Physics: EPR vs GT4

Wolfe2x7

Scaff used to say the same thing...can you be more specific with "highspeed physics?" Just curious.

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As I have been away for a while I missed this one, so at the risk of kicking thing off again I will explain what I mean.

My issue with EPR high speed physics falls into two areas.

The first is a side effect of the unrealistic smoothness of EPR tracks, at high speeds (and by that I mean over 100 mph approx) even the smallest bump or surface irregularity can throw a car off line and cause a 'sweaty palm' moment. Anyone who has driven a British B road at an enthusiastic speed will know exactly what I mean. EPR does not recreate this well, but as I say this more a problem with the lack of surface detail on the tracks as anything else. Two good examples of this are the 'ring, which appears to have been resurfaced for EPR; and the Victoria Garden tracks, in which Londons streets have never been as smooth.

The second is more of a direct issue for me, and its the recreation of lift at speed. A VW Bettle (new version) develops 742lbs of lift at 124mph, which considering the car weights approx 2750lbs is a major change. Again anyone who has driven a car at high speed will have experienced the feel of the cars effective reduction in weight and the change it has on balance and steering feel. In EPR a new Bettle at these speeds still feels firmly planted on the road, with little reduction in steering feel or response.

Hope that the above makes sense.

Regards

Scaff

hmmm, interesting debate, I'll have to pick up enthusia to have a look for myself - I always dismissed it before based on reviews by people who know nothing about cars.

BTW Scaff, have you got TOCA 3 and internet for your PS2? The racing and physics (for the most part heh) are brilliant, and having a full field of clean drivers is the most fun I've had on PS2. I'd love to race you sometime if u have it

KSaiyu

hmmm, interesting debate, I'll have to pick up enthusia to have a look for myself - I always dismissed it before based on reviews by people who know nothing about cars.

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Pick up a copy, you will not be disapointed its a great buy (particularly as you can pick it up for around £15) and a strong sim.

KSaiyu

BTW Scaff, have you got TOCA 3 and internet for your PS2? The racing and physics (for the most part heh) are brilliant, and having a full field of clean drivers is the most fun I've had on PS2. I'd love to race you sometime if u have it

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I've got TRD3 and its a great game, I love the Caterham races on Pro-sim mode, full grids and strong damage make it a real challenge (plus its got my local circuit - Castle Coombe). Not got my PS2 on-line yet, never got around to buying a network adaptor or running the cables into my living room. I must confess I'm not sure if I'd do it for one game, but if they do release GT4 Online that may well change my mind (and if so I will see you on-line).

Regards

Scaff

This is a bit off-topic, but last night I watched one of my "Duke" DVDs, it is one about Juan Manuel Fangio (made when he was still alive), featuring, apart from a great interview with Stirling Moss and another with Fangio himself, lots of fantastic pieces of video. The ones I liked the most were taken from the Fangio victories in the Nurburgring, where you can see what a narrow track it was and how it has been flattened in some areas (where nowadays cars would simply take off and fly away to the top of a nearby tree).

And one thing I noticed (after watching it I picked again the "in car 956" DVD and re-watched Derek Bell doing one lap at the Nurb), was how smooth was Fangio's driving. Himself admits he wasn't a spectacular driver, and Moss says of him that almost anyone could make one lap equal or faster than Fangio, what they couldn't do is to drive all the laps of a full GP at his pace.

But Fangio could drive smoothly because: a) the cars weren't as brutal as nowadays are; b) the grip level of the tyres they used was so low that they drived and cornered allways "sliding" (it is not drifting, anyone who has played GT Legends knows what this constant "sliding" means); c) to add to it all, the downforce they had before (if any) was irrelevant compared to the one modern race cars generate at speed.

That said, I think everyone agrees with Scaff (I do) about the tracks being too smooth in EPR. But (and this is a discussion I've had time and time again with a friend of mine), I also think that GT4 doesn't recreate well the movements of the wheel when at speed (supposedly to help our feeling of the irregularities of the track)

And watching Derek Bell doing two laps at Le Mans is good example of this. It is not on the straight (english speakers call it the Mulsanne straight, I always learned to call it the "Hunaudiéres" straight*) where he has most trouble with the wheel of the 956 (like in GT4). It is while cornering, where the front tyres get/lose/get/lose/get grip. And in GT4 that's exactly (while cornering) where the wheel becomes stable.


* btw, the "Hun" in my nickname comes from "Hunaudiéres". The rest you can figure out what it means

Scaff

Pick up a copy, you will not be disapointed its a great buy (particularly as you can pick it up for around £15) and a strong sim.

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Got mine for a fiver on ebay 👍

Scaff

I've got TRD3 and its a great game, I love the Caterham races on Pro-sim mode, full grids and strong damage make it a real challenge (plus its got my local circuit - Castle Coombe). Not got my PS2 on-line yet, never got around to buying a network adaptor or running the cables into my living room. I must confess I'm not sure if I'd do it for one game, but if they do release GT4 Online that may well change my mind (and if so I will see you on-line).

