in heaven, He became a man, who never sinned, and opted via free will to pay the penalty of death for everyone by dying for us, even though he was innocent. It is a gift from Him, offered to all, but one must choose to accept it in order to cash it in.

Another way it has been described: It's like a judge who convicts his daughter of speeding and fines her the prescribed penalty of $100. To be an honest judge he cannot just let her go because she was guilty. But he loves her, so he takes off his robe, goes down to his daughter, takes $100 out of his pocket, places it on the table, and says please accept this. It's still her choice to pick up the money or not.

Over simplification maybe, but just for the sake of concept explanation.

I'm not religious in any way, shape or form, and I don't feel the need to believe in any God either. I simply have no need for religion, or belief in God, or Jesus, and I'm quite happy with scientific explanations for things that Christians believe happened due to God.

All of that said, those two paragraphs above make more sense as a way of describing Jesus' death than over a dozen years of religious education in two different Catholic schools. So for that you get one heck of a lot of kudos from me 👍

 

[Gil]

In further explanation:
In the old testament the "chosen" people would have a "day of atonement". Usually presided over by a priest.
On that day they would make a sacrifice of blood, usually by killing some animal, such as a lamb burning it on an alter for forgiveness of sin.
I.E. the blood of the innocent animal stands for us as a payment for sin instead of having to give up our own blood. (Good thing there was no SPCA then).

Christ lived a perfect life on this Earth, and suffered and died, not for his sins, but as the innocent "blood of a lamb" for our sins, and to provide redemption for us, and a more direct line of communication to God, thru prayer.
This is symbolized in the Bible by the "rending of the veil" between where the lay people worshipped, and where the priest(s) interceded in the "holy of holies" which was behind a veil or curtain.

As far as trying to convert the "unbelievers" Christians are directed to take the gospel to all, via the "Great Commision". (See the last verse of the book of Matthew)

I will agree that some Christians take it to the limit. As I understand the Bible, we are to take the word to all, not to beat them to death with it.

The reason that a lot of people are so adamant about converting their friends and neighbors is that a lot of us have been taught that unbelievers will be cast into Hell.
They simply do not want such a fate to befall people that they care about.

The Bible also says in Matthew 10:32 that those that acknowledge Jesus as Lord will be acknowledged by him to the Father.
It goes on to say that those that deny Jesus, will be denied by Jesus, when it comes time to choose sides for the Heaven vs Hell softball teams.

 

[Sureboss]

No.

You missed my joke.

Forbidden
Apple
Thread about God

Geddit?

 

[Joey D]

This is a good question, I'll make an attempt at a simple explanation.

God made certain rules. Do not sin is a biggie. The penalty for sin is death. No heaven for you. But because He loves us so much and wants us with Him in heaven, He became a man, who never sinned, and opted via free will to pay the penalty of death for everyone by dying for us, even though he was innocent. It is a gift from Him, offered to all, but one must choose to accept it in order to cash it in.

Another way it has been described: It's like a judge who convicts his daughter of speeding and fines her the prescribed penalty of $100. To be an honest judge he cannot just let her go because she was guilty. But he loves her, so he takes off his robe, goes down to his daughter, takes $100 out of his pocket, places it on the table, and says please accept this. It's still her choice to pick up the money or not.

Over simplification maybe, but just for the sake of concept explanation.

Hmmm still doesn't make sense to me, why did Jesus have to die in order for us to be saved? I understand how the judge thing works but I still can not grasp why Jesus died for us. I'm not knocking your beliefs, I'm genuinely curious why this is.

In further explanation:
In the old testament the "chosen" people would have a "day of atonement". Usually presided over by a priest.
On that day they would make a sacrifice of blood, usually by killing some animal, such as a lamb burning it on an alter for forgiveness of sin.
I.E. the blood of the innocent animal stands for us as a payment for sin instead of having to give up our own blood. (Good thing there was no SPCA then).

Ah so Jesus sacrificed himself to remove the sins of the Earth, is this why his is often symbolised as a lamb? This makes sense in a way I suppose.

As far as trying to convert the "unbelievers" Christians are directed to take the gospel to all, via the "Great Commision". (See the last verse of the book of Matthew)

I will agree that some Christians take it to the limit. As I understand the Bible, we are to take the word to all, not to beat them to death with it.

The reason that a lot of people are so adamant about converting their friends and neighbors is that a lot of us have been taught that unbelievers will be cast into Hell.
They simply do not want such a fate to befall people that they care about.

The same can be said about atheists as well, many of them feel that they need to convert people away from a path of false belief. I honestly don't think either way can be justified. I don't think highly of missionaries at all because I think they destroy cultures. As I've said people believe what they believe for a reason and I don't think they should push their beliefs on other no matter what they are. If someone comes to you seeking answers though I see no reason to inform them of your view point.

