The Inconvenient Truth About Hybrids: Hybrids Owners Get More Tickets?

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Flatten mountains? It's got to be easier and cheaper to build their plant elsewhere, hell I bet they could even buy a fully working plant from GM or Chrysler here in Michigan.
 
I'm sure it doesn't mean all that much in the grand scheme of things, but I do think it's pretty funny. And Toyota isn't really all that green in the first place building the Land Cruiser, LX, Sequoia, Tundra, Tacoma, Highlander, 4Runner and probably a few other things. VW is probably a lot greener than Toyota.

I've never heard of a manufacturer that is green at all. Even if it's a manufacturer that produces hydrogen cars or electricity cars, you're still polluting by producing them.
 
I've never heard of a manufacturer that is green at all. Even if it's a manufacturer that produces hydrogen cars or electricity cars, you're still polluting by producing them.

Smart is pretty good by most standards compared to virtually any other maker. They produce small cars (less energy to produce) with very small engines (less energy to produce and low fuel consumption), most of the out-sourced parts are still produced in the same factory (little transport of bits and pieces), waste heat used for curing paint etc.

But yeah. Car production isn't the cleanest thing ever whatever you're producing...
 
Smart is pretty good by most standards compared to virtually any other maker. They produce small cars (less energy to produce) with very small engines (less energy to produce and low fuel consumption), most of the out-sourced parts are still produced in the same factory (little transport of bits and pieces), waste heat used for curing paint etc.

But yeah. Car production isn't the cleanest thing ever whatever you're producing...

The problem I'm having with all this Prius bashing is that everyone seems to ignore manuacturers that bring cars onto the market with engines that go trough enormous amounts of fuel. Granted, the Prius isn't the most green car driving around, but if Toyota managed to produce and sell the Prius on one spot, it could be a whole lot greener. But of course, who'll be driving to that one spot just to buy a car? What I'm having a problem with is that people seem to put Toyota down for producing a car that in a way offers a solution, like some sort of guideline in what direction we should move. Yet these people think it's oh so awesome brands like Dodge or Chevrolet keep bringing out cars that are fitted with big V8s. What about diesel engines, they're not so innocent either as everyone seems to think. Same goes for bio-fuel. If we'd check our sources where the fuel comes from, bio-fuel actually isn't that bad.
 
The problem I'm having with all this Prius bashing is that everyone seems to ignore manuacturers that bring cars onto the market with engines that go trough enormous amounts of fuel. Granted, the Prius isn't the most green car driving around, but if Toyota managed to produce and sell the Prius on one spot, it could be a whole lot greener. But of course, who'll be driving to that one spot just to buy a car? What I'm having a problem with is that people seem to put Toyota down for producing a car that in a way offers a solution, like some sort of guideline in what direction we should move. Yet these people think it's oh so awesome brands like Dodge or Chevrolet keep bringing out cars that are fitted with big V8s. What about diesel engines, they're not so innocent either as everyone seems to think. Same goes for bio-fuel. If we'd check our sources where the fuel comes from, bio-fuel actually isn't that bad.

Except it's been shown time and time again that the Prius isn't as green as everyone makes it out to be, nor does it really save you any money with the cost of fuel. Really if you want to save fuel and be eco-friendly, just but a car that gives you great fuel economy and is small. The Toyota Yaris is a much better option then the Prius in my opinion.
 
The problem I'm having with all this Prius bashing is that everyone seems to ignore manuacturers that bring cars onto the market with engines that go trough enormous amounts of fuel.

My problem with the Prius is that everyone seems to ignore manufacturers that make equally, if not more efficient vehicles at a fraction of the price.

There are ample numbers of family hatches with PSA's excellent 1.6 diesel that achieve similar fuel economy and are much nicer to drive. And in most cases much cheaper:

Citroen C4 1.6 Airdream+
(92BHP) (120g/km): £14,395 (before you start haggling)
Peugeot 308 (110BHP) (120g/km): £16,895
Ford Focus Econetic (110BHP) (115g/km): £16,095
Mazda 3 1.6 TS (110BHP) (119g/km): £15,760


To name just a few. There's also the Golf Bluemotion, a number of Vauxhalls, a couple of BMWs, a Toyota and a Seat with roughly the same figures. Plus you've got the smaller cars - a simple £8,000 Aygo is arguably far better friends with Mother Nature than the ultra-complicated Prius.


