The good and bad about public reviews?

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no not lottery, more like buying a very expensive egg , you never know if it's rotten or not until you cracked it open

Isn't this with every packaged product though? I once bought a Grundig television because my dad had one for 10 to 15 years until it died. However I had came back home 3 times in a row with a new Grundig television of the same model from the store, all had some issue. Coil whine, DOA (dead on arrival), misaligned image. That was until I got a Thomson and even that one started acting up right after warranty was over, purple and green spots in the screen.

And I am sure everyone had their fair share of getting bad products, which they didn't know were bad until they unpacked them at home. Unlike other manufacturers that tend to not go public on these matters (if at all they change the production process), Fanatec publicly acknowledges the issues and say that they will pay extra attention to the issues at the production process.

Anyway, the point was indeed that issues were not mentioned with the wheel in most reviews. I think it's fine to mention them as long as it is mentioned as "with my review sample that I got I had these and these issues, however Fanatec told me they would look at the issues and pay extra attention to it". I don't know what kind of embargo guidelines Fanatec has, as I haven't been told yet, so it is not possible for me to claim anything in terms of what the company allows or doesn't allow in a review.
 
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Perhaps the designated community test managers (CTMs) could devise a form or format (somewhat like the standardized form available on GT5 tuning section).

The purpose of the form would be to list various information about the tester, information about the peripheral equipment/environment (rig etc.) test conducted with, and a section filled out by the reviewers themselves that would address possible biases they may have.

It is not a perfect solution, nor will it negate any inherent biases by the reviewers, however it will provide the readers with knowledge on how to more accurately interpret the reviewer's findings.

Not everyone who reads the reviews are avid participants of the forums, and consequently may not know information about the reviewers that others in the forum take for granted.

It would save the readers of said reviews from having to wade through a lot of verbage to size what kind of sim enthusiast actually did the review.

I think adding a little bit of structure to how the review is presented would also be helpful to the readers of said reviews.

This would be relatively easy to do by the CTMs gleaning/cherry picking the best presentations (not content) of reviews submitted on CSR E, and use them to formulate a structure.
 
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Hi everybody,

when a computer gaming magazine is testing mainstream hardware like mouses or keyboards, it's fine. But I often was disappointed, when they have tested special hardware like wheels or joysticks. For me, they did not go enough into detail.

But to be honest, I missed that in some of the community-tests of the CSR-E as well. It was nice to see videos or pictures of the new "gadget" but there have not been so much new information. This might be only my point of view, as I am always searching a lot in the web for new information, when a new wheel (or other interesting stuff) is announced.

What I don't like about the community test is the following: We have the contrary extreme (opposing to the gaming magazines) here. A lot of enthusiasts. Guys who are willing to spend a lot of money for a nice piece of hardware. Even if it would sometimes be more sensible to stay calm and wait. Some of you pre-order a expensive piece of hardware before you even know, what it's like. Some of you buy a expensive wheel just to bridge the time until the next and even better wheel arrives. For me, buying 500€ wheel is a investment for 2 or 3 years, but not for 3 months.

Often we are not only customers of a company, but fans. And that's the best for a company but not always the best for the customer.

And that's my last point. Most of the members/community-testers are so enthusiastic. Sometimes too enthusiastic to make a differentiated review. That's what I am sometimes missing. And that's, why I will always wait a bit, before buying something new.

We had it with the CSR-E. First there was a hype, then the first complaints arrived. But the truth is always somewhere in between :sly:

Just my 2 cents :)
 
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Perhaps the designated community test managers (CTMs) could devise a form or format (somewhat like the standardized form available on GT5 tuning section).

The purpose of the form would be to list various information about the tester, information about the peripheral equipment/environment (rig etc.) test conducted with, and a section filled out by the reviewers themselves that would address possible biases they may have.

It is not a perfect solution, nor will it negate any inherent biases by the reviewers, however it will provide the readers with knowledge on how to more accurately interpret the reviewer's findings.

Not everyone who reads the reviews are avid participants of the forums, and consequently may not know information about the reviewers that others in the forum take for granted.

It would save the readers of said reviews from having to wade through a lot of verbage to size what kind of sim enthusiast actually did the review.

I think adding a little bit of structure to how the review is presented would also be helpful to the readers of said reviews.

This would be relatively easy to do by the CTMs gleaning/cherry picking the best presentations (not content) of reviews submitted on CSR E, and use them to formulate a structure.

I was already thinking about some sort of form anyway so that it'll be easy to read for me as well as the rest of the people on this forum.

