...

[kikie]

The thing is, you don't need to have real life racing experience to know when a simulator has its game engine upside down. It's enough to own a (preferrably) rear wheel drive car, find a large empty tarmac area and start messing around and feeling your cars limits.

That's what I do IRL. I take private lessons (for 5 years now), car control, defensive, offensive. My instructor is a real professional (brother of ex F3000 pilot Jeffrey Van Hooydonk). I took exams in two major auto training school and I passed both exams (practical => car control in all of it's aspects). I know for sure that games are not really as realistic as IRL. GT5p or pc sims are not truely realistic. They maybe come close but they are not realistic. If pc and console games had 100% realistic physics then all the cars in all the games/sims would handle exactly the same in every game but that is not the case. So all the games/sims on pc/console would use the same physics engine and they could concentrate on other aspects of the game (graphics, game play etc...). Some sims are more realistic than others.
These games still have to be fun to play. If they had true realistic handling, nobody would buy these games because there are too difficult to play (racing cars, not simple stock cars like in GT5p). If real life racing car were as easy as in the games, with a true realistic physics engine, than everybody could become a Michael Shumacher! And I'm not even talking about the G-force, the high speeds, fear of crashing, I'm only talking about the car physics (in all of it's aspects e.g. tire physics, handling etc...).

Experimenting with oversteer has always been a benchmark for me when testing a simulator,

Then you're missing a lot of/very important information!

This is also why using real life race drivers for development aid usually doesn't make simulator better in means of physics. Real race drivers are so used in the G-forces for car feedback, so when they do not feel those in a simulation,

And you can?
You said it yourself that you use oversteer as a benchmark to see if a game has realistic handling. Then you say that real life race car drivers can't give enough information to make the physics in a game more realistic.

they can not understand what is really happening with the car.

So, what you are saying is that you are better than real life race car drivers?
They do not understand what is really happing with the car (your words exactly), (ingame I guess) but you know exactly when a game has realistic handling by just driving with a car and oversteer a bit.
I guess that all major game developers have to hire you!

There are thousands of variables in real life car racing, but you can get pretty damn close with a proper simulation.

Read my previous post again.

So the physics in a game are not realistic. They may come close but not realistic like everybody says!

Richard Burns rally comes vey, very close though.

That is what I have been saying all long. The physics engine can't be 100% realistic (with the present computer gaming technology) but it can come close.

I can't even talk about GRID. Tried the demo and it was such utter arcade hell that I would prefer sticking forks in to my eyes rather than playing it one more second.

GRID is fun but it is no match for true hardcore sims or even GT5p IMO.

 

[adlyco]

LOL, rFactor is definitely a *sim* and not a *game*. You can believe LFS to be whatever you want, but to write-off rFactor so easily just doesn't make sense. I myself have found a new appreciation for LFS in past weeks, but that doesn't discount the quality of rFactor (especially in the hands of the exceptional mod community... one area where LFS falls completely short).

No, thats no exactly what I meant. I was intending that comment to be taken objectively, in that Rfactor, GT, Forza etc are built to be a game first so that they appeal to a mass audience, whereas LFS is set up to be a simulation first, where the community is expected to create their own game around it. I never meant to belittle Rfactor or any other game, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for your work!

This is turning out to be a cool thread, and even better than that is the fact that for the first time we have a GT game that can hold it's own against the heavyweight PC sims 👍

 

[scabbyhorse2]

theres something about the steering in GT5P, not 100% what it is or if i'm just imagining it but there always seems to be some kind of steering aid
sometimes it takes longer to go lock to lock that other times, like if you're going in to a fast corner and try to steer full left or right lock it wont want to put it on full lock, it will eventually, but not straight away
if you have got it a bit sideways and need to put on full opposite lock it snaps right round
this is observed using the cockpit view

anyone else get this ?

 

[Zer0]

theres something about the steering in GT5P, not 100% what it is or if i'm just imagining it but there always seems to be some kind of steering aid
sometimes it takes longer to go lock to lock that other times, like if you're going in to a fast corner and try to steer full left or right lock it wont want to put it on full lock, it will eventually, but not straight away
if you have got it a bit sideways and need to put on full opposite lock it snaps right round
this is observed using the cockpit view

anyone else get this ?

