2008 24 Hours of Le Mans

Compared to last year's, it's faster, more reliable, and just a better car, by a huge margin.

As for what needs to be done, it's really nothing we can say without the full information, and some slightly better knowledge of racecar mechanics. The Peugeot and Dome are the class of the field at the moment in terms of aerodynamics - the Dome, underpowered with the petrol Judd, managed to equal the Audi's trap-speeds and corner speeds, though the Peugeot beat them both - but who knows if by how much the aerodynamic performance will be compromised by enlarging the radiators or whatever is needed to keep the car cooled?

The 908 might need to compromise some of it's superior pace in favour of a softer drive in rainy conditions, or in favour of cooling and access. Perhaps they also need to redesign the construction of the car itself into a more modular build - the Audi team gains a lot of time by simply being able to replace huge parts of the car at once, as a complete structure. But other than telling them "make it go faster and more reliable", we can't know what's there to change - it's far too complicated for us forum shmoes without big models and hard data.

The two major problems seemed to be that they didn't fix their cooling problems right and their pace in the wet. All 3 of the cars had these issues. The #8 was just an unlucky car. I don't know what affected their pace in the wet. But they could have afforded to lose some time in the dry to gain some in the wet. Or maybe it was due to visibility or the car isn't good in the wet overall (not likely) and not much can be done.

Here's a quick note I'd like to share. Risi's win in GT2 was Risi's first class victory in GT2. They won back in 1998 in that beautiful-as-hell Ferrari 333SP in LMP1. The 1998 victor was a Porsche 911 GT1.

ROAD_DOGG33J

The two major problems seemed to be that they didn't fix their cooling problems right and their pace in the wet. All 3 of the cars had these issues. The #8 was just an unlucky car. I don't know what affected their pace in the wet. But they could have afforded to lose some time in the dry to gain some in the wet. Or maybe it was due to visibility or the car isn't good in the wet overall (not likely) and not much can be done.

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Villeneuve was complaining of snap oversteer in the wet. Perhaps an access hatch by the suspension adjustment components could facilitate a change to the spring rates so that it could be softened in a pit stop would help.

ROAD_DOGG33J

Or maybe it was due to visibility or the car isn't good in the wet overall (not likely) and not much can be done.

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The car was slow because of the way it was set up: The drivers noted that the stiff suspension was perfect for the dry track, but didn't allow them to put the power down as early in the wet, which cost them tremendous amounts of time.

JohnBM01

They won back in 1998 in that beautiful-as-hell Ferrari 333SP in LMP1. The 1998 victor was a Porsche 911 GT1.

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They didn't win anything at Le Mans with the 333SP - they won a class victory in a field as outdated and slow and unimportant as the LMP2 class of a few years ago, when, for example, the 2004 victor of the LMP2 class was just one of two finishers overall - and in 25th position.
Also, your optometrist would like word with you:

JohnBM01

I still think the Peugeots need to be even better engineered to actually be able to handle the 24 Hours of Le Mans. Weren't the Audi boys talking about how the 908 HDI FAP was designed for sprint races and not full-on endurances? Or maybe Peugeot just needs to have more efficient pit stops with this car. I don't know what exact changes because I'm not a race constructor or one who spends hours of his like making CAD models for a more effeciently-performing Peugeot. Here's a technical question for you all...

What changes to the Peugeot 908 HDI FAP do you think needs to be made for this car to perform more efficiently for next year's race (granted they are invited next year, which is likely)? How do you think this year's car compares to last year's 908?

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Quite obvious that more pace in the wet. They can handle 24 hours, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't want to seem rude, but from some of your comments, it sounds to me like you didn't even watch the race last weekend.

I think 2009 could be Peugeot's year. They should have most issues fixed. Audi will be debuting a new car and they will have to sort it out. We still don't know if it will run on diesel or not.

MustangSVT

Quite obvious that more pace in the wet. They can handle 24 hours, I don't know what you're talking about.

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I don't that "more pace in the wet" is the only thing they need to care about. And, even that, it's no small thing to care, considering how often we have weather changes during the 24 hours of that race.

I'd say Peugeot had 3 problems this year:

1) Reliability - #8 car suffered gearbox problems early in the race, all cars had overheating problems.

2) Fuel consumption - They pitted for fuel more often than the Audis.

3) Tuning - It's either engine (torque) or suspensions, probably both, but they need to have a car that can handle both dry and wet conditions, preferably adjustable on-the-fly, to avoid more time spent in the pits.