To start here are the things I'd like to know. At least this is the structure in my head. If you guys are missing some element you would like to know, then please say so as Round 2 hasn't been started yet.

Platforms owned: PC and PS3 (xbox is irrelevant since the wheel is not compatible with that platform)

Equipment still owned: Logitech Formula Force GP, Logitech G25, Thrustmaster T500 RS, Thrustmaster Ferrari F1 add-on, Thrustmaster TH8 RS. Or maybe even ECCI and Frex stuff.

Rig owned: rSeat, GamePOD, normal desk and chair, Wheelstand Pro... etc.

Games owned per Platform:
PC: ....
PS3: ....

Elevator pitch on why you are suitable as tester:
Around 500 characters long. So no more then a youtube message.

Elevator pitch on why you would not be suitable:
Same 500 characters on why you wouldn't be or would be biased.

If you wouldn't become a tester who would you like to see do the job instead:
Pick one person


As for the review I think a general outline like the following would be nice. However I think leaving it up to the review on how long he or she spends on a topic is up to them. Having guidelines is good, but it shouldn't be too restrictive.

Anyhow, this is what I was thinking...

Opening word by the reviewer.

Small introduction

Unboxing

First impressions

Assembly of the gear (onto rig/desk) and first installation and use. (how easy did it go and so on)

Setup options Driver and Wheel

Feel of the wheel in games A to Z

Benchmarks

Pros & Cons

Things Noticed during review and maybe response from Fanatec

Final Advice and Conclusion

Word of thanks if one feels like it


Again here... feel free to talk about how you'd like to see the layout of a review. I was just thinking of this from the top of my head quickly. So I reckon I would have missed a few things. ;)
 
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I think people are also forgetting the testers in the US only had like one week to play with it before it hit public hands as well. That means 2/3 of your GTP testers barely got a jump on the public. I think Sonac might have barely had his wheel maybe almost 2 weeks before it went public.

Remember by the time Crispy and I got our wheels other people were getting their wheels shipped around that time
 
What I'd like to see this time around is all the reviews come out at once, so they can be read together and all the pros and cons of said review can be analyzed to see if there is a trend towards one issue or bright spot. Maybe a tad bit more time with the wheels as well, if time permits.

It would be ideal if We could find a rookie to test one of these wheels just to see how a first time user would rate it. ( I know the target audience is more for the serious user but it never hurts to have a "fresh" perspective, if you will )

Overall I think it's a good idea to have the community review these products, but a little tweaking of the process might be in order.

These are just my .02 cents.
 
Well, since I was among the members who got a chance to do a beta-test for the CSRE, here are my few thoughts on the subject:

I can speak only for myself, but I would never write anything that I am not 100% accurate about. It takes very long time to get the knowledge and expertise on some particular subject and driving simulations and peripherals are one of them.

When you come to the community of +150.000 members with decade of tradition and you willingly decide to publish something by your nickname, it must involve some dignity and awareness of having obligation to be objective and truthful in your thoughts and impressions.

I had great dilemmas when writing CSRE overview, it took me more than a month to finish everything and I have invested probably more than 100 hours in all games combined to test performance, compare it directly to performance of my GT2 and G25 wheels, take notes about everything and assemble the overview.

I think that person who is granted with the privilege to beta-test something has double-sided obligation: one towards the manufacturer who recognized him as somebody who can help with development of some product (at lease as beta-testing is concerned, not just usual "reviewing") and towards community who have right to expect a truthful and unbiased overview.

On the matter of my CSRE overview, I still stand behind everything I wrote there. That wheel is still the best I've ever driven, my beta-unit is still alive and very kicking and I had no issues with it whatsoever. But I was also among the first to vocalize my personal doubts about the wheel-rim, which was the issue that soon got many supporters.

To cut it short, making community-reviews is a double-edged sword for both sides. As a reviewer, you have to be aware how you put your personal credibility on particular forum in stake by writing the review. If you write something that is not realistic, or you willingly decide to cater the manufacturer because he selected "you", community will realize it and your credibility will be ruined forever. The manufacturer/product will also begin to suffer, because those kind of processes are always mutual.

I really think how reviews of products on specialized-communities are much more valuable than some general websites. I will not call any names or whatever, but sometimes I really laugh hard about the many reviews and many presentations, especially abut the driving peripherals, that can be found on some respected sites. But that is their problem, they failed in what was most important - knowledge and credibility - all sacrificed for more hits or catering the casual (greater) audience.

