◆ SNAIL [GT1 Championship] Series

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Storm_SP17
Did you just post weightlifting as a reference to Motorsport? Seriously?

Track limits can only be penalised when there is evidence that the car and driver in question gains an advantage from the track limit infringements under scrutiny.

If a driver lifts off the throttle enough for a sustained period, be it 50% and more for a number of seconds, a warning for persistent track limits can be applied but only that.

Another thing, and this goes for the psychological aspect of participating in these events... if you actively force people to lose points for going remotely over the edge in the manner this is done, what you get is people that get caught in a heated fight but can't risk pulling the extra 10th of pace because it may or may not lose them points due to a minor miscalculation, perhaps drag... perhaps braking...

This in itself promotes ultra timid racing... which is no way to race!
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Please define sustained 50% lift, please define how many times a minor Miscalculation is, please explain how going OOB 8 significant times on major high speed turns on the exits with only half of them even involving at most a 50% lift off the throttle for a split second (less than it takes to shift a gear) please define where I have to explain myself to you?
 
Die_Birdy_Die
Please define sustained 50% lift, please define how many times a minor Miscalculation is, please explain how going OOB 8 significant times on major high speed turns on the exits with only half of them even involving at most a 50% lift off the throttle for a split second (less than it takes to shift a gear) please define where I have to explain myself to you?
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1 - 50% of the typical acceleration required in a zone that requires acceleration, sustained for as long as the car remains out of bounds.

2 - The factor of not being in racecars, only modified street cars with a 1/5 downforce and tyre wear longevity. Evolving overall car balance relative to the tyre grip levels on front and rear, evolution made quicker by minimal downforce preventing the cooking of tyres. Being in draft, car stepping out unexpectedly and correcting (sometimes over-correcting), general environmental distractions from this being a game played in a home.... there's more honeslty... need a comprehensive list?

3 - At high speed corners... going 50% throttle, when the corner itself dictates you should be able to use all of it, still generates enough of a lift to put you down a good 3 tenths on what you should be doing. If the lift takes only a split second, then that shows the level of severity in OOB being quite low indeed and in all fairness, not worth more than a warning. If each OOB only requires a split second of lift then he must have been extremely close to being within bounds but juuuust ever so slightlyyyy ran wide of them; thus why are you even bothering to ping them?

In any case, DEFINE "SPLIT SECOND" PLEASE. ;) I'm being sarcastic...
 
The time to lift 50% is before you run off, not after. Your goal should be all 4 wheels in bounds, with occasional 2 out. If you're running lap after lap planning to end up with 2 wheels out, you're bound to start picking up penalties.

Moving forward, what is the policy for Graham Hill (turn 3) at brands hatch? I've seen plenty a SNAIL driver end up completely on the bricks on Sunday nights. I've never bothered to file but I general try to stay off them.

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In all manners of Motorsports, IRL and virtually, the general consensus is that curbing counts as part of the track but allow only 2 wheels onto them. In the interest of safety, green zones were introduced outside certain curbs... but are not counted as part of the track.

Also, with how tyre/track evolution goes, telling someone they should 50% before they OOB is like telling someone to anticipate a slide and correct it before it happens.

In particular interest to Brands Hatch, 2 wheels on the bricks and 2 over the white line and onto the curb is not okay.

However... If I'm going by laughable logic, I'm going to say don't even get near the white line at the edge of track, much less use the curb. And definitely, defintiely don't attempt to put even so much as a wing mirror over the bricks... god forbid.
 
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This isn't really about simply going oob. It's about the belief that when you did go oob you lift to negate any advantage gained. Phisher was doing this per his understanding on GT1 expectations.

To then penalize someone for not doing it how you perceive it to be done ( which was not specified in the rules) seems a little broken in its concept.

Let's say phisher abused oob more then he should have. He did that understanding that a lift would compensate for this and negate any penalty. Thus allowing him to push as hard as possible to try and lose as much time as possible. When he went oob he adjusted for it.

I feel clarification and a modest penalty infraction at most would be the fair thing to do. Then going froward with revised rulings we can be sure to avoid this issue in the future.