Hun200kmh

I don't that "more pace in the wet" is the only thing they need to care about. And, even that, it's no small thing to care, considering how often we have weather changes during the 24 hours of that race.

I'd say Peugeot had 3 problems this year:

1) Reliability - #8 car suffered gearbox problems early in the race, all cars had overheating problems.

2) Fuel consumption - They pitted for fuel more often than the Audis.

3) Tuning - It's either engine (torque) or suspensions, probably both, but they need to have a car that can handle both dry and wet conditions, preferably adjustable on-the-fly, to avoid more time spent in the pits.

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Somehow, I find Problem #2 funny and ironic

Metar

Also, your optometrist would like word with you

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2 things wrong with that comment:

1. He actually wears glasses so thats a slight bit an insult not to mention I also wear glasses.

2. That wasn't really necessary to tell him that he has gotten the Doyle Risi Ferrari confused with the Doran Racing Ferrari.

I'm not trying to attack you here, but ease up abit. So he got one thign alightly off, there was no need to go that far in letting him know that.

Hun200kmh

I don't that "more pace in the wet" is the only thing they need to care about. And, even that, it's no small thing to care, considering how often we have weather changes during the 24 hours of that race.

I'd say Peugeot had 3 problems this year:

1) Reliability - #8 car suffered gearbox problems early in the race, all cars had overheating problems.

2) Fuel consumption - They pitted for fuel more often than the Audis.

3) Tuning - It's either engine (torque) or suspensions, probably both, but they need to have a car that can handle both dry and wet conditions, preferably adjustable on-the-fly, to avoid more time spent in the pits.

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I don't think fuel consumption was really a problem. They chose speed over fuel consumption. I think they had enough of that to overcome the time spent in the pits.

But that will be changed for next year if the regulations are changed to slow the LMP1's down.

Regulations in order to slow LMP1s down to 3'30s are theoretically here, and working: Most of the Petrol LMP1s didn't do much faster than it in race-trim (In the 9th hour, 3'29 was the fastest by the Dome S102), but diesels are the problem since they're still too fast.

I suspect, however, that the new(er) rules will be delayed by a year to allow Peugeot another shot... Unless Henri Pescarolo pulls the other way hard enough.

Hun200kmh

1) Reliability - #8 car suffered gearbox problems early in the race, all cars had overheating problems.

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The Audi R10 #1 spent ages in the pits for a clutch - these things happen to anyone. Overheating, however, was a design-fault.

Hun200kmh

2) Fuel consumption - They pitted for fuel more often than the Audis.

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Both cars could survive 11 laps consistently, 12 laps top.

Hun200kmh

3) Tuning - It's either engine (torque) or suspensions, probably both, but they need to have a car that can handle both dry and wet conditions, preferably adjustable on-the-fly, to avoid more time spent in the pits.

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Suspensions and balance - I don't see why engine-torque should affect performance in wet conditions.

RACECAR

2 things wrong with that comment:

1. He actually wears glasses so thats a slight bit an insult not to mention I also wear glasses.

2. That wasn't really necessary to tell him that he has gotten the Doyle Risi Ferrari confused with the Doran Racing Ferrari.

I'm not trying to attack you here, but ease up abit.

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I also wear glasses. I didn't notice it was the teams that are wrong - it's the beauty of the Ferrari which is questionable.

People, please stop defending yourselves in a fight that isn't really existing.

I think that there's too much disparity between the petrols and the diesels in LMP1, and if the diesels are pulled back a little, it will bring them closer to the 3:30 benchmark. The Peugeots were running 3:22s in the race, with the Audis on 3:25. Another 30Kg and a chop of 1mm on the restrictor should sort it.

I started a pretty nice debate on Myspace. I sent a comment to SpeedFreaks on Myspace, who then offered me a message on Myspace. Statt Man Caruthers and Crash Gladys offered their views as to if Tom Kristensen is one of the best sportscar racers in this era, here were their responses:


From Statt - Your unrelenting respect for Tom Kristensen is, by no means, misplaced. He is ONE of the best sports car drivers ever, certainly at Lemans. I have far different criteria, though. I want to see drivers cross disciplines before I apply the term 'greatest'.

Mark Donohue, for example, drove in F1, won at Indy and won Can-Am championships. He finished fourth at Lemans with Bruce McLaren in a Ford GT40 but never won there. Probably could have if he'd have continued with Ford and not joined forces with Roger Penske a year later but "probably-ies"
don't fit here do they?

