NEW Release GTEYE Progressive Brake Spring Mod for G25 G27

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by GTEYE, Jan 27, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NIXIM

    Doncaster UK

    Well of course if it was long enough the internal spring guides would cut it, thats exactly what happened with the first NIXIM mod.

    So in the second version we uprated the actual spring and made it into a two stage spring and reduced the rubber buffer from 35 to 25mm in length. As previously mentioned this means the spring itself is giving some of the feel we want, with the final rapid stiffness being given by the rubber buffer.

    Overall with the NIXIM 2, the pedal at its fullest travel requires a little more pressure than the GTEYE, if this is felt to be too strong then the buffer can be trimmed to reduce the foot pressure rquired.
    If you do not use the buffer then the foot pressure required at full stroke is about 25% less with the NIXIM 2 mod compared to GTEYE, - which sort of makes a mockery of his comments.

    Also the first stage of the NIXIM 2 is 25% lower than the GTEYE first stage. This is important because the initial pressure in all real brake pedals starts from virtually zero because at first you are only pressing a spring which returns a real brake pedal to its rest position. Then as the gap from the brake disc to the brake pads closes that it when you feel the pedal start to really stiffen.
    Any further movement in the pedal requires rapidly increasing foot pressure which is taken care of by the second stage of the NIXIM spring - finally backed up by the buffer. Presumably this is exactly why you feel the need to use a rubber buffer type modification yourself - in effect mimicking the NIXIM mod, yeah?

    GT EYE have tried to accomplish this without the buffer but the effect is impossible to achieve with just a simple spring alone no matter how many stages it has, we know - we have tried many various systems for many years, this for our own product development not for the Logi G27 mod alone.

    The wider the difference in foot pressure from the start of pedal movement to its fullest travel - the more the driver has to work with in terms of feel, which in turn makes it easier to find the point of threshold braking.
    The stiffer the pedal is to begin with and softer it is at its fullest travel means that the driver has less to work with in terms of feel or feedback, this is the problem with the stock spring.

    Of course the GTeye spring is better than stock in the same way that the NIXIM 2 without the buffer is better than stock, but with the buffer the NIXIM 2 is much better because of the bigger change in spring rate. Otherwise why would we go to the extent of buying a sheet of rubber costing hundreds of pounds to spend time and effort making those little rubber buffers.
    It may only be a little peice of rubber to you, but to us it is a considerable investment - but it gives the pedal the feel we think it needs to help with high performance driving.

    Obviously you feel the same because you have found your own piece of rubber to put in the GTEYE spring. Agreed?

    You may not appreciate it, but the NIXIM 2 mod is better because the initial spring rate is much lower than the GTEYE mod so you have less to work with in terms of feel, though as I said still much better than the stock setup.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  2. @ nixim...

    totally agree it's definitely better with buffer, one of the reasons I didn't get nixim spring was I didn't like the review that showed the inside of the pedal cutting into the ENDS of the rubber??

    Also thought the stiffness of gteye spring would more suit me more... each to their own i suppose.

    would be awesome if both springs came with two different grades of a tougher more durable rubber.
     
  3. NIXIM

    Doncaster UK

    As I said thats why we shortened the buffer to 25mm, so this cutting effect should not happen anymore - and as far as we are aware it doesn't.

    Glad to see you found your own solution anyway.

    Dave
     
  4. GTEYE

    Site Sponsor
    Australia Melbourne

    OK, My turn.

    NIXIM, To respond to your recent comments suggesting that I have merely copied your idea to add a progressive rate spring to the brake pedal. You seem to be of the opinion that you are the only person who has the right to make this modification. What about the other commercially available option, the ARC brake mod with progressive spring? Would you like to take credit for their work as well?

    There is a clear difference between copying and marketplace competition.
    Where would we be today without Coca Cola and Pepsi?

    You might be interested to know that I have never actually tested your product, I have in fact tested some other modifications, such as ARC Mod, Load Cell and adding various spongy medium to the inside of the brake spring.

    Due to the fact that I design springs for a living, I have nothing to gain from basing my designs on your spring, I have the ability to develop my own spring which I have perfected over time to deliver what myself and many of my valued customers will agree is an uncompromised solution to the recognised pitfalls of the original pedal feel.