I will give you the same logic, but on the inverted perspective. Game reviews. Back in 2005 Konami published a PS2 game called Enthusia Professional Racing. That game was slaughtered on almost all websites and communities (although irrelevant, Metactrtici score for Enthusia is 70%) and only places where you could find positive overviews were specialized-communities. And Enthusia is still a real masterpiece of the genre, even today. Richard Burns Rally is another example of above.

Community-reviews are good thing and I would always welcome them more than any "official" review-channel. There is much more credibility to lose on places such as GTP, for both reviewer and manufacturer, and that loss is happening much faster than in usual media channels.

As long as all sides included are 100% aware how only truth and accurate and full information can be the path to successful presentation to the people of interest, everybody wins. And stakes are enormous, because it takes just one *mistake* to lose your credibility forever.

Internet never forgives. And pretty recent example of that guy Paul Christoforo and his Ocean Marketing episode is a great showcase of the above. And until internet is really a place where no major thing can pass without heavy criticism, community reviews remains a great and objective way of presenting something to the public IMO.
 
I think anyone that writes a review for any given product will do their best to be objective for the most part. Every review I have read here at GTPlanet has been sincere as far as I can tell.

I have been Sim racing since the late 70's and have had many different products over the years in regards to games, controllers or wheels/brakes/shifters etc.. I say what is on my mind whether I like a product or not. If I am chosen as a tester I will say what I like and what I don't.

Currently I own Thrustmaster, Fanatec, DSD, Symproject, Zalem design, PS3, Xbox and PC. As of late I mainly race at iRacing because it is the pinnacle of Sim racing. IMO PC racing is far advanced of console racing and hopefully the next generation of consoles will close that gap. PC racing has distanced itself from consoles over the past 10 years.

I have been critical of the Fanatecs CSRE's rim which I do own. I was going to send it back but opted to keep it because it is a quality wheel and a GT rim is rumored to be coming out. I am one that does not like the stock rim that it shipped with at all.

I also believe community reviews are vital and necessary. Whenever someone is interested in any given product they need only to Google it or search on a forum and reviews are abundant. Sure their are a lot of fluff reviews but they are easily discarded, here at GTPlanet they seem to be genuine.
 
left888
I think anyone that writes a review for any given product will do their best to be objective for the most part. Every review I have read here at GTPlanet has been sincere

.

Agreed 100%
Later you mention PC superiority, while I agree, I am currently a console only gamer and would be put off by reviews that put down one platform during a review of a peripheral. Seperate sections would be needed for each platform with little cross comparison. Likewise with games. Don't take this wrongly ;) but sometimes your posts read as elitist when it comes to gaming platform. I would hate for that to Mar what IMO would be a stellar review.

With that said........

sandboxgod
left888 you are a hard man to impress which would make you a great candidate to test 👍

Also agree.
 
But if you have some knowledge about shoes (in this case wheels) then its only natural that you make a review about shoes but just because you liked the shoes you start defending the company trousers (in this case the costumer support) it makes me wonder whats in it for you and was your shoe review honnest and unbiased? and thats what relly bothers me.
 
Caz
Agreed 100%
Later you mention PC superiority, while I agree, I am currently a console only gamer and would be put off by reviews that put down one platform during a review of a peripheral. Seperate sections would be needed for each platform with little cross comparison. Likewise with games. Don't take this wrongly ;) but sometimes your posts read as elitist when it comes to gaming platform. I would hate for that to Mar what IMO would be a stellar review.

I also am a console player, both Xbox and PS3 and pretty much every racing game they offered. I wanted more however, console racing is fine if that satisfies you. For me I was not happy with so many aspects of console racing.

Once I moved to PC racing I was blown away, from graphics to peripherals. PC racing moves you closer to real racing and that is what I want.

Don't get me wrong, there are tons of people that are satisfied with console racing and they love it, I have been racing consoles since the beginning of consoles and Sim racing has evolved. I don't consider myself an elitist, I am just going with what is offered. I still plug in GT5 and Forza every once and a while.


left888 you are a hard man to impress which would make you a great candidate to test 👍

I agree, if something is of quality I will stand behind it and otherwise.
 
This whole bias thing is a giant what if any way. I don't believe any one of the community tester reviewers who were chosen here had any real biased opinion aside from new toy syndrome at first. Nor is the credibility of those three in question here.

As a whole, all of the reviews I have read on the csr:e from communuty reviewers have been fairly impartial.

I think the idea of community chosen reviewers is a good one as a whole, but seems to have created a major rift within our community here. ( see quote in second post )
 
left888
Its not satisfaction of consoles that keeps me away from PC gaming. Its my addictive personality with everything I do. You don't HAVE to have the latest and greatest or run everything cranked to 11, but why not. Know what I mean.