Regards

Scaff

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Are you not disapointed by it's arcadieness*?

- I think playing Enthusia just before TRD3 has really spoilt it for me. Enthusia does have its issues like you mentioned, but i find its 'throttle-controlability'* a feature that has really moved the genra on a couple of steps.



* there you go, invented 2 new words/phrase in one post!

TheCracker

Are you not disapointed by it's arcadieness*?

- I think playing Enthusia just before TRD3 has really spoilt it for me. Enthusia does have its issues like you mentioned, but i find its 'throttle-controlability'* a feature that has really moved the genra on a couple of steps.



* there you go, invented 2 new words/phrase in one post!

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Being honest no, but mainly because I've played every version of the series (way back to the Playstation BTCC versions) and have never been under any illusions about the series.

Its a bit like the Colin McRae series, they are not true sims by any stretch of the imagination, with the handling best described as sim-cade. However what the TRD and CM series are is good fun.

@Hun200kmh Quite agree with all you have said, particularly in regard to the two DVDs (which I have) and the issues GT4 has with the wheel shaking at very high speed (and we are here talking around 180mph+).

Its why in my opinion neither EPR or GT4 has got it spot-on, both have problems, and its why on balance I still hold them about equal.


Regards

Scaff

Ohhh u gotta have a network adaptor for toca 3, its a lot better online than single player (even tho the single is great).

I have a spare one if you're interested in it that I can just post to you (I bought one for my American PS2 not realising I could use one on the other )

KSaiyu

Ohhh u gotta have a network adaptor for toca 3, its a lot better online than single player (even tho the single is great).

I have a spare one if you're interested in it that I can just post to you (I bought one for my American PS2 not realising I could use one on the other )

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Wow, now thats a very generous and kind offer. I will have to look at what would be involved in getting my line near my PS2 and if I would need to change my modem.

I will look into this and PM you, and once again a very generous offer.

Many thanks

Scaff

Scaff

As I have been away for a while I missed this one, so at the risk of kicking thing off again I will explain what I mean.

My issue with EPR high speed physics falls into two areas.

The first is a side effect of the unrealistic smoothness of EPR tracks, at high speeds (and by that I mean over 100 mph approx) even the smallest bump or surface irregularity can throw a car off line and cause a 'sweaty palm' moment. Anyone who has driven a British B road at an enthusiastic speed will know exactly what I mean. EPR does not recreate this well, but as I say this more a problem with the lack of surface detail on the tracks as anything else. Two good examples of this are the 'ring, which appears to have been resurfaced for EPR; and the Victoria Garden tracks, in which Londons streets have never been as smooth.

The second is more of a direct issue for me, and its the recreation of lift at speed. A VW Bettle (new version) develops 742lbs of lift at 124mph, which considering the car weights approx 2750lbs is a major change. Again anyone who has driven a car at high speed will have experienced the feel of the cars effective reduction in weight and the change it has on balance and steering feel. In EPR a new Bettle at these speeds still feels firmly planted on the road, with little reduction in steering feel or response.

Hope that the above makes sense.

Regards

Scaff

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Finally. All this time, I was thinking we were just talking about cornering behavior alone (understeer, oversteer, inertia, etc.). Now it all makes sense. And I agree with these faults.

Hun200kmh

That said, I think everyone agrees with Scaff (I do) about the tracks being too smooth in EPR. But (and this is a discussion I've had time and time again with a friend of mine), I also think that GT4 doesn't recreate well the movements of the wheel when at speed (supposedly to help our feeling of the irregularities of the track)

And watching Derek Bell doing two laps at Le Mans is good example of this. It is not on the straight (english speakers call it the Mulsanne straight, I always learned to call it the "Hunaudiéres" straight*) where he has most trouble with the wheel of the 956 (like in GT4). It is while cornering, where the front tyres get/lose/get/lose/get grip. And in GT4 that's exactly (while cornering) where the wheel becomes stable.

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Agreed.

TheCracker

Enthusia does have its issues like you mentioned, but i find its 'throttle-controlability'* a feature that has really moved the genra on a couple of steps.

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Agreed.

Scaff

Being honest no, but mainly because I've played every version of the series (way back to the Playstation BTCC versions) and have never been under any illusions about the series.

Its a bit like the Colin McRae series, they are not true sims by any stretch of the imagination, with the handling best described as sim-cade. However what the TRD and CM series are is good fun.

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Agreed. ( at the accuracy of "sim-cade" as a description)

Scaff

@Hun200kmh Quite agree with all you have said, particularly in regard to the two DVDs (which I have) and the issues GT4 has with the wheel shaking at very high speed (and we are here talking around 180mph+).

Its why in my opinion neither EPR or GT4 has got it spot-on, both have problems, and its why on balance I still hold them about equal.

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I agree that neither EPR nor GT4 are spot-on (LFS, though not perfect either, is much closer, as I've said before), but in my opinion, I still give EPR the edge in realism.