    If I did in fact copy your idea, I would also be selling a questionable piece of rubber, of which you have admitted yourself can crumble apart and has failed on at least a few occasions.

    Have you ever considered offering replacements under warranty or a product recall to the customers that have been let down by the failure of your early modification?:nervous:

    You claim to have had my spring independantly tested.
    In this case, you should be able to see that the performance does in fact match the graph which I make freely available for all to see.
    Contrary to your assumption, the GTEYE spring is a Triple Rate Spring, this is clear to see in the graph (3 distinct curve changes) and is further supported by a copy of the original test data that is always supplied along with the GTEYE installation instructions upon purchase.

    What you have done within this forum is undeniably recognised as slander and defamation, having made false accusations against me (GTEYE) singling me as an individual, worse still having published false and misleading information upon your own website specifically mentioning the GTEYE brand.

    May I suggest you focus upon your own products and get over the reality of marketplace competition.

    I have designed my spring to what I believe works well, you sell a different spring with a different configuration together with a rubber buffer, and there are numerous other companies and individuals who also offer an array of other choices to acheive a similar result. Everyone may have a difference of opinion on what works best.

    This is sim-racing afterall, the very nature of it is competitive.

    Good day to you.
     
  5. CarBastard

    Colombia Bogota,Colombia
    PSN:GTP_ARP93

    Apparently, this thread is heating up and both parties insist in ther side of the story. May I suggest again, to both Nixim and GTEYE, that you submit both your products to sim-racing media outlets? I know the Nixim has been on ISR but not the "V2" spring mod, and that GTeye hasn't. I mean, if you guys do this everybody wins. Customers get to know which one is better or more suited to their needs and both can get a significant boost in sales (well, depending on how does your product fare in the reviews. But, if both products are as good as you say you shouln't fear a negative result).

    For what it's worth, I'll repeat that my experience with the GTEYE spring is far from being "low quality". His seller feedback on eBay supports this claim. I have no affiliation with GTeye besides being a pleased customer, in case someone is wondering.

    Last thing I want to remind you guys is to keep it classy and factual. Please, keep the arguments that have no solid foundations out of here and support each claim with cold hard facts and evidences. There are few things us customers hate more than being lied to and treated like idiots.
     
  6. itrdc5

    Premium
    Australia Melbourne

    I think I had an even more human touch. Ordered it via eBay but it was delivered in person to my letterbox. :)

    Anyway, before I put it into the pedals that it is meant to go in to, I thought I'd give it a test as a TH8 RS handbrake spring. (I currently use a G27 brake spring in my TH8 RS handbrake)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL7fWi8E3O8 Fits well, works well, so there you go, it can also be a TH8 RS handbrake mod spring :D
     
  7. roflcoptor

    United Kingdom Blackburn, Lancashire, UK

    Interesting topic, with some interesting viewpoints, particularly from the two parties concerned.

    Without wishing to get too involved, I'll just say that I ordered, received, and fitted the Nixim spring, simply because it was the more "established" brand, and also being a UK supplier it made more sense for me, living in the UK.

    I was more than happy with the results, it was simple to fit and did what it promised. I don't find the pedal too hard to use without shoes either. Brake control is far better, it's an effort to lock the brakes up now, there's a real progreesive feel to the pedal.

    Regardless of whose spring is (arguably) better, it's a certainty that either of them will be far better than the original Logitech one.
     
  8. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    I am giving myself a few more days of practice before I do some more timed testing, but I can provide a quick update.

    I received the GTeye spring exactly 2 weeks after placing the order. It was shipped in a simple package. The instructions were emailed to me the same night I had placed the order – a very well put together PDF with colour pictures. I like colour pictures. Very clear and easy to understand.
    Installation only required 2 tools, a Philips screwdriver and a 2.5 mm allen key. My allan keys are part of a flip open set and as such I could not complete the installation without 1 extra step. Well, actually more than 1 step. I had to remove the brake pedal from the base unit. This is a very simple procedure involving 4 screws and 3 wires. Inside Sim Racing has a nice video showing how this is done (Nixim install). Taking my time, and including re and re of the brake pedal , it took me just about 40 minutes for installation.

