Physics: EPR vs GT4

[Wolfe]

Wow, it's like looking into a mirror. Thanks, Deathclown66, for giving me an insight into what I look like when I go into an anti-GT4 rant.

Physics, is what we're talking about in here, so off I go, on a tangent.
1. Infinity G35's (Skyline I had, same car), DO NOT burn out and bounce off the rev-limiter at 80 mph, just because you turned.
2. Not every RWD car in the world spins like a top if you break tire traction a smidgeon, no sir.
3. Speaking of cars feeling like they're floating on a lazy susan, these things seemed to me to carry that far more than any car game I've driven since 1997.
4. Braking is absurd, and stupid, cars with ABS achieve full lock-up constantly at low speeds, and plow like dump trucks, and if you don't lock them, you just don't slow down....
5. opposite of GT4, cars don't spin enough off the line, and spin way to much more when cornering.
6. high-speed cornering? well jeez, I guess I wasn't allowed to drive any fast cars, not any fast track, minus the 'Ring, when it's DARK. Besides, everybody agrees that part's horrible, so I probly couldn't have taken it.
7. The steering response is unbelievably slow, and overreacts once it moves, delivering a very annoying transition between games, and, a very UN-real driving feel.

1. Have you done this in a G35? Setting aside for a moment the fact that you referred to high-speed oversteer/wheelspin as "burning out," which really shatters your credibility on the topic of physics and the nuances of car control as far as I'm concerned, you may be surprised to find that tires have a hard time holding onto the road when you get them up to 80mph and throw a corner at them.

2. If you'd like to embarrass yourself on the internet by posting a video of your inability to keep a Miata from spinning out in Enthusia, by all means, go ahead. Most of us agree that Enthusia's oversteer is too easy to control compared to real life.

3. You haven't played any of Codemaster's games, have you (Colin McRae, TOCA Race Driver).

4. Many ABS systems can and will lock-up if you lock all four wheels at the same time. Also, you're the first car enthusiast I know who would rather have ABS than no ABS.

5. It is true that Enthusia's automatic clutch control gives too-perfect launches.

6. Everybody agrees that what's horrible? Enthusia's portrayal of the 'Ring? Having driven around the real course myself, I'm of the opinion that, aside from the lack of bumps, Enthusia's 'Ring is more accurate than GT4's.

7. The steering response is on the slow side, but I feel that it allows more precise driving. Overreaction with the steering is something I can't relate to, I'm afraid.

GT4 Vs. EPR
Steering - GT4 - uses the pressure sensitive buttons well, and allows you to steer smoothly and evenly, without loads of practice.
EPR - A Nightmare. jagged, pointy, slow in response, and drastic in measure, when combined with excessive wheel spin during cornering, and an overly-heightened snap-oversteer on even modest powered RWD's, create an experience that'll scare the racing dreams out of kids near and far.

Since we're mostly talking about sensitivity/feel here, it's all subjective, but I find it particularly amusing that you think GT4 allows you to steer smoothly and evenly. Maybe you can with "loads of practice," but I've had GT4 for a year-and-a-half and it still seems super-sensitive to me. Maybe you should spend some time to get "loads of practice" with Enthusia, so that you won't have as much trouble.

Wheelspin - GT4 - a little to much spin, that seems way worse than it is, due to a highly overexagerated loss of grip upon wheelspin, but evened out quite a bit due to lack of increase when turning.
EPR - Sticks like glue when straight, spins 3X when turning. pretty much the opposite of GT4.

Change Enthusia's "spins 3X when turning" to something more like "spins 1.5X when turning," at most, and I'd pretty much agree with you.

Cornering - GT4 - Maybe a little much grip, depending what tires you use.
EPR - seemed decent, unless you use the go-paddle, then all hell breaks loose.

I'd describe GT4 as "seemed decent, unless you try to use the go-paddle or the stop-paddle to break into a drift or escape from understeer, then the only thing that breaks loose is the grip of your front tires."

Speed - Can't test cars in EPR for crap, so we just don't know, at least I don't, cause I'm not bothering to try to match speeds on the few tracks they share in common.

There's only two that they share (the only two real-world tracks in Enthusia). From my experiences, Enthusia's 'Ring laptimes are much closer to reality, especially if you force yourself to get a no-black-flag time. I've never really tested Tsukuba.

Braking - neither is right, EPR went overboard trying to be realistic, and disabled all cars ABS, and GT4 did the opposite, not enough realism, and gave all cars ABS, and far as I know, there ain't nothing you can do to fix either, but you can make GT4 better.

The braking doesn't seem that bad to me in EPR. Besides, no-ABS is what most racing sim afficiandos want.

All-in-all, I'd say while GT4 spins tires to much going straight, it also doesn't make them increase spin enough in corners, (all cars, even FF), the FFs have it the worst because they have the straight-line the worst. What this does though, is even out, to a degree, so that while cornering, you actually have a close-to-life amount of grip, because it starts to high, but the cornering doesnt increase it enough, meaning it should be Straight - 5. Cornering - 5 total = 10. instead, GT4 gives you this: straight - 2 cornering - 8 total = 10

EPR, on the other hand, is more like this: straight - 7 cornering - 2 total = 9

...what? Don't take offense to this, but is English your second language? I'm just curious.

So while GT4's system disables FF's from competing with others, EPR's just makes FFs the only cars close to realistic.

Believe me when I say you're the first one to make that statement. Most would claim that the lift-off/braking/handbrake oversteer that you can get out of an FF in Enthusia is ridiculous.

one last thing: the little video, showing the Suzuki, and how they claim their physics to br "real", is a horrible ploy, trying to demonstrate that the game is perfect, when in reality, it makes the gullible belive it must be, and is targeted to those who are gullible. I'm sure the same feat could be accomplished with GT4, the difference is, in GT4, they programmed it right, and the suzuki would oversteer due to chassis/engine layout, along with suspension, and in EPR, they did a burnout, because everybody knows 60hp cars spin like a top if you floor it mid-turn at 55mph. (sarcasm)

A. It's a Miata.
B. You do know that half of the video was filmed using a real-life car, right? That real-world Miata had no trouble attaining and holding power oversteer -- even with its "weak" 4-cylinder.

 

[Gabkicks]

deathclown, did you use a controller to review both games?

 

[rsmithdrift]

Death clown. Please come back to this post after I finish my real life drift vid of my BONE FREAKING STOCK Nissan 240sx. I was manji, linking S-turns, doing many opposite lock to opposite lock drifts at 40+ mph

All at night, all in the wet, all in a stock, open diff, 155hp (120whp) 240sx.

And compair that to my drift vid of Enthu I posted not long ago. I will make a open diff otherwise stock 180sx vid for compairison as it is almost identical to my car in handling and feel and power.

Then you'll see, that if you ever drove a car on a real road you're a freaking moron if you still think GT4 is realistic and/or if you still think enthu is bad.

PS. If you have a computer, d/l the demo of Live for speed. It's physics are almost identical to enthu's, just a little more sesitive and everyone agree's on it's realism.

PSS. Yes enthu sucks balls with the hand held controler, you have to have a good wheel like the DFP to enjoy it.

 

[Wolfe]

PSS. Yes enthu sucks balls with the hand held controler, you have to have a good wheel like the DFP to enjoy it.

I strongly object to that statement.

Also, although I do believe Enthusia's physics are reminiscent of Live for Speed, LFS is in an entirely different league. It's the best of the best, in my opinion, and Enthusia, though impressive, just can't be compared to it.

 

[Scaff]

4. Many ABS systems can and will lock-up if you lock all four wheels at the same time. Also, you're the first car enthusiast I know who would rather have ABS than no ABS.

The braking doesn't seem that bad to me in EPR. Besides, no-ABS is what most racing sim afficiandos want.

I have to raise a point on this subject, I recently carried out a few tests on Enthusia braking (amongst other things) and in straight line braking Enthusia will not allow brakes to lock-up.

Quite easy to replicate, take a Cerbera to Ocean Bridge Wet and try some 100mph to 0mph brake tests. The tyre indicators quite clearly show full grip from all tyres under full braking right the way from 100mph to standstill. No lock-up at all.

The Cerbera is a car that is well known for both its lack of ABS and tricky attitude under hard braking (locked rears being a common trait).

Unfortunately Enthusia models hard braking as badly as GT4 does in almost all situations.

On the subject of ABS systems locking-up totally, yes it can happen in situations of almost zero-grip (such as snow or ice), but on modern systems its almost unheard of in other conditions. As for driving enthusiasts preferring non-ABS cars, well that depends on the system and the situation, on a public road and with a descent system for everyday driving (keep in mind I do approx 30,000 miles a year) give me ABS anyday; however for a weekend toy or the track non-ABS all the way.

6. Everybody agrees that what's horrible? Enthusia's portrayal of the 'Ring? Having driven around the real course myself, I'm of the opinion that, aside from the lack of bumps, Enthusia's 'Ring is more accurate than GT4's.

I would quite agree that Enthusia does model a few of the corners of the 'ring better than GT4, but the lack of surface detail (an issue I have with Enthusia on a lot of tracks) and bumps is just as much of an issue.

Then you'll see, that if you ever drove a car on a real road you're a freaking moron if you still think GT4 is realistic and/or if you still think enthu is bad.

I understand your passion for the subject, but do not resort to personal attacks on other members no matter what the situation, it is not acceptable at all.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

I have to raise a point on this subject, I recently carried out a few tests on Enthusia braking (amongst other things) and in straight line braking Enthusia will not allow brakes to lock-up.

Quite easy to replicate, take a Cerbera to Ocean Bridge Wet and try some 100mph to 0mph brake tests. The tyre indicators quite clearly show full grip from all tyres under full braking right the way from 100mph to standstill. No lock-up at all.

The Cerbera is a car that is well known for both its lack of ABS and tricky attitude under hard braking (locked rears being a common trait).

Now that I think about it, I've found the same thing in my experience with Enthusia. It seems a prodigious amount of straight-line grip is an issue.

However...

Unfortunately Enthusia models hard braking as badly as GT4 does in almost all situations.

I disagree. Much like wheelspin, hard braking has a much more realistic effect in EPR once you introduce some lateral G into the equation. If I'm careful not to get caught in understeer (which is a bit easier than it should be), I can use my brakes to initiate, modulate, or prolong oversteer in EPR. I can't say the same for GT4.

On the subject of ABS systems locking-up totally, yes it can happen in situations of almost zero-grip (such as snow or ice), but on modern systems its almost unheard of in other conditions.

I always forget whether or not modern ABS systems have solved/reduced that problem. As a result, I chose the word "many" instead of "older."

As for driving enthusiasts preferring non-ABS cars, well that depends on the system and the situation, on a public road and with a descent system for everyday driving (keep in mind I do approx 30,000 miles a year) give me ABS anyday; however for a weekend toy or the track non-ABS all the way.

I understand your point, but we are talking about a racing game, here, Scaff. Personally, I don't mind having a non-ABS daily driver.

I would quite agree that Enthusia does model a few of the corners of the 'ring better than GT4, but the lack of surface detail (an issue I have with Enthusia on a lot of tracks) and bumps is just as much of an issue.

