The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

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What Car? has published a survey saying that 66% of British drivers are planning on going green for their next vehicle purchase not to save the planet but rather their valuable pounds and pences. I have to imagine if a similar survey was done in the US the results would be relatively close when you take into account our larger population (~60 million v. 300 million). This supports what I have said since post #1, people want these cars not because they are concerned about the environment but rather they are concerned about their pocketbooks. Hopefully green means a fuel efficient petrol vehicle and NOT a hybrid.

What Car? via AutoBlog Green
66% of U.K. car buyers will go green in order to save money

A What Car? survey reveals today that two-thirds of prospective new car purchasers will be looking to buy a greener vehicle in the next 12 months.

However, 47% of purchasers say they will be buying a greener car for financial reasons, while only 19% say environmental issues are the main factors for their next car.

Steve Fowler, What Car? group editor, said: "The Government will be pleased with this news coming so soon after Alistair Darling's Budget. However, with the cost of living increasing and with wages failing to keep up, car buyers are saying financial pressures are of more concern than helping the environment."

Last month, Chancellor Alistair Darling announced a raft of measures in his first Budget designed to encourage motorists to buy more environmentally friendly cars. These measures included new Vehicle Excise Duty (road tax) bands that will come into force in 2009, which will make buyers of more polluting cars pay more in road tax.

Plus, in 2010, the Government will introduce a so-called 'Showroom Tax' where buyers of the most polluting cars will pay a new, higher rate of tax in the first year ownership, while new cars with carbon dioxide emissions of less than 130g/km will not pay any road tax in the first year.

"Even if you aren't planning to buy a new car soon, motorists can still do their bit for their environment by following the What Car? guide to 'Greener Driving'," said Fowler.

1. Driving at 60mph uses up to 9% less fuel than at 70mph and, on more advanced vehicles, motorists can take advantage of cruise control – a steady speed is also more fuel efficient.
2. Keep weight down – ensure your car is as free of clutter as possible, and remove roof and bicycle racks when not in use.
3. Plan your journey and use a satellite-navigation system or on-line routing site before you set off. Getting lost or stuck in traffic pumps additional CO2 into the atmosphere.
4. Travel outside of rush hour to avoid congestion.
5. Try not to use all of your car gadgets at once – they all use energy and contribute to your vehicle's CO2 output.
6. Be a better driver and read the road ahead – hang back from the traffic in front so you don't have to brake and accelerate every time it slows down and speeds up.
7. Turn engines off when stuck in traffic or when waiting for passengers to arrive.
8. Consider offsetting your emissions – look at websites such as www.climatecare.org that can help calculate your CO2 output.
9. Look at car sharing, set up a system at your place of work or start a car-sharing school-run.

What Car? will be announcing the winners of their first Green Awards at the British International Motor Show on the 22rd July 2008 at ExCeL London.

What Car? will also be showcasing the latest environmental cars and technology in the Greener Driving Pavilion, where consumers can get hands-on with some of the latest green innovations available now and see what's coming in the future.
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To see if my hybrid ≠ cost savings methods worked in Britain I thought I would run the numbers. The only problem is my knowledge of what you call cars in the UK is quite limited. I picked the Civic but for some reason your hybrid model is a four door while the regular one is a five door. The numbers might be a bit off though.

According to www.petrolprices.com the average price for regular unleaded is ₤1.09/L (~₤4.13/ Gal)* and accord to http://www.directline.com/about_us/news_300605.htm the average UK driver does about 10,000 miles per year. I'll use those numbers unless someone wants to redirect me, I don't live there so I don't really know.

A Honda Civic 5-Door with a 1.4L petrol engine and has a 46.3mpg combined average according to the www.honda.co.uk. The Civic with a 1.8L (a far more attractive engine) has a combined average of 44.1mpg.

The Honda Civic 4-Door Hybrid model with a 1.4L (maybe it's a 1.3?) engine gets a combine average of 61.4mpg.

The hybrid has a fuel tank capacity of 50L (~13.2 gallons) which means it would cost ₤54.52 to fill up the tank and it could travel 810.48 miles before it was empty (that seems high). The regular 5-door has the same 50L tank which means it would cost the same ₤54.52 to fill it up, however it could only go 611.16 miles in the 1.4L and 582.12 in the 1.8L .

