FM Vs GT - Discussion Thread (read the first post before you post)

Discussion in 'Forza Motorsport 4' started by Scaff, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. Zer0

    Zer0 (Banned)

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    I don't know, that's because I ask. I have not seen any study in GT5 about what happened in the GTA and I have not seen any concern after (contrary to the infamous "sticky grass"), except by the people that defend FM to justify its unrealistic grass. So I'm not sure if that affects to all drivetrains, all tyre type, all aids, all speeds, all curve angles, etc and to what extend is realistic in real life and can be recreated in the game, and to what extend becomes unrealistic given the situation. It's not that can't be seen in real life, so my doubts regarding to at what extend that "exploit" is unrealistic.




    I'm not ignoring your opinion is just that I don't need a perfectly recreated situation, just a better or more realistic situation "than" to defend what game is more realistic in there. I prefer facts over opinions. So is because in the past and given your opinion did ask for one of your famous GT vs FM vids simulating this:



    Is not that you never have jumped to defend forza. ;)
     
  2. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    You have not seen any concern about that kind of exploit outside of GT/FM discussions? I guess you must have not bothered with the GTA threads over the years then, given that off-track exploits have been a rather heated topic of concern for just about every GTA, to the point that the US GTA was amended one year (with the addition of penalty cones) to patch it out. Given that I would say that even PD have issues about how cars react off track.

    Look here's one that took all of 10 seconds to find:

    https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=252147&highlight=academy+corner+cutting

    You also seem to be saying that you believe that one of the two driven wheels on grass in a car with an open diff would allow you to gain speed? Please describe the dynamics of exactly how that would occur in reality, not using videos but explain actually how that would occur with an open diff. Then for fun let us know what effect an LSD would have on it and the circumstances that would be needed to allow you to increase speed (if at all possible) under these circumstances.

    In other words back your claim up with some facts.
    As for sticky grass, while it is annoying in single-player (and I don't think you will find anyone disagreeing) its actually works well enough on-line to help discourage corner-cutting, but is not substitute for a true penalty/flag system (and is arguably no worse than the throttle cut time penalties GT has used).


    Well given that neither of them are more or less realistic off-track then I wonder why you jump straight to GT's defence?


    Do you honestly expect anyone to take that seriously given your track record of using almost nothing but ill-informed opinion?


    Tell you what given your new found love of facts over opinion you can do it.

    Now you do seem to want to revisit unanswered questions, so maybe I will take a look at the ones you still have to explain, I believe quite a few exist.

    I've jumped to defend and criticise both series over the years, doing so with evidence and tests that can be repeated by anyone who wishes to, you have (on the whole) posted misleading videos (from the wrong versions of Forza), changed the definition of terms or simply made up ones to suit your own needs or spouted inaccurate bollocks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  3. Tornado

    Tornado

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    Very interesting. Literally dozens of discussions where you have posted complete nonsense and then walked away from the threads in question entirely when called on it, with your reasoning ultimately being that you do not have time to back up your own arguments, yet you seemingly pulled that chestnut from the depths.



    Nevermind you only initially brought up the video in that thread to take attention away from the video you tried to use to make an assertion for (wait for it) how grass is modelled in GT5:

    What's GT5's framerate in the rain?
    How do rear engine cars respond upon throttle input?
    What are the differences between a regular Lexus LFA and an LFA Nurburgring?
    How do you get 5.1 surround sound out of a white/red RCA connection?
    How does a glitched version of a car represent GT5's "true" sound environment?
    How do CRT TVs work?


    All things that I personally (dunno about anyone else) would like to get some clarification on the "facts" therein.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
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  4. Imari

    Imari

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    The sticky grass in FM is unrealistic, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist in the real world.

    People don't go charging full throttle across the grass in real life, because half the time it comes with a serving of fiery death. People do it in game because the worst that can happen is you have to listen to the "bonk" sound effect again.

    It's one of the parts of the game that is clearly there for gameplay reasons and not for realism. Pointing out that it's unrealistic is like pointing out that Coke contains a lot of sugar. It's supposed to be like that.