For me, the fact that the bumps have almost no effect on your path of travel in GT4 negates their value, thus bringing me full-circle into appreciating Enthusia's Ring more.

 

[Deathclown66]

1. Have you done this in a G35? Setting aside for a moment the fact that you referred to high-speed oversteer/wheelspin as "burning out," which really shatters your credibility on the topic of physics and the nuances of car control as far as I'm concerned, you may be surprised to find that tires have a hard time holding onto the road when you get them up to 80mph and throw a corner at them.

It's called a burnout when a car is spinning it's tires, bouncing off the rev-limiter, right? And so what your telling me is, my credibility is shattered because I used an everyday car term?
And you're also telling me, in 4th gear, an average powered stock car, is going to light up its tires like a christmas tree? And your questioning my credibility?

2. If you'd like to embarrass yourself on the internet by posting a video of your inability to keep a Miata from spinning out in Enthusia, by all means, go ahead. Most of us agree that Enthusia's oversteer is too easy to control compared to real life.

Who mentioned a miata? anybody? I didn't, did you before, or something?

3. You haven't played any of Codemaster's games, have you (Colin McRae, TOCA Race Driver).

Either this is a bad joke, or you need to read posts.

4. Many ABS systems can and will lock-up if you lock all four wheels at the same time. Also, you're the first car enthusiast I know who would rather have ABS than no ABS.

Since when did I say I'd prefer ABS? where? please show me, please (we are playing video games, not actually driving, and since we don't have a realistic brake pedal, with realistic control, and everything else, yes, in a VIDEO GAME, when my options are skate like a dump truck, or turn, I'll take turning, thank you.

5. It is true that Enthusia's automatic clutch control gives too-perfect launches.

and yet they have a clutch button.....ingenius programming.

6. Everybody agrees that what's horrible? Enthusia's portrayal of the 'Ring? Having driven around the real course myself, I'm of the opinion that, aside from the lack of bumps, Enthusia's 'Ring is more accurate than GT4's.

I don't believe I said that, did I? show me.... please

7. The steering response is on the slow side, but I feel that it allows more precise driving. Overreaction with the steering is something I can't relate to, I'm afraid.

then you're not like 90% of the gaming community, with a controller.

Since we're mostly talking about sensitivity/feel here, it's all subjective, but I find it particularly amusing that you think GT4 allows you to steer smoothly and evenly. Maybe you can with "loads of practice," but I've had GT4 for a year-and-a-half and it still seems super-sensitive to me. Maybe you should spend some time to get "loads of practice" with Enthusia, so that you won't have as much trouble.

Or, you're just not good enough. If you find GT4 harder, and you've both equally, than I am better at the harder game.... that points toward you.

Change Enthusia's "spins 3X when turning" to something more like "spins 1.5X when turning," at most, and I'd pretty much agree with you.

270HP + 4th gear + 80mph = no tire spin! sliding, yes, spin, no. Bouncing off the rev-limiter? maybe if it's tires are 155's...

I'd describe GT4 as "seemed decent, unless you try to use the go-paddle or the stop-paddle to break into a drift or escape from understeer, then the only thing that breaks loose is the grip of your front tires."

I could only guess as to whether your talking about FF, MR, RR, FR, or 4WD. Because they're all different. And I could name some of them that easily do exactly what you're saying "GT4 Can't do".

There's only two that they share (the only two real-world tracks in Enthusia). From my experiences, Enthusia's 'Ring laptimes are much closer to reality, especially if you force yourself to get a no-black-flag time. I've never really tested Tsukuba.

Maybe for you, but I can take you to plenty of people who can't run fast enough with GT4, and people who burn real times by 10-20 seconds, like myself.

The braking doesn't seem that bad to me in EPR. Besides, no-ABS is what most racing sim afficiandos want.

If a car comes with it, it should be there, I don't care what "racing sim afficiandos" prefer, programming a "realistic" game, to have cars with or without ABS, when they come with/without it is the only way that makes sense, and it's the most realistic.

...what? Don't take offense to this, but is English your second language? I'm just curious.

I could really bust your balls here, but I won't.

Believe me when I say you're the first one to make that statement. Most would claim that the lift-off/braking/handbrake oversteer that you can get out of an FF in Enthusia is ridiculous.

are you saying FF's don't oversteer on lift throttle? or when you pull the e-brake? or when you slam the brakes full force, and turn hard? Like I said, drive a car on a track if you can, otherwise, go find an empty parking lot, better yet, drive in snow. Every tendency of a car is achieved much easier, and at a slower speed, so cruise a lot, in the snow, and watch your ff oversteer all over the road, except when your spinning the tires, (and some will then).

A. It's a Miata.
B. You do know that half of the video was filmed using a real-life car, right? That real-world Miata had no trouble attaining and holding power oversteer -- even with its "weak" 4-cylinder.

Remember when I said the graphics weren't that good? everythings so bubbly, I can't even tell a Miata from a Suzuki Cap.
Yes, a miata can "power-oversteer" at 40-50 mph. If you force it. If you don't want to drift a miata, it is very easy not to. you can even go full-throttle.

Oh wow! this surprised me.
So, a 155hp car, with a driver hell bent, and using the clutch, combined with over-zealous driving, and a "freaking" WET ROAD, can slide around?
You're right, I don't know what came over me, here I thought that wasn't the same as a 270hp car easily smoking it's tires at 80+mph, when the clutch is supposedly "super-smooth" and I'm actually trying NOT to slide.
Oh, did I mention the DRY ROAD PART?

For me, the fact that the bumps have almost no effect on your path of travel in GT4 negates their value, thus bringing me full-circle into appreciating Enthusia's Ring more.

Ummm.... so all those times bumps threw me off the track just after T1, I was actually hallucinating? and right after T9?
You know what your problem is? you need to actually play GT4....

I disagree. Much like wheelspin, hard braking has a much more realistic effect in EPR once you introduce some lateral G into the equation. If I'm careful not to get caught in understeer (which is a bit easier than it should be), I can use my brakes to initiate, modulate, or prolong oversteer in EPR. I can't say the same for GT4.

Again, I can do this, so for the very reason you claim I will "embarass myself" by posting a video, it sounds like you'd do the exact same with GT4, since you can't do these things: Modulate brakes, Control over/understeer, Accelerate without massive wheelspin, go fast enough on the 'Ring to get moved by any bumps, etc. (I could go on)

 

[Scaff]

I disagree. Much like wheelspin, hard braking has a much more realistic effect in EPR once you introduce some lateral G into the equation. If I'm careful not to get caught in understeer (which is a bit easier than it should be), I can use my brakes to initiate, modulate, or prolong oversteer in EPR. I can't say the same for GT4.

I can't agree with that, neither GT4 or Enthusia gets this right at all.

I've just taken a Mini for a spin around Wintertraum (a car I have driven in the snow on many occasions) and if you apply full braking force in a straight-line and then apply steering lock two things should happen.

First the tyres slip percentage should be exceeded as you apply full brake on snow, this quite simply does not happen at all. Secondly as steering lock is applied under full braking the addition of slip angle to the already overwhelming slip percentage should ensure a car that simply carries straight on, regardless of the steering applied. Enthusia does not model this at all, rather (as with GT4) it automatically threshold brakes for you, only the application of excessive slip angle causes a problem if you are turning while braking, the slip percentage does not.

I don't disagree that excessive positive slip percentages (cause by acceleration), are decently modelled, but negative slip percentages (braking are not. I'm also surprised you would say otherwise given how well LFS models this, apply full brakes in a straight line in LFS and then apply steering lock and the locked tyres will cause you to head straight on, as should happen. This simply is not the case in Enthusia (or GT4 for that matter), even in extreme conditions such as the wet, snow or dirt.

Personally, I don't mind having a non-ABS daily driver.

Try doing 14 hours days with an annual mileage of 30k, at 5.30am with black ice around I would not be without it.

For me, the fact that the bumps have almost no effect on your path of travel in GT4 negates their value, thus bringing me full-circle into appreciating Enthusia's Ring more.

I can't agree that the bumps on the 'ring in GT4 have no effect on the car (or the bumps on most tracks for that matter), depending on the car they certainly do and not just to direction of travel, but also with the ability to get power down on the road. Would you honestly say that you would not like to see the track surface detail from GT4 on all the tracks in Enthusia, particularly the 'ring?

Regards

Scaff

 

[Tornado]

It's called a burnout when a car is spinning it's tires, bouncing off the rev-limiter, right? And so what your telling me is, my credibility is shattered because I used an everyday car term?

No. Your use of car physics terminology when you use the wrong term to describe a relatively common action shatters your credibility as a person who understands car physics. It's called power oversteer, not "bouncing off of the rev-limiter just because you turned."

And you're also telling me, in 4th gear, an average powered stock car, is going to light up its tires like a christmas tree? And your questioning my credibility?

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised that it would, because since you were complaining about modulation you were obviously ham-fisting every action with the controller. Go drive a real G35 and flick the steering wheel full lock to the right whilst accelerating. I'm sure you will oversteer then too. Old Iroc Camaros and the like are famous for doing just that in practically any gear, despite being down about 70 or so BHP.

Who mentioned a miata? anybody? I didn't, did you before, or something?

I believe that is what is called an "example."

Either this is a bad joke, or you need to read posts.

No, you quite clearly said you haven't played any game since 1997 that has had such floaty feeling physics. In fact, I'll add to that: Every Toca game since 1997 (which is all 7 of them) has had floaty physics for a racing sim, as have all of the Colin McRae games.

Since when did I say I'd prefer ABS? where? please show me, please (we are playing video games, not actually driving, and since we don't have a realistic brake pedal, with realistic control, and everything else, yes, in a VIDEO GAME, when my options are skate like a dump truck, or turn, I'll take turning, thank you.

The problem is, though, that when you are locking up the brakes due to your apparent inability to modulate it realistically simulates the inability to turn in such circumstances.

and yet they have a clutch button.....ingenius programming.

Show me the clutch button in GT4 then. Oh, wait...

then you're not like 90% of the gaming community, with a controller.

And you apparently can't modulate the buttons/sticks correctly.

Or, you're just not good enough. If you find GT4 harder, and you've both equally, than I am better at the harder game.... that points toward you.

I like that. GT4 models something poorly, but it's Wolfe's fault. Nice.

I could only guess as to whether your talking about FF, MR, RR, FR, or 4WD. Because they're all different. And I could name some of them that easily do exactly what you're saying "GT4 Can't do".

Except, regardless of drivetrain, GT4 seems to suffer from a ridiculous phenomenon I like to call "Silly Implementation of Weight Transfer," (SIWT) which states that no matter the drivetrain the driven tires will spin if you use the throttle in turns. Which is even more baffling because PD had it modeled correctly before GT4 (though otherwise weight transfer is pretty good). I love how a particular Need For Speed game models the weight transfer effects acceleration has on Porsches better than GT4 does. Even better: Even though the rear tires are spinning, the car still doesn't want to oversteer! Its great!

Maybe for you, but I can take you to plenty of people who can't run fast enough with GT4, and people who burn real times by 10-20 seconds, like myself.