This?:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2877495#post2877495

Turn off power assist and active steering.

 

[scabbyhorse2]

im using the sixaxis...i've got all the aids off but there's still something that controls how fast/much you can steer, going round the first corner of suzuka i can have the stick pushed 100% right but the car will only steer about 30%


as i say that's with a controller I dunno if it's different using a wheel ?

 

[panjandrum]

I looked into other Racing sims and discovered that none of them have the exact combination that makes the Gran Turismo series perfect for me, which is:

1) Fairly realistic physics
2) A huge number of real cars, modeled to drive like the real-life cars
3) Extremely realistically rendered real-world tracks
4) Wonderfully done fantasy tracks

I simply love discovering, in some limited way, what it would be like to drive many of these wonderful cars, both historic and modern.

I couldn't find any other Sim which has all those characteristics. Sure, some of them did 1 or even 2 of these things extremely well, but none of them covered all the bases like Gran Turismo does.

im using the sixaxis...i've got all the aids off but there's still something that controls how fast/much you can steer, going round the first corner of suzuka i can have the stick pushed 100% right but the car will only steer about 30%

This is because turning the wheels too far can actually result in understeer. What you need to do is turn the wheels less than 100% (much less in most cases), and the car will actually turn in better. Another tip, if you are in a corner and understeering, is to turn the wheels back towards "center" slightly instead of turning them further. Often this will allow the tires to grip better and reduce understeer. It is counter-intuitive, but it works.

 

[unimental]

No, thats no exactly what I meant. I was intending that comment to be taken objectively, in that Rfactor, GT, Forza etc are built to be a game first so that they appeal to a mass audience, whereas LFS is set up to be a simulation first, where the community is expected to create their own game around it. I never meant to belittle Rfactor or any other game, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be paid for your work!

Your quote about LFS is actually more pertinent to rFactor, given the absolutely gigantic mod and league community and bare-bones base. Check out rFactor Central to see just how big it really is. One could spend months with it and never play the same tracks/cars/series twice.

LFS is more regulated in nature, which is a good thing for online competition. This is a similar approach to what iRacing will be taking when it launches shortly (finally).

 

[kikie]

I heard that iRacing will be very expensive. Is this true?

 

[adlyco]

Your quote about LFS is actually more pertinent to rFactor, given the absolutely gigantic mod and league community and bare-bones base. Check out rFactor Central to see just how big it really is. One could spend months with it and never play the same tracks/cars/series twice.

Yes you are right, but it's not quite what I meant Sorry, I'm probably not making myself clear (my bad!).

Rfactor was designed to be modded by the community and is sold primarily on it's flexibility and expandability, with the physics taking second place. LFS on the other hand is sold primarily on it's simulation aspects, with next to no game elements included, therefore demanding that the community set up it's own leagues etc to create the game. I'm trying to show that we need to measure against a different yardstick here.

I personally can excuse GT, Rfactor etc discrepancies with the simulation because they provide a better overall gaming experience than LFS.

I heard that iRacing will be very expensive. Is this true?

Yes it will, which is a shame because it looks like being very good. pricing is here: http://www.iracing.com/news_230108.htm

 

[Zer0]

im using the sixaxis...i've got all the aids off but there's still something that controls how fast/much you can steer, going round the first corner of suzuka i can have the stick pushed 100% right but the car will only steer about 30%


as i say that's with a controller I dunno if it's different using a wheel ?

On controller the steering inputs are tweaked to made the game more friendly, stop the car and try fast turning full left and right and you can see on the replay the wheels going slowly. Playing with an steering wheel the inputs are direct 1:1.

 

[Biggles]

Interesting discussion. As a long-time Mac user, I've never been able to try PC sims. This will change when I get my next, Intel-based Mac.

I just wanted to throw something else out there:

one of the things missing from the game driving experience is the physical sensations of driving. I am using a Buttkicker, which provides a certain amount of physical input to your body (similar to the FFB from the wheel), but as it works now, the feedback from the Buttkicker is based entirely on noise cues, which are pretty limited in the accuracy of what they can communicate.