If Kristensen showed the same success in the DTM, I'd even buy that. He's the greatest ever at Lemans but the greatest sports car driver ever? Not in my book as of now. But, again, my criteria no doubt is different than yours. Consider too that Kristensen is driving maybe the greatest sports car for the greatest sports car team ever assembled... ANYWHERE!! Audi's commitment to winning at Lemans is unprecedented. He gains from that certainly.

Jackie Ickx might even be ahead of Kristensen because he had success in other forms of racing especially F1. He ran there for more than a dozen years and had at least eight wins. He also is the only man to ever win at Lemans and the 24 Hours of Wisborough Green Lawn Mower race. A strange double to be sure but one an ex-friend reminded of periodically - I miss Jim often. Haven't talked with him in years. He promoted the lawn mower race - and was at the drink fest that created it - and loved it dearly.
Statt Mann



From Crash - Tom Kristensen is, IMO, one of the best drivers of this era. Who else would I consider 'in this era'? Mario Andretti was another era, so .... Maybe Scott Dixon, Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, Steve Kinser, Juan Montoya, Alex Zanardi, Tom Kristensen, even Allan McNish, Kyle Busch, Sebastien Bourdais and who knows with some of these young guys... Notice not every one of the drivers I mentioned has had success crossing disciplines, but they did or are at least mastering their individual craft and that alone should be commended. So to say Tom Kristensen is one of the greatest sports car drivers, absolutely yes... but one of the greatest drivers of all time? MAYBE, but I'd more or less be with Statt on that aspect of it... if he had success in other forms of motorsports, then I would say without question he would be one of the greatest overall drivers, like an Andretti or Foyt or Parnelli Jones... but for now, I'll keep him as one of the great sports car drivers... and hope his DTM career gets better ;-) And at this moment, let's just screw statistics and celebrate his LARGE accomplishments at LeMans as he should be toasting to himself for years to come on what he just did!!!!!
Crasher

So... what would be your reaction to what these two think of Tom Kristensen? Who do you think has the better argument?



[UPDATE] - I didn't appreciate these cheap shots against me. The 1998 bit was what I got from Risi Competizione's home page ( http://www.risicompetizione.com ). I know I make detailed posts, but I am human. I get things wrong. Even as someone said once in the past: "you even get basic facts wrong." If you're going to disagree, there's something called constructive criticism. I don't want to go back to the days in which I'm a scratching post to other GTP people.

I think Senna, Schumacher, Loeb to name a few are all on another level compared to Tom Kristensen. TK has had a competitive car at Le Mans ever since I can remember so it's no surprise he'd performed well. From watching the whole race, I would say Stephane Sarrazin and Pedro Lamy are both equally as good or better from some of their stints on the #8 car. I would also say that I find David Brabham, Allan McNish better than him. I was more impressed with Jos Verstappen's drive in the LMP2 Porsche as well than TK's drive. As for best race drivers today, that honour goes to someone like Sebastien Loeb or Kimi Raikkonen. Most likely Loeb.

Also regarding the Peugeot thing:

I'd say Peugeot had 3 problems this year:

1) Reliability - #8 car suffered gearbox problems early in the race, all cars had overheating problems.

2) Fuel consumption - They pitted for fuel more often than the Audis.

3) Tuning - It's either engine (torque) or suspensions, probably both, but they need to have a car that can handle both dry and wet conditions, preferably adjustable on-the-fly, to avoid more time spent in the pits.

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1. No. Luck of the draw really. The overheating thing didn't cause too much of a concern. 2 of out of 3 Peugeots had no major problems, same goes for Audi. The 2 "slower" Peugeots finished ahead of both "slower" Audis. Audi just got lucky that they had problems on the #3 car. Could've been the #2 car and then the Peugeot #7 would have easily won it..

2. Again no. faster car, same fuel capacity, and all the P1 cars were doing 11-12 lap stints. it was only the #2 audi that would sometimes get 1 extra lap in.

3. Setup for rain yes. Doesn't have anything to do with engine/torque. But this doesn't have to do with pitting at all. Another problem was how the #7 car chose to go onto intermediates first, and then had to pit again to go onto full wet tyres. That's just a strategy thing, not an issue with the car.

MustangSVT

As for best race drivers today, that honour goes to someone like Sebastien Loeb or Kimi Raikkonen. Most likely Loeb.

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Oh yes, rallying is the pinacle of driving skill, by far. Sports cars are about equal to open wheel for me, although Formula 1 requires a little bit more from the drivers.
Anyway, off topic.