What really matters is that, at least in my opinion, EPR is 1000x more fun than GT4. And that's the main reason why I prefer EPR to GT4.

I've sorta asked you before, Scaff, but never directly, and you've never really answered (at least I don't remember you having done so). Which one do you think is more fun to play?

Wolfe2x7

Finally. All this time, I was thinking we were just talking about cornering behavior alone (understeer, oversteer, inertia, etc.). Now it all makes sense. And I agree with these faults.

Agreed. ( at the accuracy of "sim-cade" as a description)

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Glad you find it the same, and its the areas I would like to most see addressed for any sequal (which my fingers are still crossed for), particularly the surface detail one.

Wolfe2x7

I agree that neither EPR nor GT4 are spot-on (LFS, though not perfect either, is much closer, as I've said before), but in my opinion, I still give EPR the edge in realism.

What really matters is that, at least in my opinion, EPR is 1000x more fun than GT4. And that's the main reason why I prefer EPR to GT4.

I've sorta asked you before, Scaff, but never directly, and you've never really answered (at least I don't remember you having done so). Which one do you think is more fun to play?

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I honestly wish it was as easy for me, but I do have fun with both and both can be very frustrating at times.

I tend to run in waves, i.e. a couple of weeks on one and then on the other, and every time I do I miss parts of the one I'v emoved from.

I love the RWD cars, Dragon Range and Mirage on EPR and find them all great fun, and my immediate thought is to say that EPR is the most fun. Then I think about tweaking cars in GT4, running my AZ-1 around the 'ring (which I find more fun in GT4 because of the surface detail, and the runs we both did with the M3's around Grand Valley. Nailing the 's' section between the two hairpins when we were talking about the M3 was great fun.

I honestly can't pick a firm favorite between them in terms of fun, and I honestly wish I could because it would at least allow me to focus my time on one rather than both. What I can say is that both are more fun than Forza, but I would also recomend TRD3 (with the pro-sim modes on) as great fun and a wonderful damage model that does teach GT4, EPR and Forza a lot.

Still if it gets to much to pick between them then I can always go and cause carnage in Black (fun with guns).

Regards

Scaff

Alright, don't get me wrong, I love enthusia, my fav. game actually. But something gets to me about the way the cars handle. I don't know it's just so.......disconnected feeling. Like I can see and hear that the car is on the ragged edge of controll and my steering affects it, but it seems like I can't really feel it. Like the wheel is telling me which way I'm turning with FF but I can't feel that I'm on the edge like I can with other games. It's like the FF is strong and correct, it just feels drunk or something. Like it doens't respond enough to things like the car stepping out the back end or starting to understeer or getting unsettled. In short, it just feels dead from what it should.

Also I can yank the wheel back and forth down the straights and it doens't even disturb the car. It just makes it move slightly left and right. It's wierd. And even when you loose it and spin out, it's just so.......whatever. Like it happened for the right reason, and it's realistic, you just can't really feel it like you should. You should be fighting that car when your on the edge and it should be very envigorating and challenging, but instead it's like........"am I sliding??.....It looks like it, but it doesn't feel like it" Like you don't even have to do anything about it, just steer left or right depending on where the car is going. You should be going nuts on that wheel when you loose it at 80+ Instead I can even let go of the wheel once the car starts sliding and the car will guide it'self around the turn and all I have to do is turn the wheel back at the end of it so it doesn't overcorrect.

In GT4 and some other games when I'm on the edge I know it. And I'm going crazy with my steering inputs back and forth and feathering the throttle and fighting for controll and one mistake and it's over. But if I want I can throw it in sideways and drift (though this is where GT4 has the same problem due to understeer and crap tire physics). This fighting for controll is the way it should be and it's quite invigorating and fun.......With Enthu it's like you can just hold the wheel nearly still and let the car balance it'self out and keep your foot down and only lift if you feel like your wheelspin is going to give you too much rear momentum. IDK, it's just too easy IMO. I feel like I'm along for the ride and just telling the car what it should do instead of feeling like I'm driving it like I should.

Sorry for how long this is......
In short, THE CAR DOESN'T RESPOND QUICK ENOUGH TO MY INPUTS AND DOESN'T COMMUNICATE TO ME WHAT'S GOING ON VERY WELL.

As a DS2 player who is incapable of playing EPR with the DFP due to a shorted-out USB port, I can't really say much as far as the force feedback goes.

However, I will say that the very reason why I like Enthusia so much compared to other PS2 sims is because it does communicate to me what's going on.

I can relate to the somewhat-sluggish response to steering, because I had to get used to it when I first started playing the game, but I really think that's just because GT4 is so sensitive, and that's what you're used to (maybe?). Nowadays I only play LFS and EPR, and I never really notice the relative sluggishness of EPR -- only the hyper-sensitivity of GT4.