    Now, there's possibly better gameplay solutions to that problem, but stuff like flags and realistic penalties are understandably complex. To the point that I don't know of a game that does them well.
     
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  5. kekke2000

    kekke2000 Premium

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    F1 games does it very good (by which I mean realistic). Online gameplay is often very poor if you don't start with 100% serious drivers. But to play co-op championship you drive with 2 drivers and the rest of the field AI works great!
     
  6. McLaren

    McLaren Premium

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    That's beyond the point.

    You judged the entire physics engine on a cheat-deterrent.
    You knocked Forza's physics engine because it slows you down if you try to cut a corner & deemed GT more realistic. But, when GT's physic engine can't even model basic physics like how a car behaves during a burnout & Forza does, it gets a pass.

    BTW, it actually is. Standing start races should simulate proper launches on cars, yet because GT can't do that, you can just mash the throttle & go straight forward where as in real life, the driver would realistically be put in a situation of smashing into a car next to him.
    And it keeps going up....
    Too bad this is nothing to judge the game on when you're going to let GT get another pass at having a boring single player as well, mainly thanks to the lack of events & grinding required.
     
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  7. Scaff

    Scaff Staff Emeritus

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    An interesting article regarding the GT Academy, which I post as its been claimed a number of times (in a number of threads) that the GTA is 'proof' that GT is a more realistic series.

    http://www.digitalspy.com/tech/news...ideo.html?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co

    Most of which backs up my belief that GT could be replaced by just about any sim and the same results would still be seen at the end, and that the attitude, fitness and determination of the drivers are the key factors in all of this.

    Now don't get me wrong I applaud Sony, PD and Nissan fro the Academy, but its worth as a project doesn't make GT more realistic.
     
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  8. hyyperactive

    hyyperactive

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    I think the differences between gt5 and forza 4 are too big and the titles too different just to say which is better. Which is better depends what you want from a racing game. I bought xbox360 just to drive forza 3/4 just like I bought ps3 just to drive gt5. So I've played both games enough to have an opinion on both of them. Both have strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Sometimes the other is just kxzillion times better than the other one, sometimes both are just different. Overall I feel gt5 definitely lacks innovation while forza 4 is much more eager to experiment and add new things.

    Neither of them is a sim. Just when you look at the setup of the car both are extremely simplified versions of the real sims. In gt5 you can't even adjust tire pressures. There is no ground effects because the ride height doesn't effect downforce. And so forth. And this is all just fine. For the type of racing games both forza and gt games are just fine. I don't think making the physics "sim-detailed" and challenging in gt5 or f4 would actually be beneficial for either game. If you enjoy adjusting the rake, springs, dampers, wings and tire pressures just to get your car to ride at ideal ground clearence then go play iracing or rfactor 1/2 instead. If you like both play both.

    In the end the which physics you like more is more about taste. Forza cars generally are more slippery, more gradual and less sudden, less precise but also more alive, the cars can be rotated nicely and the body movement is good. But also at times the cars feel like there is some driving aid on you can't turn off. Also in forza I feel I get more steering lag or input lag than with gt5 if I use the bonnet view (and I use the bonnet view exclusively in both games, in sims I use cockpit view always). In gt5 the cockpit view has horrible input lag too but the bonnet view is good.

    In gt5 you get more abrupt, more sudden changes in car handling and most cars have huge amounts of understeer when stock. Kerbs and bumps barely have effect on your driving but the cars are also more precise to drive despite the cars being really really difficult to get to rotate into turns. The cars can be adjusted to rotate better by using softer compounds on the front which makes the cars come more alive and neutral when going into turns and under braking. Getting the car to go into four wheel slides and getting the car to feel alive and less nervous at the same time can take some time when adjusting the cars.

    Overall I prefer the gt5 feeling better. Mostly because with gt5 I get less steering lag. In forza3 and 4 there is just something wrong or broken when I try to use steering wheel. It just feels bad. In gt5 I never have those problems. But overall I feel the difference which you like more is a lot about how you want your car to drive and feel. If you put racing softs on every car you like then you are going to like the "better than f1" levels of grip in gt5 better than the more closer to real maximum grip levels of forza. If you are prepared to use more moderate tire compounds then it really just comes down to which type of feel you prefer.

