FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

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In the grand scheme of things, 30 fps mirrors aren't exactly a big a deal. It doesn't detract from the experience in any way as you only glance at them every now and then.
 
My God, I go off for a day, come back, 20 new pages and this Vandalizer guy come out of nowhere to present the icing on the cake :)

What a douchebag :lol:

I have just finished initial playtrough of the demo and came here to talk a bit about the physics and handling - the most improved detail over all previous Forza games.

I am using Fanatec GT2/CSP combo and I have to give a great congratulation to guys that coded implementation of XID force feedback because this time a magic is clearly done.

For the first time on the Xbox console you can experience a fully saturated force feedback feel, with proper feel of tire-snap, tire-thereshold and weight-thereshold and have great idea about what the mass of the vehicle and engine-torque are doing to the lateral-axis of the movement.

Since actual implementation of force feedback effect was always my greatest problem with all driving games on X360 - where Forza 3 was miles ahead of all other games, but still very lacking compared to level of force feedback implementation on PC/PS3 games - I can say how XID coders managed to almost catch up with HID standards.

It is still not detailed, informative or saturated as HID force feedback, but Forza 4 - on Simulation setting and without any assist - is the best ever experience of FF effects on X360 console.

Of course, new handling model is second-to-none - especially the feel of tire-thereshold - and I must say this game will finally allow that physics of Forza series can be fully experienced without constraints of previous iterations of the game.

Magnificent job there and after this experience I really find how any further debate over this particular subject - which is probably the only *real* subject worth debating over both series - is ceased to exist.

Thus, from this moment, Forza series is 100% pure driving experience on the proper FF wheel and I am very happy for all the fans of the series - and Thomas from Fanatec, who also probably helped a lot to T10 guys in this implementation - that force feedback and overall feel of driving is now 100% on-par to other simulations.

On another hand, despite announcements how Simulation mode will allow for the 100% "free of assists" driving, I can say it is just not the case. Noticeable amount of assistance is still here, although not even close to level presented in Forza 3. Steering becomes non-linear instantly when you start to loose the control over car, and the Magic Hand of Forza Fairies™ is still here. If you want to deliberately spin the car, you really have to make an effort - and spinning a F458 with all assists off in full-acceleration should be a given. It is not unfortunately.

I really hope that full game will allow that all assists can really be disabled for good, or that 900-wheel community will become vocal enough in order to T10 give us decent amount of control of the car in some update. So, one great thing regarding all this "VS" nonsense have been tackled in my book, and I have high hopes that assisted linear-steering will be addressed in some patches or such.
 
That's excellent to hear, Amar 👍

Of course, it's also frustrating, because I really do want the full experience, but I know I'm waiting a bit before getting a wheel, as buying the system plus the LCE and XBL is enough at first for me. It's frustrating in the sense I'm impatient :P.
 
amar212
My God, I go off for a day, come back, 20 new pages and this Vandalizer guy come out of nowhere to present the icing on the cake :)

What a douchebag :lol:

I have just finished initial playtrough of the demo and came here to talk a bit about the physics and handling - the most improved detail over all previous Forza games.

I am using Fanatec GT2/CSP combo and I have to give a great congratulation to guys that coded implementation of XID force feedback because this time a magic is clearly done.

For the first time on the Xbox console you can experience a fully saturated force feedback feel, with proper feel of tire-snap, tire-thereshold and weight-thereshold and have great idea about what the mass of the vehicle and engine-torque are doing to the lateral-axis of the movement.

Since actual implementation of force feedback effect was always my greatest problem with all driving games on X360 - where Forza 3 was miles ahead of all other games, but still very lacking compared to level of force feedback implementation on PC/PS3 games - I can say how XID coders managed to almost catch up with HID standards.

It is still not detailed, informative or saturated as HID force feedback, but Forza 4 - on Simulation setting and without any assist - is the best ever experience of FF effects on X360 console.

Of course, new handling model is second-to-none - especially the feel of tire-thereshold - and I must say this game will finally allow that physics of Forza series can be fully experienced without constraints of previous iterations of the game.