    First impressions…wow. I am not going back to the stock spring. Braking feels so much more real now. It’s actually a bit stronger than I was expecting. There is definitely a learning curve. I have done a couple of 1 hour races wearing socks without a problem or undue stress or fatigue. The biggest difference I have noticed performance wise is in street cars with comfort tires or sport tires. Where it was very common for me to accidently over brake and cook the tires or spin out, I find myself braking “just enough”. Due to the progression etc, I have to really want to take the braking to 100%. It doesn’t happen by accident anymore. I’m actually enjoying running around on cs tires now. I know there is some debate regarding which spring to go with. I’ll be testing the Nixim soon but I imagine that is should be comparable to the GTeye. Once you have made a decision, don’t put it off. I didn’t realize how bad the original spring is until I changed it out.
    Timed sessions will be done once I have received and tested the Nixim mod.
     
  9. CarBastard

    Colombia Bogota,Colombia
    PSN:GTP_ARP93

    I'm really looking forward to your review comparing both products. Please, try to be as objective as possible :tup:.

    Also, I've felt exactly what you describe with my GTeye mod. I haven't done much seat time lately but having tried the new spring with RACE 07 I can tell that it's fit for the most demanding sims you throw at it. A really great quality product and I'm not the only one who seems to think so.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  10. Serjury

    United States Waco, TX
    PSN:Serjury

    I'm most likely going to order GTEYE springs soon. To be clear, the only reason I'm posting to say so is because any inclination I may have had to look into NIXIM's product was destroyed by their childish representation in this thread.

    edit: sooner, rather than later. Order placed.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2012
  11. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    Had a bit of time to do some testing today, so here it is.

    In addition to my first impressions:

    After about a week of testing, the stiffer spring now feels completely natural to me. It's very easy to hit the brakes "just enough" even in panic situations. I had a 4 hour session at one point and had no effects from fatigue. No issue wearing socks, but shoes might be nice to try out. I was surprised to notice such a big improvement using the X1s. I don't spend much time on the brakes, but I guess when I was braking, I over braked less resulting in higher exit speeds out of corners. And then there was the Elise - I don't normally drive street cars / street tire without abs, but I prefer it as long as the brake balance is right. Results below. Nixim mod to be tested when it arrives.

    Nixim - to be tested

    I did a few 5 lap test races to record times before upgrading to the GTeye brake spring. All testing was done as follows:
    No Aids, ABS on zero, on line lobby, track edge / grip on REAL, Tire Wear and Fuel OFF, Race cars on Racing Soft Tires. Elise 111R on Sport Soft Tires. I usually allowed 5 warm up laps prior to starting a 5 lap race. The exception was with the Elise. I have never used it without ABS and therefore needed about 12 laps to get a feel for it and set the Brake Balance to 4/1.

    Results prior to upgrade: ------------ ------ GTeye
    F2007 at Spa ------------ -------- F2007 at Spa
    Session Best Time 1:41.323 ------------ Session Best Time 1:41.208
    Race Laps ------------ ----------- Race Laps
    1 1:43.330 ------------ ----------- 1 1:44.472
    2 1:42.972 ------------ ----------- 2 1:41.602
    3 1:43.069 ------------ ----------- 3 1:41.793
    4 1:41.323 ------------ ----------- 4 1:41.433
    5 1:41.408 ------------ ----------- 5 1:41.208
    ------------ -----------
    F10 at Nurb GPF ------------ -------- F10 at Nurb GPF
    Session Best Time 1:28.910 ------------ Session Best Time 1:28.776
    Race Laps ------------ ----------- Race Laps
    1 1:34.983 ------------ ----------- 1 1:33.093
    2 1:30.323 ------------ ----------- 2 1:28.776
    3 1:30.163 ------------ ----------- 3 1:29.386
    4 1:29.448 ------------ ----------- 4 1:43.334 crashed
    5 1:29.007 ------------ ----------- 5 1:29.014
    ------------ -----------
    X2010 at Suzuka ------------ -------- X2010 at Suzuka
    Session Best Time 1:00.158 ------------ Session Best Time 59.556
    Race Laps ------------ ----------- Race Laps
    1 1:02.775 ------------ ----------- 1 1:01.321
    2 1:00.832 ------------ ----------- 2 1:00.306
    3 1:00.229 ------------ ----------- 3 59.875
    4 1:00.158 ------------ ----------- 4 1:00.053
    5 1:00.467 ------------ ----------- 5 59.556
    ------------ -----------
    X2011 at GVS ------------ -------- X2011 at GVS
    Session Best Time 54:215 ------------ Session Best Time 53.617
    Race Laps ------------ ----------- Race Laps
    1 58.330 ------------ ----------- 1 59.024
    2 55.126 ------------ ----------- 2 53.989
    3 54.398 ------------ ----------- 3 53.888
    4 54.215 ------------ ----------- 4 54.120
    5 55.051 ------------ ----------- 5 53.617
    ------------ -----------
    Elise 111R at Tsukuba ------------ -------- Elise 111R at Tsukuba
    Session Best Time 58:334 ------------ Session Best Time 57.775
    Race Laps ------------ ----------- Race Laps
    1 1:03.050 ------------ ---------1 1:03.030
    2 59.228 ------------ ----------- 2 58.651
    3 59.905 ------------ ----------- 3 57.775
    4 58.334 ------------ ----------- 4 58.374
    5 58.758 ------------ ----------- 5 59.496 bad lap

