'14 Stingray vs '13 Viper GTS

[Snakebitten]

Nothing is heated though, there isn't anything from the text to indicate such and unless we can convey tone or conviction in these post then it is just a discussion.

I was speaking in general not implying our discussion so far was heated. But I can see how I worded it gave you that impression.

Well I don't think anyone is really calling it that, it's just another Track viper that is street legal, until it dawns those three letter like the other two then I wouldn't call it a replacement either. Also GM hasn't said anything that would lead people to believe there wont be another ZR1. The representation is off on the C6r and I have plenty of post on that matter already.

Yes its not a faithful representation but at least you can spec the hp and weight and get close to the color scheme and leave the rest to the imagination. Mine all have yellow fronts. I spec'ed the Z06 to the old GT2 specs I could find and the ZR1 to GT3 spec weight and power. Not remotely exact but its ok for now. Maybe we will get a GT3 version since it seems they are paying more attention to GT3 series now with addition of the BMW, Audi GT3 cars etc. One can only hope.

I'm pretty sure I did say the only car that deserve any merit for running a truthful lap from right off the road or dealership is the Radical.

Yes you did but you can hardly put Radicals, Donkervoorts, Sevens etc in the same category of production car as Vipers and Vettes.

That's not the point once again it was a racing team, it's not that hard to see why they setting it up and you doing it on your own will yield vastly different results. Many cars are adjustable but you don't get a race team to do it for you when you pick the car up at the dealership.

Of course a race team or a factory team will be better at setting up the right ride height, degrees on the splitter and wing etc than a "comparative" novice. I understand where you are coming from but those hang-ups don't bother me. The bottom-line to me is that the Ring record isn't about what an "average Joe customer" can wring out of said vehicle on the most dangerous track in the world. Its about best time said production car can achieve at the Ring in production spec. So of course a manufacturer is not going to use Joe average and the wrong factory adjustment to achieve that. To expect that is a bit naïve to me. Why would I run a car with "factory" adjustability, with the aero in neutral mode to achieve my cars best time on the track just to say I raced it in the settings from the showroom?? As far as I know there is no need for 1.5 degrees of angle of attack while the car is sitting in the showroom wouldn't you agree? But there is need for that at a race track especially the Ring. An average Joe racer will never showcase the cars true potential. That's why MFG's pay race drivers and have a setup team. Is this subject to cheating? Of course. Some have been reported as using cheater slicks, special computer tunes etc which is sad. But anytime money or notoriety is involved you have those that will cheat so one has to be skeptical at times.

That being said, I see nothing wrong or nefarious with a race team setting up the Vipers "factory suspension/aero" to get the most out of it for that specific track, after all this is exactly what the owners do when they track the ACR too even if it may not be as spot on as an experienced race team. The whole purpose of the Ring runs from the MFG's is to see how fast their respective production spec car can run the track and of course to use it in marketing since now the masses are aware of the Nurburgring and its significance. Why would any manufacture spend that kind of money to run the Ring in any setup less than the cars factory best for that track? The fact of the matter is that same setup Tomball Dodge used to run the 7:12 can be replicated on your factory stock Viper ACR. So yes an average could have that same setup but he wont posses the skill to not kill himself or come close to that time a true racecar driver can get. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and that is ok with me.

No it was an engineer that drove the car this last time, the whole Jan thing is a misconception for the last ZR1 run and even another run prior was an engineer driving. Last run was by Jim Mero, though to be fair the guy has been running Vettes since the mid 2000s at the Ring.

It was Mero, there are plenty of videos and articles to confirm it. He also drove the Z06 too. I don't think so, the fact still remain the car is harder to drive and be competitive with over time than the ZR1. It's more detail setup car and relies on it to perform best, the Vette doesn't need as much setup work if any to do this. If these times were straight off the show room with the same guy driving both cars to the limit, then that would create a more realistic idea of who is better.

I stand corrected. Mero is no joke though. I would have loved to see Jan take the 12 ZR1 around the Green Hell. I don't think he would have a 7:12 or better but I think he might have gotten a sec or two more out of it. What do you think?

 

[sumbrownkid]

What do the 640hp Vettes do on exit?

Slide less than a Viper because the suspension says hi?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The ZR1 is faster than the ACR, in a straight line. Even if it runs a faster lap, it's not from cornering speed.

Yes we established that due to the added aero.

Dude, the simple fact that you keep calling an ACR a "track car" shows in itself that you're really not getting it.

Care to elaborate??

I haven't heard you mention the supercharger in the ZR1 though.

Now MY thinking, is that if "factory downforce and adjustable suspension + 70lbs of weight removed" makes it unfair, throwing a supercharger on one of the cars and not the other isn't fair either.