You missed my joke.

Forbidden
Apple
Thread about God

Geddit?

oh.....oh.....OHHHHHHHHH I get it now .

 

[Patrik]

Just a question: Why do you think it has become that so many Americans deeply believe in god? Because it IS huge difference from over here.

Take "God bless America" for example. On the day we say "God bless Sweden" over here, we're in another universe!

I was watching some Daytona 500 on Youtube the other day. During the opening ceremony there was a lady who said a prayer, and much of the croud and team staff closed their eyes and held their right hand over the heart. This would never EVER happen here. If you hear something about god in Sweden, you're probably in church.

How can this be?

No offence. I like America, I'm just curious about this.

 

[Danoff]

This is also intresting. Sweden has been in peace almost as long as USA has excisted.

How can this be?

Concerted effort. It has nothing to do with religion. In recent times, Sweden has simply allowed the US to fight for it.

I'm not religious at all, but your argument doesn't hold water.

Edit: Also, some claim Sweden was on the wrong side of WWII

 

[Patrik]

Edit: Also, some claim Sweden was on the wrong side of WWII

Yeah, that may be true.. I admit we're sissys sometimes.

Let's skip the war thingy then. *Removes it from the earlier post*

 

[Gil]

In point of fact: one of the tenets that the US was founded upon was being able to worship as one chose to.
The people that became Americans were seeking freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

They left England because the king of the period was cutting the heads off of people who didn't adhere to the beliefs of the church of England.

And as far as the rightness or wrongness of my being a part of a group that chooses to believe in God and do what the Bible tells us is his will: You don't have to save us from our beliefs.

If I'm wrong, when I'm dead, I'm done. I'll have lived a good life, and probably been good to some people that did not deserve it, but ultimately it made my character that much stronger. And perhaps, one more person will think enough of me to cry at my funeral.

If I'm right, I'll open my eyes in Heaven, hopefully, after I die. I won't be in the position of saying "Damn!! all those f'n Christians were right! Where in the heck is my SPF 9000?!?!"

Personally, I figure my "bets are hedged".
The non-belief way of existence doesn't hedge any bets.

I've personally witnessed enough "miracles" to believe that there is some "higher power" out there watching over me and mine....

 

[Patrik]

I've personally witnessed enough "miracles" to believe that there is some "higher power" out there watching over me and mine....

Examples?

 

[TheCracker]

This is a good question, I'll make an attempt at a simple explanation.

God made certain rules. Do not sin is a biggie. The penalty for sin is death. No heaven for you. But because He loves us so much and wants us with Him in heaven, He became a man, who never sinned, and opted via free will to pay the penalty of death for everyone by dying for us, even though he was innocent. It is a gift from Him, offered to all, but one must choose to accept it in order to cash it in.

You'll have to excuse me, it's been a long time since i've ever read anything from the Bible, Where is it writen that God made these rules - based on the 10 commandments i guess?

 

[Duke]

In point of fact: one of the tenets that the US was founded upon was being able to worship as one chose to.
The people that became Americans were seeking freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

Some were, some weren't. The Massachussetts Bay colony was. The Jamestown colonists weren't here for religious freedom at all - they were here for territory and resources. After the Revolution, the Fathers were also smart enough to include the Establishment Clause in the Constitution, which goes a long way to convince me that they weren't here to create a new country based on their religion. Not to mention much of the personal writing by Jefferson, Henry, Adams, et al.

And as far as the rightness or wrongness of my being a part of a group that chooses to believe in God and do what the Bible tells us is his will: You don't have to save us from our beliefs.

That's fine - but don't try to save us from our non-belief. Speaking non-personally, of course, because I know you are no evangelist, Gil.

Personally, I figure my "bets are hedged".
The non-belief way of existence doesn't hedge any bets.

Pascal's Wager is a lousy bet.

 

[TheCracker]

Pascal's Wager is a lousy bet.

Especially if Allah is the only 'real' god.

 

[Duke]

Especially if Allah is the only 'real' god.

Or some yet-unidentified god that no one has even thought of...

Hell, even the Old Testament Jehovah is not going to be very pleased that you believed in Him to "hedge your bets"... then again, He doesn't seem to be pleased by much of anything.

 

[JacoJa]

No, I don't. I stay clear away from any form of religion.
It's completely unnecessary in my opinion.
Imagine the amount of wars which would not have taken place if there wasn't religion. Just about all of them? I just don't see any positives from it.

 

[TheCracker]

I just don't see any positives from it.

What about the free wine and crackers at communion?

 

[JacoJa]

Oh yes . And plenty of bread 👍

 

[Gil]

Examples?