Ps: @chuyler1 i think Storm is right there You can't lift before something goes wrong. A:You'd be Sunday drving not racing B: the reason for a lift is that you pushed hard all the way up to where you finally realize you've gone out. It's a reactionary event assuming your trying to go as fast as possible. Imo if your slowing down before hand your not really racing.

The only instance where I could see a premature slow down make sense. Is if you had a lead built up and you were simply be cautious as you had no reason to push it. Or extremely worn tyres
 
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In some cases, I will concede you simply don't know what is going to happen, which is very often when you're right behind someone and cannot see your usual braking point.

But consistently ending up outside the lines on Silverstone corners like Copse, Stowe, or Club means you are banking on running very wide to begin with and/or you have no idea that you missed the apex and the point at which you can roll full into the throttle. The actual mistake that leads you to end up OOB happens well beforehand, usually well before the apex and before you get back on the throttle. If you're car isn't set up right by mid corner, don't get on the throttle until it is. That's my point I'm trying to make. Race day isn't the time to be experimenting with early apexes and wide lines to see if they will stick.
 
All good points in some way or another. But we have a rules that are a guide and if broken will be dealt with by the league management, I hope. But because it is a game and not much "on the spot" rulings can be administered, if you do find your tires in the rough with a lack of grip, please do the right thing and stay out of the traffics way. BH is notorious for cars rolling back onto the track and adding to another wipe out. GL and easy on the first lap> You know who you are!
 
@chuyler1 the point being made in response is that sufficient actions are being taken in scenarios where an OOB has occured by a driver to limit the advantageous impact (if any) for it... note: sufficient actions.

You speak of apexes in going OOB, why? If you nail the apex (your first prompt for thinking you've got the exit nailed too) but still run wide... what then? Do you second guess yourself every lap? Do you nail the apex then FULLY lift ENTIRELY off the throttle on exit "just to make sure"? No.

What happens if you get unsettled on the apex, correct it but then as a result run into OOB territory... still have to lift ENTIRELY knowing you've already lost a chunk of time through an uncharacteristic twitch you needed to correct or face spinning out? No.

If OOB happens, as long as the driver takes it upon themself, and the stewards take a common sense approach to the why's and wherefore's, being tagged for OOB can be avoided. This is the point I feel @lllTrick was spot on with.

As stated, even if stewards still follow through on calling OOB, a different kind of punishment is needed although the contingencies for avoiding an advantage gained warrant no further action in my honest opinion... 1 championship point per infraction is borderline insanity.
 
chuyler1
Moving forward, what is the policy for Graham Hill (turn 3) at brands hatch? I've seen plenty a SNAIL driver end up completely on the bricks on Sunday nights. I've never bothered to file but I general try to stay off them.

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The bricks are OOB. 2 tires must stay on the rumble strip.
 
Reads like a bunch of nit picking.
Not something that would keep life and interest in GT-1.
 
Attended another SCCA Track Night today, this time at Thompson Speedway in CT. Tons of fun. Unlike my Mustang in this series, my '85 RX7 has a severe case of snap oversteer. I caught it numerous times but on the last session it finally bit me back and I wasn't able to correct fast enough and ended up in the dirt. No harm to me or the car...aside from pride.

Fastest lap in session 2 was a 1:35. In this video below my best lap is actually the first hot lap at 1:36. The rest of the laps were either messy or I had to lift to let other drivers by. The video, like our game, doesn't really show elevation very well. The braking zone into turn 1 is uphill, turn 4 drops downhill, Between 9 and 10 is another short uphill, just enough to hide the straight as you exit 9. It's a fun track and a great place to learn. I really like the flow between 7-8-9.



Thompson%20Map-numbers.jpg
 
Okay, time to chip in to this, unfortunately. (Yes, this post is directed towards you, @Die_Birdy_Die)

I do have some significant issues with the way these incident reports from Silverstone were handled, and the penalties which were levied on @Ph1sher and I.

First thing's first, at the time Silverstone was ran, there was no defined parameters which made a 'lift' a 'lift'. All that was in the rules was that if you were to run wide, you should make concessions to give back the advantage you gained. Believe it or not, running at 50% or even 75% throttle makes you go slower than 100% throttle. To say that @Ph1sher's partial lifts didn't count, then change the rules in the OP post-race, and go on to dock the man 11 points is an abuse of power.