What about it? It exist and is usually brought up as a petty argument really, it's a production car there are no rules to how it's built and so on...

So I find this reasoning strange, a 6.2 with a supercharger isn't equal to naturally aspirated 8.4 V10. Makes absolutely no sense

In closing, don't ignore that the equal powered SRT Viper not only beat the ZR1 at Laguna Seca, but also the ACR, and EVERYTHING ELSE.
We get that you love Corvette's, but don't talk about a Corvette's superior handling over the Vipers until it actually has it. 👍

I'm not ignoring it, nor did I say anywhere that in capable hand the Viper isn't better, but it should be since that is what the ACR version is geared toward more so than any Vette...well that's a like the Carbon Z06 is an obviously glorified street legal track car too. Also the Corvette does have

Yes its not a faithful representation but at least you can spec the hp and weight and get close to the color scheme and leave the rest to the imagination. Mine all have yellow fronts. I spec'ed the Z06 to the old GT2 specs I could find and the ZR1 to GT3 spec weight and power. Not remotely exact but its ok for now. Maybe we will get a GT3 version since it seems they are paying more attention to GT3 series now with addition of the BMW, Audi GT3 cars etc. One can only hope.

The problem is you have to detune it quite a bit to get there, and you can never truly get it because the aero packages isn't correct. Also the ZR1 should be spec'd to GT2 and Z06 to GT3 since those are the actual bodies used for those groups. Then again I'm a stickler when it comes to PD so we should just ignore this.

Yes you did but you can hardly put Radicals, Donkervoorts, Sevens etc in the same category of production car as Vipers and Vettes.

Why?

Of course a race team or a factory team will be better at setting up the right ride height, degrees on the splitter and wing etc than a "comparative" novice. I understand where you are coming from but those hang-ups don't bother me. The bottom-line to me is that the Ring record isn't about what an "average Joe customer" can wring out of said vehicle on the most dangerous track in the world. Its about best time said production car can achieve at the Ring in production spec. So of course a manufacturer is not going to use Joe average and the wrong factory adjustment to achieve that. To expect that is a bit naïve to me. Why would I run a car with "factory" adjustability, with the aero in neutral mode to achieve my cars best time on the track just to say I raced it in the settings from the showroom?? As far as I know there is no need for 1.5 degrees of angle of attack while the car is sitting in the showroom wouldn't you agree? But there is need for that at a race track especially the Ring. An average Joe racer will never showcase the cars true potential. That's why MFG's pay race drivers and have a setup team. Is this subject to cheating? Of course. Some have been reported as using cheater slicks, special computer tunes etc which is sad. But anytime money or notoriety is involved you have those that will cheat so one has to be skeptical at times.

That being said, I see nothing wrong or nefarious with a race team setting up the Vipers "factory suspension/aero" to get the most out of it for that specific track, after all this is exactly what the owners do when they track the ACR too even if it may not be as spot on as an experienced race team. The whole purpose of the Ring runs from the MFG's is to see how fast their respective production spec car can run the track and of course to use it in marketing since now the masses are aware of the Nurburgring and its significance. Why would any manufacture spend that kind of money to run the Ring in any setup less than the cars factory best for that track? The fact of the matter is that same setup Tomball Dodge used to run the 7:12 can be replicated on your factory stock Viper ACR. So yes an average could have that same setup but he wont posses the skill to not kill himself or come close to that time a true racecar driver can get. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one and that is ok with me.

That's fine and I'm not expecting it I'm just saying it's an obvious misrepresentation of what you actually get when you buy it. Also how are they "wrong" factory settings? The racing teams set them up with precise knowledge of how the track operates rather than running the car as is. The fact remains when a car company builds a car drives it from the manufacture to the track and then runs it's record lap on a open track day with other cars around them it holds much more merit.

Either way I'd say you agree that the ACR is a track car, which was my point mainly in all that. It's obviously a limited numbers car for Dodge to build and sell and then purposely take to the track and say hey we're the best, just only when we specialize it to be the best. And yeah we'll have to agree to disagree because ring times are as realistic to the everyday world these cars exist isn't realistic.

I stand corrected. Mero is no joke though. I would have loved to see Jan take the 12 ZR1 around the Green Hell. I don't think he would have a 7:12 or better but I think he might have gotten a sec or two more out of it. What do you think?

Perhaps, it'd rather see it happen then speculate.

 

[CSLACR]

Yes we established that due to the added aero.

Ignore the SRT Viper beating the ZR1 at Laguna still, I assume? Or does that have aero too?
You know the SRT is a better comparison because it doesn't have anything you're complaining about, right?

What about it? It exist and is usually brought up as a petty argument really, it's a production car there are no rules to how it's built and so on...