Assuming 10,000 miles per year you would have to fill up the 1.4L ~16 times at a cost of ₤872.32. The 1.8L need to be filled up ~17 times at a cost of ₤926.84. The hybrid needs only to be filled up ~12 times at a cost of ₤672.69 for the year. A difference of ₤254.15 between the hybrid and the 1.8L and difference of ₤199.63 for the 1.4 to hybrid.

Prices for the models are as followed: 1.4L ₤14,490, 1.8L ₤15,140, hybrid ₤19,605.

With this you are looking at about 27 to equal the difference in fuel savings from the 1.4L to the Hybrid and 17 year from the 1.8L to the Hybrid. Also you are looking at 12 years from the saving the 1.4L would give you over the 1.8L...I really hope my math is correct on all of this.

So yes, lets hope the British can understand this when 66% of them flock to buy a new vehicle. And if you are looking at a new Civic please just get the 1.8L since from what I can tell the 1.4L can barely get out of it's own way.

*Why in gods name do the Brits sell fuel by the litre but measure their fuel economy in mpg?
 
We don't care if it's diesel, petrol or hybrid.

All we care about is MPG and CO2 emissions because those are effectively what we are getting taxed on. CO2 emissions however are the biggest point at the moment because people see the big tax costs as more of a striking issue than the longer term cost of MPG.

Joey D
*Why in gods name do the Brits sell fuel by the litre but measure their fuel economy in mpg?
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Because we're stuck inbetween imperial and metric. It's a wonderful system.
 
Looks like driving a hybrid will increase you risk of getting cancer. So not only will the mow down blind people and fool you into think you are saving money, but they will now give you cancer! Wow is there anything these cars can't do? :lol:

I kid of course, these studies come out all the time saying something gives you cancer and that you will die. It also doesn't help that this article came from the NYT.

NY Times
Fear, but Few Facts, on Hybrid Risk

ALMOST without exception, scientists and policy makers agree that hybrid vehicles are good for the planet. To a small but insistent group of skeptics, however, there is another, more immediate question: Are hybrids healthy for drivers?

There is a legitimate scientific reason for raising the issue. The flow of electrical current to the motor that moves a hybrid vehicle at low speeds (and assists the gasoline engine on the highway) produces magnetic fields, which some studies have associated with serious health matters, including a possible risk of leukemia among children.

With the batteries and power cables in hybrids often placed close to the driver and passengers, some exposure to electromagnetic fields is unavoidable. Moreover, the exposure will be prolonged — unlike, say, using a hair dryer or electric shaver — for drivers who spend hours each day at the wheel.

Some hybrid owners have actually tested their cars for electromagnetic fields using hand-held meters, and a few say they are alarmed by the results.

Their concern is not without merit; agencies including the National Institutes of Health and the National Cancer Institute acknowledge the potential hazards of long-term exposure to a strong electromagnetic field, or E.M.F., and have done studies on the association of cancer risks with living near high-voltage utility lines.

While Americans live with E.M.F.’s all around — produced by everything from cellphones to electric blankets — there is no broad agreement over what level of exposure constitutes a health hazard, and there is no federal standard that sets allowable exposure levels. Government safety tests do not measure the strength of the fields in vehicles — though Honda and Toyota, the dominant hybrid makers, say their internal checks assure that their cars pose no added risk to occupants.

Researchers with expertise in hybrid-car issues say that while there may not be cause for alarm, neither should the potential health effects be ignored.

“It would be a mistake to jump to conclusions about hybrid E.M.F. dangers, as well as a mistake to outright dismiss the concern,” said Jim Kliesch, a senior engineer for the clean vehicles program at the Union of Concerned Scientists. “Additional research would improve our understanding of the issue.”

Charges that automobiles expose occupants to strong electromagnetic fields were made even before hybrids became popular. In 2002, a Swedish magazine claimed its tests found that three gasoline-powered Volvo models produced high E.M.F. levels. Volvo countered that the magazine had compared the measurements with stringent standards advanced by a Swedish labor organization, not the more widely accepted criteria established by the International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection, a group of independent scientific experts based near Munich.