Not a real testament to the realism of the game if you can beat the best times set in real life by 10 to 20 seconds, now, is it? Which was kind of Wolfe's point.

If a car comes with it, it should be there, I don't care what "racing sim afficiandos" prefer, programming a "realistic" game, to have cars with or without ABS, when they come with/without it is the only way that makes sense, and it's the most realistic.

So, does that apply to cars that didn't come with it as well, such as anything made in the 60's and most cars made before '86? Because I believe GT4 would have a surprise in store for it.

are you saying FF's don't oversteer on lift throttle? or when you pull the e-brake? or when you slam the brakes full force, and turn hard?

They don't seem to do so in GT4. But I digress: I think you misunderstood what Wolfe said. He said it was ridiculous in amount. Not in concept. And then you came in here and said that what is generally agreed on is completely wrong and that EPR models FF's completly realistically.

Remember when I said the graphics weren't that good? everythings so bubbly, I can't even tell a Miata from a Suzuki Cap.
Yes, a miata can "power-oversteer" at 40-50 mph. If you force it. If you don't want to drift a miata, it is very easy not to. you can even go full-throttle.

Enthusia must be pretty good looking if you couldn't tell it was a Miata even after seeing the real life bits. Or maybe real life doesn't look good enough for you? And here's the problem: Even if you force it, it's very damned hard to make a Miata, or anything at all, power-oversteer in GT4!

Ummm.... so all those times bumps threw me off the track just after T1, I was actually hallucinating? and right after T9?
You know what your problem is? you need to actually play GT4....

You know what your problem is? You need to actually play Enthusia. And GT4. Because while I will admit that Enthusia is far from perfect, you seem to be zeroing in on things that Enthusia does better than GT4 anyways, and ignoring the things that GT4 actually does that are better than Enthusia.

Again, I can do this, so for the very reason you claim I will "embarass myself" by posting a video, it sounds like you'd do the exact same with GT4, since you can't do these things: Modulate brakes, Control over/understeer, Accelerate without massive wheelspin, go fast enough on the 'Ring to get moved by any bumps, etc. (I could go on)

First of all, I'd like to congragulate when you manage to control these very things in Enthusia. Get back to us when you are able to brake without locking up the tires or turn without power-oversteering.
Anyways, Wolfe here has already put together a video that answers most of your criticisms!

 

[rsmithdrift]

Deathclown, chill dude. I know this forum is hardcore EPR fans, but you don't have to yell at us and have a cow because we think the games better than GT4 and you think it's clearly not......

And did you watch my EPR drift vid. I feel this games only true physics flaw when driven with the DFP is that the tires do not loose traction enough when they are skidding.......see my earlier post along with scaff's that TOTALLY explain this. It's the opposite problem GT4 has.

Here's a link to that vid: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=88162

I'm having a hard time understanding what your trying to say is wrong with the game though........you seem to contradict yourself to me for some reason.

edit: I get what your saying now......and yes, what you describe happens almost exactly in real life, just not as much. If I'm going straight in my 240 I cannot even catch 2nd, no matter how hard I try. But if I turn and floor it in 3rd I can set the car sideways at 60mph and wheelspin the piss out of it into a spin if I didn't modulate the throttle. Have you ever mountian touge raced (grip)???? If so then you know you can't keep it floored through the turns IRL, or you'll get loose and spin. Rather, you feather the throttle to the point that the car is balanced. 9 to 1 that your NOT feathering the gas in EPR, especially since you use a controller. This is what everyone does wrong in realistic video games, they overpower and overdrive the cars so badly that they cannot be controlled. If I did in real life what most people do in video games, I'D BE DEAD! Because you just simply can't do that or you'll overcome the tires grip potential and then the grip falls off more as you start to slide which puts you into a very difficult, dangerous, position that usually ends in either a death spin, or a overcorrection and going straight off. You are a much better driver IRL than you think, you don't even realise how much you are using your senses to controll the car on the edge, you have none of these senses except site, which can only tell you after it's too late, in a video game. The DFP gives you one of the most important ones back, the sense of feel. And even then most misinterperet it. Even some of the best drivers and racing gamers misinterperet the DFP and can't drive it.

I think the real problem here is that this game is very different than most others and takes a long time to get used to. All my friends were like you and hated this game when I handed them the controller and a car on a track and said drive. But after I trained them about the way the cars handle, they took to it like a duck to water and now it's their favorite game. I even taught one of my friends how to drift using enthusia. Now he's actually pretty good at it in real life since I showed him how in EPR with my DFP/MC2 setup.

This game makes a bad impression on 90% of people because of this and most people go off of first impression and never play it again. If you stick with it I know you'd like it. Again, I am a mountian touge racer at night IRL (grip) and a drifter when it rains......I know how car's should handle, and EPR has it. GT4 just don't. GT4 would be good if only 1 thing was changed.....tire behavior. EPR doesn't have that perfect either, only lfs does in my opinion, but GT4 has it backwards and that just aint right.

PS. Wolfe, I know, your a pro with that controller as also one of my friends is. I don't see how you deal with the horrid, drastically slow, steering response of it in this game, but all the more power to you for it!

 

[Deathclown66]

this is probabley the funniest thing I've heard in a very long time.
I've got a room full of people telling, that I can't play Enthusia due to lack of ability/practice, and that's why the cars drive so poorly.
And then, you all turn around, and tell me all these things you can't make cars do in GT4, that I find quite easy, but you never check to see if your just not good enough, or haven't practiced enough.

Do you see your hypocrisy? or is it simply contradiction? double standard?

Oversteer? I can do it in GT4. Under? yep. Neutral? yep. Spin tires? not at 80 in a car without the power, no.

The problem is, though, that when you are locking up the brakes due to your apparent inability to modulate it realistically simulates the inability to turn in such circumstances.

We just discussed that almost EVERY car in EPR (stock ones), HAS ABS, ABS, ABS. Why do I have to repeat so much in here? A new car with ABS, does NOT lock up all4 wheels, and drive straight into the wall, no matter how hard you press the pedal.

And as for your, "crank the wheel and slam the gas" statements, what you don't realize, is that when we drive real cars, in real life, and we're racing, we never crank the wheel full tilt, not on street cars with 2.8 turns lock-to-lock, no sir.
So what is the purpose of programming a video game to crank the wheel farther than any racer ever would?
And I can modulate the throttle perfectly fine, granted, they have the pressure settings so high my thumb gets tired after 5 laps, but throttle control is easy, it's quite required in GT4, And I doubt there's a person in this room that can best me in GT4, anybody who'd like to claim I can't drive GT4, or need practice with it, or that what I say can't be done, just pick a car, that you feel can't do something it could IRL, let me know, and I'll give you a replay, otherwise, let it go. just, let it go.

Now, Back to EPR.
If you choose to believe that one could ever accidentally crank the wheel to lock position, and slam the gas pedal, and smoke the tires at 80+ in 4th gear, or any gear in your Camaro or whatever it is your claiming does burnouts at a million miles an hour, feel free, you can't fix stupid.

So, does that apply to cars that didn't come with it as well, such as anything made in the 60's and most cars made before '86? Because I believe GT4 would have a surprise in store for it.

And when did I say GT4 didn't have this problem?
But at least in GT, I can buy a balance controller to help the situation, unlike the "power", "weight", and "tires" upgrade bull from EPR.

No. Your use of car physics terminology when you use the wrong term to describe a relatively common action shatters your credibility as a person who understands car physics. It's called power oversteer, not "bouncing off of the rev-limiter just because you turned."

Does "power oversteer" define exactly how much the tires are spinning, or does it simply mean that I'm full power, and oversteering?
there is a difference, and it's quite large, since you clearly don't know any better.

Don't take offense.......(snip)

Likewise for this: How old are you three? (Wolf, Tornado, & Rsmithdrift)

@ rsmithdrift - you're saying the odds are 9-1? Put you're money on the 1, I can drive FF's in GT4.

 

[rsmithdrift]

Oh, and FYI, I'm really, really good at GT4 drifting.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQ82DlXNTQ

 

[Deathclown66]

Hey guys, I'm sorry. I just gave EPR another shot, and drove the '89 Skyline and NSX around the ring for about 20 minutes.
Somewhere between my car having a .8 second delay in response to my input, the hurky-jerky seesaw motion of the car, and it snapping back so viciously when I left off steering, and everything, I had a change of heart.
It was mid-turn, in T8, I entered to hot, and slid off into the sand trap, that's right, sand TRAP. A trap designed for stopping cars dead in their tracks, to save the lives of drivers, by keeping them from hitting the wall.
Anyways, I flew into the sand, but kept the wheel turned. Now, IRL, I would've pulled a quick spin or two, and stopped dead, quite possibly getting stuck, but EPR's real-life physics saved the day! wouldn't you know, I rounded the corner, never touching the wall, going 80+MPH, and gaining Speed!!!!! Whoo-hooo, this'll make the fans go crazy on raceday, when I use sand traps and grass as a passing lane, because I can also turn on grass at 130+mph as well!
Have fun with your Sega game guys!

 

[Wolfe]

Toronado already covered most of what I would have said in response to Deathclown.

are you saying FF's don't oversteer on lift throttle? or when you pull the e-brake? or when you slam the brakes full force, and turn hard? Like I said, drive a car on a track if you can, otherwise, go find an empty parking lot, better yet, drive in snow. Every tendency of a car is achieved much easier, and at a slower speed, so cruise a lot, in the snow, and watch your ff oversteer all over the road, except when your spinning the tires, (and some will then).

Cool, but you're preaching to the choir. You have no idea how many times I've given that exact same advice. I have messed around in a parking lot, I do goof off in rain/snow, and I have driven on a track.

If you think that the FF oversteer in Enthusia isn't unrealisitic, then I would somewhat agree with you. When I said, "most would claim that the lift-off/braking/handbrake oversteer that you can get out of an FF in Enthusia is ridiculous," I meant just that. Most people. Not me.

Ummm.... so all those times bumps threw me off the track just after T1, I was actually hallucinating? and right after T9?
You know what your problem is? you need to actually play GT4....

Did I not say "almost no effect?" They can cause wheelspin, yes, but that wheelspin has no direct effect on lateral motion. My video that Toronado posted demonstrates this.

I can't agree with that, neither GT4 or Enthusia gets this right at all.

I've just taken a Mini for a spin around Wintertraum (a car I have driven in the snow on many occasions) and if you apply full braking force in a straight-line and then apply steering lock two things should happen.

First the tyres slip percentage should be exceeded as you apply full brake on snow, this quite simply does not happen at all. Secondly as steering lock is applied under full braking the addition of slip angle to the already overwhelming slip percentage should ensure a car that simply carries straight on, regardless of the steering applied. Enthusia does not model this at all, rather (as with GT4) it automatically threshold brakes for you, only the application of excessive slip angle causes a problem if you are turning while braking, the slip percentage does not.

I don't disagree that excessive positive slip percentages (cause by acceleration), are decently modelled, but negative slip percentages (braking are not. I'm also surprised you would say otherwise given how well LFS models this, apply full brakes in a straight line in LFS and then apply steering lock and the locked tyres will cause you to head straight on, as should happen. This simply is not the case in Enthusia (or GT4 for that matter), even in extreme conditions such as the wet, snow or dirt.

