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  • Thread starter zer05ive
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Don't you get a shortcut penalty on Daytona if you stay below the yellow line too long?

What about the concrete section in the 4th tunnel on DFR-Reverse?

Jump to 1:20 to see which one I'm talking about.

 
irmopars
I would have to rewatch the replay on that but i believe it was because you guys were 2-3 wide going into turn 1? (correct me if im wrong). With the speed gain i was having i just made the pass, didnt think if it was illegal :/

Going into turn 1 was pretty sweet eh :sly:
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That didn't bother me. If Mopar is a good enough driver to pull off that kind of move without crashing us all, then more power to him. 👍
 
I'm not going to be able to make it to this Sunday's races. Got informed the Blue Man Group is in town and we're going.

Driver list updated.
 
zer05ive
^This, however, might be harder to police. I agree that the the giant concrete curb/section on Deep Forest should not be cut, but this is something that can be done on every lap to lower lap times.

This is an entirely different situation than the yellow line on Daytona Road Course. Drivers don't benefit from crossing the yellow line at Daytona if they are running by themselves. Therefore, there's no need to check if anyone's doing it when no other driver is around.

However, since drivers do benefit from cutting the curb at Deep Forest on every lap, who's going to watch every replay of every lap by every driver to check for this? Thoughts? Suggestions?
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I was talking about deep forest only. Silly Zer0!
 
zer05ive
^This, however, might be harder to police. I agree that the the giant concrete curb/section on Deep Forest should not be cut, but this is something that can be done on every lap to lower lap times.

This is an entirely different situation than the yellow line on Daytona Road Course. Drivers don't benefit from crossing the yellow line at Daytona if they are running by themselves. Therefore, there's no need to check if anyone's doing it when no other driver is around.

However, since drivers do benefit from cutting the curb at Deep Forest on every lap, who's going to watch every replay of every lap by every driver to check for this? Thoughts? Suggestions?
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As to policing this, it's not feasible unless as you say, someone is willing to watch every lap by every driver in every Division.

Within our policy/rules and the GTP OLR we should be able to define what is part of a track and what is not. The GTP OLR has provisions for Race Specifics defined at the Event level and we can use that to set up the boundaries of Deep Forest. We'll have to trust that our members will not intentionally abuse those areas that can't be policed.

I have faith :)
 
I would hope that everyone here is mature enough to respect the boundaries of the tracks. Maybe we don't all know the "official" boundaries on every track, but common sense goes a long way. My general rule is to always keep 2 tires on the rumble strips. I know a lot of "pubbers" have the mindset that if the game doesn't give you a penalty then it's ok, but that's not correct. In other leagues I've raced in, we actually raced with penalties off (invisible cars don't happen in real life) and full damage on (take responsibility for contact). The racers knew what was expected of them and, generally, there were no issues.
 
the OLR is pretty specific on the case. And now that I've read it more in detail, racing may get a little more interesting! Back when we were having discussions about passing. We had asked what is far enough to consider a line yours. I stated that if your at least half way up on a car, and your on the inside, then the inside line is yours. Most people though were of the opinion that unless you had passed the car in front, then you must concede the corner to who's in front of you. However, while scanning a bit deeper, I found this:
08: Corner Rights:


A:
When approaching the turn/apex of turn, the car which "holds" the inner side of turn has entrance-advantage and other driver(s) must refrain from endangering him by his actions.

B:
You must establish substantial overlap with the car ahead before they reach the corner’s turn-in point to have the right to drive up their inside, or to expect them to leave inside room for you. At least the front of your car should be up to the driver’s position in the ahead car. The ahead driver has the right to be fully committed to the racing line of their choice without any interference if there was no substantial overlap before he turned in.