Much of the discussion over high E.M.F. levels has sprung from hybrid drivers making their own readings. Field-strength detectors are widely available; a common model, the TriField meter, costs about $145 online. But experts and automakers contend that it is not simple for a hybrid owner to make reliable, meaningful E.M.F. measurements.

The concern over high E.M.F. levels in hybrids has come not just from worrisome instrument readings, but also from drivers who say that their hybrids make them ill.

Neysa Linzer, 58, of Bulls Head in Staten Island, bought a new Honda Civic Hybrid in 2007 for the 200 miles a week she drove to visit grocery stores in her merchandising job for a supermarket chain. She said that the car reduced her gasoline use, but there were problems — her blood pressure rose and she fell asleep at the wheel three times, narrowly averting accidents.

“I never had a sleepiness problem before,” Ms. Linzer said, adding that it was her own conclusion, not a doctor’s, that the car was causing the symptoms.

Ms. Linzer asked Honda to provide her with shielding material for protection from the low-frequency fields, but the company declined her request last August, saying that its hybrid cars are “thoroughly evaluated” for E.M.F.’s before going into production. Ms. Linzer’s response was to have the car tested by a person she called her wellness consultant, using a TriField meter.

The TriField meter is made by AlphaLab in Salt Lake City. The company’s president, Bill Lee, defends its use for automotive testing even though the meter is set up to test alternating current fields, whereas the power moving to and from a hybrid vehicle’s battery is direct current. “Generally, an A.C. meter is accurate in detecting large electromagnetic fields or microwaves,” he said.

Testing with a TriField meter led Brian Collins of Encinitas, Calif., to sell his 2001 Honda Insight just six months after he bought it — at a loss of $7,000. He said the driver was receiving “dangerously high” E.M.F. levels of up to 135 milligauss at the hip and up to 100 milligauss at the upper torso. These figures contrasted sharply with results from his Volkswagen van, which measured one to two milligauss.

Mr. Collins said he tried to interest Honda in the problem in 2001, but was assured that his car was safe. He purchased shielding made of a nickel-iron alloy, but because of high installation costs decided to sell the car instead.

A spokesman for Honda, Chris Martin, points to the lack of a federally mandated standard for E.M.F.’s in cars. Despite this, he said, Honda takes the matter seriously. “All our tests had results that were well below the commission’s standard,” Mr. Martin said, referring to the European guidelines. And he cautions about the use of hand-held test equipment. “People have a valid concern, but they’re measuring radiation using the wrong devices,” he said.

Kent Shadwick, controller of purchasing services for the York Catholic District School Board in York, Ontario, evaluated the Toyota Prius for fleet use. Mr. Shadwick said it was tested at various speeds, and under hard braking and rapid acceleration, using a professional-quality gauss meter.

“The results that we saw were quite concerning,” he said. “We saw high levels in the vehicle for both the driver and left rear passenger, which has prompted us to explore shielding options and to consider advocating testing of different makes and models of hybrid vehicles.”

In a statement, Toyota said: “The measured electromagnetic fields inside and outside of Toyota hybrid vehicles in the 50 to 60 hertz range are at the same low levels as conventional gasoline vehicles. Therefore there are no additional health risks to drivers, passengers or bystanders.”

The statement adds that the measured E.M.F. in a Prius is 1/300th of the European guideline.

The tests conducted by hybrid owners rarely approach the level of thoroughness of those run by automakers.

Donald B. Karner, president of Electric Transportation Applications in Phoenix, who tested E.M.F. levels in battery-electric cars for the Energy Department in the 1990s, said it was hard to evaluate readings without knowing how the testing was done. He also said it was a problem to determine a danger level for low-frequency radiation, in part because dosage is determined not only by proximity to the source, but by duration of exposure. “We’re exposed to radio waves from the time we’re born, but there’s a general belief that there’s so little energy in them that they’re not dangerous,” he said.

Mr. Karner has developed a procedure for testing hybrids, but he said that the cost — about $5,000 a vehicle — had prevented its use.