Scaff, I don't think I've shared this with you before, so I'll say it now: The levels of grip in the dirt, gravel, and snow in Enthusia are just wrong. As entertaining as it is to drive around on Wintertraum, I would never claim that the level of grip on that track was particularly realistic.

I can't agree that the bumps on the 'ring in GT4 have no effect on the car (or the bumps on most tracks for that matter), depending on the car they certainly do and not just to direction of travel, but also with the ability to get power down on the road. Would you honestly say that you would not like to see the track surface detail from GT4 on all the tracks in Enthusia, particularly the 'ring?

Regards

Scaff

Have you seen my video about GT4? A car left to its own devices will simply travel straight, wheelspin or not. Even with cornering thrown in, the only effect bumps have is indirect, relying on the wheelspin that bumps can (but don't always) cause. And, as I've said many times before, the properties of wheelspin are incorrect in GT4.

 

[Tornado]

this is probabley the funniest thing I've heard in a very long time.
I've got a room full of people telling, that I can't play Enthusia due to lack of ability/practice, and that's why the cars drive so poorly.
And then, you all turn around, and tell me all these things you can't make cars do in GT4, that I find quite easy, but you never check to see if your just not good enough, or haven't practiced enough.

Lol, we all suck compared to Deathclown. I suggest you look up Scaff's excellent GT comparison thread and the GT4 vs. GT3 thread, and then tell us which magic switch you found to make GT4 in into the end-all racing sim that it so obviously is.

We just discussed that almost EVERY car in EPR (stock ones), HAS ABS, ABS, ABS. Why do I have to repeat so much in here? A new car with ABS, does NOT lock up all4 wheels, and drive straight into the wall, no matter how hard you press the pedal.

Actually, it is insanely easy to lock ABS brakes. All you need to do is pump them. Too much steering can also lock them.

And as for your, "crank the wheel and slam the gas" statements, what you don't realize, is that when we drive real cars, in real life, and we're racing, we never crank the wheel full tilt, not on street cars with 2.8 turns lock-to-lock, no sir.

Yet it would be very easy to do in a game when somone can't modulate the controller correctly. And it would happen just like that in real life as well if that was applied.

So what is the purpose of programming a video game to crank the wheel farther than any racer ever would?

What is the point in making a racing game that doesn't allow you to turn the wheel as much as you can in real life?

And I can modulate the throttle perfectly fine, granted, they have the pressure settings so high my thumb gets tired after 5 laps, but throttle control is easy, it's quite required in GT4, And I doubt there's a person in this room that can best me in GT4, anybody who'd like to claim I can't drive GT4, or need practice with it, or that what I say can't be done, just pick a car, that you feel can't do something it could IRL, let me know, and I'll give you a replay, otherwise, let it go. just, let it go.

Now, I'm going to act my age because you truly warranted it with that silly and needless gloatful paragraph:
Oh please, Deathclown, show us you 1337 gaming skillz, for we are unworthy of you greatness.

Now, Back to EPR.
If you choose to believe that one could ever accidentally crank the wheel to lock position, and slam the gas pedal, and smoke the tires at 80+ in 4th gear, or any gear in your Camaro or whatever it is your claiming does burnouts at a million miles an hour, feel free, you can't fix stupid.

And if you choose to believe that any moderately torquey RWD car doesn't have to deal with grip threshold, go right ahead. You can't fix fanboy-ism.

And when did I say GT4 didn't have this problem?
But at least in GT, I can buy a balance controller to help the situation, unlike the "power", "weight", and "tires" upgrade bull from EPR.

The thing is, though, that it doesn't solve the problem. It just modifies it so it is less noticeable. The cars still have ABS even if it isn't supposed to.

Does "power oversteer" define exactly how much the tires are spinning, or does it simply mean that I'm full power, and oversteering?
there is a difference, and it's quite large, since you clearly don't know any better.

Actually, it is niether of those. It is any instance where throttle application breaks the rear tires loose in a turn, regardless of amount of throttle applied.

Likewise for this: How old are you three? (Wolf, Tornado, & Rsmithdrift)

I'd like to know the relevance, as age doesn't stop close-mindedness that you are presenting, but 16.

Somewhere between my car having a .8 second delay in response to my input, the hurky-jerky seesaw motion of the car, and it snapping back so viciously when I left off steering, and everything, I had a change of heart.

I love how you continue to ignore the fact that GT4's most noticable flaw (and Scaff, by that I mean easiest to discern) is its snap oversteer. But still, down with Enthusia, yeah. GT4 is the best sim evah!!1!1one

Have fun with your Sega game guys!

Have fun with your over-rated excuse for a sim game! I'm going to go play Viper Racing.
And one more thing:

It was mid-turn, in T8, I entered to hot, and slid off into the sand trap, that's right, sand TRAP. A trap designed for stopping cars dead in their tracks, to save the lives of drivers, by keeping them from hitting the wall.

Right. That is exactly why they took them out of most Formula One circuits and replaced them with paved sections (as shown in in the GT4 tracks Suzuka at the 130R and Fuji 2005). Because it saves drivers' lives. Not because at high speeds the cars hop across them like skipping stones in a pond. But because they increase driver's safety.

 

[Leonidae]

's @ this sandbox fight.

 

[Deathclown66]

Lol, we all suck compared to Deathclown. I suggest you look up Scaff's excellent GT comparison thread, and then tell us which magic switch you found to make GT4 in into the end-all racing sim that it so obviously is.

When did I say GT4 was the end-all? I said it makes EPR look stupid, that's all. (misquotes are one of the reason I ask age)

Actually, it is insanely easy to lock ABS brakes. All you need to do is pump them. Too much steering can also lock them.

Drive a car. They constantly lock and unlock, at a ratio of (varying) .5 lock, .5 unlock. You'll learn that soon enough though, I guess.
But if you can't understand Anti-Lock Brakes, that'll be just one more thing damaging your credibility.

Yet it would be very easy to do in a game when somone can't modulate the controller correctly. And it would happen just like that in real life as well if that was applied.

Too bad you don't realize that EPR isn't turning the wheel to full lock position.

What is the point in making a racing game that doesn't allow you to turn the wheel as much as you can in real life?

Because it would be to difficult for anything short of a wheel, and most customers don't have wheels, and they want to sell games. Besides, neither does it, you should know that.

Now, I'm going to act my age because you truly warranted it with that silly and needless gloatful paragraph:
Oh please, Deathclown, show us you 1337 gaming skillz, for we are unworthy of you greatness.

Your the one who brought individual "skillz" into it, and I asked you to back your unfounded statements up.
You got a problem with that?

And if you choose to believe that any moderately torquey RWD car doesn't have to deal with grip threshold, go right ahead. You can't fix fanboy-ism.

So I'm a fanboy of.......
You still think 270hp = burnouts at 80+

The thing is, though, that it doesn't solve the problem. It just modifies it so it is less noticeable. The cars still have ABS even if it isn't supposed to.

Better than nothing, so why say this?

Actually, it is niether of those. It is any instance where throttle application breaks the rear tires loose in a turn, regardless of amount of throttle applied.

Exactly. (which is the first, since you couldn't understand) That doesn't let any reader realize that I'm talking a good ol' tire blazin', rubber burnin', ear piercin' smokeshow.

I'd like to know the relevance, as age doesn't stop close-mindedness that you are presenting, but 16.

Actually, age increases close-mindedness. It also increases intelligence, and knowledge, and real-world experience.

I love how you continue to ignore the fact that GT4's most noticable flaw (and Scaff, by that I mean easiest to discern) is its snap oversteer. But still, down with Enthusia, yeah. GT4 is the best sim evah!!1!1one

A. Snap oversteer? maybe on some MR's, but that's it. What about the other 95% of the cars?
And what the hell is this 1! 1! one! crap?

Have fun with your over-rated excuse for a sim game! I'm going to go play Viper Racing.

says the EPR fan.

Right. That is exactly why they took them out of most Formula One circuits and replaced them with paved sections (as shown in in the GT4 tracks Suzuka at the 130R and Fuji 2005). Because it saves drivers' lives. Not because at high speeds the cars hop across them like skipping stones in a pond. But because they increase driver's safety.

Are formula one cars in EPR? cause I've seen plenty of other race cars and street cars stop dead in sand, but hey, if you think a stock NSX can turn, and accelerate, around a bend in a sandtrap, it simply amplifies your ignorance to this entire subject.

Cool, but you're preaching to the choir. You have no idea how many times I've given that exact same advice. I have messed around in a parking lot, I do goof off in rain/snow, and I have driven on a track.

Actually, (and I hoped somebody would catch it, but nobody did), driving in snow does not reflect what a car will do on a dry road.
There is no marginal amount of weight transfer, the very weight transfer that is inevitable on a grippier surface, and can drastically change the characteristics of a car.

If you think that the FF oversteer in Enthusia isn't unrealisitic, then I would somewhat agree with you. When I said, "most would claim that the lift-off/braking/handbrake oversteer that you can get out of an FF in Enthusia is ridiculous," I meant just that. Most people. Not me.

Well, we at least partially agree on something then.


Now, I was told last night that EPR times are closer to real 'Ring times than GT4's, especially when you get no black flags.
Anybody got any?
Anybody got any GT4 times driven to the same rules as the EPR black flag rule?

@Wolfe: You said GT4 has to much cornering grip, right?
And the tire spin isn't enough when cornering, right?

 

[Tornado]

When did I say GT4 was the end-all? I said it makes EPR look stupid, that's all. (misquotes are one of the reason I ask age)

I seem to recall you barging into this thread and proudly declaring that anyone who thought that EPR was remotely realistic was ignorant, and that GT4 was for people who actually understood how cars worked. Now, if you can't get your own ruthless and shameless promoting of GT4 from your own quotes than I can't help you. This is all despite the assertions over the thread the GT4 and EPR are equal in that the have the same amount of physics flaws in different areas.

Drive a car. They constantly lock and unlock, at a ratio of (varying) .5 lock, .5 unlock.

Very true, and I never said otherwise. But physically pumping the brakes yourself can and almost always does lock them, as does multiple steering changes under heavy braking.

You'll learn that soon enough though, I guess.

Oh, clever. So, despite knowing nothing about my driving record, the amount of classes I've taken or my technical knowledge about automobiles in general, you make blanket statement about my age in relation to my driving skill in a discussion that has nothing to do with my driving skill in real life. You are a pretty clever guy.

But if you can't understand Anti-Lock Brakes, that'll be just one more thing damaging your credibility.

Your the one who thinks it is physically impossible to lock up anti-lock brakes. I could scan the damned manual for my car which tell you what not to do to prevent locking them. So, who knows more? You, or me and Chevrolet?

Because it would be to difficult for anything short of a wheel, and most customers don't have wheels, and they want to sell games. Besides, neither does it, you should know that.

Oh, I'm so sorry that it doesn't allow you to turn the wheel as much as every car in the world does. But I have no damned problem playing EPR on a controller. And the best thing (well, second best)? I don't even use the analog sticks in practically any other game! Yes, I am able to apparently play the game better than you without even using the axis with the most travel usually. I must be some kind of Enthusia god!
But the real best thing? A good portion of your arguments apply to GT4 as well, and this one doesn't dissapoint: GT4 plays far better with the wheel as well (sadly, however, the game still suffers from snap oversteer)! Oh my god!