Does anyone have an idea how practical it would be to programme a device like the Buttkicker to respond to software input within the game (like the tires beginning to slip, for example) in the same way that FFB works? This could add a whole new level of realism to simulation for the average gamer.

 

[kikie]

As far as I know, the developer of the buttkicker (didn't know this thing existed until now) should implement electronics that could extract data from the game engine.

This in combination with a moving simulator platform!

 

[RedOak]

I've played RACE, GTR and GTR2, rFactor and some Nascars... on a "game experience" point of view, i think RACE offers the best experience of the lot, GTR2 in close second. However, talking about "game experience" again... i've put in a few hours on the GRID demo (xbox360) and i must say it really captivated me. The graphics are not as good as GT5 (of course), but they really got the race feeling right.

One thing GT5 lacks is "ambiance"... it feels stale and not very exciting. GRID on the other hand, which is on part with RACE '07 i think, gives a lot more of a "Race" feeling...

The attention to "IMPORTANT" details are way more present in those sims then GT5... mainly the very hard edged suspensions... when you go over apex or bumps in RACE or GRID, you realllllly feel it... its noisy, surprising, sharp and sudden, while in GT5, its more like jumping on a trampoline... I think the best example of that is the first jump in Eiger Nordwand... the cars swoop up and somehow, land very casually back on the tarmac, no fuss... this is the most unrealistic part of the GT5's physics... In Contrast, putting the same scenario in RACE or GRID, when landing, the car overload its suspension, the car's bottom touching the ground with sparks flying off, with the front and then rear bumpers getting hit... with damage turned on, the car takes a bad hit, suspension are in trouble, both bumpers fly off or are in bad shape... and in cockpit view, your neck hurts from the visual and auditory effects... it is EXTREMELY convincing... while in GT5... yer' just cruisin' around like if nothing happened.

That to me, makes a hell of a difference in the game experience... and makes up a big part of why i'm quite disapointed in prologue... the "driving" aspect of GT5 is very good, but when you get past 100 mph, it just doesn't work well... sure the cars handle differently and mostly realistically, but as soon as you want to punish the car, or when the track should punish you... nothing really happens. And that's the biggest problem for me.

 

[Zer0]

That to me, makes a hell of a difference in the game experience... and makes up a big part of why i'm quite disapointed in prologue... the "driving" aspect of GT5 is very good, but when you get past 100 mph, it just doesn't work well... sure the cars handle differently and mostly realistically, but as soon as you want to punish the car, or when the track should punish you... nothing really happens. And that's the biggest problem for me.

Did you already play the game or disappointed seeing vids?

Big difference, in Prologue the punishments are more physical(FF wheel) than visual.

 

[Biggles]

This in combination with a moving simulator platform!

The point about the Buttkicker is that it sells for around $60.

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/gaming/index.htm

It includes an amplifier, a selection of cables & a small vibrating motor that clamps to your chair. Very simple & works well, & at the price, is a great addition to any gaming rig. However, it is limited to responding to sound produced in the game. I don't see why it couldn't be developed to respond to actual programmed cues within the game, in the same way as (presumably) FFB in a wheel works. It would be an amazing & cheap way of enhancing the driving experience.

Is there some technical reason it would be difficult to do? Anyone?

 

[cdn57]

I have the Buttkicker LFE which is powered by a 1000 W amp and I notice a substantial difference in the effects provided by PC sims as compared to GT5. There really is no need to extract data from the game to improve the effects, just improve the sound in GT5.
With most PC sims, on the starting grid, the whole cockpit shakes like a mother** because of the close proximity of all the engines. There is a kick with every gear change and a variation in vibration with increasing engine revs. You can feel if you’re in the wrong gear and your butt rumbles when driving over the chicanes. Suprisingly, there’s a very effective vibration felt when you pass a car that has just gone off-track and is fighting for the right gear.
With GT5, it’s basically a steady vibration with minor variations on the rumble strips.
PD should now focus on the important differences such as better sound and implementation of damage but if they try to include all the added extras of PC sims they risk pushing its large consumer base towards console competitors. Currently, it’s the undisputed graphics king with widespread appeal.
Conversely, iRacing will soon attempt to change this hobby into a sport. It’ll be interesting to see just how many people want hardcore realism.