Secondly, in a series where a win is only 16 points these penalties have way too much bearing on the outcome of championships. A stupid pit exit line violation costs you almost 20% of the points for a win? I firmly believe for such a small, harmless infraction that is way too much. But, however, if there was an accident as a result of that pit exit cut then yes a harsher penalty is called for. Let the championship be decided on the race track and not your own personal will to go review and nit pick everything, please.

I also believe I have been subject to an unfair process. While I did take responsibility for our accident at Silverstone and made concessions on-track, I was subject to in IR, I'm sure filed by you, against me, without any opportunity for me to represent myself in that decision to penalize me.
Incident Reports:

If, at anytime during race night, you feel you have been a victim of a race incident, please contact @Die_Birdy_Die, @racingchamp30, and the person who "caused" the incident as well, through the GTPlanet PM system.
We will look at the replay and take action we deem necessary.
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The bolded part of that quotation above is where I believe I was treated unfairly. Before the race I even told everyone in the room, and everyone was in agreement, that I would be able to stream and if there were any issues with latency that someone would let me know via. in-game mic telling me to turn it off. I confirmed with @Ph1sher after the race that at any point prior to our accident NOBODY told me that I was creating any issues and should turn off the feed. I had literally no idea what was going on until we were catapulted into the barriers.

To me, honestly, this whole situation here has just been a gross abuse of power, and should cease immediately if you want to retain the group of racers you have now. Yes, I am new here and because I'm new I'm sure you'll brush this off because my opinion literally doesn't even matter, but it needs to be said.

With all of that on the table now, I think I've said everything I've wanted to in regards to the Silverstone race review. If I find anything else that needs to be brought to attention I'll bring it up.

Respectfully,
Bambi
 
@Die_Birdy_Die

First off, Thank you @Storm_SP17 for your knowledge on OOB and how you run it in many very serious DRR / GTPlanet Endurance Series.

I've kept my mouth shut for awhile and instead go behind the scenes with my confusion / frustration. But I don't really speak up for myself that much because I enjoy to stay out of the drama, I rather race and let my racing due the speaking. Here we go..

A win is 16 points...a stupid pit exist violation is -3..When there is no car near you. Well does it really matter that much? Sure you want us to follow the lines in a strict matter. If there is a car entering that next corner, yes it matters then. The driver existing the pits should remain within that white line and brake if he needs to allow the faster driver into that corner.

What is a Lift?
- A lift is a removal of your gained advantage OR a lift is a shown respect for the track despite car going through a certain corner so slow / out of control. It is NOT NOT a COMPLETE removal. Now I received a PM from birdy called "hay" on Sunday Morning, and first says, "Do me a favour move your lines over a tire width you are borderline ob". As the race was going on for me Last Wednesday at Silverstone, I Know when I barely went off, so I lifted to 50%, 75% off so on. A car going 100% speed is faster than a car going 50% throttle. Right? I hope so. As of Silverstone, There was NO clear indication of You have to COMPLETELY remove your foot off the gas pedal. If there was.. We would all be aware of that before this season even started, or at least before Silverstone.

- Birdy, You have an absolute great series here with a lot of drivers, Fast Drivers. But If you're going to change the rules for OOB POST race at Silverstone. That is what I call unfair. No, There was not a rule within GT1, SNAIL, Nowhere where it states you must lift Completely off the pedal. If you want to state you must completely lift off completely the gas, ALL drivers within GT1 must be aware. We must be aware of all the rules. We try our best to follow those rules on Race Day.

So I get docked 11 points for lifting off borderline track limits. Was I trying to go off and gain an advantage? You would be Stupid if you thought so. My job is to race as clean and respect all drivers at all time. 11 points removal is harsh. Its simply.. Power abuse. Considering a win is 16 Points..And I lifted every time when I was Borderline OOB. If I'm going to get nit picked for every little move I do on the track..it just comes to the point where the racing doesn't become fun anymore, as of Silverstone I was following the rules, and get punished for that.

I know you are basically running this series alone Birdy, and that's not good at all. I know that as well as many League runners here on GTPlanet. You HAVE to have a reliable group of guys who can give you different perspectives, guys who will help you run the league smart. I am not going tell you how to run the league, You can figure that out. Though I do know there is drivers within this series that are MORE than willing to help you out.