So I find this reasoning strange, a 6.2 with a supercharger isn't equal to naturally aspirated 8.4 V10. Makes absolutely no sense

Interesting, I was thinking your talk about having an option to remove a radio, a/c, and power windows, calling it a full blown racecar, was exactly as petty.

I'm not ignoring it, nor did I say anywhere that in capable hand the Viper isn't better, but it should be since that is what the ACR version is geared toward more so than any Vette...well that's a like the Carbon Z06 is an obviously glorified street legal track car too. Also the Corvette does have

Since I was talking about the SRT here, you wanna do the same?
The SRT Viper beat the following cars:
Everything (yes, even Corvettes)

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
Even the same exact driver!

(quite frankly IMO it's a joke looking at the times, these cars are all so close the smallest goof will throw a car from 1st to 7th, so really I'd call them all about a dead tie)

Either way I'd say you agree that the ACR is a track car, which was my point mainly in all that. It's obviously a limited numbers car for Dodge to build and sell and then purposely take to the track and say hey we're the best, just only when we specialize it to be the best. And yeah we'll have to agree to disagree because ring times are as realistic to the everyday world these cars exist isn't realistic.

7:03.58 - That's a track car.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/22/srts-race-only-viper-acr-x-laps-nurburgring-in-7-03-058/

Whatever you do, continue avoiding the original statement you made

You do realize those are factory drivers doing those times, in regular hands or even semi-pro the car is a handful, the ACR is a better handling car than the current SRT due to the down force it generated and also why it got a better time around the ring. It was a glorified production track car, ZR1 had an AC unit, radio and actual comforts of an every day driver. Also ring numbers don't mean much if anything a collection of tracks should be looked at, the ring has been turned into a marketing tool.

You want to explain the SRTbeat the ACR at Laguna Seca then?

I like how you took the liberty of assuming the ZR1 has better cornering than the SRT, but since then you've ignored it completely, and continue complaining the ACR isn't fair.
You complained, let's drop the ACR, it's clearly ready for LeMans(at 1550KG), so let's talk the SRT Viper, it's spec'd more closely to the ZR1 anyway.

Of course this will be responded to via more ACR complaints. Cuz no fair!

 

[Snakebitten]

The problem is you have to detune it quite a bit to get there, and you can never truly get it because the aero packages isn't correct. Also the ZR1 should be spec'd to GT2 and Z06 to GT3 since those are the actual bodies used for those groups. Then again I'm a stickler when it comes to PD so we should just ignore this.

Was it not actually the Z06 they based the C6R for the GT2 class and then later the ZR1 in GT3? That's why I modded mine that way.

Why?

Just look at them both and tell me they are the same class of production car. They are clearly not. To argue that would be absurd in my opinion.

That's fine and I'm not expecting it I'm just saying it's an obvious misrepresentation of what you actually get when you buy it. Also how are they "wrong" factory settings? The racing teams set them up with precise knowledge of how the track operates rather than running the car as is. The fact remains when a car company builds a car drives it from the manufacture to the track and then runs it's record lap on a open track day with other cars around them it holds much more merit.

Either way I'd say you agree that the ACR is a track car, which was my point mainly in all that. It's obviously a limited numbers car for Dodge to build and sell and then purposely take to the track and say hey we're the best, just only when we specialize it to be the best. And yeah we'll have to agree to disagree because ring times are as realistic to the everyday world these cars exist isn't realistic.

Wrong factory setting for that track [Nurburgring]. I believe the wings comes set at neutral and the splitter is retracted. So it would be the wrong factory setting to run any track with it at those settings if you are trying to extract the cars best FACTORY performance. Uppercase is for emphasis not shouting or an indication of anger

And just how is it a misrepresentation of what you get with an ACR when any ACR owner can adjust his/her factory stock aero and suspension to those exact specs they ran the Ring with? Also Id like to see SRT "drive" a Viper from Detroit to Germany so they can satisfy your needs for the record lol. I know what you are trying to say but its not sensible for anyone to go to a track like that and not adjust tire pressures etc before they run. That alone, by your standards, is not showroom stock car because one would have altered the tire pressure it had sitting in the showroom. You could take your definition of a showroom stock ACR and run in the 7:20's-30's at the Ring but it wont be the best time the car is capable of factory stock. Now if they tweaked the engine, computer, used slicks and anything that an ACR owner does not get when they buy a showroom stock ACR then your argument would hold water to me.

Perhaps, it'd rather see it happen then speculate.

Fair enough.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Ignore the SRT Viper beating the ZR1 at Laguna still, I assume? Or does that have aero too?
You know the SRT is a better comparison because it doesn't have anything you're complaining about, right?

I'm pretty sure I complained about both cars, but okay.

Interesting, I was thinking your talk about having an option to remove a radio, a/c, and power windows, calling it a full blown racecar, was exactly as petty.