About overheating: it did cause "much of a concern". This is what I read:

Not only was the 908 much more of a handful than the R10 in wet conditions, but the rain caused a recurrence of a problem that also blighted Peugeot's return to Le Mans last year. Almost as soon as rain fell, its drivers had to back off the revs to cope with overheating issues. That came as a complete surprise to the team.

"We went to Sebring and were able to run hard in very hot conditions," said Peugeot Sport team manager Serge Saulnier. "It was the same here, until it rained. The dirt and the rubber from the track mixed with the rain to make a kind of pâté that stuck to the radiators."

Each Peugeot pitted during hour 13 to have its radiator ducts cleaned, but there was no high-tech solution available. A high-pressure water hose was not enough to solve the problem, which meant that Peugeot was unable to reassert its performance advantage when the track briefly dried.


italic text taken from here: http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080616/FREE/815506733/1531/FREE


About the "wet setup" being also about the way the Peugeot engine delivers its power, I recall reading an interview with one of the Peugeot drivers saying that it became very hard to put the power down, under slippery conditions, because the car became very "brutal" (english is not my native language, so I just hope you all understand what I'm trying to say here) . Of course this can be solved tuning the suspension of the car, but I think that maybe, just maybe, the Peugeot engine (and the way it delivers power to the wheels) can be a litle less progressive than the Audi engine. With good grip, all goes well, without it ... it makes the car very difficult to drive.

But I'm just guessing here ...

I was pretty sure all 3 cars had to be wheeled in because of the heating problems. It was at least two of them. And then after the rain they had the problems again. So they had to waste time in the pits and probably couldn't push as hard either.

The problem with the #3 was caused by driver error.

The supposed overheating problems with the Peugeots were due to the build up of track debris in front of the radiators. Thats why they had the cars in to wash the rads out.

I got back late last night after a 14 hour drive to get home. I haven't got the time to read the 500+ posts that appeared in the week since I went away so all I'll say is that the race was mint, the atmosphere at the track as the Peugeot tried to close down the Audi at the end was great. Check out my pictures thread but give me 15 minutes or so to get the pictures on there. I've included some from out and about around the campsites etc to give a bit of atmosphere as if all you want to do is see pictures of the race cars you'd be better off on a motorsport.com or something like that.

Edit - I must be tired, how could I forget that we were looking at some Audis parked outside a hotel in Le Mans on Friday night jokingly saying "this must be the Audi hotel" when one of my mates noticed Frank Biela smoking a tab outside. He was a top bloke, posed for a few photos and gave as good as he got when we suggested driving a diesel was a bit wrong. Absolutley top bloke.

JohnBM01

So... what would be your reaction to what these two think of Tom Kristensen? Who do you think has the better argument?

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I think the cross discipline thing is a little overrated in today's world. I can understand it in the past when there were fewer events and less team obligations to deal with. Today, drivers have to do so much with the team they drive for, appearances at sponsor events, and are seemingly much more involved in team activities than they were in the past.

I do not really see how you cannot put Tom Kristensen in (about) the Top 10 Drivers of this era (I would really have to put more time and thought into it and I am not really willing to do that at the moment ). Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, and Sébastien Loeb would all have to be ahead of him and there are still plenty of others that would need consideration.

With that said, he has won a whole lot lately at Le Mans and because of that, I think you automatically have to put him at the top of the drivers of this era at Le Mans.

John's Debates! - Adding Appeal; What Did We Learn?; Test Drives; Crucial Corners?
You may respond to any or all of these. Le Mans brings a lot of talking points both in serious and casual points.

1.) The 24 Hours of Le Mans is the biggest race of the year for me. There's nothing like Le Mans. Speed Channel is the exclusive home for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. But to me, not enough is really done to get people excited and ready for Le Mans. What do you think can be done to help add more appeal to the 24 Hours of Le Mans without having to dumb it down to any ludicrous degree (for example: talking about Le Mans using NASCAR terminology (like "beatin' and bangin'")? What aspect(s) of the 24 Hours of Le Mans would you like to market to the general masses if you were trying to promote the race? Or is Le Mans too exclusive to be understood among casual fans?

Like SPEED did the All Star race, they should do that for the 24 Hrs. of Le Mans

2.) What did we learn as far as closed-top LMP1's vs. the open-top LMP1's? Does either kind of car have any sort of advantage over the other at Le Mans? Should all LMP1 cars be closed-top machines?
Closed tops vs. open tops should be an option. IMO the Domes and 908 did well.