A Championship weather its real life or on GT6 should be decided who can race the most clean consistent throughout the season, not by penalties, and looking for drivers going out of bounds by 1 centimeter and still lifting.


I want to thank everyone for chipping in their 2 cents on this entire situation, and its great hearing others perspectives. However, I will stand by my stance, as I know many other drivers will that this was handled in a very immature way, an abusive of power way. I do want this series to continue to grow and improve, but Birdy you need to get some people that YOU trust that can give you different perspectives.

Sincerely,
Phish
 
chuyler1
Attended another SCCA Track Night today, this time at Thompson Speedway in CT. Tons of fun. Unlike my Mustang in this series, my '85 RX7 has a severe case of snap oversteer. I caught it numerous times but on the last session it finally bit me back and I wasn't able to correct fast enough and ended up in the dirt. No harm to me or the car...aside from pride.

Fastest lap in session 2 was a 1:35. In this video below my best lap is actually the first hot lap at 1:36. The rest of the laps were either messy or I had to lift to let other drivers by. The video, like our game, doesn't really show elevation very well. The braking zone into turn 1 is uphill, turn 4 drops downhill, Between 9 and 10 is another short uphill, just enough to hide the straight as you exit 9. It's a fun track and a great place to learn. I really like the flow between 7-8-9.



Thompson%20Map-numbers.jpg
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I wish I knew you were there. I had to be at the office, otherwise I'd have been instructing. If I knew you were going to be there I would've had you go and whack that clown in the nuts with the Anderson Cooper haircut and the leaky and broken VWs. :lol:
 
Marcus Garvey
I wish I knew you were there. I had to be at the office, otherwise I'd have been instructing. If I knew you were going to be there I would've had you go and whack that clown in the nuts with the Anderson Cooper haircut and the leaky and broken VWs. :lol:
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Sorry, I'll let you know next time :) I had a day of instruction last month at Palmer, in the rain. Learned a lot. Actually getting on the track with any car puts this game into perspective.
 
chuyler1
Sorry, I'll let you know next time :) I had a day of instruction last month at Palmer, in the rain. Learned a lot. Actually getting on the track with any car puts this game into perspective.
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No need to apologise :lol: I never really disclosed any affiliation. For anyone else reading that is planning on a TNIA event, feel free to drop me a line as there are sometimes deals to be had last minute, etc. This year seems to be filling up faster than last year so the opportunities are less common, but I can always take a look for you. Worst case, I can tell you whose balls to bust and how. ;)

Edit: As well, anyone who will be at PWC at Lime Rock feel free to drop me a line. I'm not officiating this year and have no free passes to give, but if the timing works out you might meet some cool folks, GTA Silverstone TV Stars, and some drivers.
 
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If you're talking Memorial Day Weekend, I'll be there with my Mazda peeps. We usually have a function tent near the skidpad and a bunch of us camp out for the weekend. I won't have my RX7, I'll be towing a little scamp trailer with my CX9.
 
chuyler1
If you're talking Memorial Day Weekend, I'll be there with my Mazda peeps. We usually have a function tent near the skidpad and a bunch of us camp out for the weekend. I won't have my RX7, I'll be towing a little scamp trailer with my CX9.
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Ahh, the car corral. I will not be camping as *everyone else* is at Pocono for the majors or NH for the NER regional, and it's not a bad ride for me anyway. I will likely be about throughout the day with no particular agenda. Not spotting, flagging, or anything this time; so I get to play spectator and enjoy the weekend this time. If you see a bright blue Civic in all sorts of semi-official looking dress, that will be me. If you see a guy sitting on a couch smoking Luckys; that's also me. I will also likely be at the show Sunday, although whether I'm in the Civic or the Monte will depend on the weather.
 
Yeah, I have some friends racing spec IT7 at NH that weekend but Limerock is a long standing tradition with my other group of friends.
 
Whitetail
Okay, time to chip in to this, unfortunately. (Yes, this post is directed towards you, @Die_Birdy_Die)

I do have some significant issues with the way these incident reports from Silverstone were handled, and the penalties which were levied on @Ph1sher and I.