I never called it a race car.

Since I was talking about the SRT here, you wanna do the same?
The SRT Viper beat the following cars:
Everything (yes, even Corvettes)

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/laguna_seca.html
Even the same exact driver!




7:03.58 - That's a track car.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/22/srts-race-only-viper-acr-x-laps-nurburgring-in-7-03-058/

Whatever you do, continue avoiding the original statement you made

How am I avoiding it, between debating you and all of what you're saying and another user things may not get fully detailed, you say this as if your the only one I'm talking to. It's quite asinine and presumptuous on your part. So instead of saying "oh your neglecting" why not put the situation into context instead. I'm trying to give you and the other user respect and argue each point in a timely fashion. Since the ACR was the main topic of discussion between me and the other user long before you threw your hat in to this that is probably why I mixed up the more standard version.

ACR-X is a race car, as to where a track car is a street legal track day version that can be used on regular roads but easily taken to the local race track to turn laps. Track cars aren't dedicated race cars.

You want to explain the SRTbeat the ACR at Laguna Seca then?

Are you talking about the TA? Because the ZR1 and TA are the only thing to beat the Viper ACR but not by that much, the GTS and the regular SRT are slower. What is really impressive is the Z51 time compared to the SRT Viper around the same track. The TA is a time attack track day car and is advertised as such so...

I like how you took the liberty of assuming the ZR1 has better cornering than the SRT, but since then you've ignored it completely, and continue complaining the ACR isn't fair.

Once again I didn't say the ACR was unfair only as far as Ring times go, I said both were don't take my post out of context because you too have an obvious bias. I said we could break down why one is better than the other if you want since it is in line with the topic. So I didn't take liberty if anything I invited to discuss, not sure what the issue with that is?

You complained, let's drop the ACR, it's clearly ready for LeMans(at 1550KG), so let's talk the SRT Viper, it's spec'd more closely to the ZR1 anyway.

I never said that in any capacity and the smart ass remark isn't needed since you have basically twisted everything I said and ignored the equal negatives I've given the Vette, especially in regards to lap times at the Ring. So I really question if you're reading my posts fully or rather seeing that I say something against the Viper and stopping there.

Of course this will be responded to via more ACR complaints. Cuz no fair!

You just gave me crap for assuming and yet you do it too...always confuses me why people pull this double standard.

Was it not actually the Z06 they based the C6R for the GT2 class and then later the ZR1 in GT3? That's why I modded mine that way.

No... the Z06 body is the base of the GT3 car, the GT2 C6r is based on the ZR1 and that is one of the ZR1's selling points.

Just look at them both and tell me they are the same class of production car. They are clearly not. To argue that would be absurd in my opinion.

That's your opinion and your entitled to it, that's not really a real argument they are both track cars that are street legal.

Wrong factory setting for that track [Nurburgring]. I believe the wings comes set at neutral and the splitter is retracted. So it would be the wrong factory setting to run any track with it at those settings if you are trying to extract the cars best FACTORY performance. Uppercase is for emphasis not shouting or an indication of anger

And just how is it a misrepresentation of what you get with an ACR when any ACR owner can adjust his/her factory stock aero and suspension to those exact specs they ran the Ring with? Also Id like to see SRT "drive" a Viper from Detroit to Germany so they can satisfy your needs for the record lol. I know what you are trying to say but its not sensible for anyone to go to a track like that and not adjust tire pressures etc before they run. That alone, by your standards, is not showroom stock car because one would have altered the tire pressure it had sitting in the showroom. You could take your definition of a showroom stock ACR and run in the 7:20's-30's at the Ring but it wont be the best time the car is capable of factory stock. Now if they tweaked the engine, computer, used slicks and anything that an ACR owner does not get when they buy a showroom stock ACR then your argument would hold water to me.

I'm not saying they need to drive from Detroit it's obviously impossible, the point is that a car like the Radical that embodies just as much aero if not more, was able to drive that long distance and back on the same tires. The car didn't have much setup work and really what it shows is that you can buy the car drive it around and still churn record breaking lap times at the ring with practice. So the question still remains why can't the Viper or the ZR1 without using semi-slick tires?

 

[05XR8]

I opted for Neither. Ive only driven a C6 convertible in real life. As far as the game, I like both interiors for each car. The Viper is cool as it still looks like the original. Corvette looks nice in the front and theyre trying something new for the rear (nothing beats the trademark round lights from the C2 through C4.

The exhaust sounds better in the Viper. the colour choices are nicer on the Viper. The overall style of the Viper is better to me. I like the Corvette brand more and I like the Lime Rock Green colour choice. I customised a White C7 and it looks awesome. 7speed gearbox is cool.

The Corvette seems to be more about computer chips and the Viper is like using a typewriter.