All I can say is this -- if you haven't already, you should try Live for Speed. The force feedback isn't exactly the greatest, but it's good, and the visual and audial cues to what the car is doing are excellent. Also, response is excellent, especially if you choose a light, nimble car (like the Caterham-Seven-lookalike )

There's a huge difference between the sensitivity of the wheel in GT4 & Enthusia. I think I mentioned the "mom" test I did accidentally. Was showing of my DFP when my mom was in town and she absolutely couldn't drive GT4 at all because it takes so little input to twitch the wheels. Enthusia, otoh, takes a more "car-like" input to change, and she was able to drive around Nurb pretty easily in it (albeit at about 50mph max).

I wonder if that difference is causing part of the issue for you, rsmithdrift? I am sort of in the camp that wishes Enthusia was slightly "twitchier" as speed increased. But in any case, the first few laps after playing a bunch of GT4, Enthusia always feels to me like I have to crank the wheel a mile to get the reaction I'm looking for.

BTW, another issue I have with GT4--they really seem to mess with the "wheel feel" even within the game. For example, Challenge 34 is impossible to practice because the SLR in there handles *completely* differently from the one you can buy and drive practice laps with--and I played with a lot of different set ups and tires to come to that conclusion...

Came back to reply some comment about GT4 vs EPR...

EPR is much more accurate than GT4 on the Nordschleife. Once you do some S-Corner around that track, GT4 is uberly wrong. You drift around those & you go faster. In EPR, it require you to be much more smoother around the corners. I'm playing the Nordschleife on PGR3 & I own 99.8% of the players online(There's around 9000 players in PGR3). The track layout in PGR3 is exactly the same as GT4 & EPR, but the car grip a lot, turn fast & go very fast(Hard to handle). Though, driving experience is much more better in EPR. You learn to race much more faster in any other game.

I rank EPR up there with games like Grand Prix Legends and Richard Burns Rally. I think the game gives a natural feel, or should I say it just feels right. I agree it feels a little less edgy especially on the limit. Still like any good car/racing sim I can drive consistent at 90-95% all day, but it's hard to get out the last 5%. When somethings goes wrong, I know it's me, and not some programming. When it comes to the Driving Force Pro I think EPR takes more use of the wheels range, and GT4 don't use the wheels full range? EPR feels a little bit to sluggish and GT4 to direct. Both should have been in between.

Mr Deap

EPR is much more accurate than GT4 on the Nordschleife. Once you do some S-Corner around that track, GT4 is uberly wrong. You drift around those & you go faster.

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Why is that so wrong? I mean, I don't know, but how do you know for sure that oversteer isn't faster through an S turn? It's a very high risk to take while driving the Nurb in real life, but who knows...

Niels

Why is that so wrong? I mean, I don't know, but how do you know for sure that oversteer isn't faster through an S turn? It's a very high risk to take while driving the Nurb in real life, but who knows...

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Actually your very right. Oversteer is MUCH faster in real life than understeer. Faster than being balanced even. Loose is fast. I don't care who you are. Now this is only to a point. If you're straight up drifting, then yes it's slower. It's slower in GT4, and it's slower in EPR. But if you can keep the car on the ragged edge of control so that you aren't turning the car with the steering wheel, you know, zero steering angle, but car still turning, and able to just keep your foot down as much as possible and not wheelspin, just on the edge of it (steering with the rear wheels) Then you are going to be much faster through the turn than if you crank the wheel and have to let off the gas.

This is why I said what I did above. You can't feel when you are at this state in EPR, you can see and hear it, but not feel it. In GT4 YOU FEEL IT! Problem is GT4 steering is too sensitive and EPR's isn't nearly sensitive enough.

I've driven a mountain road that EXACTLY reminded me of the Dragon Range from EPR in real life and yes, at low speed, EPR feels perfect, but once your above 40-50 mph you can def. feel when your on the edge in real life and you can't at all tell in EPR. EPR's physics are nearly perfect, it just doesn't relay the way it really feels.

rsmithdrift

Actually your very right. Oversteer is MUCH faster in real life than understeer. Faster than being balanced even. Loose is fast. I don't care who you are. Now this is only to a point. If you're straight up drifting, then yes it's slower. It's slower in GT4, and it's slower in EPR. But if you can keep the car on the ragged edge of control so that you aren't turning the car with the steering wheel, you know, zero steering angle, but car still turning, and able to just keep your foot down as much as possible and not wheelspin, just on the edge of it (steering with the rear wheels) Then you are going to be much faster through the turn than if you crank the wheel and have to let off the gas.

This is why I said what I did above. You can't feel when you are at this state in EPR, you can see and hear it, but not feel it. In GT4 YOU FEEL IT! Problem is GT4 steering is too sensitive and EPR's isn't nearly sensitive enough.

I've driven a mountain road that EXACTLY reminded me of the Dragon Range from EPR in real life and yes, at low speed, EPR feels perfect, but once your above 40-50 mph you can def. feel when your on the edge in real life and you can't at all tell in EPR. EPR's physics are nearly perfect, it just doesn't relay the way it really feels.

