The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Joey D
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ROAD_DOGG33J
So they should make a hybrid diesel?
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Its already in the works over in Europe, I believe Mercedes is attempting to pair it up with the GM Two-Mode system, and VW has something of their own under development. The only problem is that diesel doesn't exactly agree with the on/off nature of the way in which the gasoline engines work in hybrid models...
 
Jondot
Indeed we do. Paying £18,000 for a 1.5 litre Toyota has always seemed a little mad, to be honest. Having said that, some of those ultra-eco diesels are rather overpriced too. We drove a Bluemotion Polo, and were shocked to discover that with metallic paint and a handful of desirable bits, we were looking at a £14,000 car. In other words, that's £1000 more than an SE with fundamentally the same engine. Thanks, but I'm not that excited about getting free tax.
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But you may also gain in re-sale values. Low and Zero tax cars arein huge demand right now and probably for the forseeable future. Though, it would take you nearly 30 years to recoup the cost if it's compared to a £35 p.a. car :lol:
 
The problem is heat... keeping enough of it in the engine to keep emissions low... but I think BMW is already planning a "mild" hybrid Mini Diesel... with a start-stop function in traffic.
 
Peugeot showed off a diesel hybird concept at Paris this past week.

Autoblog Green
Paris 2008: Peugeot Prologue HYmotion4 diesel hybrid
peugeot-prologue--02-450.jpg


Peugeot's Prologue HYmotion4 concept is in many ways the opposite of the same company's RC HYmotion4 concept. The upright crossover style Prologue is a different animal from the sleek four-door coupe. Both vehicles use the same through the road hybrid architecture but flipped front/rear. The Prologue puts the internal combustion engine up front and runs on diesel instead of gasoline with the electric motor going at the back. The diesel puts out 163 hp while the motor is limited to 27 kW. With both the engine and motor running, 221 lb-ft of torque are available to the front wheels while the rears get 148 lb-ft. As with the other HYmotion4 concepts, the vehicle can be propelled by either the engine, motor or both. In rear wheel drive electric only mode, speeds are limited to about 30 mph by the 36 hp output and the use of a nickel metal hydride battery. Nonetheless, the Prologue generates some pretty impressive numbers. The French automaker claims a combined mileage of 52.3 mpg (U.S.) and CO2 emissions of just 109 g/km. One interesting performance enhancement that Peugeot mentions is the interaction between the transmission and motor. The 6-speed manual gearbox features automated shifting. The electronic controls automatically activates the electric motor during shifts to fill the gap in power flow smoothing out the process.
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Gallery

Seem like it could work into a production car in the near future although 52.3mpg isn't as stellar as I would have thought considering the Jetta TDI did 58mpg. I figured at least 70mpg.
 
This annoys me:

The French automaker claims a combined mileage of 52.3 mpg (U.S.) and CO2 emissions of just 109 g/km.
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There's no "AND" about it. It's the same piggin' thing.
 
Famine
There's no "AND" about it. It's the same piggin' thing.
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I expect the average Joe is unaware of that though. I do wonder however (although it's irrelevant with regards to my road tax), my recent fuel consumption has been high 40s mpg, and as high as the 52mpg that Pug is quoted - does this mean my CO2 will be lower than the roughly 140g/km I think the car is quoted, and nearer the figure advertised for that car?
 
Volvo also appears to want to get into the diesel hybrid game.

Autoblog
Volvo vows to bring hybrid diesel by 2012
Diesels and hybrids are currently fighting it out on sales floors across the world, with diesels taking claiming early victory in Europe, while hybrids hold their own in America. Volvo plans to combine the two fuel-saving technologies by 2012 in both the U.S. and across the pond. According to early reports, the system used by the Swedish automaker will be an advanced full-hybrid, with either the electric motors or an oil-burning engine capable of moving the vehicle independently. All-wheel drive will also be part of the package, as the front wheels would be powered by the diesel engine while the rears would be electrically motivated. Shortly thereafter, the automaker would release a plug-in version of its hybrid.

Before any of this takes place, Volvo will take a few hybrid baby-steps in the form of stop/start technology on its smaller models before spreading across the line. In contrast, the diesel hybrids will begin at the top, equipped in larger sedans and SUVs. Considering that Volvo's been able to get up to 76 mpg from its non-hybrid diesel DRIVe models, we will have high expectations for its diesel hybrids.
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homeforsummer
I expect the average Joe is unaware of that though. I do wonder however (although it's irrelevant with regards to my road tax), my recent fuel consumption has been high 40s mpg, and as high as the 52mpg that Pug is quoted - does this mean my CO2 will be lower than the roughly 140g/km I think the car is quoted, and nearer the figure advertised for that car?
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You can calculate "emissions" from economy (or vice versa) really easily.