It's this 'the Prius is our saviour' attitude that I don't like. Yes, it's more fuel efficient than half the cars on sale in the US at the moment, but there are ample euroboxes that offer a better overall package.
 
And Toyota isn't really all that green in the first place building the Land Cruiser, LX, Sequoia, Tundra, Tacoma, Highlander, 4Runner and probably a few other things. VW is probably a lot greener than Toyota.
Since we have a Toyota plant here in Kentucky they have a huge booth every year at the state fair, usually taking up five or six (may even be more) exhibitor booth spaces. It is staffed by volunteers from the factory staff and their families. As you walk by they have every single truck on display, and then at the end they have one cross-cut hybrid model on display with a couple of signs explaining how it works, benefits, etc. Every time I look at their booth I think to myself that if Toyota truly wanted to show themselves as green they would fill the booth with their small cars and hybrids. But then a blue Yaris hatchback doesn't look nearly as sexy as a jet black Tundra.

The problem I'm having with all this Prius bashing is that everyone seems to ignore manuacturers that bring cars onto the market with engines that go trough enormous amounts of fuel.
The difference is that these manufacturers don't advertise themselves as being green and don't market their cars as both economic and solutions to oil supply problems and global warming.

Unless, I missed a new Ferrari ad, that is.

What I'm having a problem with is that people seem to put Toyota down for producing a car that in a way offers a solution, like some sort of guideline in what direction we should move.
But it is not a solution, and as they have worked hard to make hybrid technology a large trend, they are effectively slowing other manufacturers' ability to research a true solution and still maintain profitability. I am not saying Toyota is to blame for the financial situation of the American auto companies, because they were too late to even make a move toward the trend and had other issues as well.

However, I do find it interesting that two of the companies attempting to make the biggest moves toward eco-friendly trends, Toyota and VAG, are pulling sales from many others, and may possibly be battling each other for most sales in a few years.

Yet these people think it's oh so awesome brands like Dodge or Chevrolet keep bringing out cars that are fitted with big V8s.
This is partly do to car culture. People less interested in fuel economy and more into wanting driving to be about more than getting from Point A to Point B are going to be more open to calling Toyota out on their conflicting goals and look deeper into the true economic value of a hybrid. Plus, even if these people had a Prius and drove it like they didn't care about the fuel savings, they would barely get any more benefit than from any other car.

But if you step outside of the car culture realm, away from political commentators, and just look at average guys who wish to be informed you will see that they aren't cheering for the next big muscle car either. I'm talking about guys like my dad, who wants an everyday car and an efficient pickup, nothing more.

What about diesel engines, they're not so innocent either as everyone seems to think.
But diesel uses upgraded forms of current technology to reach the same, or better, efficiency and pollution levels. It acts as an in-between but allows for new fuel sources to be researched without creating a trend that pulls research away. Diesel is the same natural progression of technology that you see in any petrol car.

Same goes for bio-fuel. If we'd check our sources where the fuel comes from, bio-fuel actually isn't that bad.
Bio-fuel has significant problems though. It is most efficient when made from sugar cane, but sugar cane is best grown in tropical climates. Unfortunately farming in tropical climates often requires destroying rain forests. So, to produce large quantities would require destroying the environment anyway.

The other alternative, that is currently used in the US, is to find a plant source that can be grown in a much larger climate zone. Certain types of corn/grains work great for that, but due to its loss of efficiency we still don't have enough available farmlands to supply the planet. Factor in that switching current corn/grain cropland to focus on bio-fuel effects many other things. Animal feed supply is reduced, so the feed cost rises, and now we see meat and dairy prices increasing. It also means less human food corn, so corn, and all the food stuffs made from it, has prices go up. And most disastrous, less hops are being grown and my beer prices have gone up.

And I haven't even gotten into the fact that bio-fuels from corn, such as ethanol, are not getting the same mileage as petrol and thus means that it has some more advancements to make before it is actually a cost benefit to consumers.


My personal thoughts are that as an interim technology we should focus on clean diesel and then see what advancements we can make with ethanol while researching other alternative fuels as well.