First thing's first, at the time Silverstone was ran, there was no defined parameters which made a 'lift' a 'lift'. All that was in the rules was that if you were to run wide, you should make concessions to give back the advantage you gained. Believe it or not, running at 50% or even 75% throttle makes you go slower than 100% throttle. To say that @Ph1sher's partial lifts didn't count, then change the rules in the OP post-race, and go on to dock the man 11 points is an abuse of power.

Secondly, in a series where a win is only 16 points these penalties have way too much bearing on the outcome of championships. A stupid pit exit line violation costs you almost 20% of the points for a win? I firmly believe for such a small, harmless infraction that is way too much. But, however, if there was an accident as a result of that pit exit cut then yes a harsher penalty is called for. Let the championship be decided on the race track and not your own personal will to go review and nit pick everything, please.

I also believe I have been subject to an unfair process. While I did take responsibility for our accident at Silverstone and made concessions on-track, I was subject to in IR, I'm sure filed by you, against me, without any opportunity for me to represent myself in that decision to penalize me.

The bolded part of that quotation above is where I believe I was treated unfairly. Before the race I even told everyone in the room, and everyone was in agreement, that I would be able to stream and if there were any issues with latency that someone would let me know via. in-game mic telling me to turn it off. I confirmed with @Ph1sher after the race that at any point prior to our accident NOBODY told me that I was creating any issues and should turn off the feed. I had literally no idea what was going on until we were catapulted into the barriers.

To me, honestly, this whole situation here has just been a gross abuse of power, and should cease immediately if you want to retain the group of racers you have now. Yes, I am new here and because I'm new I'm sure you'll brush this off because my opinion literally doesn't even matter, but it needs to be said.

With all of that on the table now, I think I've said everything I've wanted to in regards to the Silverstone race review. If I find anything else that needs to be brought to attention I'll bring it up.

Respectfully,
Bambi
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Ph1sher
@Die_Birdy_Die

First off, Thank you @Storm_SP17 for your knowledge on OOB and how you run it in many very serious DRR / GTPlanet Endurance Series.

I've kept my mouth shut for awhile and instead go behind the scenes with my confusion / frustration. But I don't really speak up for myself that much because I enjoy to stay out of the drama, I rather race and let my racing due the speaking. Here we go..

A win is 16 points...a stupid pit exist violation is -3..When there is no car near you. Well does it really matter that much? Sure you want us to follow the lines in a strict matter. If there is a car entering that next corner, yes it matters then. The driver existing the pits should remain within that white line and brake if he needs to allow the faster driver into that corner.

What is a Lift?
- A lift is a removal of your gained advantage OR a lift is a shown respect for the track despite car going through a certain corner so slow / out of control. It is NOT NOT a COMPLETE removal. Now I received a PM from birdy called "hay" on Sunday Morning, and first says, "Do me a favour move your lines over a tire width you are borderline ob". As the race was going on for me Last Wednesday at Silverstone, I Know when I barely went off, so I lifted to 50%, 75% off so on. A car going 100% speed is faster than a car going 50% throttle. Right? I hope so. As of Silverstone, There was NO clear indication of You have to COMPLETELY remove your foot off the gas pedal. If there was.. We would all be aware of that before this season even started, or at least before Silverstone.

- Birdy, You have an absolute great series here with a lot of drivers, Fast Drivers. But If you're going to change the rules for OOB POST race at Silverstone. That is what I call unfair. No, There was not a rule within GT1, SNAIL, Nowhere where it states you must lift Completely off the pedal. If you want to state you must completely lift off completely the gas, ALL drivers within GT1 must be aware. We must be aware of all the rules. We try our best to follow those rules on Race Day.

So I get docked 11 points for lifting off borderline track limits. Was I trying to go off and gain an advantage? You would be Stupid if you thought so. My job is to race as clean and respect all drivers at all time. 11 points removal is harsh. Its simply.. Power abuse. Considering a win is 16 Points..And I lifted every time when I was Borderline OOB. If I'm going to get nit picked for every little move I do on the track..it just comes to the point where the racing doesn't become fun anymore, as of Silverstone I was following the rules, and get punished for that.

I know you are basically running this series alone Birdy, and that's not good at all. I know that as well as many League runners here on GTPlanet. You HAVE to have a reliable group of guys who can give you different perspectives, guys who will help you run the league smart. I am not going tell you how to run the league, You can figure that out. Though I do know there is drivers within this series that are MORE than willing to help you out.