Your the one who brought individual "skillz" into it, and I asked you to back your unfounded statements up.
You got a problem with that?

I did back my "unfounded statements" up. You have yet to do so, and further more you felt the need to say that your greatness in GT4 was so unparalled that you have managed to overcome the physics flaws the game so proudly displays.

So I'm a fanboy of.......
You still think 270hp = burnouts at 80+

Gran Turismo 4. Oh, and I have actually driven cars with torque. It's far easier than you seem to think it is to burn out the rears in a turn. And I'll say why again: Grip Threshold.

Better than nothing, so why say this?

Because buying an upgrade to do something doesn't exactly count as negatin a physics flaw.

Exactly. (which is the first, since you couldn't understand)

Actually, it isn't. I'd say "exactly how much the tires are spinning" is considerably different from any action that lead to the tires spinning.

Actually, age increases close-mindedness. It also increases intelligence, and knowledge, and real-world experience.

I can only guess which one it increased in your case.

A. Snap oversteer? maybe on some MR's, but that's it. What about the other 95% of the cars?

Did you even watch Wolfe's video? Jesus, you are stubborn. Simply tapping a opposite direction of which you are going usually leads to drastic and unecessary snap-oversteer in GT4.

says the EPR fan.

No, I like both games. I'm just not ignorant enough to think that GT4 excels EPR in every single way (or vice versa), or that either of the two are even remotely towards the top of the driving simulator pile.

Are formula one cars in EPR? cause I've seen plenty of other race cars and street cars stop dead in sand, but hey, if you think a stock NSX can turn, and accelerate, around a bend in a sandtrap, it simply amplifies your ignorance to this entire subject.

No, I was just targeting you overall ignorance as to how sandtraps actually work. Cars going at high speed skip across them like stones, proven over the last 2 decades alone countless times.

 

[Deathclown66]

I seem to recall you barging into this thread and proudly declaring that anyone who thought that EPR was remotely realistic was ignorant, and that GT4 was for people who actually understood how cars worked. Now, if you can't get your own ruthless and shameless promoting of GT4 from your own quotes than I can't help you. This is all despite the assertions over the thread the GT4 and EPR are equal in that the have the same amount of physics flaws in different areas.

Shameless promoting? Where? when I said it was clearly the best I can buy? (that means, PS2 games, because I'm not indulging all of my money in multiple gaming sytems)

Very true, and I never said otherwise. But physically pumping the brakes yourself can and almost always does lock them, as does multiple steering changes under heavy braking.

For tenths of a second, and then they unlock
You cannot make a car with a functioning ABS system skid to a stop, or make it keep the tires locked for more than a very brief amount of time, unless you are on a road surface with nearly zero grip.
They will not lock mid-turn, and stay locked until you let off.
And if you meant that they'll lock for half a second, then you're repeating me, and stating a worldwide known fact.

Oh, clever. So, despite knowing nothing about my driving record, the amount of classes I've taken or my technical knowledge about automobiles in general, you make blanket statement about my age in relation to my driving skill in a discussion that has nothing to do with my driving skill in real life. You are a pretty clever guy.

You think cars do burnouts at "ludacris speed", what else would I think?

Your the one who thinks it is physically impossible to lock up anti-lock brakes. I could scan the damned manual for my car which tell you what not to do to prevent locking them. So, who knows more? You, or me and Chevrolet?

Me and Chevrolet. You are misinterpreting something along the line, a major reason I firmly believe you have never driven an ABS equipped car, or at least "locked up the tires". (the latter because you can't)
(latter means the second, so don't go posting crap about being old enough to drive)

Oh, I'm so sorry that it doesn't allow you to turn the wheel as much as every car in the world does. But I have no damned problem playing EPR on a controller. And the best thing (well, second best)? I don't even use the analog sticks in practically any other game! Yes, I am able to apparently play the game better than you without even using the axis with the most travel usually. I must be some kind of Enthusia god!
But the real best thing? A good portion of your arguments apply to GT4 as well, and this one doesn't dissapoint: GT4 plays far better with the wheel as well (sadly, however, the game still suffers from snap oversteer)! Oh my god!

I never said driving EPR was impossible. Did I?
Wolfe said he found GT4 very difficult to drive smoothly, yet I can. did you see me asking him if I was a GT4 god?
GT4 is better with a wheel? I'm sure it is a little, but I also see many Div 1 drivers with controllers, including some of the best on this site. And I also saw Holl01 using a DS2 for a specific race, because it was faster

You're still neglecting the fact that neither game turns full-tilt. neither game is programmed to have the wheel turned to lock. So your arguments that "cranking the wheel, and slamming the gas" is what makes burnouts happen at 80+, is an argument about something that nobody can try in EPR or GT4.

I did back my "unfounded statements" up. You have yet to do so, and further more you felt the need to say that your greatness in GT4 was so unparalled that you have managed to overcome the physics flaws the game so proudly displays.

No you didn't. You claimed that I couldn't play either game well. Or was that only Wolfe? Either way, I see no display of any of your abilitys. And you are right, I haven't shown anything either. that's because you initiated, so put up. It's that simple. You put up something good, and I'll do the same. until then, your statements about my gaming ability are not only null and childish, but also make you look sort of cowardly now.

Gran Turismo 4. Oh, and I have actually driven cars with torque. It's far easier than you seem to think it is to burn out the rears in a turn. And I'll say why again: Grip Threshold.

So a grip threshold , makes it easier to spin the tires? And your talking about physics?
A grip threshold, is already there, it's permanent, it doesnt make anything easier or harder, it makes it the way it is, was, and will always be.
And there are plenty of cars that exceed the threshold, but still don't have enough power to keep the tires spinning, and consequently, stop spinning them.
(torque doesnt spin tires, torque + rpm's spins tires. )

Because buying an upgrade to do something doesn't exactly count as negatin a physics flaw.

It's still better than nothing, so why did you post this, you know its better than nothing.

Actually, it isn't. I'd say "exactly how much the tires are spinning" is considerably different from any action that lead to the tires spinning.

Good thing I wasn't talking about what lead to the tires spinning then, huh?

I can only guess which one it increased in your case.

All of the above, like it does for everybody.
You're very bad at this smartass thing.

Did you even watch Wolfe's video? Jesus, you are stubborn. Simply tapping a opposite direction of which you are going usually leads to drastic and unecessary snap-oversteer in GT4.

Did I say I did? No I did not. I have dial-up. I'm not waiting for an hour, just to see somebody "demonstration", when I can try it myself.

No, I like both games. I'm just not ignorant enough to think that GT4 excels EPR in every single way (or vice versa), or that either of the two are even remotely towards the top of the driving simulator pile.

For PS2 they are, and that's all I buy, cause I don't like spending money on 300$ game systems very often.

No, I was just targeting you overall ignorance as to how sandtraps actually work. Cars going at high speed skip across them like stones, proven over the last 2 decades alone countless times.

And your judgement of my "overall sandtrap function" knowledge was based on........(drumroll).............. Me saying it was insane that I drove around a corner, at 80mph, increasing speed, and taking the turn!💡

 

[uM_Jammer]

Hey Wolfe,

That was a pretty entertaining GT4 physics vid. Good job. 👍

---

FWIW, I've driven a Miata just like EPR's on track, and I honestly can't make a judgement on the realism of EPR based on that because I was way too chicken to push my own car as hard as I do in game.

I can't drift worth a damn in real life, but I can in EPR, easily. I'd say based on my limited experience that breaking loose the rear on power is a bit more abrupt in real life, and so is regaining grip (the whole snapping back thing).

As for GT4, it just all feels wrong.

---

rsmithdrift,

If you have the time, I'd love to see a vid!!!

 

[Tornado]

Shameless promoting? Where? when I said it was clearly the best I can buy? (that means, PS2 games, because I'm not indulging all of my money in multiple gaming sytems)

This company thought they could whip out something better than the Console-Racing masters, with half the work. Surprise, they failed miserably.

Anybody that claims EPR "more realistic" than GT4, needs to get 3 things: 1. A driver's license. 2. A car. 3. A road. After that, all the have to do is mix the three things, and they'll realize what a peice of crap EPR is.

Now, maybe it's just me, but both of those statements (and the first in particular) makes it sound very much like your opinon seems to be: if it isn't GT4 and/or made by PD, and it's on a console, than it sucks. And your Sega-based comments makes me assume your are talking about Sega GT (which I will admite was heavily flawed):

horrific-we-made-ps2-seem-like-sega tuning options.

Have fun with your Sega game guys!

But they also tell me dead-on that you have never touched (and Wolfe will give me hell for this) Ferrari F355 Challenge or its Dreamcast brother F355 Challenge; because, while the physics engine is a little wonky in places, the tuning in those two is rediculously detailed.

For tenths of a second, and then they unlock
You cannot make a car with a functioning ABS system skid to a stop, or make it keep the tires locked for more than a very brief amount of time, unless you are on a road surface with nearly zero grip.
They will not lock mid-turn, and stay locked until you let off.
And if you meant that they'll lock for half a second, then you're repeating me, and stating a worldwide known fact.

And if you continously pump the brakes and/or make constant steering corretions, they will continue to lock after they unlock.

You think cars do burnouts at "ludacris speed", what else would I think?

First of all, tell me what you mean by burning out. Do you mean actually burning out, a little tire spin, or power oversteer? Burning out while going straight is rediculous. Doing so in a turn is not.

Me and Chevrolet. You are misinterpreting something along the line, a major reason I firmly believe you have never driven an ABS equipped car, or at least "locked up the tires".

Well, let's see, I've driven 4 cars with ABS:
Dodge Neon ACR? Have gotten the front and rear tires to lock up.
Dodge Shadow V6? Gotten the rears to lock.
Chevrolet S-10 Blazer? Nope, can't say I ever have with that, no.
Chevrolet Silverado? Haven't driven it for more than 100 yards, so never used it's panic stopping ability.
Now, granted I didn't slide for 50 feet until the car came to a stop, but I was hardly racing them when the need to panic stop arose.

(latter means the second, so don't go posting crap about being old enough to drive)

Thanks for the 8th grade English lesson.

I never said driving EPR was impossible. Did I?
Wolfe said he found GT4 very difficult to drive smoothly, yet I can. did you see me asking him if I was a GT4 god?
GT4 is better with a wheel? I'm sure it is a little, but I also see many Div 1 drivers with controllers, including some of the best on this site. And I also saw Holl01 using a DS2 for a specific race, because it was faster

That's because some people are more apt at using the controller than the wheel. I can't use the wheel with either games with much success, and I can't even use the analog sticks in GT4. I don't have Wolfe's problem of controlling GT4 smoothly until I try to drift, and even then the problem isn't too bad; and either way I still recognize the fact that it can be recognized as being over-sensitive. I've adapted to that over time, but I realise that the problem is still there.