For Imperial Gallons:
CO2 = 2300/(mpg * 0.35)
mpg = 6509/CO2

For US Gallons:
CO2 = 2300/(mpg * 0.42)
mpg = 5474/CO2

For Metric
CO2 = 2300/(km/l)
km/l = 2300/CO2

(this is good for within a couple of percent - the proper calculation requires very many decimal places, but this is good ballpark)
 
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Where does the 2300 figure come from?
 
It's effectively from a series of factors, to do with the carbon content of octane and carbon dioxide and the specific mass of petrol. I can post all of the steps if required, but it'd get pretty much the same result to within a couple of percent.
 
Famine
You can calculate "emissions" from economy (or vice versa) really easily.

For Imperial Gallons:
CO2 = 2300/(mpg * 0.35)
mpg = 2.83 * (2300/CO2)
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Based on that and my last 48mpg tank, my car puts out 136g/km of CO2. Not bad, and I guess not as far below Ford's claim as I assumed. Unless I was wrong and the Fiesta is supposed to be 165g/km or something, in which case I'm kickin' ass :sly:
 
homeforsummer
Based on that and my last 48mpg tank, my car puts out 136g/km of CO2. Not bad, and I guess not as far below Ford's claim as I assumed. Unless I was wrong and the Fiesta is supposed to be 165g/km or something, in which case I'm kickin' ass :sly:
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Don't forget that'll be 136g/km +/- 5%. So it could be as much as 143g/km... :D
 
Famine
You can calculate "emissions" from economy (or vice versa) really easily.

For Imperial Gallons:
CO2 = 2300/(mpg * 0.35)
mpg = 6509/CO2

For US Gallons:
CO2 = 2300/(mpg * 0.42)
mpg = 5474/CO2

For Metric
CO2 = 2300/(km/l)
km/l = 2300/CO2

(this is good for within a couple of percent - the proper calculation requires very many decimal places, but this is good ballpark)
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Does this equation work the same for both diesel and gasoline? I assume that they are different?


Also, I know that the Audi R10 TDI is using scrubbers to remove much of the emmisions. I assume the equation does not take that into affect as well as that is an additional step added after the chemical reaction.

In the case of the Peugeot, their emissions vs mpg may be equal, but if normal road cars found a way to scrub carbon emmisions then it would be separate, correct?


I may be completely off base, but that is why I am asking.
 
homeforsummer
Based on that and my last 48mpg tank, my car puts out 136g/km of CO2. Not bad, and I guess not as far below Ford's claim as I assumed. Unless I was wrong and the Fiesta is supposed to be 165g/km or something, in which case I'm kickin' ass :sly:
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By those formulas there, looks like I'm getting 195g/mi in my Celica. I have no idea if that is "good" or not, we don't talk about emissions ratings whatsoever here in the US.
 
FoolKiller
Does this equation work the same for both diesel and gasoline? I assume that they are different?
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I believe diesel has a different scale.

The equations have nothing to do with reality, sadly. It's simply how the UK government generates emissions-based tax brackets. If they did it by mpg, people would suddenly notice that we're being taxed three times for the same thing - one at a bracket-based flat rate and two based on actual use. So they do it by "emissions" which is environment-chic and popular, despite being utterly fake.


Sadly, it has the opposite effect to that which is desired. If I'm going to be taxed £400 a year just for the privilege of owning a Mondeo - and I am - then I'm going to drive that bastard as much as I can, to get my money's worth... :D
 
Famine

Sadly, it has the opposite effect to that which is desired. If I'm going to be taxed £400 a year just for the privilege of owning a Mondeo - and I am - then I'm going to drive that bastard as much as I can, to get my money's worth... :D
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Exactly, as a driver of a fully expensed company car the tax regime takes no account of the mileage I drive at all.

I simply get 'bent over' for a huge sum of tax each money (my tax band is very scary - those in the UK who want an idea I have a tax code that starts with a K and has three numbers after it), as such it gives me no incentive at all to drive in an economical manner, so I don't.