    Just received the Nixim Brake Mod and will be installing it tomorrow. Results will be updated in a few days depending on how long it takes to get used to it.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2012
  12. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    First impressions using the Nixim brake mod:

    Quality appears to be same as the GTeye. Any concerns about one copying the other can be put to rest as they achieve almost the same result but in a different way. Where the GTeye is initially stiffer when I step on the brake, the Nixim is about 20% softer. The Gteye is missing just a bit of that last stage of progressive braking that is achieved by the Nixim rubber insert, but somehow still ends up feeling a bit more progressive through the full range. I was worried about the rubber insert requiring too much pressure to activate 100% braking once the range had been set in GT5, but that is not the case. I have no issues using the rubber insert with GT5 other than I am strongly considering reducing the length of the insert.

    After a few laps I was actually enjoying that extra bit of pressure to engage 100% braking. Pedal travel was the only thing that has initially surprised me. After using the Gteye for a few weeks, it was leaving me feeling like there may be too much pedal travel and that it took too much effort to get to 100%. The Nixim in contrast has less travel – maybe about 3/8” less by my rough estimate and left wanting a bit more travel in order to have more precise brake control. This is very minor issue that I believe is resolved by reducing the length the rubber insert. However, I am not going to change anything until I spend a bit more time with the Nixim mod and also do the timed sessions.

    Today’s initial shake down using the X2010 and Suzuka was producing very consistent 59s. Absolutely nothing wrong with the Nixim with the way it is shipped.

    I can personally recommend both of these brake mods to G27 users. They achieve the same result in slightly different ways. I can honestly say it will be difficult to decide which one to leave in the pedal. Nice problem to have I guess. If anyone is considering getting one of these – order it today and you will have it in time for the later rounds of GT Academy. I’m pretty sure it will make the experience better and make you more consistent – maybe even quicker.

    Times sessions to be completed in a few days.

    [​IMG]
    GTEYE spring on the left, Nixim on the right.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  13. roflcoptor

    United Kingdom Blackburn, Lancashire, UK

    Oshawa-Joe, maybe add the original Logitech spring in that photo to show just how bad it is...?
     
  14. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    I'll do that when I pull out the Nixim to cut the rubber down- get all 3 in same picture.
     
  15. fatkrakr

    Online Now!
    ohio
    PSN:fatkrakr

    I thought for sure you was gonna say I would but its in the clutch pedal. :)
     
  16. Raitziger

    Finland Espoo
    PSN:GTP_Raitzi

    He posted lap times in the post above.
     
  17. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    I actually like the stock clutch spring. I'll put in the Nixim clutch spring to compare, however I only use the clutch for seasonal events and as such not overly concerned about it.
     
  18. fatkrakr

    Online Now!
    ohio
    PSN:fatkrakr

    For me the brake to the clutch switch wasnt very noticeable. It was the clutch to gas pedal switch that was dramatic. Dont much care for hard it is to press now, but the off throttle response it so much better with the spring swap. Thats the only reason I havent switched em back. :tup:
     
  19. CarBastard

    Colombia Bogota,Colombia
    PSN:GTP_ARP93

    Erm, you mean you changed the original Logitech clutch spring to the accelerator pedal? I'm not sure if it works. I tried it when I installed my GTEYE because I thought I'd seen somewhere that it could be done but the .pdf instructions only mentioned the stock spring to clutch pedal swap. I found this has a reason, because when I installed the clutch spring on the accelerator pedal it made an awkward noise. I don't remember how exactly but I know that the clutch and accelerator springs differ.
     