But whatever the end result is it must meet a few requirements:
  1. Equal to or less than cost of petrol to the consumer (this won't be completely determined until it has large market accessibility, but the research will show if it is possible before we start).
  2. It serves to meet the wants of both daily and fun drivers.
  3. Has all the conveniences of filling up with petrol in under five minutes.
  4. Of course, low pollution.
  5. Easily produced in multiple regions of the world.
 
Since we have a Toyota plant here in Kentucky they have a huge booth every year at the state fair, usually taking up five or six (may even be more) exhibitor booth spaces. It is staffed by volunteers from the factory staff and their families. As you walk by they have every single truck on display, and then at the end they have one cross-cut hybrid model on display with a couple of signs explaining how it works, benefits, etc. Every time I look at their booth I think to myself that if Toyota truly wanted to show themselves as green they would fill the booth with their small cars and hybrids. But then a blue Yaris hatchback doesn't look nearly as sexy as a jet black Tundra.

Too true.




But it is not a solution, and as they have worked hard to make hybrid technology a large trend, they are effectively slowing other manufacturers' ability to research a true solution and still maintain profitability. I am not saying Toyota is to blame for the financial situation of the American auto companies, because they were too late to even make a move toward the trend and had other issues as well.

A solution indeed it not is. But I do think it offers a path to a solution. For example; We drive on LPG, Liquified Petroleum Gas. LPG is by no means a green solution to petrol or diesel since LPG is some kind of waste taken from the production of these fuels. However, LPG costs only half the amount of petrol and diesel. But the biggest benefits is that CO2 emission levels are decreased dramatically. NOX particles, which are probably the most dangerous emission particles that come from burning a fuel, and which diesel cars emit far more than petrol cars, are not emitted by LPG cars whatsoever. The power loss on our cars has been calculated to only 1%, and fuel mileage is the same, if not better, than petrol for our Mitsu Pajero and VW Caddy. LPG is by no means a solution to the problem, but it is a momentary solution, as in a solution we can use now while technology is further developing. The problem with LPG though, is that it's nearly not supported. Most manufacturers are advertising for their latest hydrogen or bio-fuel cars, yet LPG is left aside. There are few who know you don't need to ditch your family car for a Honda hybrid to drive greener. Instead, these people do not know that they can cut their emission levels off of their car by at least 50% by switching over to LPG. The biggest problem still remains LPG fuel stations, for the above mentioned reasons.

However, I do find it interesting that two of the companies attempting to make the biggest moves toward eco-friendly trends, Toyota and VAG, are pulling sales from many others, and may possibly be battling each other for most sales in a few years.

I will agree that brands seem to battle eachother more for sales, if that's what you were saying, rather than giving us what they promissed; greener cars. However, I also think in a way of "you get what you paid for". Earlier today I read two different car surveys that were each splitted by a few months. Toyota and BMW came on top of nearly everything and left the competition behind, which may be the cause of them outselling other brands in their native culture. If I had the choice between a Chevrolet and a Toyota, when the Chevrolet comes with a V6, the Toyota with a 1.6L engine. I know that Toyota is reliable, gives me what I paid for, gives me a solid car, gives me top-notch service and an exeptionally safe vehicle, and I know I'm looking for a fuel conservative car and not a fast, fun sportscar, why would I choose the Chevrolet? Now, I don't know the difference between Euro and US Toyotas, so I'm merely making this comparison based on the numbers I had in the magazine.



But if you step outside of the car culture realm, away from political commentators, and just look at average guys who wish to be informed you will see that they aren't cheering for the next big muscle car either. I'm talking about guys like my dad, who wants an everyday car and an efficient pickup, nothing more.

And this shows how different car culture is between our countries. Personally, I don't understand why Chevrolet is still offering so many models with such heavy engines, even though Euro Chevys are Kia ripp-offs (Was it Kia?) and they do come with light 4-cylinder engines. Now, forgive me, I do not know the complete Chevy or Dodge line-up, but American cars do nealry always come with far heavier engines than European or Japanese cars. This, I think, we can agree on. What I'm missing is advertisements for fuel conservative cars. I always see how the latest BMW or Audi has this and that, and aerodynamic shapes, and a 100 cup holders, and a sport version, this and that. But I never hear what kind of efforts the brand has done to make the car fuel conservative. I wish some manufacturers would be able to make a solid advert where they show exactly how the situation is and grab you by the throat.