A Championship weather its real life or on GT6 should be decided who can race the most clean consistent throughout the season, not by penalties, and looking for drivers going out of bounds by 1 centimeter and still lifting.


I want to thank everyone for chipping in their 2 cents on this entire situation, and its great hearing others perspectives. However, I will stand by my stance, as I know many other drivers will that this was handled in a very immature way, an abusive of power way. I do want this series to continue to grow and improve, but Birdy you need to get some people that YOU trust that can give you different perspectives.

Sincerely,
Phish
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No worries guy I'll make it all easy for you...


I QUIT!​
 
@Whitey093 can we get the excel sheet setup through you for tonight's racing?
We will have to transition things for at least the rest of the season. Decide after that what direction can be taken.
 
If whitey doesn't have permission to access it i can give it to him. Unless the bird made a new spreadsheet
 
Ohh my dear god , are you guys happy now that birdy have said he will quit , and that because off some people not driving after the RULES and apparently cant accept when there are given penalty`s because off it , fair or not , its not at all fair either to begin getting personal and attacking birdy for doing his VOLOUNTEER job , its no secret that it all started because I was watching the stream on youtube that phisher made and saw him lap after lap going against the rules and simply couldnt accept that , so I looked the race through from phisher`s car in the game I saved and on the first 14 laps I saw 14 rule breaks , is that fair in any way , NO it isnt , but that was it for my part , as Iam not good enough at english too express my thoughts clearly enough to not be misunderstood , but no way I´ll drive in a series where people do as they like regarding the rules......
 
I think birdie deleted the season. what a classy guy! lets recap shall we....

1st
birdie makes some really bad judgement calls and refuses to discuss it with anyone. Takes a hardline unilateral approach to the whole situation. (keep in mind this has happened before so really its not surprise it has happened again.)

2nd
Naturally a lot of people are not going to take kindly to someone handling racing infraction with all the care and concern of a Louisiana red neck. And so issues/ concerns are raised

3rd:
Instead of considering what is being said and listening to people who know far more about racing. And pretty much every single other aspect of the problems there in. Or considering what concerns others might have and trying to come to fair or understanding compromises or solutions. Due to the fact that BIRDIE messed up the rules and wasn't clear on what was to be expected. He (birdie) ignorantly plows forward barking commands and sighting definitions that make little to no sense to anyone reading them.

4th
He then tries to rewrite the rules AFTER THE FACT. And justifies what has been said and what was in place currently to back up the weakest argument i've ever seen. All the while STILL refusing to even take council from someone on the matter. Instead trying to do it all himself.

5th
Then when the issues get to detailed and the wording too hard to comprehend. He QUITS!!! and just so everyone knows he also tried to delete the season so that no one else can continue with it. Like he's the only one in the world who put this together and made any of it happen.


These unbelievably selfish acts show just what everyone has had to deal with. It's pathetic and sad but i guess in the end it shows that when the cards are down this is what Birdie would rather do then try and work things out and get things back on track.

SUPER SAD HOW THIS WAS ALL HANDLED. AND SO UNNECESSARY! but at least we now know what to expect going forward.
 
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SRT DK Racing
Ohh my dear god , are you guys happy now that birdy have said he will quit , and that because off some people not driving after the RULES and apparently cant accept when there are given penalty`s because off it , fair or not , its not at all fair either to begin getting personal and attacking birdy for doing his VOLOUNTEER job , its no secret that it all started because I was watching the stream on youtube that phisher made and saw him lap after lap going against the rules and simply couldnt accept that , so I looked the race through from phisher`s car in the game I saved and on the first 14 laps I saw 14 rule breaks , is that fair in any way , NO it isnt , but that was it for my part , as Iam not good enough at english too express my thoughts clearly enough to not be misunderstood , but no way I´ll drive in a series where people do as they like regarding the rules......
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you don't understand what the discussion was about. fisher wasn't trying to get out of penalties. He was following birdie horrible vague instructions. and then STILL got penalized for them instead of working out something fair and compromising. he hardball the whole thing while doing it by himself without and secondary advice on the matter at hand. thats the OMG. birdie quitting was the right thing to do. but the way in which is quit was cowardly and selfish and sad.
 
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