  20. fatkrakr

    Online Now!
    ohio
    PSN:fatkrakr

    My old brake pedal spring is in my clutch, my old clutch spring is in the throttle and the perfect pedal for the brakes. I havent had any issues with noise or anything else, been that way for 4 or 5 months now. Maybe try flipping the spring over or just repositioning it in the housing.
     
  21. G219

    Online Now!
    United States California
    PSN:Gav219

    I use the Nixim Mod V.2 and I have the old clutch spring in the accelerator pedal. I have noticed that there is a click when I go from full braking to applying throttle. Going to take it apart this weekend to see if I have a wire caught or something.
     
  22. CarBastard

    Colombia Bogota,Colombia
    PSN:GTP_ARP93

    That's the noise I talk about. I also thought it was a wire or something but then it would've got in the way of the plastic casing as well, and when I took apart the pedals again I found nothing causing the noise so I assume it's caused by just using the clutch spring in the accelerator pedal.
     
  23. Mayaman

    Premium

    The correct answer to all this bickering is? The Perfect Pedal, lol
     
  24. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    The price makes it less than a perfect option for some people.
     
  25. CarBastard

    Colombia Bogota,Colombia
    PSN:GTP_ARP93

    Except it isn't. I'm 19 and I'm a student, living at home, still depending on my mother's income. How in hell am I gonna justify spending $300 in a pedal mod? Unless I'm a grown man with a monthly income around 5 figures, I will never be able to pay that.

    That's the beauty of this mods. They're cheap yet effective. They're designed for middle-class simracers that wan't a little bit more at an affordable price, and for a tenth of the price of the perfect pedal I'd say they're a great option.
     
  26. Mayaman

    Premium

    Relax party people, it was in jest. I do love my perfect pedal but its not for everyone. OK back to the party.
     
  27. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    I wish I could try it out but I only paid $180 for a new G27. Can't bring myself to spend almost double on 1 pedal.
     
  28. roflcoptor

    United Kingdom Blackburn, Lancashire, UK

    And when you finally reach that stage, you will then find that you have things like mortgage and utility bills to pay. :ouch:
     
  29. G219

    Online Now!
    United States California
    PSN:Gav219

    Good point about the plastic casing. Cheers, you just saved me some time.
     
  30. Oshawa-Joe

    Online Now!
    Premium
    Canada Hillsdale
    PSN:Oshawa-Joe

    I’ve spend a couple of weeks now using the Nixim V2 mod and set out to do the next round of timed laps today. With the exception of X1s and F1s I usually use abs on 1 and the braking performance has been much better than stock. My laps times have been improving overall the last few weeks using the Nixim V2 to the point some of my friends have been upgrading their G27s as well, but I have to point out a few things that could be a deciding factor for some people.

    The Nixim mod V2 is designed to work with a 35% deadzone and is about 25% softer than the GTEye in the first part of the pedal travel, and has slightly less brake pedal travel. Slight movement in brake pedal results in 50%-75% braking pressure. Unfortunately I can’t adjust the braking deadzone in GT5 resulting in less progressive brake without ABS. Works much better than the stock spring if using ABS. I can't comment on how well it works within other sims that provide control of deadzone and such. The GTeye works better in GT5 without ABS due to more progression and more travel which allows for easier control of braking pressure. My skill level is average at best so I definitely need things made easier.

    ***I’m also not using a racing rig where the wheel, pedals and seat are all mounted together, and as such I’m not able to fully utilize the function of the rubber insert. What I mean by that is that I can’t apply enough pressure on the brake to use the extra travel and progression.

    Back to the testing- I ran a few sessions today. The X1 /F1 times where very close to times I ran using the GTEYE but I wasn’t satisfied with what I was getting without ABS. Tonight I’m going to open the pedals up again and modify the rubber insert by cutting down to about 15mm. We’ll see if this helps with the feel, progression and the control.

    These are simply my opinions after having used both the GTEYE and the Nixim for several weeks each.

    EDIT: I am done with testing. Braking without abs has changed since the last update 2.06. Some combos are quicker, some are slower, and most required changes to brake balance making it difficult to compare lap times to pre 2.06.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2012
Next Page »
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.