But diesel uses upgraded forms of current technology to reach the same, or better, efficiency and pollution levels. It acts as an in-between but allows for new fuel sources to be researched without creating a trend that pulls research away. Diesel is the same natural progression of technology that you see in any petrol car.

There is a difference between how diesel and petrol engines affect global warming with CO2 emissions, and air quality. At the end of this quote, I will link you to a great article that talks about diesel and petrol engines. Yes, diesel does emit less CO2 and half the amount of CO. However, people are forgetting about NOx, a pollutant that is most dangerous to clean air quality. Diesel engines emit up to 24 times more NOx particles than petrol engines. But this doesn't take away that we should develop our diesel engines though. As you said, diesel engines are pretty new, and we haven't fully developed them. Diesel engines will emit less CO2 and CO. But I doubt they will ever emit less NOx than a petrol engine. Article.


Bio-fuel has significant problems though. It is most efficient when made from sugar cane, but sugar cane is best grown in tropical climates. Unfortunately farming in tropical climates often requires destroying rain forests. So, to produce large quantities would require destroying the environment anyway.

In fact, there is an alternative to plants high in sugars; rapeseed. Bio fuels are also produced from vegetable oils, which are found in plants like rapeseed. But you mentioned the problem already:

The other alternative, that is currently used in the US, is to find a plant source that can be grown in a much larger climate zone. Certain types of corn/grains work great for that, but due to its loss of efficiency we still don't have enough available farmlands to supply the planet. Factor in that switching current corn/grain cropland to focus on bio-fuel effects many other things. Animal feed supply is reduced, so the feed cost rises, and now we see meat and dairy prices increasing. It also means less human food corn, so corn, and all the food stuffs made from it, has prices go up. And most disastrous, less hops are being grown and my beer prices have gone up.

And I haven't even gotten into the fact that bio-fuels from corn, such as ethanol, are not getting the same mileage as petrol and thus means that it has some more advancements to make before it is actually a cost benefit to consumers.

It takes far too much rapeseed plants to get a whole tank of ethanol to drive on. That's also why farmers in the rainforest take advantage of this. There is a huge demand after these oil or sugar crops, but it takes so much land to grow them that we have to demand our crops from other lands. Which gives that farmers are cutting down our so precious rainforest in order to grow crops in order to save the rainforest. What a paradox.
 
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There is a difference between how diesel and petrol engines affect global warming with CO2 missions, and air quality. At the end of this quote, I will link you to a great article that talks about diesel and petrol engines. Yes, diesel does emit less CO2 and half the amount of CO. However, people are forgetting about NOx, a pollutant that is most dangerous to clean air quality. Diesel engines emit up to 24 times more NOx particles than petrol engines. But this doesn't take away that we should develop our diesel engines though. As you said, diesel engines are pretty new, and we haven't fully developed them. Diesel engines will emit less CO2 and CO. But I doubt they will ever emit less NOx than a petrol engine. Article.
As that data is a couple of years old I am interested in what changes they find now, particularly since their measurements show they were not using a DPF, and quote their data from January 2007. Assuming their own data is correct they should be getting less than .005 g/km of PM with a DPF, but their test results show .011 g/km.

Considering that since that was written most cars use DPFs, I know the PM is now under .005 g/km. Similarly the Jetta TDi is using a NOx storage catalyst, and in order for diesels to pass NOx standards in all 50 states they need some form of BlueTec system. The amount to pass the Tier 2 standards in the US is under .05 g/m (~.08 g/km if my math is correct), which is significantly lower than what that article was measuring. Still higher than petrol, but not nearly as high, and that is assuming the systems only perform for the maximum allowed, and not less.
 
As that data is a couple of years old I am interested in what changes they find now, particularly since their measurements show they were not using a DPF, and quote their data from January 2007. Assuming their own data is correct they should be getting less than .005 g/km of PM with a DPF, but their test results show .011 g/km.

Considering that since that was written most cars use DPFs, I know the PM is now under .005 g/km. Similarly the Jetta TDi is using a NOx storage catalyst, and in order for diesels to pass NOx standards in all 50 states they need some form of BlueTec system. The amount to pass the Tier 2 standards in the US is under .05 g/m (~.08 g/km if my math is correct), which is significantly lower than what that article was measuring. Still higher than petrol, but not nearly as high, and that is assuming the systems only perform for the maximum allowed, and not less.