3.) What car(s) from this year's race would you most want to drive or race if you could race ANY of the cars in this year's race?
RISI Competition (I can't spell the actual name) 430
Dome S102 (I absolutely love this car!)
Peugot 908 HDi FAP
Audi R10
Porsche RS Spyder
#009 Aston Martin DB9

4.) I would say that D'Arnage is the toughest corner on the entire Le Mans course. What do you think is the toughest corner on the track? Or do you agree with me that Arnage is toughest? I second.

5.) Tom Kristensen became the best-ever at Le Mans back in 2005. With this win this year, is it okay to say that Tom Kristensen is one of the best sportscar racers of our generation? What about best of all time? What about the best racer of any kind in any discipline of motorsport?
I believe he's one of the best drivers right now,but THE best driver? No.




Le Mans Discussion
Here is some material for discussion. Respond to all of these or whichever ones you wish.

1.) How do you evaluate this year's event? Was it one of the better races? Where would you rate this as the best Le Mans races?
In my span of Le Mans races I watched,this is my personal favorite. It reminded me of the 24 hrs. of Daytona two years ago that came down to the wire- but on a greater scale and BETTER.

2.) What manufacturer(s) or race constructor(s) would you most want to see at Le Mans with either a factory car or a customer car?I love Audi but at this race I rooted for Peugot. I always root for the underdog

3.) Describe Le Mans to those who may not be so educated or aware of this race.
24 hours. 200+mph. The race of all races.

4.) Peugeot posed a huge threat to the Audis until Peugeot has had troubles. Do you think anyone is to blame for Peugeot's performances? If so, who or what? If not, explain why they have no reason to be ashamed of anything.Yes and no. They have kinks,and there were situations that ended up exposing those kinks.

5.) Name your big winners and most disappointing losers from this year's race.
Big Winners:
Nicol M.- Somebody needs to give him an award. When the outlook looked bleak, he managed to give the Peugot team a sliver of hope and kept a car on slicks tame on a wet track. Major Kudos!

JohnBM01

Le Mans Discussion


2.) What manufacturer(s) or race constructor(s) would you most want to see at Le Mans with either a factory car or a customer car?

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I would love to see Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Ford in LMP1

JohnBM01

1.) The 24 Hours of Le Mans is the biggest race of the year for me. There's nothing like Le Mans. Speed Channel is the exclusive home for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. But to me, not enough is really done to get people excited and ready for Le Mans. What do you think can be done to help add more appeal to the 24 Hours of Le Mans without having to dumb it down to any ludicrous degree (for example: talking about Le Mans using NASCAR terminology (like "beatin' and bangin'")? What aspect(s) of the 24 Hours of Le Mans would you like to market to the general masses if you were trying to promote the race? Or is Le Mans too exclusive to be understood among casual fans?

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Better advertising by SPEED would help get some more viewers in. Better coverage times would work too. Unless you woke up on Saturday to watch the start of the race, you likely missed a lot of the coverage SPEED had. I watched the morning coverage on Saturday and a bit of the coverage later Saturday night, but really only watched about four-six (at most six and that is probably pushing it) hours of the race. I think getting people more interested in ALMS would also help get more people to watch the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

JohnBM01

2.) What did we learn as far as closed-top LMP1's vs. the open-top LMP1's? Does either kind of car have any sort of advantage over the other at Le Mans? Should all LMP1 cars be closed-top machines?

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It only makes sense that the closed-tops are going to be faster because of better aerodynamics. I really have no preference whether the cars are closed or open top, so long as each have the opportunity to be on equal footing rules wise.

JohnBM01

3.) What car(s) from this year's race would you most want to drive or race if you could race ANY of the cars in this year's race?

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I would like to drive the Risi Ferrari F430 GT, but only because it is a Ferrari and I may have a slight obsession problem when it comes to Ferraris. I would also like to drive the Porsche RS Spyder and Aston Martin DB9s.

JohnBM01

4.) I would say that D'Arnage is the toughest corner on the entire Le Mans course. What do you think is the toughest corner on the track? Or do you agree with me that Arnage is toughest?

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I guess if I was going with what I struggle with on GT4 it would be the Porsche curves.

JohnBM01

5.) Tom Kristensen became the best-ever at Le Mans back in 2005. With this win this year, is it okay to say that Tom Kristensen is one of the best sportscar racers of our generation? What about best of all time? What about the best racer of any kind in any discipline of motorsport?

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I have no problem saying Tom Kristensen is one of the best sports car racers of our generation. All time is a little different story because I do not know enough of the history some of the older drivers.

JohnBM01

1.) How do you evaluate this year's event? Was it one of the better races? Where would you rate this as the best Le Mans races?