You're still neglecting the fact that neither game turns full-tilt. neither game is programmed to have the wheel turned to lock. So your arguments that "cranking the wheel, and slamming the gas" is what makes burnouts happen at 80+, is an argument about something that nobody can try in EPR or GT4.

I see your point. But EPR trying to emulate the ability to do so doesn't come off to me as too much of a problem, though I will concede that the handling can be rather sensitive in my playing of it (which may or may not be mostly due in part to my handling of the analog sticks without experience in it in other games) due to that fact.

No you didn't. You claimed that I couldn't play either game well. Or was that only Wolfe? Either way, I see no display of any of your abilitys. And you are right, I haven't shown anything either. that's because you initiated, so put up. It's that simple. You put up something good, and I'll do the same. until then, your statements about my gaming ability are not only null and childish, but also make you look sort of cowardly now.

I fail to see where I mentioned that where my abilities were above yours. That was merely a way of saying off-hand that you make it sound like you have reached some level where the physics flaws such as the snap-oversteer and silly brakes in some cars doesn't apply to you in GT4 where they are typically agreed to be more common, but only in EPR. I chalk this up more to lack of playtime more than anything.

So a grip threshold , makes it easier to spin the tires? And your talking about physics?

No, that's not at all what I was trying to say. Tires have a certain amount of grip that is permanent, as you said. When you try to do more than one thing at once (for example, turning hard while under heavy braking, or accelerating hard while turning), what normally wouldn't happen with only one action (such as tire-spin in a high gear) happens (such as power-oversteer). When a tire is sliding sideways it has less grip than if it is moving laterally, and hard acceleration or braking only disturb the manner more. There is a chart I've seen before that helps explain this. I will try and find it.

A grip threshold, is already there, it's permanent, it doesnt make anything easier or harder, it makes it the way it is, was, and will always be.
And there are plenty of cars that exceed the threshold, but still don't have enough power to keep the tires spinning, and consequently, stop spinning them.

Again, when a tire exceeds its grip while turning in a RWD car, the rears will spin until the car is going straight. Continual steering inputs don't help matters, so if you continue to go through the turn and don't back off of the throttle, the rear tires will continue to spin. Now, making the assumption that you haven't done any tight turns at 80MPH in real life, I don't see it as too unreasonable that in a tight turn at any speed if the steering inputs were to sharp or far the rear end would start to com around, beginning with the rear tires spinning. After they started the car would begin to come around faster, and the tires would continue to spin unless you modulated the throttle to either straighten out or keep it at a constant RPM so it didn't hit the rev-limiter. The fact that the rear's started spinning means it is going to

It's still better than nothing, so why did you post this, you know its better than nothing.

It also still doesn't mean that GT4 models brakes better, either. It is a weakness that both games share. It's just that in GT4 you can spend time making the problem go away. There are cars in both games that have truly wonky brakes, such as the Chevrolet Corvette C1 on the silly good brakes side Skyline BLRA Sport Coupe and Mercedes SL and Cizeta Moroder in the stupidly poor vrakes category in GT4.

Did I say I did? No I did not. I have dial-up. I'm not waiting for an hour, just to see somebody "demonstration", when I can try it myself.

And how will you know what the video covers? It specifically answers your queries on GT4 bump modeling and snap oversteer, not to mention the lack of oversteer in general. I can relate to Wolfe's claims because I have experienced every one of them. I cannot relate to yours because, other than few cars in particular that break GT4's typical understeery nature, I can't relate to them.

For PS2 they are, and that's all I buy, cause I don't like spending money on 300$ game systems very often.

Which is even sadder (in both cases), because Viper Racing, GPL and Sports Car GT (though GPL is a little dated these days) model pretty much everything better than both games and all came out around 1998.

And your judgement of my "overall sandtrap function" knowledge was based on........(drumroll).............. Me saying it was insane that I drove around a corner, at 80mph, increasing speed, and taking the turn!💡

In a 4WD car (I'm assuming) with an active transfer case. Your main point was that it should stop the car. While I admit the speed was a little high to keep control of the car and even more so for it to keep accelerating, there is no real reason for it to have stopped unless you tried to stop it.




In closing, I feel you seem to be pushing that my viewpoint is that EPR is any better than GT4. I don't really think that it is. I do think, however, that it simulates certain areas better than GT4 does and vice versa. I will also say that I am not as good a Enthusia as I am in GT4, so don't try and take it like I'm saying your problems with the game a merely because of lack of skill. But they are due to lack of practice, and I'm sure if you were willing to give Enthusia more time you would find that some of it's problems (not all) are due to your inexperience with it based on a rental.

 

[Deathclown66]

Now, maybe it's just me, but both of those statements (and the first in particular) makes it sound very much like your opinon seems to be: if it isn't GT4 and/or made by PD, and it's on a console, than it sucks. And your Sega-based comments makes me assume your are talking about Sega GT (which I will admite was heavily flawed):

The console (PS2), masters, IMO, are PD.
No, I was talking about genesis. I never played Sega GT, so I don't comment about it.

But they also tell me dead-on that you have never touched (and Wolfe will give me hell for this) Ferrari F355 Challenge or its Dreamcast brother F355 Challenge; because, while the physics engine is a little wonky in places, the tuning in those two is rediculously detailed.

Correct!

And if you continously pump the brakes and/or make constant steering corretions, they will continue to lock after they unlock.

This happens in a straight line as well. Lock, unlock, lock, unlock, lock, unlock,.....that is what ABS does.

First of all, tell me what you mean by burning out. Do you mean actually burning out, a little tire spin, or power oversteer? Burning out while going straight is rediculous. Doing so in a turn is not.

If you don't know what a burnout is, why are we here? Burning out, and the kind of crap I'm complaining about, is my stock 270hp skyline, acting like that red HKS drift car at 80+ mph.

Well, let's see, I've driven 4 cars with ABS:
Dodge Neon ACR? Have gotten the front and rear tires to lock up.
Dodge Shadow V6? Gotten the rears to lock.
Chevrolet S-10 Blazer? Nope, can't say I ever have with that, no.
Chevrolet Silverado? Haven't driven it for more than 100 yards, so never used it's panic stopping ability.
Now, granted I didn't slide for 50 feet until the car came to a stop, but I was hardly racing them when the need to panic stop arose.

I could say that's 2 cars, and 2 trucks..... Two options here: 1. You consider a fraction of a second, "locking the tires up, or 2. You thought they were locked the whole time while the abs locked and unlocked them.

Thanks for the 8th grade English lesson.

I don't remember what this is about, but I've been meaning to ask you if you could try a little harder, your constant mispelling of simple words, like spelling "the" when you mean "they", makes your posts a world difficult to read at times.

That's because some people are more apt at using the controller than the wheel. I can't use the wheel with either games with much success, and I can't even use the analog sticks in GT4. I don't have Wolfe's problem of controlling GT4 smoothly until I try to drift, and even then the problem isn't too bad; and either way I still recognize the fact that it can be recognized as being over-sensitive. I've adapted to that over time, but I realise that the problem is still there.

I only use the sticks in any game. If the game doesnt allow the use of analog sticks, I don't play. GT4 works great for me, so I can't say there's a problem.

I see your point. But EPR trying to emulate the ability to do so doesn't come off to me as too much of a problem, though I will concede that the handling can be rather sensitive in my playing of it (which may or may not be mostly due in part to my handling of the analog sticks without experience in it in other games) due to that fact.

The steering response is just to slow, and here's why: If a programmer makes a steering response slow, trying to emulate the time it takes to turn a wheel, and somebody can turn a wheel faster than they programmed the limit, they will unfairly handicap the driver(s), that can turn it faster.

I fail to see where I mentioned that where my abilities were above yours. That was merely a way of saying off-hand that you make it sound like you have reached some level where the physics flaws such as the snap-oversteer and silly brakes in some cars doesn't apply to you in GT4 where they are typically agreed to be more common, but only in EPR. I chalk this up more to lack of playtime more than anything.

Depends on the brakes, and the car. Like the Zonda? good brakes, just going extremely fast, is all.
As for snap-oversteer, the form you are talking about (which I believe isn't snap-oversteer), when counter-steering a slide, or drift, comes down to persoanl ability, and I rarely over-correct a car, and it's been quite a while since it has happened to me.
What I think is snap-oversteer, is when your turning, and the rear tires suddenly/viciously lose grip, causing the rear to oversteer with a "snap"-like effect.

No, that's not at all what I was trying to say. Tires have a certain amount of grip that is permanent, as you said. When you try to do more than one thing at once (for example, turning hard while under heavy braking, or accelerating hard while turning), what normally wouldn't happen with only one action (such as tire-spin in a high gear) happens (such as power-oversteer). When a tire is sliding sideways it has less grip than if it is moving laterally, and hard acceleration or braking only disturb the manner more. There is a chart I've seen before that helps explain this. I will try and find it.

Yes, I read the gran turismo 3 booklet, and I understand. But two problems still exist: 1. a tire moving laterally, is the same as a tire sliding sideways, so that's kinda not true. (sideways = lateral). 2. When I say a car won't do burnouts while cornering at 80mph, I mean just that. Clearly the car won't spin it's tires in a straight line at even half the speed. (despite rsmithdrifts claims that his 155hp car's "tires won't grab in second gear", there's a difference between a small bit of spinning, and a burnout, and I know 155HP, doesn't achieve burnouts to 55mph in a straight-line, because 300hp doesn't even do that.

Again, when a tire exceeds its grip while turning in a RWD car, the rears will spin until the car is going straight. Continual steering inputs don't help matters, so if you continue to go through the turn and don't back off of the throttle, the rear tires will continue to spin. Now, making the assumption that you haven't done any tight turns at 80MPH in real life, I don't see it as too unreasonable that in a tight turn at any speed if the steering inputs were to sharp or far the rear end would start to com around, beginning with the rear tires spinning. After they started the car would begin to come around faster, and the tires would continue to spin unless you modulated the throttle to either straighten out or keep it at a constant RPM so it didn't hit the rev-limiter. The fact that the rear's started spinning means it is going to

1. How sharp a corner is an infinity going to take at 80?
2. Do you think it will spin the tires at 120, in a curve?
3. How about 160?
The point is, there is a limit, and 270-290hp, doesn't smoke tires in gears over 2nd. (given normal gears) Let alone 4th.

It also still doesn't mean that GT4 models brakes better, either. It is a weakness that both games share. It's just that in GT4 you can spend time making the problem go away. There are cars in both games that have truly wonky brakes, such as the Chevrolet Corvette C1 on the silly good brakes side Skyline BLRA Sport Coupe and Mercedes SL and Cizeta Moroder in the stupidly poor vrakes category in GT4.