Ah, but the States aren't the whole world ;)

Many cars drive around without a system to fully clean the emissions from NOx. Even though these systems are there, I'm sure they still emit more NOx than petrol engines. Even though cars have particle filters, they don't really stop NOx from getting true, so they have to have a special system like you mentioned. I found myself shocked today when I read that if I buy a Hyundai i30, it comes without a particle filter. Manufacturers want to sell greener cars, yet they don't even fit a particle filter? :odd:
 
Honestly, I'm surprised the states are more strict than others on this.

If I understand correctly though, the VW/Audi TDi systems should all come with the DPF and the storage catalyst.

The stricter regulations in the US could explain why we see very few diesels.
 
The stricter regulations in the US could explain why we see very few diesels.

Really? So most cars in the US are still running petrol then? Could this also explain the high salenumbers of the Prius you think?
 
Really? So most cars in the US are still running petrol then?
Well, there are plenty of heavy machinery trucks and stuff using diesel, but it had such a huge stigma from the consumer market for being dirty that they have had a very low demand. VW has been playing a large roll in changing that view though, and I am hopeful that as demand increases supply will as well.

Could this also explain the high salenumbers of the Prius you think?
It actually is working both ways at this point. The stigma against diesels made people not even look at the ones that were available and buy hybrids. After the newer tech went into place in 2007 and the new clean diesels began showing up people still had their pre-conceived notions and by that point hybrids were the big thing, so they didn't bother paying attention.

My brother, who owns a first gen Prius, refused to believe anything I told him about the new Jetta TDi until I showed him multiple articles, the 28 mpg averaged at in the Jetta TDi Cup racing series, and others, and even then he still said, "Yeah, but diesel is hard to find." :odd: Every fuel station I pass, particularly on the interstate, has the prices displayed with diesel clearly listed. A certain brand of truck stops, Pilot, even lists one price for cash customers and another for truck drivers buying on credit, in large green lighted numbers.

People not liking diesels helped hybrids gain popularity, and then the hybrid hysteria led to people ignoring newer and better diesels.

Fortunatley, VW has an ad out where the Jetta TDi is compared to a Prius and the Prius driver is shocked by the efficiency and then embarrased when asked how "cool" his Prius' engine sounds. VW is fighting hybrid hysteria.
 
The problem I'm having with all this Prius bashing is that everyone seems to ignore manuacturers that bring cars onto the market with engines that go trough enormous amounts of fuel.

Toyota also builds cars that go through a lot of fuel. The thing about Toyota is that they build the same cars as your average American automaker and then the Prius. And then they suddenly go out and proclaim themselves as the greenest company out there, even though there is only one car that separates them from the 'ecoterrorist' domestic carmakers.

I think Toyota would be much less easy to pick on if they didn't claim themselves as being green when they are actually pretty far from it. Unless of course that giant lifted Tundra with super swampers and off-road mods actually is good for the planet just because of the badge on the hood. It would be interesting to see some actual representations of how much eco damage a company does per car produced and their average fleet emissions. I bet Toyota wouldn't do as well as they would hope to.
 
Honda, in particular, has been recognized for being green with various awards... while some Honda models are a tad less economical than Toyota models of the same size and displacement, Honda is one major manufacturer that has resisted the trend towards larger and larger engines in their vehicles... one of the reasons the Ridgeline is so widely derided is the fact that it's not avaliable with a V8.

Toyota is no worse than most manufacturers, and, in general, their cars are quite economical... but they get too much of a free ride with the Prius.

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Been doing LPG for over a year, already... dyno-tuned and making the same power as on gasoline, except at redline (where it's 3 hp less) and under really heavy loads. There are still some issues that need to be addressed... such as tank usability... you can't fill the tank 100%, for safety reasons, and you get rough running when the tank pressure is too low, but I think these issues can be ironed out with vaariable-sized tanks... maybe by adding an inflatable bladder inside the tank to keep LPG pressure constant.