 

[RedOak]

Did you already play the game or disappointed seeing vids?

Big difference, in Prologue the punishments are more physical(FF wheel) than visual.

I have Prologue. I'm a big fan of GT since the first one... GT4 was a revelation for me because of the better physics. It was hard and fun to learn to push cars to their limits... but at the same time, it came to a turning point where PD kind of lost track of what was important in a game vs a simulator... GT5proloque is but a confirmation of that trend... which is unfortunate in my opinion.

This is something we frequently see in sims, where the developers and the small hardcore fan-base around it firmly believe that anything other then the hardcore simulation is bad... They forget the "game" behind it.... the need for options, wow effects and for .. well... fun. I now get a bit of that feeling in GT5prologue (and i know its no full-flesh GT5, but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...). The mechanics are there, they are mostly sound and it works... but, as much as i hate doing this cliché... the GT5 vs Grid video video on youtube catches the problem with GT5...although its kind of bias... it gets it clearly... puts the finger on the problem brilliantly... PD simply lost the sheer excitement of a racing game.

Surprisingly, this is not universally true of a "racing simulation" game... as if we look at the GTR series or the RACE series... although the level of "packaging polish" is clearly not as good as the GT series (just looking at GT5p's menus, music selection, loading screens, overall sophistication...), they didn't forget about what a racing game is all about... yes these games are more complicated (if you so chooses anyways) then GT5 with tire temperature, oil temperature, complex car damage and so on... but when you race in GTRs or RACEs, you really feel like you are in the car, you feel like you are in a Racing car... that you are a RACE CAR DRIVER!... there are no sounds compromise, no visual compromises, no special effect compromises... you go through thick smoke, have broken windshield, oil stains... all that's missing is a smell-device for tire burn, fuel burn, sweat, blood(?!)... its complete chaos attacking your every senses... while in GT5(p)... its really just about cruising around...

The funny thing about this "vs" video is that when they show GT5p... there's this classical music... and well... its true... that's how i personally feel when i play the game... its nice, pretty and very casual... like a sunday afternoon drive... while when i play GTR2 or RACE07... or GRID for that matter... i get that sweet heavy rock tune... adrenaline start pumping in my system... i get excited over the anticipation of the next corner, having to watch my rear and sides as i know simply touching the other car will be suicidal... with a confirming skretching metal sound that makes me feel like half the car's bodywork is gone... I can hear the turbo valve, the engine straps whining, the wheels screaming at different pitch and the everlasting rubble an sand in the wheel pits hitting the bottom of my car...

...while in GT5... i still hear the nice humming of the engine and... classical music. GT5 as become a "real driving simulator" has they've always advertised it... its become a "test drive simulator" you'd be put through to get a real driving license... its not a game anymore... its a tool. and now, i'm not saying this is necessarly bad... but with my previous example of the car's behavior on the Eiger track jump vs the Grid jumps... and its pretty clear that PD is limiting the physics a lot, depending on the situation... toning down the beast... taming it... for the masses... while more "arcadey" games such as Grid with their "too much grip" and their "catch up"... still run at 20 cars in a race, with full car damage, incredible sounds and visual effects... are ultimately wayyy more convincing in terms of "racing".

Naturally, all this is my humble and yet "experienced" vision of the brand(s) and game type... and everyone's allowed their own opinion. I still play Prologue... for now... but i can't help but look at other games that simply does it better... and get laughed at for "trying to beat GT".

Cheers and thanks for reading through all that

edit: Actually... i think this VS video is perhaps better and a little less "bias" towards Grid, but still makes a hell of a good point.

 

[scabbyhorse2]

On controller the steering inputs are tweaked to made the game more friendly, stop the car and try fast turning full left and right and you can see on the replay the wheels going slowly. Playing with an steering wheel the inputs are direct 1:1.

thanks, thats exactly what i'm on about

 

[Biggles]

I have the Buttkicker LFE which is powered by a 1000 W amp and I notice a substantial difference in the effects provided by PC sims as compared to GT5. There really is no need to extract data from the game to improve the effects, just improve the sound in GT5.
With most PC sims, on the starting grid, the whole cockpit shakes like a mother** because of the close proximity of all the engines. There is a kick with every gear change and a variation in vibration with increasing engine revs. You can feel if you’re in the wrong gear and your butt rumbles when driving over the chicanes. Suprisingly, there’s a very effective vibration felt when you pass a car that has just gone off-track and is fighting for the right gear.