The Cizeta doesn't have poor brakes. It has a combination of these things:
1. Loads of speed.
2. Average handling.
3. Average stopping ability.
All of these combined make the car going far faster than most cars, entering, and it needs to slow-down to sport-family-tourer-ish speeds to go around the corner, meaning it needs to slow down far more than, say, the Ford GT, SLR, Zonda, SRT-10, etc.
And how will you know what the video covers? It specifically answers your queries on GT4 bump modeling and snap oversteer, not to mention the lack of oversteer in general. I can relate to Wolfe's claims because I have experienced every one of them. I cannot relate to yours because, other than few cars in particular that break GT4's typical understeery nature, I can't relate to them.
Why don't you tell me what cars/situations are used, and I can just try them.
I know bumps have an effect, maybe not as much as Wolfe would like, maybe not as much as real, I don't know, I've never gotten air at any speed over 85mph, so I can't say. I can say that a moving van in unaffected by ramping 6-10 inches at 85, but I can't say what a Zonda would do with 18in of air at 150mph, because I've never driven the car, let alone gotten air at 150.
Have you guys driven a Miata in GT4, on N2's? Extremely oversteery car, I was screwing around with it this morning, and it can power-induce a slide in 3rd gear, at 60mph.
Anyway, you can't just say "lack of oversteer in general", because I can name cars all day that have plenty of oversteer, whether it's from power or chassis, they're there.

Which is even sadder (in both cases), because Viper Racing, GPL and Sports Car GT (though GPL is a little dated these days) model pretty much everything better than both games and all came out around 1998.Out of those, are any made for the PS(1,2) system? I've only heard of Sports car GT, and I don't remember where, but for right now, I think I've about had it with trying new car games, because most simply suck at simulation.

In a 4WD car (I'm assuming) with an active transfer case. Your main point was that it should stop the car. While I admit the speed was a little high to keep control of the car and even more so for it to keep accelerating, there is no real reason for it to have stopped unless you tried to stop it.

Show me a car try to drive through a sandtrap, for hundreds of yards, without at least slowing to a near halt, and I'll believe it.

In closing, I feel you seem to be pushing that my viewpoint is that EPR is any better than GT4. I don't really think that it is. I do think, however, that it simulates certain areas better than GT4 does and vice versa. I will also say that I am not as good a Enthusia as I am in GT4, so don't try and take it like I'm saying your problems with the game a merely because of lack of skill. But they are due to lack of practice, and I'm sure if you were willing to give Enthusia more time you would find that some of it's problems (not all) are due to your inexperience with it based on a rental.

And you're missing my point. I own some games that I've basically never played, such as Auto Modellista, and Supercar(s)?? or something like that.
I tried both, and they sucked, after a few attempts, I realized I hated them, so I never played them again.
I flat-out hate EPR. I hate the way everything looks, I hate the Nurburgring as dark as they have it. I hate how hard you have to push the gas pedal, and I hate finding myself 80% throttle because I wasn't pushing hard enough to be 100%. I hate the car selection, and I hate they way you unlock cars. I hate the "enthusia" points system. I hate the menu layout with a passion. I hate the tuning options, and that you don't have the choice to keep your car stock. I hate not being able to test my cars, and subsequently, their 1/4 mile times, and full mile times, along with top speed. I hate the tracks. I hate the AI just as much as GT's. I hate the apparent "betting", mainly because betting on your own events is almost always forbidden, and certainly Illegal. I hate the steering. I hate the way when I stop steering, the car pulls back visciously, seeming to pull the opposite direction I turned. I hate the way cars wil never lock the brakes, but when you turn, they'll lock and send you into the wilderness. I hate the excessive oversteer/burnouts. I hate the useless clutch function. (if it was needed to shift, it'd be awesome), but then I'd hate having to use it to downshift.
I really hate the way they claim "real driving physics", showing a video of two cars, one real and one fake, wherein it is quite clear that the real car is getting half it's oversteer from chassis, and steering input, and the game car is all from spinning the rear tires. I also hate the way the videos don't even match. I love the way the real car had some problems getting enough power oversteer, and they show a clip of a failed attempt.
EPR has nothing to offer me in terms of gain.

Is GT4 perfect? Not by a long shot.
But it's far better than EPR.

 

[Tornado]

If you don't know what a burnout is, why are we here? Burning out, and the kind of crap I'm complaining about, is my stock 270hp skyline, acting like that red HKS drift car at 80+ mph.

I know what a burnout is. I'm trying to determine whether you mean in a turn they spin or going straight they spin.

I could say that's 2 cars, and 2 trucks..... Two options here: 1. You consider a fraction of a second, "locking the tires up, or 2. You thought they were locked the whole time while the abs locked and unlocked them.

The rear tires on the Shadow locked up and stayed locked (rubber patch-like) until the car stopped. The Neon skidded under lock-up for about 1.5-2 seconds before stopping being locked up, with tire patches and all.

The steering response is just to slow, and here's why: If a programmer makes a steering response slow, trying to emulate the time it takes to turn a wheel, and somebody can turn a wheel faster than they programmed the limit, they will unfairly handicap the driver(s), that can turn it faster.

Okay.

Depends on the brakes, and the car. Like the Zonda? good brakes, just going extremely fast, is all.

Untrue. Braking ability is based purely on modulation and tire footprint, not brake quality. A good discussion based on that.

As for snap-oversteer, the form you are talking about (which I believe isn't snap-oversteer), when counter-steering a slide, or drift, comes down to persoanl ability, and I rarely over-correct a car, and it's been quite a while since it has happened to me.
What I think is snap-oversteer, is when your turning, and the rear tires suddenly/viciously lose grip, causing the rear to oversteer with a "snap"-like effect.

A common misconception: Snap-oversteer is due to overcorrection, but when the rears lose grip it is lift throttle. A better explanation Part 1 and Part 2.

Yes, I read the gran turismo 3 booklet, and I understand. But two problems still exist: 1. a tire moving laterally, is the same as a tire sliding sideways, so that's kinda not true. (sideways = lateral). 2. When I say a car won't do burnouts while cornering at 80mph, I mean just that. Clearly the car won't spin it's tires in a straight line at even half the speed. (despite rsmithdrifts claims that his 155hp car's "tires won't grab in second gear", there's a difference between a small bit of spinning, and a burnout, and I know 155HP, doesn't achieve burnouts to 55mph in a straight-line, because 300hp doesn't even do that.

Okay.

1. How sharp a corner is an infinity going to take at 80?
2. Do you think it will spin the tires at 120, in a curve?
3. How about 160?
The point is, there is a limit, and 270-290hp, doesn't smoke tires in gears over 2nd. (given normal gears) Let alone 4th.

1. Depends on the situation. It could range from s-curves to something resembling the carousel at the 'Ring.
2$3. No, because the turn probably won't be sharp enough to unsettle the rears, in addition to the fact that the car will be going faster.

The Cizeta doesn't have poor brakes. It has a combination of these things:
1. Loads of speed.
2. Average handling.
3. Average stopping ability.
All of these combined make the car going far faster than most cars, entering, and it needs to slow-down to sport-family-tourer-ish speeds to go around the corner, meaning it needs to slow down far more than, say, the Ford GT, SLR, Zonda, SRT-10, etc.

But at the same time, cars like the fully BHP and gear tuned Chevrolet Corvette C1 and '62 Nissan Skyline seem to stop on a dime from any speed, whereas cars of similar weight and top speed such as the Shelby Cobra 427 that have far wider tires don't want to stop at all.

I know bumps have an effect, maybe not as much as Wolfe would like, maybe not as much as real, I don't know, I've never gotten air at any speed over 85mph, so I can't say. I can say that a moving van in unaffected by ramping 6-10 inches at 85, but I can't say what a Zonda would do with 18in of air at 150mph, because I've never driven the car, let alone gotten air at 150.

Okay, true enough.

Have you guys driven a Miata in GT4, on N2's? Extremely oversteery car, I was screwing around with it this morning, and it can power-induce a slide in 3rd gear, at 60mph.

So why can't the same be applied to the Infiniti G35?

Anyway, you can't just say "lack of oversteer in general", because I can name cars all day that have plenty of oversteer, whether it's from power or chassis, they're there.

I realise that it is there, but only under extreme provocation can you get it out in most circumstances.

Out of those, are any made for the PS(1,2) system? I've only heard of Sports car GT, and I don't remember where, but for right now, I think I've about had it with trying new car games, because most simply suck at simulation.

Sports Car GT was a PS1 game, but it was garbage compared to it's PC brother.

Show me a car try to drive through a sandtrap, for hundreds of yards, without at least slowing to a near halt, and I'll believe it.

The blue stuff is the gravel trap.

I really hate the way they claim "real driving physics", showing a video of two cars, one real and one fake, wherein it is quite clear that the real car is getting half it's oversteer from chassis, and steering input, and the game car is all from spinning the rear tires.

And I hate the way that both games claim that.

Is GT4 perfect? Not by a long shot.
But it's far better than EPR.

We will have to agree to disagree then.

 

[rsmithdrift]

Woah......... Ok, this is getting out of hand, we get it already........

 

[Deathclown66]

I know what a burnout is. I'm trying to determine whether you mean in a turn they spin or going straight they spin.

We've already determind that straight-line grip is to high in EPR.

The rear tires on the Shadow locked up and stayed locked (rubber patch-like) until the car stopped. The Neon skidded under lock-up for about 1.5-2 seconds before stopping being locked up, with tire patches and all.

The Shadow doesn't have rear-abs.
The Neon? either faulty abs, or crappy abs, it is a Neon, ya know.

[/SIZE][/FONT]
Untrue. Braking ability is based purely on modulation and tire footprint, not brake quality. A good discussion based on that.

No. Without brakes, how important is the footprint?
And what about fade? And the ABS system, or lack thereof? ABS can't stop you as fast as perfect braking without it. A good ABS system will stop you faster than a poor one. A well-ventilated brake system will not see fade on a 150-0 stop, whereas a system prone to fade will, and will consequently take longer to stop. And there's also air resistance.
There's a hell of a lot involved in getting a car to stop fast, especially from high speeds.

A common misconception: Snap-oversteer is due to overcorrection, but when the rears lose grip it is lift throttle. A better explanation Part 1 and Part 2.

Lift throttle is just that: when the throttle is lifted.
You don't spin the tires while cornering if you're off the throttle, do you?
If snap-oversteer is due to overcorrection, than no car can fully be guilty of being prone to it, as so many reviewers claim, it is, in fact their fault then, and not the cars.

1. Depends on the situation. It could range from s-curves to something resembling the carousel at the 'Ring.
2$3. No, because the turn probably won't be sharp enough to unsettle the rears, in addition to the fact that the car will be going faster.

The point is that as you just said, "the car will be going faster". There is a point, when the car is going to fast to spin the tires, despite cornering.
That point is before 80 in 4th with 270hp.

But at the same time, cars like the fully BHP and gear tuned Chevrolet Corvette C1 and '62 Nissan Skyline seem to stop on a dime from any speed, whereas cars of similar weight and top speed such as the Shelby Cobra 427 that have far wider tires don't want to stop at all.

As I said, the variables are plentiful, but since the games do not include brake-fade, it simply means that either in testing, or theory, those older cars you mentioned were more capable in one single quick stop.

So why can't the same be applied to the Infiniti G35?

because the Miata, 1. isn't doing a burnout, simply slipping the tires enough to make the rear slide. 2. Is no where near 80mph. C. The Skyline is prone to understeer instead of over, like the Miata. D. It has more weight, and bigger tires. D. consider it to take 2X the power to spin tires at 80, instead of 60, with the same weight. And then another 1-2X power to light 'em up like christmas trees.
So we're talking 3-4X the power, at 1080kg's, and what we have is 1.9X the power, and 1.5X the weight.