LPG just isn't "sexy" enough for most companies to pay it much attention, but it's amazingly prevalent in some markets, simply because it makes so much sense. The startup capital for installing an LPG pump is about the same as installing a gasoline pump, so if the local supply infrastructure is there and there are customers, an LPG station is very easy to set up.

It's a far better alternative to CNG (which needs heavy, high pressure tanks, and has the nasty side effect of blowing up in a fire... LPG burns in a fireball, but with modern safety valves, doesn't explode) or to hydrogen (still ridiculously expensive to tool up for, on both the supplier side and the consumer side)... and LPG... being a byproduct of petroleum production... has the interesting quality of also being a by-product of biofuel production.

Anyone want an LPG Elantra? First hybrid mass-market LPG system straight from the factory...

http://www.hyundai.com.au/Hyundai-taking-pre-launch-orders-for-Elantra-LPI-Hybrid/default.aspx
Elantra_LPI_Hybrid_01_20090617.jpg


Take note... LPG typically costs half as much as gasoline... so if the Elantra LPI has the same economy as the Prius, it'll still cost half-as-much to run, and about 1/4th or so as much as a comparable gasoline car... which makes the return-on-investment calculations more attractive than regular hybrids.

More attractive, that is, if you already have a local LPG infrastructure (like we do)... :D
 
That's great niky! Finally somebody as well who's an LPG driver 👍

About the issues, is your tank connected with extra software? We install an extra computer into the engine bay, and we then hook it up to a computer which then calculates the optimum temperature to switch onto LPG. Also, via this software you can regulte pretty much everything such as LPG useage and much more. Our cars drive without any issues. Nearly every customer we've had never even noticed they indeed were driving on LPG. We've had a few customers that asked us where all their money went because they couldn't find the tank, and neither did they notice any difference in the car :lol:
 
The stricter regulations in the US could explain why we see very few diesels.

The California regulations put a poo-poo on diesels in some states, but for the rest of the country, many of the cars snuck in without having to meet those regulations. However, as technology has moved forward, almost all of the modern diesel cars meet or exceed the rather-high California ratings.

Really, only Volkswagen and Audi have remained fully-comitted to bringing diesel vehicles into the United States with their most-popular models. Sure, BMW has brought over the diesel X5 and 3-series, but that hasn't meant much. Mercedes has their typical BluTec options on the E and ML series vehicles, but that hasn't meant much either.

I still think the game changer would have been having Honda do the diesel Accord like they promised, which continues to be something that we're waiting for. Similarly, with GM and Chrysler in their own messes, my guess is that any planned diesel foray into the market has been shelved completely (the CTS and 300, presumably).

With the costs low, and demand for economy high, why not do it? Can it really be that hard to essentially ship over models that are already being produced elsewhere in the world?
 
That's great niky! Finally somebody as well who's an LPG driver 👍

About the issues, is your tank connected with extra software? We install an extra computer into the engine bay, and we then hook it up to a computer which then calculates the optimum temperature to switch onto LPG. Also, via this software you can regulte pretty much everything such as LPG useage and much more. Our cars drive without any issues. Nearly every customer we've had never even noticed they indeed were driving on LPG. We've had a few customers that asked us where all their money went because they couldn't find the tank, and neither did they notice any difference in the car :lol:

Our problem is that we're running LPG through two separate piggybacks. I have a pre-ECU piggyback that controls both my gasoline and LPG maps (which I need to control idle on the lumpy cams on my motor) and the LPG computer is a post-ECU piggyback that acts as an injector intercept. Both are dyno-tuned. Most other guys with this unit have no problem at all (in fact, a friend with a Corolla is getting better fuel economy on LPG compared to gasoline!), so we're still trying to trace where in the wiring, fuel maps (on three different computers, mind you), ignition maps (on just two... :lol: ) and accessory and adaptive functions the LPG is triggering a fault. It might just be that my ignition advance is way too aggressive, causing a fault at certain LP levels, or it could be that we have too much or too little fuel plugged into the non-LPG computer, which interacts improperly with the lean-running mode the stock ECU enters when cold... multiplied by the fact that the LPG evaporator cools down the engine further through the coolant circuit... and hobbled by the fact that my O2 circuit is unplugged while I try to diagnose all of this.