Magnificent job there and after this experience I really find how any further debate over this particular subject - which is probably the only *real* subject worth debating over both series - is ceased to exist.

Thus, from this moment, Forza series is 100% pure driving experience on the proper FF wheel and I am very happy for all the fans of the series - and Thomas from Fanatec, who also probably helped a lot to T10 guys in this implementation - that force feedback and overall feel of driving is now 100% on-par to other simulations.

On another hand, despite announcements how Simulation mode will allow for the 100% "free of assists" driving, I can say it is just not the case. Noticeable amount of assistance is still here, although not even close to level presented in Forza 3. Steering becomes non-linear instantly when you start to loose the control over car, and the Magic Hand of Forza Fairies™ is still here. If you want to deliberately spin the car, you really have to make an effort - and spinning a F458 with all assists off in full-acceleration should be a given. It is not unfortunately.

I really hope that full game will allow that all assists can really be disabled for good, or that 900-wheel community will become vocal enough in order to T10 give us decent amount of control of the car in some update. So, one great thing regarding all this "VS" nonsense have been tackled in my book, and I have high hopes that assisted linear-steering will be addressed in some patches or such.
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Topgear and 5th Gear mentioned that the 458 was remarkably easy to drift. Have you tried other cars? Like the 599GTO? I am hoping its the car, not the handling model.
 
They just played a massivley long Forza 4 ad on my sports channel.

It was the Kanye west one, and wow the gameplay videos look pretty crap graphics wise compared to GT5. The contrast with the Autovista shots is plain stupid and is false advertising really as most people who don't know better would be expecting that kind of quality throughout.

I'm gunna rent this game for my mates xbox, but I'm still not buying my own xbox :D
 
Worse than ps2 graphics?

Thanks for the warning Tizzla, your information is invaluable.

Edit.

GT did the same with there promo videos.
People saw premium cars and would of expected that quality through out.
 
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TiZzla
They just played a massivley long Forza 4 ad on my sports channel.

It was the Kanye west one, and wow the gameplay videos look pretty crap graphics wise compared to GT5. The contrast with the Autovista shots is plain stupid and is false advertising really as most people who don't know better would be expecting that kind of quality throughout.

I'm gunna rent this game for my mates xbox, but I'm still not buying my own xbox :D
Click to expand...

I say sue them. Yeah, and then start an email petition, then follow up with an online boycott! How dare them try to market a game and show off Autovista and gameplay vodeos...wth are T10 thinking!?!?

Spagetti69
Worse than ps2 graphics?

Thanks for the warning Tizzla, your information is invaluable.

Edit.

GT did the same with there promo videos.
People saw premium cars and would of expected that quality through out.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am glad I was warned about the horrible graphics. I was just spared almost having to play this game on release...whew...bullet dodged.

On a real note, yeah, its called advertising. You think everyone at McDonalds is happy, smiling, and cheerful? No? FALSE advertising then! Every game promotes itself in the best light. GT5 included.
 
James1436
Topgear and 5th Gear mentioned that the 458 was remarkably easy to drift. Have you tried other cars? Like the 599GTO? I am hoping its the car, not the handling model.
Click to expand...

We didnt get the 599GTO in the demo. The M5 is a bit more difficult than the 458 but not quite as difficult as I was expecting.
 
Gone for one and a half day, and there's eleven new pages in this thread, and about the only post really worth reading was amar's review (nice read, by the way).

I mean, I really do have low standards for debates and threads like this one, but this really went downhill.

People popping in here and calling one of the games crap because they didn't like the TV commercial... This is just... Ah well, you get my point. We get a review of the demo, about how greatly the Force Feedback and the physics have improved, and that's what's getting talked about.

I guess every review on the planned could hail the game as the second coming of Ayrton Senna, best physics ever and all that, and some people would just stand there and go "LOL TV add was crap!".