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I enjoyed what I watched, but that is pretty easy to say considering I always enjoy watching the 24 Heures du Mans. Maybe. No answer.

JohnBM01

2.) What manufacturer(s) or race constructor(s) would you most want to see at Le Mans with either a factory car or a customer car?

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Any of the Japanese manufacturers would be nice to see since I never got the chance to see any of them at Le Mans.

JohnBM01

3.) Describe Le Mans to those who may not be so educated or aware of this race.

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Le Mans is one of the toughest tests in all of motorsports. Since the race last 24 hours, it is a test of engineering, driver fortitude, team fortitude, and the human spirit.

JohnBM01

4.) Peugeot posed a huge threat to the Audis until Peugeot has had troubles. Do you think anyone is to blame for Peugeot's performances? If so, who or what? If not, explain why they have no reason to be ashamed of anything.

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The car designers for not accounting for overheating problems. It is a design flaw. I could understand running smaller radiators for better aerodynamics; but the engineers need to design the car to be more easily accessible, i.e. make the radiators easier to get to and clean. They also need to work on how much time they spend in the pits, just look at what goes on between Corvette Racing and Aston Martin Racing. Those two teams go full out to get the faster possible stops.

JohnBM01

5.) Name your big winners and most disappointing losers from this year's race.

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Big winners: Audi is definitely one. Taking another overall victory can only add to their image. Aston Martin Racing beating Corvette Racing. Big achievement considering that was their first race of the year. Risi for getting a victory after going dry for the entire year.

Big losers: Peugeot . . . Peugeot . . . Peugeot. Easy enough.

So you don't have any big losers, TwinTurbos94? Let me answer my own debate and discussion questions.



Debate 1: Adding More Appeal to Le Mans Coverage
A challenge is posed with the world feed. Even still, I think the race can be marketed in a way that brings even casual fans together. It's usually said that sportscar racing isn't for everyone. Think of this as a challenge... how would you describe Le Mans to... elementary school kids? I think getting someone like Bob Varsha or Sam Posey would be great at marketing Le Mans to the masses. Someone with knowledge of the event.

Most of you know I wouldn't market crashes. Le Mans isn't known as a crash-fest. I would look at this like a drama or an award-winning book. Think about it- the race is like a 24-hour long drama for all the teams. Some are dealt cruel fate while others accompish the impossible. Market it like a movie, but not with all the Hollywood stuff.


Debate 2: Closed-Tops vs. Open-Tops
They have advantages in both fields. I reckon that closed-top cars have better aerodynamics with the lovely flow of air in turbulence. However, I wouldn't want to be in one on a hot day or in a monsoon (like last year's F1 Grand Prix of Japan). I can't really think of too much about open-top cars except not having to worry about using windshield wipers or feeling hotter than in a closed-top car. I don't really know about open-top cars to have any true differences of both car types.

Debate 3: What Cars I'd Want to Race
A few cars come to mind. The Epsilon Euskadi-Judd LMP1 machine is tops for me. It's a sensationally-designed car. * From a DNF'er to a finisher (at least I believe), that Aston Martin-Lola would also be sweet to at least drive. * You already know I'd love to race the Ferrari F430 GT2's. For a guy who doesn't have a license, I would be concerned about screwing up the Risi Ferraris. * The Aston Martin DBR9s and the unclassified Lamborghini Murciélago would be great to race as well. * Same goes for the Dome S102 and the Porsche RS Spyder.

Debate 4: Toughest Corner at Le Mans
Here's why I think it's Arnage. I will grant the other person that the entry into Indianapolis can be daunting. From my gaming experience, Arnage is such a crucial corner to me because of the angle it has. It's an acute angled-turn. A bit of a cross between a sharp corner and a hairpin. It's also pretty easy to stuff your car into the outside tire wall if you're not careful.

Debate 5: Tom Kristensen
I'm proud for Tom Kristensen in winning his eighth Le Mans outright. I wasn't going to expect "Tom Kristensen is the best ever." "Fanboys" would call him the best ever without considering past greats like Derek Bell, Jacky Ickx, Graham Hill, all among many others. Just the win percentage for Kristensen at Le Mans makes him stand out to me. When he won #7, he got seven Le Mans victories in 10 outright victory attempts. You need a great car with a great team and a greater team of drivers. I wouldn't be sure if Kristensen could jump from Audi to Peugeot and give Peugeot some Le Mans victories. The man is impressive to me. I love him as one of my newest motorsports heroes.





