GT5 Leaderboard discussion thread

I think we better wait until we know what the online functionality's of GT5 will bring before we can discuss anything. If it ever comes out..

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Andy2125

I think we better wait until we know what the online functionality's of GT5 will bring before we can discuss anything. If it ever comes out..

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Good thinking Andy. There are a few reasons to start thinking about it now though, such as:

1. It would be great if PD would include the split times in the replay data like they do now with the laptime. It is unlikely, however, that they will do so. A solution like GTDB is therefore unlikely. Also it would be impractible for members to upload a replay each time they improved their splits over the course of the week.
2. WRS will most likely stick to its concept of showing split times and hiding laptimes. It is not probable that PD will support that function in its online leaderboards.
3. For off-line racing and on-line comparison of split times achieved we will always need a leaderboard.
4. When GT5 releases I expect an avalanche of new GTP and WRS members. Our current task of inputting split times in Luxy manually will then no longer be workable. I therefore want to anticipate and build something before March '10.

The first thing I want to do next is search for a free web based database application in which we can build the input screen, tables and report screen that we need for a good Luxy successor. So far the only good candidate I have found is ZOHO, but I am unsure about the user restrictions and the safety of its public apps.

Any suggestions on that subject are more than welcome.

steven

I understand the suggestion and I would try to do it if I could, but unfortunately Luxy is a frozen app that will not be improved in any way.

For GT5 I am planning a self-input leaderboard for timetrials. This requires a free web based db app and a developer to do some coding. I am in contact with Wayne and Baldur about it but so far they are - understandably - hesitant to make any commitments. If anybody else in WRS knows his way in tables and reports please contact me 👍

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I'd be even better if you made a script that would automatically harvest the laptimes from the board. This would make your life so much easier:

1. You don't have to enter the data yourself
2. The board is automatically updated lets say, each hour
3. You don't have to worry about users editing each others times - so no need for users logging in, creating acounts etc.

It would only require a little bit of PHP code that would parse the posts and extract the laptimes, it's not so difficult. Contact me if you need help.

PS: Nice modification to the splits. Great to see the duration between the splits. However, I did find it a bit confusion in the beginning though, because on the board we've got T1, 2 and 3, but now there's 5T's in LUXY. Maybe it's clearer when T2 would be named T1-2. Then you've got: T1, T1-2, T2, T2-3, T3, or something like T1, gap, T2, gap, T3. But nevertheless it's a nice addition!

I don't think it's wise to start the work for GT5 WRS leaderboard system just yet as we don't know what options we have in our usage after all. Might be just lots of unecessary work.

But one thing is worth thinking, we should be using the PSN logging in system, just like zabeu made the system in his GTdb 👍 (by the way, that's GREAT work from Tim, it should be used more 👍)

Check the system here:

click

The idea of everybody updating their own time of course is wise and that's the direction it should be taken. No need for anyone to spend enormous amounts of time for it. And would stay updated all the time. 👍

[ Sorry for the OT, maybe this should get an own thread ]

Nice @ gtdb.net, I was thinking about building such a site myself. In fact I already have to code to extract PSN name, car, track, final time, tires etc. from a replay file. Maybe there's no need for that anymore

But regarding the leaderboard, it would be quiet some work to upload a replay every time instead of just posting the splits on the board. I think of it as 2 separate things.

Of course the normal split posting thing should be by just typing your splits;

- The logging in --> PSN system - no need to create accounts etc, totally secure too.
- Splits --> type in just like previously
- Replay --> upload (like in GTdb) --> get's your info straight from the replay file. (no splits though, but not needed either)

Something like this, just a general proposal.

edit,

I can personally ask Tim how big of a task it would be to mould from the GTdb something inside those guidelines in the future. I know he's atm VERY busy man, but maybe he'll at some point has little time to help us even if the eventual coding is made by someone else. He has the basic work done already with the GTdb, he could be very helpful to someone doing the actual work for the WRS leaderboard 2.0. Then there's the site hosting issue too that needs to be solved.

I think the idea of each driver changing his/her own splits, in the table is far better. This eliminates relying on 1-2 people, to spend 10-15-20mins or however long it takes to update the table.

This would mean a different table server.

steven

Good thinking Andy. There are a few reasons to start thinking about it now though, such as:

1. It would be great if PD would include the split times in the replay data like they do now with the laptime. It is unlikely, however, that they will do so. A solution like GTDB is therefore unlikely. Also it would be impractible for members to upload a replay each time they improved their splits over the course of the week.
2. WRS will most likely stick to its concept of showing split times and hiding laptimes. It is not probable that PD will support that function in its online leaderboards.
3. For off-line racing and on-line comparison of split times achieved we will always need a leaderboard.
4. When GT5 releases I expect an avalanche of new GTP and WRS members. Our current task of inputting split times in Luxy manually will then no longer be workable. I therefore want to anticipate and build something before March '10.

The first thing I want to do next is search for a free web based database application in which we can build the input screen, tables and report screen that we need for a good Luxy successor. So far the only good candidate I have found is ZOHO, but I am unsure about the user restrictions and the safety of its public apps.