The vibration effects in a racing sim shouldn't really be based only on the sound, since that means that the loudest sounds produce the most vibration, as your example illustrates.

It would be great if the vibration was created by actual driving cues, like slipping of the tires, changing gear etc. rather than the sounds.

 

[cdn57]

The vibration effects in a racing sim shouldn't really be based only on the sound, since that means that the loudest sounds produce the most vibration, as your example illustrates.

It would be great if the vibration was created by actual driving cues, like slipping of the tires, changing gear etc. rather than the sounds.

It's not the loud sounds that produce vibration, its the low frequency sound. The buttkicker LFE is capable of picking up the 5-200 Hz range although I have mine set to cut off anything above 100 HZ.

I understand how you'd like it to respond but I'm just saying that you wouldn't feel much is lacking if PD implemented the sound cues as they should. As I mentioned above, changing gears is quite evident with PC sims. As for tire slippage, well I'll have to check on that since I rarely ever do it.

 

[Zer0]

grid vs gt vid
............

You're giving too much credit to a highly biased vid made by fanboys for fanboys, same can be made with promotional footage of GT5 vs selected portions of actual grid gameplay edited to show only the flaws.



To me grid is like a Burnout, a NFS game or the car part of GTA, instant fun, easy to play with a controller and all with damage and crazy effects/sounds but nothing like the sim experience of Prologue with a G25, even with only one car at track.

 

[RedOak]

You're giving too much credit to a highly biased vid made by fanboys for fanboys, same can be made with promotional footage of GT5 vs selected portions of actual grid gameplay edited to show only the flaws.

To me grid is like a Burnout, a NFS game or the car part of GTA, instant fun, easy to play with a controller and all with damage and crazy effects/sounds but nothing like the sim experience of Prologue with a G25, even with only one car at track.

But see, that's the problem right here... i'm not giving too much credit to one or another... I've played both, tweaked both and took time to asses both products and made an informed decision... your assumption and example is as flawed as the video we are talking about.. you take a video of a very nice GT5 replay (which is unavailable now btw, but i've seen it before) and a very arcadey Grid video...

If you go play GRID, and put all the settings at "expert", no aids, no catchup and AI at expert... i guaranty you'll have a hell of a hard time with the game. It'll be fun and challenging, just like GT4/5p are... add the number of cars (20) and car damage, and its increasingly more complex then GT5p, and dare i say... more fun.

But following on your example, on the other hand, take Prologue, put everything at easy with Aids (and for the sake of the GRID video you posted) race in 3rd person view and you get the exact same arcadey and cheapy feel GRID gives out in the video/demo.

At this point, I'm thinking that a lot of people put GT5(p) on a podium without even considering it, and trashing every other games out there on the sole principle that "it can't be as good as GTx" (as i was saying earlier). I understand the differences, but i also see the benefits of them.

Also, comparing GRID to burnout?? GTA?? I'm sorry, but this can never be taken seriously... it can be your own opinion of course, but to this, i'll have to call "bull****" or "misinformed"... because there is no way you can compare those games going further then "they are race games".

edit: Ok i see you've changed the prologue video now. I'll say its a hell of a better video to "promote" prologue, however, since its an official game trailer, i'd put the GRID trailer as well for objective comparison... else its kind of wasted.

Like so:

 

[Biggles]

It's not the loud sounds that produce vibration, its the low frequency sound. The buttkicker LFE is capable of picking up the 5-200 Hz range although I have mine set to cut off anything above 100 HZ.

I understand how you'd like it to respond but I'm just saying that you wouldn't feel much is lacking if PD implemented the sound cues as they should. As I mentioned above, changing gears is quite evident with PC sims. As for tire slippage, well I'll have to check on that since I rarely ever do it.