Getting a nosebleed yet? I am! :lol:

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Buddies with the system are quite happy. As long as it's your only piggyback, you can tune the LPG fuel computer so that your car makes just as much power as stock... and in some cases, if your car's stock ECU is a complete dunce... MORE power... worth the extra money paid for an hour's tuning on the dyno.

And of course, if you have a turbocharged car... the extra octane of LPG allows you to run much, much more boost, safely. Not many tuners biting, though... the market here is mostly taxi operators and daily drivers.
 
More on how hybrids aren't really all they are cracked up to be.

Autoblog
STUDY: Despite insurance breaks, hybrids driven more, cost more to fix, and get more tickets
Conventional wisdom is that hybrid vehicles reduce our dependence on foreign oil and emit fewer environment hurting CO2 emissions. When comparing a hybrid to a conventional gasoline-powered model on a mile-by-mile basis, there's some logic to this argument provided the pricing disparity between the two models isn't too broad. However, a new study by Quality Planning shows that hybrid owners drive much more than non-hybrid owners, potentially negating the benefits of the added battery pack and electric motor.

Quality Planning studied nearly 360,000 vehicles throughout 2007 and 2008 to analyze driving habits, and some of the study's findings are pretty surprising. According to the survey, hybrid and non-hybrid drivers have statistically similar commutes, but hybrid owners drive their vehicles 25% more (2,000 miles) in non-commuting scenarios.

Dr. Raj Bhat, president of Quality Planning, thinks part of the reason for these findings has something to do with the fact that high mileage drivers are typically more interested in hybrids than infrequent drivers.

"What we don't know is whether owning a hybrid vehicle encourages people to drive more miles each day or take more pleasure trips. High-mileage drivers appear to be attracted to these vehicles, so insurers should take steps to verify the intended use of hybrids and validate actual miles driven wherever possible."

The study also shows that hybrid owners are significantly more likely to receive traffic tickets. According to the survey, Toyota Prius owners received .38 tickets per 100,000 miles driven, versus a non-hybrid average of .23 tickets per 100,000 miles. That's a 65% differential. One possible explanation for the ticket disparity has to do with where hybrid owners live. Quality Planning found that hybrid owners are more likely to live in an urban setting, where tickets are more frequently issued.

If you really want a hybrid and you don't want to hear any more bad news, you should stop reading. QP also found that repair costs are significantly higher for hybrid owners. The Ford Escape Hybrid, for example, costs 31% more to repair than the gasoline-only model, while repairing the Toyota Highlander Hybrid will reportedly add 45% more cost. A recent report by IntelliChoice that found that, in the long-term, hybrids and diesels are actually cheaper than gasoline-only vehicles.

The text below illustrates how much on a per dollar basis hybrid repair costs for collision and comprehensive coverage versus one dollar for a non-hybrid. The disparity is shrinking every year, but according to QP, hybrids still cost more to fix. Hit the jump to view the Quality Planning press release.

Collision Comprehensive
Coverage Coverage

2006 Hybrid Models $1.16 $1.75
2007 Hybrid Models $1.09 $1.35
2008 Hybrid Models $1.13 $1.17

I figured they were more expensive to repair, but how anyone in a Prius gets a speeding ticket is beyond me. Although maybe it shouldn't surprise me because here my buddy is doing 80mph and we got passed by a Prius which was 90mph+.

6480_588249915676_38505333_34109249_4827407_n.jpg
 
I am also very surprised to see that hybrid owners get ticketed more often. Maybe for going slowly and parking illegally?

And I guess it is impossible to get a hybrid serviced anywhere other than at a dealer. Priuses supposedly are running 22 volts through them at all times, so servicing would be a little difficult with that.
 
More on how hybrids aren't really all they are cracked up to be.



I figured they were more expensive to repair, but how anyone in a Prius gets a speeding ticket is beyond me. Although maybe it shouldn't surprise me because here my buddy is doing 80mph and we got passed by a Prius which was 90mph+.

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Is that a V6 Escape you're in? I like the looks of that Tach.
 
I am also very surprised to see that hybrid owners get ticketed more often. Maybe for going slowly and parking illegally?

After thinking about it most hybrids are bought for city use, so I have to imagine you are right with the parking ticket explanation. Probably also they have hyper-milers who blow red lights and what not.

And I guess it is impossible to get a hybrid serviced anywhere other than at a dealer. Priuses supposedly are running 22 volts through them at all times, so servicing would be a little difficult with that.