Any suggestions on that subject are more than welcome.

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I totally agree with you on all points.

1. I don't think split times will be included in the replays as well, but even if they are, the users don't want to upload a reply for every time they post splits. Basically using a GTDB system for split times is too much work. Using a GTDB system for the final submission can work very well though.
2. Agreed, so we'll have to continue the way we work now.
3. Yep, and a special one that only shows splits, not final lap times etc. That's another reason why we can't use GTDB for split times, the final times will be visible.
4. Yeah, we can always build a system for GT5P, test it, see how it works and use that feedback for some final system when GT5 is finally out.

But as I mentioned in my other post. I think a totally automatic system works far better than any other method. It's not much work to create a system that parses all the posts and extracts the time.

The only hassle is converting board user names to divisions/controllers and PSN nicks. But that would be solvable.

I think i'll create a system tonight (proof-of-concept) that automatically parses all the times and puts in a little DB and prints it the way it is printed now. We'll see how well that works. The only problem is I haven't got internet at home as some construction workers drilled through the internet cables of our telecom provider. I haven't got internet for about a week now, but I'll be able to create a system offline if I save some HTML here at work.

Using a system like ZOHO is IMHO overkill. Just 3 tables, some HTML/PHP and a fetch script should be sufficient to replicate the current system. Or are there some very nifty features to be added?

About the waiting for GT5; offcourse things will change when GT5 comes out. But how has the WRS changed from GT4 to GT5P? I think posting splits in GT5P or in GT5 won't differ so much. Maybe a couple of more tracks, but the basics stays the same. So I agree with being aware of GT5, but creating a system now shouldn't be a complete waste of time. (PS i'm talking about the leaderboard here, not about GTDB where you can post replays, setups etc.)

When GT5 is released, lots of functionality will be added in terms of Private Rooms and leaderboards. Whatever the extensions will be, a leaderboard for WRS will remain to be needed because of our unique way of discussing splits but keeping the laptimes for ourselves. Also, for (offline) time-trials PD will most likely not offer anything we could use.

This thread is to discuss the subject, and keep the weekly combo threads clean from the subject.

All hints and suggestions are welcome.

Bert/DustDriver and Duke were kind enough to move the off-topic posts from this week's WRS thread into this one so that all ideas and comments are in one thread where those posts are on-topic.

Thanks for the help mods 👍

JoostBaksteen

But as I mentioned in my other post. I think a totally automatic system works far better than any other method. It's not much work to create a system that parses all the posts and extracts the time.

The only hassle is converting board user names to divisions/controllers and PSN nicks. But that would be solvable.

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Good to be trying to work this out, at least to a degree, now. Before the flood of new users that will come with GT5.

One comment I do have - I would not want stringent requirements on the formatting of posts to align with leaderboard software.

Afterall, this is still a forum, first and foremost.

So, if need be, I would be an advocate of something like the GTRP DB, in lieu of such requirements.

If it can be worked around, great. Just wanted to call that out up front.

EDK

One comment I do have - I would not want stringent requirements on the formatting of posts to align with leaderboard software.

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I agree. I'm not thinking about stringent requirements, you don't want to look up the format every time your posting your splits.

But looking at the data in the forum, most of it is structured already anyway. Most people post there splits in the form of:

T1: x'xx.xxx
S2 x:xx.xxx
x'xx.xxx

This is easily parsed. So the way I see it, is that these times can be parsed automatically without the need for these guidelines.

But if someone posts his/her splits as: "Today I did my run, the first split I had a time of x'xx.xxx which was a bit faster than EDK's x'xx.xxx but at the second split I made up with x.xx.xxx". This way it's impossible to know which is which, so the times would not be included in the leaderboard.

On the leaderboard you can easily put an FAQ "Why is my time not included?" that gives some guidelines to post your splits. So i'm not talking about strict guidelines, but if a user posts a time on a separate line it should be parsed correctly. Even if they use "T1:", "S2:", nothing in front of the time, when they use semicolons or a quote to split the time, using bold or normal text etc.

Although this system will probably work in 95-99% of the cases, there could be some cases where wrong times will be included. E.g. when some user posts the time of another driver (not quoting, the system is intelligent enough for that). For such cases you'll still need an admin that can fix the leaderboard. But the work the admin has to do is only 5% of the work now.

The good part about this system is that it automatically does all the work.

This means that the system can be tested properly as well. As we have all the previous leaderboards and forum topics we can let the system generate all the weekly leaderboards for all the previous weeks, compare this with LUXY and we've got an idea how well the system performs. That way we can see which times are not parsed properly, solve the problems and assure proper quality.

Well it looks like Joost is a gift from the gods ... this guy can actually extract the split times as posted in the combo threads into a leaderboard so that NOBODY has to do any input anymore in a while ... he lives in the neighbourhoud so we can sit together and make something beautiful for leaderboarding GT5, and perhaps even sooner than that.

More to follow as soon as any progress has been made!