I meant no harm with my elitist comment, that's why I said sometimes your posts "read" that way.

Cheers



Amf, by rift I mean hostility. Gang mentality. You have been on the receiving side of it, you should know what I mean.

During csr polling people were coming out of the woodwork to be helpful to each other, extend advice and in general just be more friendly to each other. Since then (somewhat) it seems everyone's finger has been on the trigger pretty tight. And now it is starting again. Peoples credibility being called into question etc. All that will do is entice a flame war between users or groups of users. Anyway........
Politics ....... lol
 
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I did not see anything wrong with your post. I never have the latest and greatest, I buy what I think will be of best value. My rig I built, my PC is good but not top of the line. If only I could win the lottery. :D
 
IMO there is too much negative bitching about stuff and flying off the cuff by people especially when its user error.

"OMFG my product X doesn't work, this company is horrible, F them, unbelievable"

Then a day later

"Oh I forgot to plug it in" :|

But the damage is done and the wave has already turned into a Tsunami. Its been ad nauseum since the internet came about.

Now there are legit products that deserve to get bashed but since our hobby is a niche hobby and a company like Fanatec and Endor are trying to make things BETTER for us by providing us with features and stuff that we want, you'd think people would try their best to be patient and work toward helping our hobby instead of the incessant bitching.

Yes you paid money. Yes you deserve a working product. But there are ways to get what you want and there are ways to just be a moron who is just out to cause damage.

Anonymity on the internet will always raise my eyebrow.
 
But if you have some knowledge about shoes (in this case wheels) then its only natural that you make a review about shoes but just because you liked the shoes you start defending the company trousers (in this case the costumer support) it makes me wonder whats in it for you and was your shoe review honnest and unbiased? and thats what relly bothers me.

So you are saying that when you write a review of a product from a company then you void any rights to say anything good about that company. As saying something bad about the company seems the only thing to be tolerated for a reviewer in your case, since no company would give you an incentive (public or not) to say anything bad.

So let's say that I write a review about Need For Speed Shift from Electronic Arts then I void any rights to say anything good about the customer support of Electronic Arts, even though I got replacement registry codes with ease for Battlefield when I bought it and the codes didn't work for some reason. However if the customer support refused any cooperation and told me to go back to the shop then I would be allowed to rant about it.

I dunno... I think it only shows the enormous distrust in people to be honest if one thinks that deeply about it. And to be honest that's the basis for wondering if anyone is even biased or not, if there is any trust at all in them from the reader. Or first of all, does the reader at all trust anyone but himself. If he does not then there is no reason for him to discuss whether a reviewer is biased or not, because the reviewer will always be distrusted by the reader in this case.
 
I just read it after I posted it Mayaman. I agree with you. Besides, there are always people who will shout biased about reviews and so on.
At the end of the day I think we all just need to keep in mind that these reviews are written by the people because they love sim racing and they love to inform their fellow sim racers to the best of their extent on the new product they got to try out. And even those reviewers know what they would like to see if another person made a review, so they will most likely write the review as though they would have to make a decision for themselves upon it to purchase the new product. In this I don't see any reason why one fellow sim racer would lie to another fellow sim racer about a product, since at the end of the day we all want to race together without any down time.
 
So you are saying that when you write a review of a product from a company then you void any rights to say anything good about that company. As saying something bad about the company seems the only thing to be tolerated for a reviewer in your case, since no company would give you an incentive (public or not) to say anything bad.

No Im not saying that... if you have any knowlodge of what to do in the case that is presented before you from a disatisfied costumer then you should try and help out... But not in the defensive some times smart &%$ way that we've seen some community reviewers do....

Edited after Caz pointed me in the right direction.
 
Gentlemen,
this is by far one of the most interesting and productive threads I have read for a very long time.
Now from my perspective I can emphasize that we are interested in a product review which is as objective and informative as possible. We have chosen to make community reviews because in traditional magazines it does not happen often that e steering wheel gets so much detailed attention and not many editors have the passion for these devices or even racing simulations so that they know what they are talking about.

I am amazed how much effort the commity testers put into these tests. They spend hours, days and weeks to produce text, pictures and videos. And what do they get in return?
I doubt they do it because of the discount and other than professional editors, they get no salary for that. I assume the testers do that to increase their reputation in the community and help others to make a buying decision.

Now we are trying everything on our side to make the reviews as unbiased as possible and this is logical as it makes it more trustworthy. If we would tell the testers what to write we would destroy their reputation (and ours as well).