Ah, well, whatever. I'm glad I'm not the only one who was impressed by FM4's physics and Force Feedback, so that's something, at least.
 
Geez calm down you guys,

I just cracked up when I saw that ad as it showed me that F4 is still just an upgraded F3.

Some of the stuff I've seen in this forum is really impressive but I'm interested to see If it's going to be better than GT5. And as far as the graphics go it's still not as good.

I'll admit I'm a biased GT5 fan and I like to poke fun at xbox in general which is pretty easy with its AA batteries in the controllers and the RROD.

But wow guys calm down. This is a Forza vs GT thread. If I posted this in the Forza general discussion I'd expect to get this response but here people give their opinions on which is better.

I'm not some troll hating on Forza for no reason, I've been following F4 for a long time and it's a great looking game and I wish GT had some of the cars and upgrade choices.

But I saw an ad, trying to convince me that F4 is the most amazing thing in the world and I laughed.
 
^ Thats an ignorant thing to say as far as it still being the same as FM3. FM 2 and 3 were ver similar in almost every aspect. FM4 is completely different. Until you actually have it on your TV and play it then your opinion is completely invalid.

And yes you are hating for no reason seeing as how you havent even seen the demo in person let alone played it.

Basing an opinion of game based off what you saw in a commercial is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.
 
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Don't want to get in any arguement but i would say one thing that as game GT5 was a big let down for me but as a driving sim it was flawless best out there. :)..


Personally, I enjoyed Forza 3 more than GT5.


I just cracked up when I saw that ad as it showed me that F4 is still just an upgraded F3.
Click to expand...

No sir.One can easily see FM4 looks much better than FM3 ....Don't forget FM3 is just a 2yr old game.


And as far as the graphics go it's still not as good.
Click to expand...

Its right up there with GT5 in graphics...Environments already look much better in FM4..
 
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All I know is, after being a series long fan of GT, I have never pre-ordered it, nor bought a collectors edition of it.
In fact I have only pre-ordered one game in the past (TES Oblivion), and regretted doing that has I saw 50 copies in store before I recieved my pre-order, lol, and I have only bought one collectors edition ever (Halo Reach), because it was on a %50 off sale, and I liked the goodies, having seen a friends.
However, after getting my hands on the Demo, and after much research, of various sites including this one, Forza 4 LCE is now officially on pre-order has of 10 minutes ago.
Ohh, I still love my GT series, and always will, and certainly will continue to buy it, but Turn 10 must be doing something right if a guy like me not only breaks his "no pre-orders" rule, but willingly does so while investing in a collectors edition that not even my long time favorite GT series could ever tempt me into buying.
And on top of that, I'm bouncing off the walls like a ten year old on Christmass Eve over it, driving the wife nuts in the process (i'm 36 years old for christophers sake, lol), and that hasn't happened for a video game, or much of anything else, in a loooooong time.
Does that make FM4 the better game? For me, we'll see when my copy gets here, but in the end I think it's subjective to the individual. There is no one "correct" awnser that can be applied to the world population has a whole.
I do find the discussion entertaining though, and thanks all (even the trolls) for the opinions, has they helped me greatly in my choice of action.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
That is true it seems, but I've only seen codemasters really use dynamic weather, PD needs to work on their weather system. I was surprised it hadn't really improved from GT4.
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GT's dynamic weather system is amazing dude. It is clearly one of the best, if not the best this generation. There are different intensities of rainfall, and even after the rain has stopped the track is still damp depending on how long and hard it was raining. The day and night cycles are simply some of the best lighting I have seen in a racing game and the icing on the cake is snow. Yes it does not snow often but I remember it was like December and I was on the Nurburgring online on free run and it started snowing .
 