Hell I don't pay directly for my car or fuel and will pay exactly the same amount of tax if I shift up at 3k or red-line the bugger in every gear. Guess which one wins.

Scaff
 
Glad my car was built before 2001, having to pay £270 if it was after that is extortionate 🤬. You cant drive anything without an engine you'd find in a food blender in this country without being taxed to the hilt, my cars only a 1.6!
 
ExigeEvan
"Will someone please think of the children?".
HelenLovejoy.jpg
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Not me.

I work in the motor industry, have no incentive to drive 'green' and come from a family of Land / Range Rover owners (currently have three in the family), quite frankly Greenpeace already hate me.

:)

Scaff
 
Friends of the Earth cold-called my doorstep the other day.

I'd swear I heard the entire country hold its breath for a second when I opened the door.
 
Famine
Friends of the Earth cold-called my doorstep the other day.

I'd swear I heard the entire country hold its breath for a second when I opened the door.
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I bet that this is an interesting tale, however it may be relatively bland without pics and/or a video.

My wife won't let me answer the door when political door ringers come by. But that is likely because her father works in state government and she prefers to not get disowned.
 
Having negotiated his way past the two sub-30mpg cars on the driveway, he proceeded to tell me how a certain local industry causes cancer. The rest of the conversation went:

Famine *raises eyebrow*
Gimp "You don't work there do you? I mean, obviously they provide a lot of local people with jobs."
F "No, but I am a molecular biologist."
G "I don't know what that is."
F "Someone who knows how cancer works."
G "Ah. Er. I'll... You have a good evening."
 
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You should have been like "Ah good, my cancer doesn't seem to be working right. Could you come in and fix it for me? The regular repair guy didn't want to touch it." :p
 
Famine
Having negotiated his way past the two sub-30mpg cars on the driveway, he proceeded to tell me how a certain local industry causes cancer. The rest of the conversation went:

*raises eyebrow*
"You don't work there do you? I mean, obviously they provide a lot of local people with jobs."
"No, but I am a molecular biologist."
"I don't know what that is."
"Someone who knows how cancer works."
"Ah. Er. I'll... You have a good evening."
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See you have all the fun, I only get to have arguments with people trying to get me to change energy supplier (an exercise in new and amusing ways to say no and on occasion explain the laws of trespass "no I think you will find I can use reasonable force").

On a related note, keep in mind any car can be sub-30mpg if your willing to work hard enough. When I had the Celica I always got a Yaris as a courtesy car, and used to delight in ensure in went back with under 10mpg on the trip computer.


Scaff
 
Still can't beat the good old Jehovah Witness'.

Ah well, you'd better all recycle or Santa will be gunnin' for ya.
 
Scaff
On a related note, keep in mind any car can be sub-30mpg if your willing to work hard enough. When I had the Celica I always got a Yaris as a courtesy car, and used to delight in ensure in went back with under 10mpg on the trip computer.
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To be fair, I got the ST220 up to 36mpg on a 200 mile run. By "cooperating" with a LWB Mercedes Sprinter :D

I did get it down to 6 also.
 
ExigeEvan
But you may also gain in re-sale values. Low and Zero tax cars arein huge demand right now and probably for the forseeable future. Though, it would take you nearly 30 years to recoup the cost if it's compared to a £35 p.a. car :lol:
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Strangely, according to WhatCar a Bluemotion actually should hold less of its value. That, along the fact that it's actually more expensive in company car tax than the standard model, gave me a chuckle.

Polo 1.4 TDI SE 5dr: £26/£53, 45% value retained @ 3 years/36k miles
Polo 1.4 TDI Bluemotion 2 5dr: £29/£58, 43% value retained @ 3 years/36k miles

Weird. Having said that, I think they need to be taken with a pinch of salt - they also claim that a 3.6 V6 Touareg will hold its value better than a Prius.
 
I do find that odd as just looking through the local paper I see plenty of cars advervtising £35 p.a. tax and seemingly having rather steep prices. Though what they want and what they get is different, reading Honest John in the Daily Telegraph also seems to confirm this.
 
Toyota has taken to ravaging the Japanese environment so it can work on hybrid development and keep its position as #1 green automotive company. Irony? *linky link*

I'm sure it doesn't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things, but I do think it's pretty funny. And Toyota isn't really all that green in the first place building the Land Cruiser, LX, Sequoia, Tundra, Tacoma, Highlander, 4Runner and probably a few other things. VW is probably a lot greener than Toyota.
 
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