So what can we do on our side to improve the community tests and increase the value for the community even more?
 
Gentlemen,
this is by far one of the most interesting and productive threads I have read for a very long time.
Now from my perspective I can emphasize that we are interested in a product review which is as objective and informative as possible. We have chosen to make community reviews because in traditional magazines it does not happen often that e steering wheel gets so much detailed attention and not many editors have the passion for these devices or even racing simulations so that they know what they are talking about.

I am amazed how much effort the commity testers put into these tests. They spend hours, days and weeks to produce text, pictures and videos. And what do they get in return?
I doubt they do it because of the discount and other than professional editors, they get no salary for that. I assume the testers do that to increase their reputation in the community and help others to make a buying decision.

Now we are trying everything on our side to make the reviews as unbiased as possible and this is logical as it makes it more trustworthy. If we would tell the testers what to write we would destroy their reputation (and ours as well).

So what can we do on our side to improve the community tests and increase the value for the community even more?

And this is exactly the reason why I give Fanatec the benefit of the doubt.
 
No Im not saying that... if you have any knowlodge of what to do in the case that is presented before you from a disatisfied costumer then you should try and help out... But not in the defensive some times smart &%$ way that we've seen some community reviewers do....

Edited after Caz pointed me in the right direction.

Agreed, being helpful to each other is a good thing and being a wise guy isn't. I have worked at a special technical service desk on the headquarters of my ISP here in the Netherlands (@Home back in 2007 but now fused and called Ziggo), so I do know what you are referring to in terms of do's and don'ts when it comes to helping a frustrated customer. And mind you this one of the biggest ISPs here in the country, so I've had lots of pissed customers.
However I do not think you should put a member of this community into the role of an unemployed but official customer support agent for Fanatec. The member of this community doing the review is and will always be an individual and a fellow sim racer with only a temporary tie to Fanatec. However it is indeed advised to refrain from outing any extreme opinions (positive or negative) about Fanatec or their products within a reasonable time window from posting the review. Or showing up in any threads about issues with products. Cause you as a reviewer might have had a good sample, but any mass production sample could have a bad one in there. And commenting in such a thread would unnecessary shift the attention to your review and make it seem as biased.
 
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So what can we do on our side to improve the community tests and increase the value for the community even more?

Evaluate or possibly modify your criteria so that "new blood" has the opportunity to participate in the review process as well in some way instead of just the usual crowd on the different forums the "review" wheels are allocated to.

One idea I have, is that if you can locate two reviewers in close physical proximity to one another, more than one person could review the same wheel, that would also give you more bang for your buck, although I am sure it will complicate the 50% discount post-review.
 
Interesting idea. So what about a community circulation thread where we have a wheel for some regions (countries) and people can test the products one by one after each other?

We pay for the freight so the test is free. We just need to find a way to make sure it will be forwarded in time.
 
Gentlemen,
this is by far one of the most interesting and productive threads I have read for a very long time.
Now from my perspective I can emphasize that we are interested in a product review which is as objective and informative as possible. We have chosen to make community reviews because in traditional magazines it does not happen often that e steering wheel gets so much detailed attention and not many editors have the passion for these devices or even racing simulations so that they know what they are talking about.

I am amazed how much effort the commity testers put into these tests. They spend hours, days and weeks to produce text, pictures and videos. And what do they get in return?
I doubt they do it because of the discount and other than professional editors, they get no salary for that. I assume the testers do that to increase their reputation in the community and help others to make a buying decision.

Now we are trying everything on our side to make the reviews as unbiased as possible and this is logical as it makes it more trustworthy. If we would tell the testers what to write we would destroy their reputation (and ours as well).

So what can we do on our side to improve the community tests and increase the value for the community even more?

Thomas, I am glad I started this thread. I am also glad and thank everyone here for the level of conversation we have going here, which has been worse and to be honest seemed more like flame wars.

I agree with you from myself as a person at least. I want to put effort into this so that I can inform my fellow sim racer properly about your product (good or bad) so that he or she can make up their mind on if they feel that the money is worth it for them to purchase it. I even put money into it already by buying a new (macro) lens for my camera of 250 euros, so for me personally the money I would save from the discount you give me is basically already spend into making the review possible that I would like to give.

On how to improve the trustworthiness, I think i'll leave that up to the community as a whole. Since I feel that it is better then say anything from my position. Apart from that I don't know how to improve things from the top of my head. Apart from what was mentioned maybe on page 2, having some sort of template for applications and some review example (as in some basic template people could follow). To improve the position of the reviewer in being more trustworthy, no idea.
 
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