I realise that it is there, but only under extreme provocation can you get it out in most circumstances.

Depends on driving style, or ability. It's actually hard for me to slide like that in GT4, because I automatically correct it, out of nature/habit. I found myself pulling out of slides I didn't want to countless times trying to drift the Miata.

Sports Car GT was a PS1 game, but it was garbage compared to it's PC brother.

Good to know I didn't miss a good game on my system.

The blue stuff is the gravel trap.

And he slows to a near halt, like I said. let alone it's an F1, with slick tires, and a rock-hard suspension, going faster than 80, (at the start, anyway) and NOT a Honda NSX.

And I hate the way that both games claim that.

I don't, as much, with GT4, because it does a much better job.
EPR seems to be saying, "look how much better this is than that other game"

We will have to agree to disagree then.

[/QUOTE]If you think EPR's near as good, yes. Yes we will.

 

[Tornado]

The Shadow doesn't have rear-abs.
The Neon? either faulty abs, or crappy abs, it is a Neon, ya know.

It is also an ACR performance package, so I doubt it.

No. Without brakes, how important is the footprint?
And what about fade? And the ABS system, or lack thereof? ABS can't stop you as fast as perfect braking without it. A good ABS system will stop you faster than a poor one.

I know. But niether game models brake fade (and I know you said that). And as such, the physical brakes (not the implemntation or lack of ABS in either game) do not affect actual stopping times, but the tires do. Which is flawed in both games, for different reason. But even if GT4 had a proper ABS system, wider tires should make the level at which they come on higher because there is more grip to prevent locking the tires.

Lift throttle is just that: when the throttle is lifted.
You don't spin the tires while cornering if you're off the throttle, do you?

Wait, huh? Can you describe what you were talking about agian?

If snap-oversteer is due to overcorrection, than no car can fully be guilty of being prone to it, as so many reviewers claim, it is, in fact their fault then, and not the cars.

True, but in GT4 the slightest of correction can throw the car around in a rediculous, violent spin, which is a far cry from, say, Car and Driver nearly wrecking a Ferrari 348 because they tried to push it past it's limits.

As I said, the variables are plentiful, but since the games do not include brake-fade, it simply means that either in testing, or theory, those older cars you mentioned were more capable in one single quick stop.

But that alone goes against the very reason brakes work.

because the Miata, 1. isn't doing a burnout, simply slipping the tires enough to make the rear slide. 2. Is no where near 80mph. C. The Skyline is prone to understeer instead of over, like the Miata. D. It has more weight, and bigger tires. D. consider it to take 2X the power to spin tires at 80, instead of 60, with the same weight. And then another 1-2X power to light 'em up like christmas trees.
So we're talking 3-4X the power, at 1080kg's, and what we have is 1.9X the power, and 1.5X the weight.

So, you mean its burning out going into the turn?

And he slows to a near halt, like I said. let alone it's an F1, with slick tires, and a rock-hard suspension, going faster than 80, (at the start, anyway) and NOT a Honda NSX.

No, he doesn't. He hardly slows down at all in the gravel and instead skips across it right into the grass. And in practice (and I've seen it at Watkins Glen with Grand Am cars) it would probably be the same. It does slow you down; but if you lock the brakes the car skips like a stone and limits its helpfulness.

 

[Deathclown66]

It is also an ACR performance package, so I doubt it.

So it is either a '95, '96, or maybe a '97. So it's between 10-12 years old. and as much as we all like to think of ACR as great, the brakes were the same as the R/T's. Very un-impressive cars. Average sport-compact. (emphasis on sport)

I know. But niether game models brake fade (and I know you said that). And as such, the physical brakes (not the implemntation or lack of ABS in either game) do not affect actual stopping times, but the tires do. Which is flawed in both games, for different reason. But even if GT4 had a proper ABS system, wider tires should make the level at which they come on higher because there is more grip to prevent locking the tires.

It's not that simple. You can't slap (excuse the example) Neon brakes on a Viper, and expect the same stopping distance.(as a normal Viper) The brakes aren't powerful enough.

Wait, huh? Can you describe what you were talking about agian?

Snap-oversteer.
I said it's when a car suddenly breaks rear traction, as a result of wheelspin, causing a violent snap, in the direction of oversteer.
You said, "No, Snap-oversteer is when the driver overcorrects oversteer, causing the car to snap-back-from-oversteer to much."
Which sounds like, "snap-overcorrection", to me.
Then you said, What I was talking about, (a car snapping from wheelspin, snapping in an oversteer manner), was actually "lift throttle".
Then I said, "you can't spin-out in a snap like motion as a result of wheelspin, if your throttle is lifted".

True, but in GT4 the slightest of correction can throw the car around in a rediculous, violent spin, which is a far cry from, say, Car and Driver nearly wrecking a Ferrari 348 because they tried to push it past it's limits. I guess that's the over-sensitive steering you mentioned. Again, I very rarely, and with very few cars, experience this.

But that alone goes against the very reason brakes work.

No. I made no statement as to how brakes work, in your quoted sentence, so no.
Let me say this: You can't just slap huge tires on any 'ol car, and expect a 60-0 distance of 80ft. Ain't gonna happen.

So, you mean its burning out going into the turn?

During the turn. Whenever I'm on the gas, and turning the steering wheel. (analog stick)

No, he doesn't. He hardly slows down at all in the gravel and instead skips across it right into the grass. And in practice (and I've seen it at Watkins Glen with Grand Am cars) it would probably be the same. It does slow you down; but if you lock the brakes the car skips like a stone and limits its helpfulness.

[/QUOTE] He certainly slows, and quite a bit. Maybe not as much as you like.
BUT: It's an F1 car, I never said they stop on a dime in sandtraps 100% of the time. 2. Slicks. 3. He's on the brakes, something I clearly wasn't, since I made it clear I rounded the corner, full-throttle, at 80+ mph, all in the sand.

So what I said still stands true: The Sand/Grass physics in EPR are Sega-Genesis like. Andretti Racing comes to mind.
Maybe PD didn't get them perfect, but hell they actually did something with it.
Another reason EPR sucks.
It's just like I said: They half-assed it.
GT4 is at least 3/4 assed.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm sorry to say that I don't have easy access to a G35 and a space where I can safely attempt an 80mph drift, but a quick boot-up of Live for Speed revealed (predictably) that the 140hp, 2500lbs. XR-GT was more than willing to go into a slide at 80mph with even a moderate application of steering. In turn, the more-powerful (360hp) but heavier (3000lbs) FZ50 was also willing to do the same, and if it wasn't for the limited-slip differential and rear-mounted engine, it may have also been willing to spin its inside tire and bounce off of the rev-limiter as well. As it was, it still gained some RPM when the slide was initiated.

Deathclown, a 270hp G35 could very easily be made to go into a slide at 80mph, and given the right kind of corner and an open differential (as it probably has), could probably light up the inside tire as well.

 

[Tornado]

It's not that simple. You can't slap (excuse the example) Neon brakes on a Viper, and expect the same stopping distance.(as a normal Viper) The brakes aren't powerful enough.

“You can take this one to the bank. Regardless of your huge rotor diameter, brake pedal ratio, magic brake pad material, or number of pistons in your calipers, your maximum deceleration is limited every time by the tire to road interface. That is the point of this whole article. Your brakes do not stop your car. Your tires do stop the car. So while changes to different parts of the brake system may affect certain characteristics or traits of the system behavior, using stickier tires is ultimately the only sure-fire method of decreasing stopping distances.”
To put it simply, your brakes (if working correctly) do not dictate how long it will take a car to stop, your tyres do.

Snap-oversteer.
I said it's when a car suddenly breaks rear traction, as a result of wheelspin, causing a violent snap, in the direction of oversteer.
You said, "No, Snap-oversteer is when the driver overcorrects oversteer, causing the car to snap-back-from-oversteer to much."
Which sounds like, "snap-overcorrection", to me.
Then you said, What I was talking about, (a car snapping from wheelspin, snapping in an oversteer manner), was actually "lift throttle".
Then I said, "you can't spin-out in a snap like motion as a result of wheelspin, if your throttle is lifted".

Okay, that would also count as snap oversteer.

No. I made no statement as to how brakes work, in your quoted sentence, so no.

You said "As I said, the variables are plentiful, but since the games do not include brake-fade, it simply means that either in testing, or theory, those older cars you mentioned were more capable in one single quick stop."
Which implies that a '54 Chevrolet Corvette and '62 Skyline that both are straddled to tires that are probably less than 3.5 inches in the front can outstop a Mercedes SL65 that probably has 9 inches of front tire. Which; ABS or not, huge brake diameter or not, weight difference or not, in theory or in practice, disc brake or drum; is just plain wrong.

Let me say this: You can't just slap huge tires on any 'ol car, and expect a 60-0 distance of 80ft. Ain't gonna happen.

No. But the tires are the limit by which the brakes are measured. If you have brakes past the limit on tires, you have more brakes than are necessery.

 

[Deathclown66]

You said "As I said, the variables are plentiful, but since the games do not include brake-fade, it simply means that either in testing, or theory, those older cars you mentioned were more capable in one single quick stop."
Which implies that a '54 Chevrolet Corvette and '62 Skyline that both are straddled to tires that are probably less than 3.5 inches in the front can outstop a Mercedes SL65 that probably has 9 inches of front tire. Which; ABS or not, huge brake diameter or not, weight difference or not, in theory or in practice, disc brake or drum; is just plain wrong.

3.5 inches? that's 88mm, you do realize that, right?
And I'm glad to see what Scaff said.
Tires do stop your car. if the brakes stop the tires If your brakes can only slow your tires from 60 in 200ft, and you have 335mm tires, how long will it take to slow from 60?

No. But the tires are the limit by which the brakes are measured. If you have brakes past the limit on tires, you have more brakes than are necessery.

Likewise with tires. See above.
And then there's weight dist., the ABS system, and weight transfer, along with f/r track, Cd, etc.

If the ABS system, as you say your Neon did, locks up, leaving skid marks, can that not be improved?

I'm sorry to say that I don't have easy access to a G35 and a space where I can safely attempt an 80mph drift, but a quick boot-up of Live for Speed revealed (predictably) that the 140hp, 2500lbs. XR-GT was more than willing to go into a slide at 80mph with even a moderate application of steering. In turn, the more-powerful (360hp) but heavier (3000lbs) FZ50 was also willing to do the same, and if it wasn't for the limited-slip differential and rear-mounted engine, it may have also been willing to spin its inside tire and bounce off of the rev-limiter as well. As it was, it still gained some RPM when the slide was initiated.

I don't even know what cars you're talking about. And Yes, 350Z's, Infinity G35's, and Skyline's have limited slip. How the hell do you think traction control works?

But I'm very grateful you you took a car I never heard of, in a game I've never played, and made the tires spin. Fantastic.
Well, I was playing NFS Most Wanted, and.....
you could've at least used a slightly comparable car, instead of one that weighs 1000lbs less, with likely skinnier tires, and another with weighs 500lbs less, and has 80-90 more hp.

Yet you take this as a deinitive test? And you did, question my credibility, did you not?