Discussion 1: Judging This Year's Race
The race was a victory for me as I was able to watch and enjoy a lot of the Le Mans race, including the early morning (local time) action as well as the action at sunrise (local time). It's the first Le Mans I've seen the final stages of in my eight years of watching this great race. And staying up was worth it as Peugeot was closing in on the Audis. I don't think there's a Le Mans I actually hate because I'm always excited and happy for Le Mans.

Discussion 2: Stepping up to Bat
I have a childish imagination. Let me work my childish visions. Nissan would be great to see if they make their GT-R available as a GT racing machine. Only thing against it is that it would be in a depleted GT1 class. So what they may do is make a GTP car with styling cues from the GT-R. Think of it as a mid-engined Skyline with rear-wheel drive and tons of downforce. It could be Nissan's first closed-top protype since the Nissan R390 GT1. Or if that's not the last time, then certainly the first since the R92CP.

BMW will return to sportscar racing with those new M3 GTRs. I can't wait to see those. I'd love to see the Prototype Technology Group have their familiar white, black, and orange colors like in the late 1990s.

Ferrari would probably have to follow the same path of a GTP Nissan if they want to make a hot prototype based on the 599. Ferrari cna be represented in the GT ranks and prototype ranks. The longshot is that they make a successor to the 333SP. I would LOVE to see that longshot happen... though it's a longshot.

Here's something that would be pretty crazy- imagine if Holden or Ford Australia had a customer race car chassis to dump in a nice engine. Australian representation at Le Mans would be great to see. Or what if Holden and/or Ford Australia created their very own race car? Notice a trend of GTP prototypes in this answer? Well, I can imagine styling from the latest Ford Falcon into a competitive GTP race car. I could imagine Holden getting together with a European firm to help make a Holden race car. A Courage or Lola (as in the Aston Martin-powered Lola) chassis would be interesting for these two Aussie makes to showcase themselves at Le Mans and in other sportscar racing events.


Discussion 3: Describe Le Mans.
The 24 Hours of Le Mans is a test of endurance while negotiating several turns and obstacles. The turns are not just relegated to the corners on the track. I'm talking about the corners in race fortune. Cars will get dirty and messed up, but all for a surpreme cause- total victory at Le Mans. There are lots of big races in lots of major race series. This is where the best manufacturers and race constructors stage their finest machinery (other than F1 cars) where everything has to endure. Victory is what they want, but it's never handed to them. Nothing is guaranteed except an all-out race for glory and total victory. It's the ultimate world stage for racers and teams that want to establish themselves worldwide. Day to night to day on Father's Day weekend. Time to see who can last 24 hours on a legendary and punishing race track in a punishing race.

Discussion 4: Peugeot Finger-Pointing
Peugeot has nothing really to be ashamed of. They did their best and didn't manage to win. Peugeot will learn from their mistakes and make a much better car or put in a much better effort for next year's race should they be invited again. I guess the tire choices late in the race were strange. Peugeot did all they could. No one really is to blame for Peugeot's tough luck.

Discussion 5: Winners and Losers
I mentioned my winners and losers in Post #401 ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3058699&postcount=401 ). Have a look.



That would be all from me. Care to chat more about Le Mans 2008?

JohnBM01

So... what would be your reaction to what these two think of Tom Kristensen? Who do you think has the better argument?

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I think they have very valid points - Kristensen won mainly by being in the right car with the right teammates.

It's also quite noticeable that the other four drivers of the #2 Audi and #7 Peugeot don't get much mentioning - sure, Kristensen and Minnassian did a grand job, but McNish was just as fast, if not faster than Kristensen - and even Dindo Capelli, the supposed "weak link", drove consistent, fast times.. Pedro Lamy and Stephen Sarrazzin drove amazing times in the #8 Peugoet. The

JohnBM01

Debate 2: Closed-Tops vs. Open-Tops
They have advantages in both fields. I reckon that closed-top cars have better aerodynamics with the lovely flow of air in turbulence. However, I wouldn't want to be in one on a hot day or in a monsoon (like last year's F1 Grand Prix of Japan). I can't really think of too much about open-top cars except not having to worry about using windshield wipers or feeling hotter than in a closed-top car. I don't really know about open-top cars to have any true differences of both car types.

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In a hot day, the Coupe's air-conditioning would make it a better place than the oven of an open car - it may sound odd that the open car is hot, but it's usually the case with F1 drivers as well: It may be open, but most of the air is designed to go over the car anyway. As for rain, why would you want to be out in the open, wet car?