NA
All I know is, after being a series long fan of GT, I have never pre-ordered it, nor bought a collectors edition of it.
In fact I have only pre-ordered one game in the past (TES Oblivion), and regretted doing that has I saw 50 copies in store before I recieved my pre-order, lol, and I have only bought one collectors edition ever (Halo Reach), because it was on a %50 off sale, and I liked the goodies, having seen a friends.
However, after getting my hands on the Demo, and after much research, of various sites including this one, Forza 4 LCE is now officially on pre-order has of 10 minutes ago.
Ohh, I still love my GT series, and always will, and certainly will continue to buy it, but Turn 10 must be doing something right if a guy like me not only breaks his "no pre-orders" rule, but willingly does so while investing in a collectors edition that not even my long time favorite GT series could ever tempt me into buying.
And on top of that, I'm bouncing off the walls like a ten year old on Christmass Eve over it, driving the wife nuts in the process (i'm 36 years old for christophers sake, lol), and that hasn't happened for a video game, or much of anything else, in a loooooong time.
Does that make FM4 the better game? For me, we'll see when my copy gets here, but in the end I think it's subjective to the individual. There is no one "correct" awnser that can be applied to the world population has a whole.
I do find the discussion entertaining though, and thanks all (even the trolls) for the opinions, has they helped me greatly in my choice of action.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear you're excited. I certainly am.

Looking forward to seeing what GT5 brings to the table with Spec 2.0 as well. I don't think it'll add many new cars or tracks, since that's DLC's territory. But perhaps refined graphics and physics, tweaked experience and cash rewards for races, some new race events, some standard cars upgraded to premium, and maybe dynamic weather and time of day brought to more tracks.
 
GT6mebe
However I think you saying Forza 4 has the better cockpit modelling in which case you would be wrong.
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I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree here:



And BTW, the last time I checked, the fuel gauges, digital clocks, etc... didn't work in GT5 as they do in Forza 3...
 
amar212
It is still not detailed, informative or saturated as HID force feedback, but Forza 4 - on Simulation setting and without any assist - is the best ever experience of FF effects on X360 console.

I really hope that full game will allow that all assists can really be disabled for good, or that 900-wheel community will become vocal enough in order to T10 give us decent amount of control of the car in some update. So, one great thing regarding all this "VS" nonsense have been tackled in my book, and I have high hopes that assisted linear-steering will be addressed in some patches or such.
Click to expand...

Do you still have Drift set to 5? I tried that this morning, it robs a lot of FFB feel for me.. I have Drift 'off'..

And I'm slightly the opposite, I think XID has more merit then HID, it can have rumble at the same time as FFB, and just comparing GT5 to FM3/4 (Since this is what the thread is about) GT5 feels exceedingly numb from a 'tyres' perspective, hell, even iRacing/Race07 all have a slight numbness in this regard, something FM3/4 seem to have licked, you can really feel the grip so well.. Where I find HID seems to unilaterally be better is in track bumps etc.. whether this is protocol dependant or just developer dependant I don't know, but it's one thing I think FM3/4 is just OK at.. not great.

And the 900 degree steering, I tried it this morning, I see why you want Drift set at '5', to make it uber quick, but it feels really rubbish to me, so false, the drift setting robs all essential feedback, I think you get much quicker/better/more involving control at 270, but I totally understand some people are about the 900 degrees, so not knocking it.
And yes, the non-lineariy (Which curiously is inverse to conventional wisdom, faster in centre then at the ends) really is a weird choice, I hope we have a setting for this, everyone wants something different, me I actually do prefer 1:1 direct steering the Fanatec wheels have great control and smoothness and I feel more connected this way..

I kind of also agree with the rest of the physics, I love the feel of the cars, but being critical, the tractive grip level feels a little high on the 458, it's easy to get it oversteering most of the time, but occasionally, hooked up on a corner at high speed in 4th, you can floor it and if you break traction, rather then oversteering wildly, it kind of understeers with it.. Not totally what my brain expects..

Saying all that, I popped in the M5 rivals mode and wow, that is on a knife edge, it oversteers at will, breaks traction really easily, it's a bit of an animal, much harder then the 458..