C:
If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.
This backs my train of thought, that once your on the inside of the car, and further then half way up on the car, then you have rights to the inside line and dont need to back off.
 
spooble
I would hope that everyone here is mature enough to respect the boundaries of the tracks. Maybe we don't all know the "official" boundaries on every track, but common sense goes a long way. My general rule is to always keep 2 tires on the rumble strips. I know a lot of "pubbers" have the mindset that if the game doesn't give you a penalty then it's ok, but that's not correct. In other leagues I've raced in, we actually raced with penalties off (invisible cars don't happen in real life) and full damage on (take responsibility for contact). The racers knew what was expected of them and, generally, there were no issues.
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I like races with heavy damage and no penalties, however. In a league like this. the format is right on. But that is why on my touge nights, I run damage. its a much better deterrent then a penalty.
 
kcheeb
As to policing this, it's not feasible unless as you say, someone is willing to watch every lap by every driver in every Division.
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Okay, I will say officially that someone is willing to watch every lap by every driver. Therefore, if replays show that anyone intentionally abuses those areas, their points from that race will be deleted from their final tally for the night.

kcheeb
Within our policy/rules and the GTP OLR we should be able to define what is part of a track and what is not. The GTP OLR has provisions for Race Specifics defined at the Event level and we can use that to set up the boundaries of Deep Forest. We'll have to trust that our members will not intentionally abuse those areas that can't be policed.

I have faith :)
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I have faith too. We'll use the honor system and trust that our drivers do not violate the policy on this. If they get caught either by another driver during the race or by replays after the race, they are subject to disqualification.

spooble
I would hope that everyone here is mature enough to respect the boundaries of the tracks. Maybe we don't all know the "official" boundaries on every track, but common sense goes a long way. My general rule is to always keep 2 tires on the rumble strips. I know a lot of "pubbers" have the mindset that if the game doesn't give you a penalty then it's ok, but that's not correct. In other leagues I've raced in, we actually raced with penalties off (invisible cars don't happen in real life) and full damage on (take responsibility for contact). The racers knew what was expected of them and, generally, there were no issues.
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I like your take on this in general, but I feel like your rule of 2 tires on the rumble strip is too lenient. If common sense is the guiding factor here, shouldn't the rule be that 2 tires must remain on the track? Not only does that make more sense to me, it'd also be easier to police. If the rumble strip is the the key guideline, it opens the door for questions like, "what counts as a rumble strip?" and "what if there is no rumble strip?"
 
I will volunteer to watch the races. Just tell me exactly what I'm looking for. Is it the rumble strip or is it the white line that defines the outside of the track.
 
zer05ive
I like your take on this in general, but I feel like your rule of 2 tires on the rumble strip is too lenient. If common sense is the guiding factor here, shouldn't the rule be that 2 tires must remain on the track? Not only does that make more sense to me, it'd also be easier to police. If the rumble strip is the the key guideline, it opens the door for questions like, "what counts as a rumble strip?" and "what if there is no rumble strip?"
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You're right, zero. I should clarify. I'm not a very consistent driver. While racing, my aim is to keep 2 tires on the track (actual road surface). But in tight, high-speed corners (the bus stop comes to mind) I often miss my mark. I count the rumble strip as the grey area and don't generally think of it as a "dirty" turn unless all tires miss to the inside.
 
"If you have to ask, it's probably illegal."

That should cover most any question about legal lines. :)


If Bowler's willing to go through the work of watching all of the replays, 👍 to him.

Otherwise, cheating during qualifying doesn't bother me much (and can't be replayed, anyway). I won't do it. It's on the head/conscience of the person who does, but in the end it's not going to help them, much. After all, when he hits that turn where he cheated during qualifying, he has to run an entirely different line, and may be thrown off just enough to slow down, make a mistake, or allow a pass. If he continues on that illegal line during the race, people are going to see it and call it out after the race, prompting an examination.

Basically, stay on the track. I agree with the definitions put forth thus far.
 
JLBowler
I will volunteer to watch the races. Just tell me exactly what I'm looking for. Is it the rumble strip or is it the white line that defines the outside of the track.
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Okay, cool. Bowler is the official league steward. Well, at least for D1 anyways..