Not to drag this out... but my point is, there are a lot of sounds in a racing game, only some of which are produced by what your car is doing, while on the other hand there are things that your car is doing that don't produce much sound, but do (or should) produce vibration.

I find GT5P works pretty well with the Buttkicker, unlike GT4 where the loud wind noise makes it unusable (which I think, kind of illustrates my point )

 

[Zer0]

Previous post edited.
My vids are supposed to be flawed, as GRID one.

GRID is on the PS store, I think all we have played the game.

I compare only the general game feel, I know that aren't comparable racing games, and I know that GRID is more realistic than Burnout.

Do you play with a wheel?

 

[myke6699]

But see, that's the problem right here... i'm not giving too much credit to one or another... I've played both, tweaked both and took time to asses both products and made an informed decision... your assumption and example is as flawed as the video we are talking about.. you take a video of a very nice GT5 replay (which is unavailable now btw, but i've seen it before) and a very arcadey Grid video...

If you go play GRID, and put all the settings at "expert", no aids, no catchup and AI at expert... i guaranty you'll have a hell of a hard time with the game. It'll be fun and challenging, just like GT4/5p are... add the number of cars (20) and car damage, and its increasingly more complex then GT5p, and dare i say... more fun.

But following on your example, on the other hand, take Prologue, put everything at easy with Aids (and for the sake of the GRID video you posted) race in 3rd person view and you get the exact same arcadey and cheapy feel GRID gives out in the video/demo.

At this point, I'm thinking that a lot of people put GT5(p) on a podium without even considering it, and trashing every other games out there on the sole principle that "it can't be as good as GTx" (as i was saying earlier). I understand the differences, but i also see the benefits of them.

Also, comparing GRID to burnout?? GTA?? I'm sorry, but this can never be taken seriously... it can be your own opinion of course, but to this, i'll have to call "bull****" or "misinformed"... because there is no way you can compare those games going further then "they are race games".

edit: Ok i see you've changed the prologue video now. I'll say its a hell of a better video to "promote" prologue, however, since its an official game trailer, i'd put the GRID trailer as well for objective comparison... else its kind of wasted.

Like so:

I tried playing GRID many times and the problem I have is that I have no control of the car. It doesn't even have the arcade feel of a game like Burnout or NFS (where the tires are sticky and you can brake on a dime). I was looking forward to this game since I saw the first screenshots late last year and it was heartbreaking when the demo was so underwhelming. Apparently, Codemaster admitted the demo had problems but they only mentioned the graphics shortcomings (and there were a few of that but no more than what's on GT5P). I just can't see the game to be anymore than what it is right now and because of that, it will be more of an arcade game than a sim. In that case a gamepad instead of a wheel, will probably be preferable controller. After using G25 with GT5P, I I just can't go back to using gamepad for driving cars (except for Burnout which is not really a driving game).

 

[Kryz11]

So last night I downloaded new LASER map and new update for the NUR-Ring in rFactor,
Took out few cars for a spin... and rFactor seems incredibly easy now. too easy. After playing GT5P for many weeks/months rFactor seems like a piece of cake, or walk in a park. Making turns, is easy as braking, turning, and gas and your results are great. In gran Turismo, you struggle to make the best turn, and yet you mess up. I play both games with all AIDS off, and sim modes on both (pro level in GT5)

So does that mean GT5P is more real then rFactor because you struggle on turns?


PS. Forgot to mention... Body roll in GT5, you can feel it more then in rFactor ( both mod cars and official cars)

After using G25 with GT5P, I I just can't go back to using gamepad for driving cars (except for Burnout which is not really a driving game).

haha same here, For arcade games I use controller, since it works great. For sims, GTR2, rfactor, GT5P, i use wheel.
I don't think its worth braking the wheel on silly lil arcade games

 

[alexpez]

cdn! Howdy!

Ive been looking at the iracing thing, and the laser scanned tracks and physics accuracy seem second to none.