Lawrence Gust of Ventura, Calif., a consultant with a specialty in E.M.F.’s and electrical sensitivity, was one of the electrical engineers who tested Mr. Collins’s Insight in 2001. He agreed that the readings were high but did not want to speculate on whether they were harmful. “There are big blocks of high-amp power being moved around in a hybrid, the equivalent of horsepower,” he said. “I get a lot of clients who ask if they should buy hybrid electric cars, and I say the jury is still out.”
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In case you missed this part of the article or don't feel like reading it I want to give you the main highlight of it:

Article
Neysa Linzer, 58, of Bulls Head in Staten Island, bought a new Honda Civic Hybrid in 2007 for the 200 miles a week she drove to visit grocery stores in her merchandising job for a supermarket chain. She said that the car reduced her gasoline use, but there were problems — her blood pressure rose and she fell asleep at the wheel three times, narrowly averting accidents.

“I never had a sleepiness problem before,” Ms. Linzer said, adding that it was her own conclusion, not a doctor’s, that the car was causing the symptoms.
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This is solid proof that hybrids are so boring that will lull you to sleep while driving them :lol:.
 
Cause Cancer? That reeks of "LOL INTARWEBZ"

I mean, EVERYTHING causes cancer nowadays.

But they will lull you to sleep...This is why cars need to be more INVOLVING.
 
Meh, my mate grew up next door to a power pylon, as much as it freaks me out in the rain (really nasty buzzing noise) I don't think he pr his family have ever had an issue.
 
Red dye in M&Ms, anyone? You'd have to consume a ridiculous amount, by which time you'd already have died from coronary problems.

We still don't understand this electrical issue, and a few studies aren't gonna change that.
 
ExigeEvan
All we care about is MPG and CO2 emissions because those are effectively what we are getting taxed on. CO2 emissions however are the biggest point at the moment because people see the big tax costs as more of a striking issue than the longer term cost of MPG.
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The two are the same thing. CO2 emissions are a reverse calculation based on your average fuel economy.

Also:

Kid run over by Prius - "didn't hear it coming".
 
Maybe they are on to something with the car being to quite...oh wait, shouldn't people look before going out into the road?
 
Yes, people should look before going out into the road, but the danger is that hybrids have taken away one of the senses we use to see if the street is safe to cross. You aren't as likely to register that there is a car there or that it is a threat if you simply see it but don't hear it or anything.

Maybe I should point out that the case with many modern cars is that the tires end up making more noise than the engine though. So unless the car is running super silent tires, you should be able to see that it is there if it is moving at any somewhat dangerous speed.
 
Famine
The two are the same thing. CO2 emissions are a reverse calculation based on your average fuel economy.
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So C02 emissions are nothing to do with how complete the combustion is?

I mean, I understand that in complete combustion you'd get complete correlation between fuel used and CO2 emissions but it's not perfect, is it?
 
Are hybrids to expensive? Honda says the Brits think so.

Autoblog Green
Honda: U.K. drivers think hybrids are too expensive

In the United States, sales of hybrid cars greatly outpaces the sales of diesel cars; super-size trucks don't count. The leader of the hybrid race globally and in the States is undoubtedly Toyota, but other manufacturers, including Honda, are doing their best to catch up. Despite the fact that the original Honda Insight helped usher in the hybrid age, the automaker has taken a major back seat to its main rival from Japan in recent years. To help combat this issue, Honda is set to revive the Insight nameplate with a Prius-fighting five door hatchback of its own, and it will undercut its competitor by thousands of dollars.

So, what about Europe? Across the pond, hybrid cars and trucks are not nearly as popular as they are in the U.S. There, diesel fuel is priced more attractively than gasoline, and sales of oil-burners are therefore very strong. A recent survey conducted by Honda in the U.K. indicates that 40-percent of those who would not buy a hybrid are put off by their high price. Since the Insight will be the cheapest hybrid available in Europe, Honda hopes to buck the slow-selling trend. We'll see how it works out sometime next year.
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RecklesAbandon2
because they drive on the left side of the road, mate
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:lol: that great, but really it would make a little more sense to measure everything either by Imperial or Metric but not both. I will travel 8 miles at 40KMPH. that's a little difficult to map out in your head easily.

in all likelihood this is a repost but...

Who saw the Clarkston Theory of Hybrid Cars?

they mine the battery minerals in china spewing corruption into the air, then they ship it over to mexico or something on those huge shipping barges, then they ship it over to europe, which is basicly going to wrong way around the world.
 