    Of course the tire wear, tires getting dirty and the easier adjusting of tire grip with different tire compounds in gt5 are worth mentioning and definitely make gt5 more deep in that area of the game.


    Then there is the tracks. Looking at the sheer quality and quantity of the tracks I did little comparison first to see how many different tracks there are in both games. I used my own method of counting the tracks. Monza with or without chicane counts as one track because taking away one corner does not create a new track. But both suzuka configurations in gt5 count as 2 tracks combined. And similarly the oval and road course in indy means those two tracks do indeed count as two. I did not count dlc content because I don't have any for both games. Also different weather and day light settings I did not count but I did forget those either.

    Using that approach I got 63 tracks in gt5 and 80 tracks in forza 4. I think forza 4 has better selection of tracks and I think the fictional tracks in both games are very good. In forza I generally like all the tracks while in gt5 there are some tracks that are a bit meh (cape ring, eiger nordwand). The best fictional tracks are in forza 4 in my opinion. The one huge downside for forza is the very poor version of nordschleife. And generally all the real circuits are unrealistic and in most cases have very different elevations and corner cambers than the real tracks. I would not go as far as to say forza 4 has the quantity and gt5 has the quality because I don't really care that much if the track is really really close to the real thing or just close enough.

    Gt5 has the weather for some tracks and that is really really nice. And the day of time (night racing). And most importantly the option to have full daylight cycle with dynamic weather. For tracks like le mans that is just awesome. In the end I might prefer more tracks than we have in gt5 but at the same time I think weather and lighting of the few gt5 tracks is very nice as well. Gt5 also has snow and gravel racing. Rallying. That is great but it feels a bit unfinshed area of the game. Still very nice. Forza 4 also has these sticky patches around the track to prevent cutting. I think that is generally a good idea and I sometimes wish gt5 had that as well. Honestly I can't say which is better here. If I really had to choose I'd guess I'd go with gt5 just because of the variety.

    Then there is the track generator in gt5. It lacks some functionality to make it really usable for online racing and it also lacks the finesse for track creation. It is kinda hard to create something unique with it. But it is still nice toy to play around at times. With more work this could really become a game changer feature! To get it from track generator to track editor would make a hige difference imo. Overall when it comes to tracks both games have their own good and bad.


    Then the cars. Looking at the sheer number of cars gt5 wins. But looking at the quality I think forza 4 wins. I don't care about the standard/premium difference in gt5. I don't mind the low graphical quality of standards. What I want is variety, unique cars from all around the world. I think forza 4 has better car selection. Gt5 has better selection of gt500 cars but that's it. And it is not just the selection of the cars but the sounds and tuning options as well. And painting, the pp system and all other things. Forza 4 cars sound amazing. Most gt5 cars sound horrible. And forza 4 has car damage as well where as the car damage in gt5 is kinda joke. If there is one area where forza 4 beats gt5 100-0 it is the cars.


    Then there is the game. Which is better game for offline playing? Forza 4 has tons and tons of different races and series while gt5 has only really small amount. Forza 4 also utilizes its car selection and licenses trillion times better. Just to drive around against the ai I think forza 4 is extremely good. It has a lot of game in it, tons and tons of stuff to do. Tuning is better done, you can paint your cars, you can put different engines in the cars and swap the drivetrains. And the racing is better too. The ai in gt5 is just ****. It is just horrible horrible bad. It the wet for example it is just a joke. In forza 4 I can really race against the ai. They won't just roll over and die when I get the inside line and they really fight for the position. I have to race against them respectfully and like real people. And they are fast. For offline play I think forza 4 wins by huge margin again. Both games also have some online content (seasonals and f4 has other compeititons). I think forza 4 does that area better as well.