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Well said, I would have to strongly agree on that one (+rep)

Regards

Scaff

I agree with Scaff, that was a well-thought-out post, and I know exactly what you're talking about. 👍

However, I can't say I have the same problem...it must be because I use the DS2 -- you're mainly talking about the force-feedback, right?

Wolfe2x7

I agree with Scaff, that was a well-thought-out post, and I know exactly what you're talking about. 👍

However, I can't say I have the same problem...it must be because I use the DS2 -- you're mainly talking about the force-feedback, right?

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Personally I'm refering to the DFP and the slightly disconnected feeling you can get at speed, its not something that ruins EPR at all, but it does make it feel 'wrong' at times.

Regards

Scaff

Yeah, I use DFP + MC2 like some others in this forum. I can't stand using the handheld for driving on sim games. I can use it for GTA and TXR0 and Flatout and such, but not in a sim game, that just deserves a realistic setup IMO.

And slightly disconnected force feedback isn't a game killer at all, bad tire physics (like GT4's) is a game killer, this is just more of an annoyance really. Something it'd be nice if they fixed in the next EPR if there ever is one.

is more simply than all those things...
in EPR you can make donuts...
in GT4 you cant...
even in other games you can do that (trd3, nfs, etc)
in EPR if you push the gas more than you need the wheels spin and the car twist...
in GT4 the tires spin only....

Mr Deap

New video of comparison of GT4 & Enthusia

http://media.putfile.com/GT4-vs-Enthusia

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Sorry to bump up the thread, I liked that video a lot....but....

what's the song called ???? It's driving me crazy....the best eurobeat song I heard by far....... Could someone tell me please, because I tried to figure out the lyrics but I came up with nothing

Thanks a lot in advance 👍

It's probably called "Hot Hot"....just a hunch.

If you look up "Eurobeat Hot Hot" on Google, you'll find that there was a song by that name that was sung by "Donna."

Happy hunting.

Wolfe2x7

It's probably called "Hot Hot"....just a hunch.

If you look up "Eurobeat Hot Hot" on Google, you'll find that there was a song by that name that was sung by "Donna."

Happy hunting.

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Thanks a lot !!!! Great-.....now I only have to find a place to buy it .......💡


Great, thanks a lot again !! Almost saved a life

see you around,

Vlad (Puricele7e)

Test Car: 2005 Ford Mustang GT

I chose the Ford Mustang GT because I want to find some difference among the driving physics. I'm not using this Mustang just to be prejudiced among not choosing some other nation's muscle. The Mustang GT has proven to be a very agile car with good power. I've used Tsukuba Circuit as my testing ground.

GRAN TURISMO 4 - Arcade Mode Time Trial - Sports Medium Tires - no TCS or ACS

My 10-lap run around Tsukuba in GT4 was with the 2005 Ford Mustang GT. Tsukuba has been one of my least-successful courses in GT4 and Enthusia. This is a car that I actually like. It is modernized retro. I know this isn't true, but the car seemed to be pretty easy to send into the corners. You really had to do some really bad driving to get her to spin. The Mustang seemed to understeer more than oversteer. That tricky final corner of Tsukuba is almost like a couple of turns on an oval. Only that this is flat with no fence or banking to help save you. My best time was 1:07.213 on Lap 8. Since Lap 4, I steadily decreased my lap times to almost incredulous degrees. Sixty-seven seconds around Tsukuba isn't bad for a street car. Playing Enthusia a lot really got me to see what GT4 didn't do in the handling department. I was doing Arcade Mode. I later threw away two laps by losing control of my car and going off into the grass out of the final corner.


Tsukuba Dry 10 Lap Session Lap Times:
01 - 1:09.884
02 - 1:09.176
03 - 1:07.879
04 - 1:08.398
05 - 1:07.613
06 - 1:07.516
07 - 1:07.429
08 - 1:07.213 BEST LAP
09 - ?:??.???
10 - 1:08.417


I did a second ten-lap run on the same track. This time, I raced the Wet variant of Tsukuba. I had a Sonic Blue Clearcoat Metallic for the first deal. Now I'm using the color of the Mustang I have in GT4 in Red Fire Clearcoat Metallic. It's the same track... just a little wet. You GT4 gamers may know that only two cars can be on the track at once on wet tracks while Enthusia has Tsukuba Wet with six to a track. My first lap was significantly higher because of the wet course. My rear tires even kissed some of the saturated grass as all four tires almost left the course out of the final corner. The time to beat was 1:23.248. Am I game enough to beat my own lap time? Read on, enticed ones. All four tires left the course GUARANTEED on Lap 2. I slid off the course and damn near smacked the wall. Slid off and damn near hitting the wall... reminds me of my skating experience at the Houston Galleria's skating rink back in 1996. Left with a bruise on my right elbow that day. But back to the race. Despite heavy understeer in Turn 1, I managed to shave off a total of 2.778 seconds on Lap 3 as I had a money lap. Add a few more $100 bills because Lap 4 was even more of a money lap for me. I'd go bankrupt in Lap 5 as I tried to do early braking. My aggressive style in GT wasn't paying off on Tsukuba Wet on Lap 5 or the lap after. I almost spun out into the final corner, but caught up with the ghost driver. The best lap is still 1:20.415 at this point. Would I beat it? You bet, players! Lap 8 was a time of 1:19.481. It was 69 seconds of sweetness on this wet Japanese course. I slipped and slided out of the Dunlop bridge as Lap 9 came to an end for me. Back by about 3.108 to the ghost car out of Intermediate 2. Ouch.