If the times to be put on the leaderboard where in BOLDFACE, then only those times would automatically be place. So any reference to someone elses times, would not be transfered as long as they used standardface type.

Yes, that's a possibility, but we're trying avoid any posting guidelines. And I don't think it's needed as the system already automatically extracted all the times from week 54 correctly :-).

But there are a lot of different weeks with different data, so it's still some work to finish a beta version of the data import. When that's finished we'll develop the reports, after which we'll look at some new features we may want to introduce, discuss the system with Kevin etc. so there is still a lot to be done.

But as Steven said, more to follow when progress has been made.

If you guys have any other suggestions in the meantime, we're all ears.

Thanks for all your efforts 👍 Greatly appreciated Quite obvious, but keep in mind that tracks like Nurb & La Sarthe has quite a lot more splits than the tracks we have now 👍

Maybe to make the system to calculate the "theoretical" best lap from the posted splits? Would be fun to see, even if that kind of lap might be impossible to achieve in reality.

Timppaq

Maybe to make the system to calculate the "theoretical" best lap from the posted splits? Would be fun to see, even if that kind of lap might be impossible to achieve in reality.

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Within WRS the theoretical best lap is called "DHolland"

Does it taste good?

Timppaq

Does it taste good?

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My guess would be ""



All the best
Maz

Timppaq

Thanks for all your efforts 👍 Greatly appreciated Quite obvious, but keep in mind that tracks like Nurb & La Sarthe has quite a lot more splits than the tracks we have now 👍

Maybe to make the system to calculate the "theoretical" best lap from the posted splits? Would be fun to see, even if that kind of lap might be impossible to achieve in reality.

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In GT4, we just picked specific splits to post at those tracks, areas that made sense and did not give too much away.

Theoretical fast lap would be cool. 👍

EDK

In GT4, we just picked specific splits to post at those tracks, areas that made sense and did not give too much away.

Theoretical fast lap would be cool. 👍

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Splits to pick will be the same because the system will read what we post, and we will post what will be instructed in post # 1 of each combo thread.

Theoretical fast lap - we could calculate it from the fastest splits/sectors as posted within the thread, or we could copy and paste it from the PS3 PD online leaderboard. For this week that would be 1'44.033.

The interesting time would be the one consisting from the fastest sector times posted to the thread 👍 It could also be noted somewhere, who's sector times are used in the "theoretical" lap.

steven

Splits to pick will be the same because the system will read what we post, and we will post what will be instructed in post # 1 of each combo thread.

Theoretical fast lap - we could calculate it from the fastest splits/sectors as posted within the thread, or we could copy and paste it from the PS3 PD online leaderboard. For this week that would be 1'44.033.

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Yeah, the theoretical fastest lap is a nice addition, we'll definitely include that.

About the PS3 PD online leaderboard, this weeks combo is on S2's, but the leaderboard is probably on S3's, same goes for the online runs with different tunings, so it's not always comparable. But with 'standard' timetrials we can definitely include those times 👍

JoostBaksteen

Yeah, the theoretical fastest lap is a nice addition, we'll definitely include that.

About the PS3 PD online leaderboard, this weeks combo is on S2's, but the leaderboard is probably on S3's, same goes for the online runs with different tunings, so it's not always comparable. But with 'standard' timetrials we can definitely include those times 👍

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All the online leaderboards for Time Trial are maximum S2. You may see some times near the bottom on S1. You cannot select anything higher than S2 for the cars (maybe the F2007 is an exception), only in online freerun.

I think the theoretical laptime is a great idea, as is publishing the name of the driver with the best split in each sector, F1 style.

All the best
Maz

JoostBaksteen

About the PS3 PD online leaderboard, this weeks combo is on S2's, but the leaderboard is probably on S3's, same goes for the online runs with different tunings, so it's not always comparable. But with 'standard' timetrials we can definitely include those times 👍

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Most weeks (Including this week), we specify that the run must be done offline. That's why you don't see any of our racers on the PSN leaderboard.......

JoostBaksteen

Yes, that's a possibility, but we're trying avoid any posting guidelines. And I don't think it's needed as the system already automatically extracted all the times from week 54 correctly :-).

But there are a lot of different weeks with different data, so it's still some work to finish a beta version of the data import. When that's finished we'll develop the reports, after which we'll look at some new features we may want to introduce, discuss the system with Kevin etc. so there is still a lot to be done.

But as Steven said, more to follow when progress has been made.

If you guys have any other suggestions in the meantime, we're all ears.

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Thanks to steven for giving me the heads-up on your work here, Joost, I'm very enthusiastic about your software. Although I find the technique of time extraction very ambitious, it does seem to be working quite well from what I have seen on your beta site. As steven mentioned, hosting may be an issue, but I obviously have the infrastructure and I am eager to support the project and the WRS any way that I can. If you'd like to continue development on one of GTPlanet's servers, just let me know.

For Luxy2 we need 1 or 2 guys that understand

- php
- mysql
- regexing
- data parsing
- smarty

to assist Joost in maintaining the setup of the new leaderboard.

Any interested and 'qualified' please drop a line.

Thanks 👍