Keeping in mind, that I live a hop, skip, and jump from Missouri, and should have been born there with my natural skepticism...

My Mother in Law who was near deaf due to MS, was healed, regained much of her hearing. We believe this to be due to intercessory prayer.

Another family friend was healed of Arthritis so bad that she couldn't close her hands. During a prayer session, the color came back into her upper extrmities, and she was able to do tasks that required extremely fine motor control.

I've seen more than one person that was "hobbled-up" go to the alter for prayer, run around the sanctuary after a "healing touch". These were people I knew, not "plants" in the audience.

SO, I surmise that if there is power in prayer to heal, someone is doing the healing. I choose to believe it's God.

Oh, and my belief is not merely to hedge my bets. Though it is a very small selling point.
I know some very good people that do not believe in God, or do, but don't believe in organized religion.

With people like Fred Phelps, and some others, I can see why.
I also know that most people don't want some man that claims to know what's what telling them how to live their lives.
If you are in a church like that, get out now.
A true pastor's job is to help and guide. But it is the Christian's responsibility to read and study the Bible for him or herself, not just take the word without any question from some preacher.

 

[Danoff]

It seems these threads always happen this way. They're started by someone who hasn't read the many many pages of writing on the subject. Then the person who starts the thread gets bored with it and moves on while us regulars retype our old arguments for each other with the misguided notion that we're at least having a discussion with new members.

*sigh*

Gil, is that really the standard of proof for you? If one of those same people told you that they were taking an herbal organic pill that cured them of their ailment would you believe them?

Gah! I'm still doing it!

 

[Sureboss]

How about the people who weren't healed by prayer? I imagine quite a few in the WTC were praying their hearts out. On a personal note. I asked to be healed by prayer (quite a while back), nowt happened, bar me "seeing the light" (sorry) and becoming an Atheist.

 

[Skynyrd1977]

Absolutely 100% totally completely I do. A world with a Judeo-Christian God is a world built on fear of reward and punishment, a world where we are not in final control of our environment and destiny. A world without God is a world of hope, a world where human beings can have a final say in their destiny – a world where you’re not doomed for believing in the wrong thing, not doomed because you stick your ding-dong in the wrong place, not doomed because you’re a rebellious child, not doomed because you’re not allowed to use stem cell research, not doomed because you were born to the wrong racial group, not doomed because of some “plan” by a being who could help you but instead doesn’t and prefers that you suffer. There is nothing more beautiful than the fact that there is no God, because it means hope for mankind to vastly reduce human suffering, because instead of dealing with the horrific laws of God, we only have to deal with the laws of nature.

But Sage, you point out only the negative you see, which is shaped by your viewpoint. In other words, you don't like God's rules, so he's bad.

What about the positive elements that have shaped history by those who practice what Jesus teaches. Christians following Christ's teaching of “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” have established hospitals, welfare agencies, orphanages, charities, relief agencies, universities … and fought for prison reform, abolition of slavery, better education, and treatment for alcoholics.

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."...how is this not hope filled and good?

Science does not allow faith. A scientist cannot use faith in his research. Therefore, if someone questioned their beliefs the way a scientist questions his research, faith is precluded. It's inherent in the principles of scientific research.
Again, there is no arguing that statement, please do not try (again).

**temptation...no.**
Danoff, could you explain this a little more, not sure I follow?

out of curiosity how does inviting god (God?) into your heart increase your self esteem? (at least that's how I read it)

Not self esteem, more like a spirit of love fills you.

Hmmm still doesn't make sense to me, why did Jesus have to die in order for us to be saved? I understand how the judge thing works but I still can not grasp why Jesus died for us. I'm not knocking your beliefs, I'm genuinely curious why this is.

The same can be said about atheists as well, many of them feel that they need to convert people away from a path of false belief. I honestly don't think either way can be justified. I don't think highly of missionaries at all because I think they destroy cultures. As I've said people believe what they believe for a reason and I don't think they should push their beliefs on other no matter what they are. If someone comes to you seeking answers though I see no reason to inform them of your view point.

If Jesus did not die to pay the penalty, then God could not sentence the deserving unrepentant sinners to death. It would not be fair, he is pure righteousness.

You'll have to excuse me, it's been a long time since i've ever read anything from the Bible, Where is it writen that God made these rules - based on the 10 commandments i guess?

Throughout the entire Bible are statements of law, this one is Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

...Imagine the amount of wars which would not have taken place if there wasn't religion. Just about all of them? I just don't see any positives from it.

Not so sure , I would say more are about land control, conquering other countries, and racism/genicide than religion.

Positives? I repeat: hospitals, welfare agencies, orphanages, charities, relief agencies, universities … How about the Red Cross? YMCA? Church volunteer organizations? Samaritans Purse?