And for the sake of comparison, even with a few foibles (as all games have), I think FM4 is absolutely the best experience in physics on a console by a fair margin now, the whole package is pretty decent, not perfect, but it gets a lot of stuff really right, the weight transfer, the progression to/from traction under a mixture of conditions seems well done, the collisions are really good, and you can really feel when you have it all right, and it's very obviously relayed via FFB when you haven't.. bar some input foibles, and possibly some tweak tractive grip levels, this should be well received IMO.. I hope we don't get swamped with the inevitable pointing out of minor issues s if they are game breaking..
 
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SparksBCN
I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree here:



And BTW, the last time I checked, the fuel gauges, digital clocks, etc... didn't work in GT5 as they do in Forza 3...
Click to expand...


Im sorry but that is totally incorrect. Forza 3, known to many forza players had appalling gauges...even simple stuff like bhp did not work. GT5 has much more gauges working. The clocks work in real time but are not the right time thats it. The gauges also indicate when headlights are on, handbrake, wet conditions etc. Also the poor modelling of some cockpits....

 
SparksBCN
I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree here:



And BTW, the last time I checked, the fuel gauges, digital clocks, etc... didn't work in GT5 as they do in Forza 3...
Click to expand...



Yeah, no doubt FM4 nails the cockpits. I am sure GT6 will up the ante though.
 
OldF@rt
Out of interest, how would you rate Shift 2 under these criteria? (I assume you'd be using the Xbox one as I understand it doesn't have the lag problem).
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Remember, the intent of my top 10 list isn't to "rate" my racing sims of choice. To me there isn't any point in trying to determine which racing sim is better than the other - that is totally subjective.

My top ten list is the criteria I would use to determine which racing sim will earn my attention at a particular point in time (fall of 2010, spring of 2010, fall of 2011, etc.). Shift 2, as I favor "racing" sims, is great even with all of the bugs. I think S2U fit many of the criteria on my top ten.

OP: FM vs GT - thread invites a war but most posts mean nothing to me (too subjective). What matters is which racing sim will provide an "immersive" virtual racing experience in the fall of 2011. Forza 4 looks like it will do just that 👍

TiZzla
They just played a massivley long Forza 4 ad on my sports channel.

It was the Kanye west one, and wow the gameplay videos look pretty crap graphics wise compared to GT5. The contrast with the Autovista shots is plain stupid and is false advertising really as most people who don't know better would be expecting that kind of quality throughout.

I'm gunna rent this game for my mates xbox, but I'm still not buying my own xbox :D
Click to expand...

You blew it... no one will take you serious with this post :dunce:

SparksBCN
I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree here:



And BTW, the last time I checked, the fuel gauges, digital clocks, etc... didn't work in GT5 as they do in Forza 3...
Click to expand...


My vote is for Forza 👍 BTW, when I saw the first Forza 4 cockpit videos I thought I was watching Shift 2. That's a very good thing in my opinion as that is one area the Shift 2 excelled. GT5 is very good, in some of the cars (premiums :) ), but I think Forza 4 looks more immersive 👍
 
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^ Wow, the more I see the more I am REALLY looking forward to release day!

IMHO though, this should have been posted in the Forza video thread for the benefit of the Forza enthusiests without someone trying to pick it apart.

EDIT: Hotspitta, what happen to the other 3 videos?
 
OldF@rt
Out of interest, how would you rate Shift 2 under these criteria? (I assume you'd be using the Xbox one as I understand it doesn't have the lag problem).
Click to expand...

FuzzyFassbender
My vote is for Forza 👍 BTW, when I saw the first Forza 4 cockpit videos I thought I was watching Shift 2. That's a very good thing in my opinion as that is one area the Shift 2 excelled. GT5 is very good, in some of the cars (premiums :) ), but I think Forza 4 looks more immersive 👍
Click to expand...

Yeah. Although this video doesnt really show the best comparision, it does show how similar they are. I do think T10 has taken some cues from S2 on the cockpit "feel". Notice the font and positions of the hud numbers?

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?vide...ch?v=d4GPO2wNCr8&start2=0&authorName=Skruller

And I agree its a good thing.
 

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