Tsukuba Wet 10-Lap Session Lap Times:

01 - 1:23.248
02 - 1:24.218
03 - 1:20.470
04 - 1:20.425
05 - 1:21.044
06 - 1:21.124
07 - 1:20.819
08 - 1:19.481 BEST LAP
09 - 1:27.627
10 - 1:20.582

GT4 Physics in Review - I felt more comfortable with GT4's driving model even though this is only one street car with a driving model that's more accessible than professional. I instantly picked up on this driving experience according to my limited go-kart racing experience. I wanted to use a car that can also be found in Enthusia. I could have gone with the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren or the Ford GT, but I chose to go with the Ford Mustang GT because it's so agile and has good power to match. I think the accessibility of GT4's driving physics make this likable among many different racing gamers. More professional types didn't like it as much. I really surprised myself with this game and this track. And is it any wonder why this car has done pretty well in Grand-Am Cup? I do sort of wished I had only hints of Enthusia's driving model because it would better support my aggressive driving style in GT4. I would at least be able to swing the car out around the corners to a degree I like. Note that I had the default tire settings and no driver aids for this Arcade run. It is a very agile car which I'm proud of.





ENTHUSIA PROFESSIONAL RACING - Time Attack - No TCS or ESC

I will use the same car in Enthusia that I did in GT4. The 2005 Mustang GT. I tend to like the Enthusia model better because Sonic Blue, Mineral Gray, and Satin Silver all feature racing stripes. So I'm going to go with Sonic Blue. Now Tsukuba features over eight variations of the track with a combination of Night and Day, Dry and Wet, Normal and Reverse. I wanted to stay with a daytime course just to be fair, though I'm tempted to race at night. John loves nighttime. I'll have to nevermind the notion of black flags and just go out there and race. Assists are off. Okay, I was fooled into Night racing. So let's do this!

Whereas I'm aggressive in GT4, I'm cautious in Enthusia. IMMEDIATELY I felt the difference as I was oversteering and unable to clear corners like I was in GT4 with Sport Mediums all the way around. I even spun out under the Dunlop Bridge and had my car end up on part of the motorcycle course. Sensing the nose dive into the corners was pretty eminent during handling. After oversteering right out of the final corner, this was going to be pretty easy of a lap time to beat. Or would it? Time to beat was 1:28.739 after some substandard driving. I was money after Lap 2 by landing a 1:14.548 with this Mustang humming through the nighttime air. I was suddenly feeling the difference between the two in a good way. I am a cautious Enthusia racer, but I still have that GT4 mentality in me. My late entry into some corners was paying off, but not as much as in GT4. The second hairpin was where I spun out and did a 360 and change on Lap 4. It was a PGR moment right there (believe it or not, I have respect for the Project Gotham Racing series). Let me key you in on my brake and throttle inputs in games and even in my go-karting. I sometimes depress the brakes about twice or three times. I try to correct my angle during cornering by getting on the accelerator twice or so to try to maintain the balance of the car under moderate or heavy braking. This usually allows me to regain control of the car matched with moderate or aggressive steering. Maybe it helps that this game has a touge-style course to practice drifting since that track can help you with aggressive, yet smooth driving. Lap 6 delivered a solid 1:11.455 despite a late black flag foul against me. I would show monkeyshine after monkeyshine in the first two hairpins a lap later. I nearly lost it all again in the final corner. No black flags there, so I was clean. Still got the foul. She spun on me when I went into the critical chicane leading to the long backstretch. Flew off the track while in oversteer and behind by a little over 9 seconds to the Ghost Car. Lap 9 was a 1:20.290. I'd end up getting fouled all 10 laps. I sustained a sweet drift for 3/4 of the final section.