Joey D
Are hybrids to expensive?
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I'm inclined to say so, as it has been proven that a well-tuned diesel (2008 Jetta TDI) can get fuel figures that top that of the "standard" Prius, and for that matter, well-tuned four cylinder cars (2008 Fit, etc) can perform just behind as well.

Problem is, I'm sold on the PHV cars, but not the "regular" hybrids.

Weird.
 
BayConRong
they mine the battery minerals in china spewing corruption into the air, then they ship it over to mexico or something on those huge shipping barges, then they ship it over to europe, which is basicly going to wrong way around the world.
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No. The nickel is mined in Canada and processed in China.
 
"diesel fuel is priced more attractively than gasoline"

Not in the UK it isn't. It's an average of 10p/litre more expensive, which means even for a car the size of mine, with a 40 litre tank, it'd cost £4 more to fill up. Which doesn't sound a lot but it all adds up. Funnily enough for me a small diesel would actually make financial sense in the longer term (as long as I bought it second-hand), as the additional mileage I'd get over even the impressive figures I get at the moment would outweigh the extra cost of filling up.

And yes, hybrids are too expensive in Europe.
 
That's how it is most of the time, I would be more then willing to buy a diesel over a hybrid barring we had an actually selection of diesels to choose from. Honestly I would love a Cooper D.
 
Joey D
Are hybrids too expensive? Honda says the Brits think so.
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Phew.

YSSMAN
I'm inclined to say so, as it has been proven that a well-tuned diesel (2008 Jetta TDI) can get fuel figures that top that of the "standard" Prius, and for that matter, well-tuned four cylinder cars (2008 Fit, etc) can perform just behind as well.

Problem is, I'm sold on the PHV cars, but not the "regular" hybrids.

Weird.
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Using the "testing" cycles I'm sure they can, but in the city a Hybrid should still beat a diesel for efficiency. At cruising speeds though a Diesel will be far, far superior. And that's where the decision lies.

Joey D
No. The nickel is mined in Canada and processed in China.
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I'd have to double check with my dad but I believe it the process is done in 2 steps. The Nickel is extracted from it's ore in Clydach, Wales and then the nickel powder is shipped to China where it is processed into Nickel Foam sheets. Up untill 18-24 months ago the whole thing was done in Clydach, Wales but the Japanese finally signed off on the Chinese produced foam.
 
:lol: Except we don't mine it here, it's mined from Canada (Sudbury mostly, but there's operations all over the place), and it (I think) gets processed over here.

But it is all thanks to Welsh coal actually, cause that's what led to the big old (and mostly extinct) chemical and smelting industry in South Wales.
 
Made Henry feel pretty good too, before the Kipper wreck...

Heh, You learn something new every day.
 
Joey D
Are hybrids to expensive? Honda says the Brits think so.
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Indeed we do. Paying £18,000 for a 1.5 litre Toyota has always seemed a little mad, to be honest. Having said that, some of those ultra-eco diesels are rather overpriced too. We drove a Bluemotion Polo, and were shocked to discover that with metallic paint and a handful of desirable bits, we were looking at a £14,000 car. In other words, that's £1000 more than an SE with fundamentally the same engine. Thanks, but I'm not that excited about getting free tax.
 
ExigeEvan
Using the "testing" cycles I'm sure they can, but in the city a Hybrid should still beat a diesel for efficiency. At cruising speeds though a Diesel will be far, far superior. And that's where the decision lies.
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A hybrid is only better in a city situation as you are not wasting any fuel sitting in traffic.

But for those of us who enjoy driving, I believe that the answer was shown at the Petit Le Mans Green Challenge. Diesels were in 1-2-3 (and giving a hell of a show to boot). And from a first-person perspective the Zytek Hybrids were far from impressive.

Also, the support race was the Jetta TDI Cup final race. Those race tuned TDIs are pulling 22mpg, and as much as 25mpg under race conditions.

I recently saw a story where a couple went on a cross country trip in their Jetta TDI and record 58+mpg.

In the US, right now, the Jetta TDI is your bet economy car unless you never intend to leave crowded city streets.
 
ROAD_DOGG33J
So they should make a hybrid diesel?
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If it is done well I think that could be an incredible setup.

I would love to see how it would stand up in an endurance race and even with me behind the wheel of it for 50,000 miles.
 

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