JohnBM01

Debate 4: Toughest Corner at Le Mans
Here's why I think it's Arnage. I will grant the other person that the entry into Indianapolis can be daunting. From my gaming experience, Arnage is such a crucial corner to me because of the angle it has. It's an acute angled-turn. A bit of a cross between a sharp corner and a hairpin. It's also pretty easy to stuff your car into the outside tire wall if you're not careful.

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But being such a sharp right-hander, it also changes very little over the course of the race, and is pretty basic in itself. The real challenge for a race-driver, I would assume, are the medium-high speed corners which require you to brake or lift under cornering - these corners would change far more when the weather changes, or even as the rubber sets in on the racing-line. These corners are where the big time is gained or lost, in any racing discipline.

VashTheStampede

I think the cross discipline thing is a little overrated in today's world. I can understand it in the past when there were fewer events and less team obligations to deal with. Today, drivers have to do so much with the team they drive for, appearances at sponsor events, and are seemingly much more involved in team activities than they were in the past.

I do not really see how you cannot put Tom Kristensen in (about) the Top 10 Drivers of this era (I would really have to put more time and thought into it and I am not really willing to do that at the moment ). Michael Schumacher, Ayrton Senna, and Sébastien Loeb would all have to be ahead of him and there are still plenty of others that would need consideration.

With that said, he has won a whole lot lately at Le Mans and because of that, I think you automatically have to put him at the top of the drivers of this era at Le Mans.

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You can't call the cross-discipline thing in today's world because so many drivers have exclusivity clauses. For me, for a driver to be great, he has to be consistently fantastic, your "go-to" guy, and he has to accompany this with flashes of other-worldliness; times where you sit open-mouthed at what he's just done.

On those grounds, I'm not sure I know enough of Kristensen to say that he classifies for the other-worldliness, but he would certainly be my go-to guy in a sportscar. And given that McNish is also in that category, the #2 Audi was pretty well crewed, I would say. I think that next year, Marco Werner should be promoted to that car.

Next year, there wont be a factory effort for the R10. Audi have already stated that they will stick with their three-year plans. They did the same with the R8.
Rumour has it, that Audi are looking at a GT1 effort, wich IMO would be very nice. Audi RS-R8 V12 TDI sounds really cool!
It likely though, that Audi will keep most of their driverlineup for Le Mans, except for Biela I think, whos services are probably to end as of this Le Mans.

I do agree on Werner though. Kristensen, McNish and Werner would be an amazing lineup for any car!

kjb

I would love to see Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, and Ford in LMP1

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Toyota to me seems like they would take the s102 platform put either a updated JZE engine or a V-10 and run it.

Merecedes would be cool too. Something tells me if they do run in LMP 1 they would go diesel too. Which would make an interesting bout.

Ford even though with minimal success in LMP1 a car heavy on aerodymanics with a racing version of the eco-boost engine with Coates CSV's would give diesels a run for it's money.

Team666

Next year, there wont be a factory effort for the R10. Audi have already stated that they will stick with their three-year plans. They did the same with the R8.
Rumour has it, that Audi are looking at a GT1 effort, wich IMO would be very nice. Audi RS-R8 V12 TDI sounds really cool!
It likely though, that Audi will keep most of their driverlineup for Le Mans, except for Biela I think, whos services are probably to end as of this Le Mans.

I do agree on Werner though. Kristensen, McNish and Werner would be an amazing lineup for any car!

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I thought Audi would come with an new car. Somewhere in his site someone mentioned that they would come with an closed cockpit car.

As for rain, why would you want to be out in the open, wet car?

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because as long as your moving, the rain doesnt come into the cockpit? plus when the windshield is fogging up, all youve to do is crack your helmet visor open?

Debate 1: Adding More Appeal to Le Mans Coverage

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id love to see complete coverage on free tv. cable isnt available here and im out voted on getting satalite tv. and my internet is too slow and unstable to stream tv/video/sound/music.

Debate 2: Closed-Tops vs. Open-Tops

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regardless of advantages the cars have, as long as theyve a mix of both and competing equally then its all good.

Debate 3: What Cars I'd Want to Race

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audi r10 or the acura arx-b if am allowed any lmp that currently races.

Debate 4: Toughest Corner at Le Mans

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i dont think i can compare driving the real thing to any version on any game/console.

Discussion 2: Stepping up to Bat

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do you really want me to list every manufacter id like to see racing???

Discussion 3: Describe Le Mans

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some of the hotst cars from production to prototypes racing in an envoriment that could change at any moment where anything that can happen usually will at speeds that range from 170mph to over 200 mph depending on the class.