01 - 1:28.739
02 - 1:14.548
03 - 1:12.671
04 - 1:21.129
05 - 1:18.395
06 - 1:11.455 BEST LAP
07 - 1:18.074
08 - 1:13.050
09 - 1:20.290
10 - 1:11.762



People say that Enthusia is like driving on ice. Let me try something just as slick. I'll be going back to daytime since I don't have the nighttime variant for Tsukuba Wet in my Free Run lineup. Same car, same color, same track... just add water. Just add water is good for Wet T-Shirt contests and days at the beach, but not racing a modern muscle car on a wet race track. Time to beat was 1:26.912 after more bad driving. Better second laps are almost gimmes in Enthusia since you start from VERY close to the line in Enthusia. I beat the first lap time by about 11 seconds. All this slipping and sliding in this Mustang made me feel like I was Ken Gushi (Formula D drifter) instead of John M. (me). Lap 3 easily had to be my worst. I probably could have crashed with the Speed Flash thing lighting up my TV monitor. I had to master the dangerous art of going in Reverse. I'd end up being behind by almost 26 seconds out of Intermediate 2. I finished Lap 3 with 1:42.515. Damn! That's more like coming out of the pits than a bad lap! Bloody hell, mate! Slipping and sliding again meant that beating the 2nd Lap result would be even more difficult. Spun out into the wrong direction after the first hairpin. I beat the ghost into Intermediate 1, but that's all I'd beat from the Ghost Car. I started Lap 6 spinning and smacking a wall or two. Racing game superstition about me- every lap I throw away, I perform much better later that lap even though I'm not going to get the fastest lap time. And that's what the heck happened as I was denied a high 1:24 and given 1:25.007 for Lap 6. Stop the pain, player! I drifted the car out BEAUTIFULLY in the final section despite blowing Lap 7. It almost reminded me of the Driving Revolution challenge with the Caterham (Stage 18-4) on Cosmic Eggway. I had self-ownage when I thought my lap time would be 1:17.426 for Lap 7, but ended up getting a 1:31.392 for my lackluster effort on Lap 7. I spun out into the grass at the second hairpin and crashed into an invisible wall. I had to reverse out and almost ready to call my second lap my finest as I've pretty much bombed this entire run. But dreams do come true. I was expecting to end this report right there. But somehow, someway despite black flag fouls against me, I ripped a 1:16.624! That's three seconds better than my GT4 effort under Wet conditions!

01 - 1:26.912
02 - 1:17.426
03 - 1:42.515
04 - 1:35.201
05 - 1:28.840
06 - 1:25.007
07 - 1:31.392
08 - 1:18.366
09 - 1:30.585
10 - 1:16.624 (BEST LAP)

Enthusia's Physics in Review - You really notice when you don't have as much traction to the road as you would in GT4. I wouldn't mention countersteering, but more of better throttle control and proper brake pressure. I don't like Enthusia in terms of throttle input. I had more control of brakes and acceleration with my little DualShock 2 in GT4 than I do with Enthusia. I wished there was an option to modify sensitivity for the DualShock. Then I'd be in business. It wasn't such an easy ride in Enthusia compared to GT4. I don't know if it was because I did GT4 in Arcade Mode rather than GT Mode or what. If the wet track physics from Enthusia were in GT4, I would have NEVER won a race on Tsukuba Wet (including the Hard race). There were some moments in which I enjoyed a more aggressive style of racing during my Tsukuba runs in Enthusia. I say I'm more cautious because it actually takes skill to be aggressive yet percise. I don't think I've developed that in Enthusia to this day even though I'm more than 80% complete of all modes in Enthusia. The game has a driving model that will frustrate most novices and teach new lessons to GT gamers like me.




FINAL ANALYSIS

From my runs in GT4 and Enthusia with the 2005 Ford Mustang, here are the differences I found:

Tsukuba - Dry
GT4: 1:07.213
EPR: 1:11.455

Tsukuba - Wet
GT4: 1:19.481
EPR: 1:16.624

I used to disagree with Wolfe2x7 on GT4 on giving you too much control, but I do think that Tsukuba seemed easier in GT4. It came at the expense of a car more prone to understeer with a touch of oversteer. It's controllable in GT4. The drift cars will only do justice if you can work them correctly around a track. I did Tsukuba at night in Enthusia, not that it made any real difference. I found the 2005 Ford Mustang GT to be agile in both games. It's aggressive when you want it to be, yet fun to drive when you want to skip straights and go for corners. Both GT4 and Enthusia feature the beautiful 1960s Mustangs, only that GT4 has a Shelby and Enthusia a regular Ford. I could have gone for a Ford GT or a Mercedes SLR McLaren. I wanted to stay within something you have a better shot at buying or leasing than a supercar. I also wanted to do Tsukuba since I want a favorable track to work with in doing 10 laps rather than waste 10 laps around Nurburgring Nordschleife. Tsukuba is Japan's proving ground. I've concluded that Enthusia's model is pretty shaky at times. It is really a handful when you get the hang of it. Some people just didn't give Enthusia a chance. It's the same thing I tell GT4 gamers, give the game a chance. Let the game come to you. Don't let the evil "E" word tell you about a game- expectations. I don't believe in expectations because I want to let the game come to me. I have my own views about a game beforehand, but I never let expectations serve as a basis as to what I want to see or experience. It's the reason why most game reviewers and dedicated gamers have very little respect for most racing games. The presumption is that no damage or online play or whatever equals to a bad game. Gran Turismo's proven that games can still be fun even if you don't have sky-high expectations. Enthusia adds on to this point most people fail to realize. I wasn't expecting the handling model to be as complex as it is. No doubt this game is a real torture test. But it's a torture test that can be quite rewarding. So which would I prefer? Believe it or not, I'm going to call it a draw. There are points in GT4 I like over Enthusia and points in Enthusia I like over GT4. A combination of the two would be the perfect driving experience for me. I'm actually torn. I'd slightly favor GT4 since I'm more used to it and not a bad driver in the game. I just wish I could swing out the car a bit more like in Enthusia.