The biggest difference though is in the online world. iRacing has a set of rules that everyone must abide by, whereas its a bit of a free for all in gt5p at present.

pez

 

[JosVerstappen]

So last night I downloaded new LASER map and new update for the NUR-Ring in rFactor,
Took out few cars for a spin... and rFactor seems incredibly easy now. too easy. After playing GT5P for many weeks/months rFactor seems like a piece of cake, or walk in a park. Making turns, is easy as braking, turning, and gas and your results are great. In gran Turismo, you struggle to make the best turn, and yet you mess up. I play both games with all AIDS off, and sim modes on both (pro level in GT5)

So does that mean GT5P is more real then rFactor because you struggle on turns?


PS. Forgot to mention... Body roll in GT5, you can feel it more then in rFactor ( both mod cars and official cars)



haha same here, For arcade games I use controller, since it works great. For sims, GTR2, rfactor, GT5P, i use wheel.
I don't think its worth braking the wheel on silly lil arcade games

You feel more body roll in GT because street cars have more bodyroll then racing cars, they have stiff suspension and are lower to the ground, that's why racing cars are more easy to drive, I have play both GTR2 and gt5 and and certainly with rear wheel driven cars you have to be very gently in gt5.

 

[JackB]

I've raced GT: Prologue, Forza, Forza 2, GTR 2, rFactor and Live for Speed.

GT: Prologue drove me nuts. I was beyond disappointed and I bought the PS3 and the Logitech G25 specifically for GT: Prologue. The good news, was that I loved the G25 and decided to upgrade my old PC to be able to use it with the PC sims above. I wish I hadn't waited so long. I've been racing the PC sims for the past 5 months and it's not even close. GT: Prologue is an alpha IMO. It's missing a ton of features that many games have been delivering for years. You can repeat over and over, "It's coming, PD are perfectionists...", but that's been the mantra forever. Personally, I don't believe it. They are just way to far behind and won't want to disappoint the diehard fans, so it will be GT 4 with better graphics and a few more features. They're perfectionists about graphics. I care about the sim and the sim aspects of the game. They leave a ton of sim features out. Many GT fans don't even know what they're missing.

To the fanboys, it won't matter. They'll play nothing but GT 5 like it's a religion.

 

[m00ndancer]

To be able to compare between rFactor and GT5P you have to use a track and a mod that is top notch.

Last Sunday I hosted a 1H36m long race @ VLM Mid Ohio and the HistoricX mod.
We raced for 24 hours @ 15x time acceleration. 6 human and 10 AI.

I have a 32" LCD tv and drive with the same resolution in both GT5P and rfactor.
1280x720p.

And when I compare the two I have found this:

Graphics (1-5):
GT5P: 4
rFactor: 4

Sound (1-5):
GT5P: 3
rFactor: 4

Immersion (1-5):
GT5P: 3
rFactor: 5


The rFactor cars is not as "perfect" and is more gritty and have a lower polycount, witch is clearly visible inside. The cars in GT5P is close to perfection. The shadows are much better in rFactor. The track in rFactor is miles ahead when you compare the immersion factor, the crowd flashes the cameras and you can hear the roar.
GT5P is in fact quite good but too "clinical" and the tracks are spotless and dead.
The cars are good but the sounds is too clean. The good thing about GT5P is that it's the same for all. But in PC sims it's only as good as the hardware, mod(sim) and tracks.
I can run rFactor with all the bells and whistles on, with 40 cars(24 visible at any given time). Around the clock. I can run GTR2 as well with the same amount in the dark and rain. What I miss in GT5P compared to PC sims are the immersion factor, all the stuff that makes a good sim/game. When you have a proper mod in rFactor you can feel a lot of what the front end is doing with tons of feedback. In GT5P I find the feeling a bit "notchy". The same goes for the tracks, not enough bumps and things that are imperfect. So far GT5P shows promise but haven't delivered, yet. I agree with JackB.
The "sim" part as in "The driving simulator" is not there yet by a long shot.

When I race the Mclaren GTR mod in rFactor at Nordsleife for example, I get really scared.

When driving GT5P with most of the cars at Suzuka, I find it hard, "perfect" graphics and a okish physics modeling but not immersive.

I have high hopes for GT5, I even got a Wheel Stand Pro to be able to race properly in the living room. I will buy it, but I fear that it will "just" be a driving game not a true "sim". Fancy cars and perfect tracks. Just like a Barbie doll. Good surface but no depth.