    Online play is totally different though. Gt5 offers much better control of the racing overall. There are far far less dickheads driving in gt5 online and there are also a lot less wreckers. The whole system allows for much more organized and relaxed racing and there are also a lot more people online in gt5 than in forza 4. Also in gt5 getting rid of wreckers and trolls is much easier and better while in forza it is at times impossible. I think the way gt5 handles out of control cars is also better. In gt5 those cars go into ghost mode which means they can't take out half of the grid in first turn. I'd love to see the variety of cars you can see in forza where everyone is running their own tunes, bodykits and paints where in gt5 the grid is filled with more bland selection of cars. But other than that I think gt5 wins here 100-0. Imho gt5 online experience is very positive while forza 4 is very negative. And xbox live does cost real money while you can play online for free with ps3.


    Then there are the things that I don't really find that interesting or meaningful but felt like commenting about them anyway. Graphics. Forza 4 is really really shiny at times and only does 720p. Has input delay. gt5 runs at 1080p and generally looks nice. Cockpit view in gt5 is unusable due to the input lag and also the random shaking and low fps. Sounds in gt5 in general are just awful. There are exceptions but it is still just bad. Forza 4 sound is generally great.


    So in the end which I think is better? I like good and respectful online racing. I don't mind putting softer tires on the front in gt5 to get rid of the understeer. I don't want steering lag. In the end I have sold my xbox 360 and its games. I still have gt5. I might get gt6 if it has enough new stuff in it and it isn't just a patched gt5. Despite me liking gt5 better I think there are tons of things forza 4 does miles and miles better. But what I want gt5 does the core stuff better.

    I'm guy who grew up playing almost solely racing games on my new console. Then I got psx and gt1 and gt2 and soon jumped to pc sim racing with grand prix legends and sports car gt. And from there to live for speed, rfactor, nkpro and iracing. I enjoy playing all those games and I also enjoy playing gt5. There are some things which cause me to enjoy f4 less.
     
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  9. MarcosGAB

    MarcosGAB

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    Hi people,
    I think I can give an opinion on this subject, I have FM3, FM4, GT3, GT4, GT5, GT6, I just can say that games are unbelievable, every one have their ups, overall GT6 have more to show, but FM4 have something that hold us in the game, but now are 5 years and I just can't choose just one of this games, I stil playing this games and every day I like more, the physics in GT is better(my opinion) the sonds FM are better, graphics GT6 is better, FM4 and GT5 are equal, the best game is GT4, the Fun is FM4, In the next month will appears GT Sport, maybe I buy it (with PS4) is time to pass to the new generation.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2019
  10. STAYIN_LOUD

    STAYIN_LOUD

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    Thanks for addressing this fact, it's so good to see a conflict free discussion



    Also can I just say, the main reason I played FM4 is to grind for the Pantera, my favourite car since I seen one in Malta, I eventually fell in love with the game and since I never played any GT's until 2016, 5 years after I got this game, I had nothing to compare it too and remained my favourite game until 2 years later when I picked up a copy of TDU2 in '12, and horizon 1 in' 14, this is also when I had just got into Tuner cars and concepts, where this game was very strong, with cars like the Celica Supra and the MR2, But then you see the brands you never heard of, rossion, Devon, Bertone, and my personal favourite, Ruf, that's right, I had never heard of Ruf until I seen this, fair to say I got Driver San Francisco 1 year later and grinded until I got all The Rufs, Also, tesla, one of my favourite brands, after the previously mentioned Ruf, made its first appearance and I found my love for electric cars, overall, this remains my third favourite game to this day, and I still have that bright yellow Pantera in my garage(not a reference to elvis presleys pantera, he shot at his, why should I reference him)
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  11. Silver Arrows

    Silver Arrows Premium

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    Holy necro bump, Batman.
     
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  12. STAYIN_LOUD

    STAYIN_LOUD

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    R U Talking to me, sorry, nostalgia can kick in sometimes, heck I'm listening to the language extended remix as I write this
     
  13. STAYIN_LOUD

    STAYIN_LOUD

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    You should buy the newer gen FM's, not 5 though, as that game was basically a testing stage