There you have it. I call it a draw. Good job by both outfits.

Calling a draw between these two is a cop-out if you ask me , but I respect your opinion, John.

I'm impressed with the "work" you have done, John. As you probably guess, I consider EPR overall to be better than GT4, but that's my personal perspective (I have both games and - between the two - the game I choose to play when I get home is EPR).

But my personal perspective is not to be considered. To tell you the truth, these last weeks I have been playing intensively "LM24H", and I'm gathering a team of 5 to run the 10 hours Road Atlanta race (Petit Le Mans) next August 19th (from 12:00 to 22:00) in hard mode (not an easy task, I assure you).

But hey, LM24H is a 2001 game, with very poor physics, graphics, sound, etc. so I must be just that kind of guy whose choices aren't to be considered.

Anyway, when someone asks me about Enthusia vs. GT4 I also say it's a draw. In GT4 you have better graphics, much more cars, much more tracks, it's a BIG game. EPR is, comparatively, much smaller.

And if the one asking is a 10 year old kid, or someone that doesn't have a wheel and is a unexperienced "game-driver", I will probably suggest GT4 over Enthusia.

Still though... Le Mans 24 Hours has to be one of the finest PS2 racing titles in its history. What began on the Dreamcast was lovingly given to the PS2 and PC with plenty of love. I haven't cleared the final two endurances in that game. I'm in the first hour in both Petit Le Mans and the 2000 Le Mans 24. My only gripe is that I sort of wished I could race the Le Mans 2000 cars in normal events.

We're discussing the differences in physics among the two. I likely stated in "One Year and a Few Days Ago..." about this project I was going to perform with Tsukuba in wet and dry with the 2005 Ford Mustang GT. Unlike some things I want to do, I actually completed this task for you all to take note of. I just say that I'd prefer GT4 on personal preference. Doesn't mean that I hate Enthusia in regards of the driving model. I think Enthusia's model is almost perfect in off-roading and rally (I'm one of the few who think of drifting as rallying). You really get to feel the car getting loose in off-road conditions. I feel that I could control my car better in opposite lock in GT4, but don't really get to engage into any sort of oversteer at times. I even try to E-brake at times in GT4 just to get the car to lose rear traction. It is much easier to lose rear traction when you actually need to. GT4 has a drift following, but you don't get sustainable and lasting drifts like in Enthusia. It's almost as if you have drift cars, just not truly catered to drifting or modelled effectively for drifting.

I really surprised myself with that Tsukuba Wet run in Enthusia. I never thought I would beat my fastest time until I looked to drive more carefully and safely. Trying to study the racing line of the Ghost Car and finding the best ways of correcting your mistakes can be easier said than done. Keep in mind that the track was wet for Enthusia run #2. So I had three things working against me- no driver aids, a wet track, and a fairly powerful RWD car. It's strange for me to say this, but I felt slightly more comfortable with a wet race track (Enthusia) since I can be better able to use more aggressive moves such as powerslides and my best asset- varied throttle/brake inputs. I even applied variations in throttle and brake when I had my go-kart rounds. I do have a tendency to brake too hard and not have enough stuff to get back up the speed and clearing the corner better. Enthusia doesn't have a look behind feature. You have to use the rear view mirror. GT4 and Forza have look behind views that work very well. I used the Look Behind in GT4 to judge the distance between my current run and the Ghost Car. Another thing that works against you in Enthusia- pay attention to my first lap times in my two Enthusia runs. You start like... right at the line on your first lap. I probably could have done 11 laps and just consider the first lap as a reconnisance lap. So it was no coincidence that my second lap times were better by at least 10. GT4 gives you the start of your practice run by starting you a bit between the penultimate Intermediate and the final Intermediate. That is a much better model to use since it gives you the proper speed you need in order to make effective one-lap passes. So that's why times between Laps 1 and 2 were better in GT4 compared to Enthusia.

There are a lot of variables to consider in my ten lap sessions on both the Dry and Wet versions of Tsukuba. I wanted to race a car available in both games with a track available in both games. Tsukuba was just perfect to test the driving dynamics. I wanted to make things as equal as possible. And now you know how I feel in terms of which model is better from a personal standpoint and from a real standpoint. At least, from MY perspective.

Nice write up and some good work as well.

I do have two questions in regard to it however, first why did you use Arcade mode in GT4 and not GT mode?

Secondly I would question the use of Sport Medium tyres in GT4 as they offer far more grip that 'real' tyres do, making the lap-time comparison problematic. In terms of raw data N2 or N3 tyres are a much closer match to 'real'.

Regards

Scaff