That's a good point, I would assume you have to get them serviced at the dealer only because I can't imagine any other mechanic shop would be certified in the system. I would be curious for the answer to this though.

Is that a V6 Escape you're in? I like the looks of that Tach.

Yup, it's a 2003 or something. It was my buddy's mom's Escape, we took it Chicago a couple weekends ago because we all drove to small of cars to transport 3 people at their crap effectively and comfortably.
 
If you drive more, you get more tickets. Note that the study said that most users rack up more miles, which indicates a lot of highway use, too... which probably means more speeding tickets.

Kind of a no-comment-needed survey result to be taken with a grain of salt... meaningless statistics. Or... do the hybrids cause these behaviors and driving habits, or is it just that people with these behaviors and driving habits buy hybrids?

As for repair cost... understandable... expensive vehicle, expensive repairs... even if the purchase cost doesn't really reflect the full cost of the vehicle thanks to government incentives.
 
It is interesting that they would be ticketed more often. Because I'd rate hybrid drivers to me on the more timid side of the scale, so they must be getting ticketed for something other than speeding. Although every now and then you do see that one Prius that's going crazy through traffic. It could just be a numbers game that you're comparing them to all the other cars on the road, so the two or three that you see every month more than make up for the rest of the speeders you see proportionally.

Maybe they all take their front plates off because we all know how much hurts their precious drag coefficient...

Yup, it's a 2003 or something. It was my buddy's mom's Escape, we took it Chicago a couple weekends ago because we all drove to small of cars to transport 3 people at their crap effectively and comfortably.

Really? The GTI swallowed 5 people and all of their stuff for a three day weekend. And the back window wasn't blocked at all. I'm kinda surprised the MINI couldn't take three people, especially with folding seats.
 
I can see this. My brother has a Prius and any time he and his wife go anywhere they take it over her Camry, because it gets better mileage.

As for the speeding tickets; It is about who drives them. In my brother's case, he is an early adopter and promotes hybrid useage as a way to save the planet, or he thinks you are a heartless jerk and your clean diesel comments are met with irrationality. He coasts through his neighborhood at agonizingly slow speeds to prevent using any gas. But what about the people buying them today? It is easy to see aroun here that more average people are buying them as their everyday car, but they are not changing their driving habits. They will go down the interstate at 90mph, not knowing that they are getting zero benefit from their hybrid, or roll through a yellow changing to a red in these urban cities using traffic cameras. In fact, they may (pure conjecture on my part now) even drive a bit less conservatively than before because they have it in their heads that they are balancing out the fuel cost.

Or, cops hate them. If I were a traffic cop and had to stare at traffic all day I would hunt down the ugly spot a Prius becomes too.



Yup, it's a 2003 or something. It was my buddy's mom's Escape, we took it Chicago a couple weekends ago because we all drove to small of cars to transport 3 people at their crap effectively and comfortably.
Really? The GTI swallowed 5 people and all of their stuff for a three day weekend. And the back window wasn't blocked at all. I'm kinda surprised the MINI couldn't take three people, especially with folding seats.
I'll back this up with an image of just such an event of three men and their stuff in a three-door Golf model.
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That was from a six hour trip. Granted, we were more concerned about how much beer we could fit in the car than anything else.
 
Really? The GTI swallowed 5 people and all of their stuff for a three day weekend. And the back window wasn't blocked at all. I'm kinda surprised the MINI couldn't take three people, especially with folding seats.

It could take three people, just not very comfortably for any length of time. Plus the three of us all had large bags because we had brought our suits and a lot of other dress clothes. My one buddy had a 3 door Focus, which we would have taken but the boot is filled with audio equipment. And my other buddy has a Firebird Formula with the rear seats removed. The Escape was just a better fit for us all.

I can fit a lot of crap in the MINI though:

That's 7 computers, plus an empty case and a bunch of computer parts.
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Honda Fit FTW... great legroom... and the new one has even better luggage capacity thanks to the longer body.

Of course, the fifth passenger will have to be pretty petite... not much elbow room in there. :lol:
 
how anyone in a Prius gets a speeding ticket is beyond me

I've never seen a Prius on a motorway driving at anything less than "my house is on fire".
 
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