As for exactly what he'll be looking for, that's still open for discussion. Based on the comments so far, here's my rough draft on a policy regarding curb-cutting and shortcuts:

Drivers must keep at least two wheels completely on the flat track surface at all times. Drivers who allow their two inside wheels to leave the flat track surface (even partially) in an attempt to gain any kind of advantage will be subject to disqualification.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns?
 
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Sounds good. Just be sure to post on the OP. Since OLR states that the rumble strip is the last bastion of hope.
 
Rallywagon
Sounds good. Just be sure to post on the OP. Since OLR states that the rumble strip is the last bastion of hope.
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What section is that listed under? I checked earlier and again just now and all I saw was this:

E:
Curbs, sidewalks/pavements are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.
 
zer05ive
As for exactly what he'll be looking for, that's still open for discussion. Based on the comments so far, here's my rough draft on a policy regarding kerb cutting and shortcuts:

Drivers must keep at least two wheels completely on the flat track surface at all times. Drivers who allow their two inside wheels to leave the flat track surface (even partially) in an attempt to gain any kind of advantage will be subject to disqualification.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns?
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I like the simplicity of the statement, it defines our intent nicely.

But, here's a problem I see with using general terms like 'flat track surface'. At Laguna Seca the first hairpin has a huge flat paved surface to the right of the corner. It has a nice line and on the first lap, cones, that I think are intended to define the right most limit of the track.

Given the above statement, I could use as much of the area to the right as I wanted to gain a better angle to the corner. Which I believe is not intended to be part of the track.

Trial Mountain (???) has large yellow lines marking off a section of 'flat track surface' in two places. Are they part of the intended track or not.

To continue down this road, sadly, I think the limits of the track would pretty much need to be defined on a track by track basis. Or at least the exceptions.

Not trying to be a pain, but definitions with respect to limits can be difficult to get air tight. Without going into more detail than I think we're prepared to or should go to, for a game league :)

[/ducks and rolls]
 
B:
Two wheels (except when airborne, where the vertical projection of the car onto the track counts) must be in contact with the track/circuit which includes the rumble strips and footpaths, but not grassed areas.
 
zer05ive
Okay, I will say officially that someone is willing to watch every lap by every driver. Therefore, if replays show that anyone intentionally abuses those areas, their points from that race will be deleted from their final tally for the night.

I have faith too. We'll use the honor system and trust that our drivers do not violate the policy on this. If they get caught either by another driver during the race or by replays after the race, they are subject to disqualification.

I like your take on this in general, but I feel like your rule of 2 tires on the rumble strip is too lenient. If common sense is the guiding factor here, shouldn't the rule be that 2 tires must remain on the track? Not only does that make more sense to me, it'd also be easier to police. If the rumble strip is the the key guideline, it opens the door for questions like, "what counts as a rumble strip?" and "what if there is no rumble strip?"
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Everyone has raced these tracks numerous times and we should know how they should be raced. Let's race them they way there supposed to be raced and lets keep two wheels on the track. I would have no problem watching every replay to make sure everyone is keeping clean in this regard. But have faith in my fellow D2 racers. I see the honor system working is this regard.
 
I think general racing rules consider rumble strips as part of the track. Over at CRAP, I run a weekly time trial series, and conveniently enough at Deep Forest Raceway we came into a discussion about what constituted the edge of track boundaries.

Here were the rules that I came up with, and they were not necessarily MY rules that I made up. Things I read from various sources and couldn't find anything discrediting that these options were deemed as edge of the track in motorsports. I asked people to discredit it and no one did.

Can be any of these:

White line only --- Edge of Track is the white line
White line then Rumble Strip --- Rumble Strip is edge of track.
White line then curb --- Edge of track is the curb
Tarmac to grass --- end of tarmac is edge of track

After I set those, I think people took it as a bit too restrained, but to me it feels right.

If that helps any, as I'm just a lowly div 3 racer, but I've had to tackle this issue before.

@kcheeb

I've seen in some racing series on Laguna where they prohibit going to the far right at the straight for a better turn in at the hairpin.
 
Infinital-NG
I think general racing rules consider rumble strips as part of the track. Over at CRAP, I run a weekly time trial series, and conveniently enough at Deep Forest Raceway we came into a discussion about what constituted the edge of track boundaries.

Here were the rules that I came up with, and they were not necessarily MY rules that I made up. Things I read from various sources and couldn't find anything discrediting that these options were deemed as edge of the track in motorsports. I asked people to discredit it and no one did.

Can be any of these:

White line only --- Edge of Track is the white line
White line then Rumble Strip --- Rumble Strip is edge of track.
White line then curb --- Edge of track is the curb
Tarmac to grass --- end of tarmac is edge of track

After I set those, I think people took it as a bit too restrained, but to me it feels right.

If that helps any, as I'm just a lowly div 3 racer, but I've had to tackle this issue before.

@kcheeb

I've seen in some racing series on Laguna where they prohibit going to the far right at the straight for a better turn in at the hairpin.
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Zero has set the rules: Do not pass below the yellow line at Daytona and keep two wheels on the track at all times. That's it!
Let's move on to practice and have good tight clean racing.
 
Infinital-NG
Here were the rules that I came up with, and they were not necessarily MY rules that I made up. Things I read from various sources and couldn't find anything discrediting that these options were deemed as edge of the track in motorsports. I asked people to discredit it and no one did.

Can be any of these:

White line only --- Edge of Track is the white line
White line then Rumble Strip --- Rumble Strip is edge of track.
White line then curb --- Edge of track is the curb
Tarmac to grass --- end of tarmac is edge of track

After I set those, I think people took it as a bit too restrained, but to me it feels right.
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That's laid out nicely, off the top of my head I can't think of a way around them 👍

Infinital-NG
If that helps any, as I'm just a lowly div 3 racer, but I've had to tackle this issue before.
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Infinital, there's no lowly anywhere in S.N.A.I.L. :)

Infinital-NG
@kcheeb

I've seen in some racing series on Laguna where they prohibit going to the far right at the straight for a better turn in at the hairpin.
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That was my point, exceptions would need to be explicitly stated. Your four rules from above handle that situation superbly 👍
 
fzappa
Zero has set the rules: Do not pass below the yellow line at Daytona and keep two wheels on the track at all times. That's it!
Let's move on to practice and have good tight clean racing.
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Just offering my advice as I had been there before with edge of track discussions.


I didn't say that was the way, just what I had done for another place. It's his club, it's his rules. I will respect that.

Sorry, I'll keep it to myself next time.
 
zer05ive
What section is that listed under? I checked earlier and again just now and all I saw was this:

E:
Curbs, sidewalks/pavements are not part of the track unless otherwise stated in the Race Specifics section of any given event.
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Same section as yours

B:
Two wheels (except when airborne, where the vertical projection of the car onto the track counts) must be in contact with the track/circuit which includes the rumble strips and footpaths, but not grassed areas

haha, spooble super ninja'd me!
 
fzappa
Zero has set the rules: Do not pass below the yellow line at Daytona and keep two wheels on the track at all times. That's it!
Let's move on to practice and have good tight clean racing.
Click to expand...

Actually, Zero said:

Based on the comments so far, here's my rough draft on a policy regarding curb-cutting and shortcuts:

Drivers must keep at least two wheels completely on the flat track surface at all times. Drivers who allow their two inside wheels to leave the flat track surface (even partially) in an attempt to gain any kind of advantage will be subject to disqualification.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Concerns?

(I bolded a few words for emphasis)
 
Infinital-NG
Just offering my advice as I had been there before with edge of track discussions.


I didn't say that was the way, just what I had done for another place. It's his club, it's his rules. I will respect that.

Sorry, I'll keep it to myself next time.
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Please don't keep it to yourself.

Zer0 asked for thoughts, suggestions and concerns, your and everyone's feedback is appreciated.

EDIT: +1 for spooble 👍
 

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