2008 Best Car Series: (Round 2) Nissan GT-R vs Holden Commodore

[Rotary Junkie]

Pile of garbage now? Just because it obliterated the Falcon.

No, more because it is.

New Commodore? Oh, more of the same.

Also, GOK: It's not that we're trying to get used to a Japanese supercar with some sort of balls; More that most still hate the looks of the GT-R, hate its cyborg-ness, etc...

 

[gator of kana]

Also, GOK: It's not that we're trying to get used to a Japanese supercar with some sort of balls; More that most still hate the looks of the GT-R, hate its cyborg-ness, etc...

Really? I find the looks of the GT-R to be, well, attractive

 

[Philly]

I seriously consider it the one-tenth version of the Veyron. It just does it all, top to bottom, without an visible hindrance or fault before judicial scrutiny.

In terms of cars, that really isn't somewhere a car wants to be. The Veyron's biggest thing is that it is 10/10ths of combining straight line speed, luxury and not hindering cornering too much. A 1/10th version of the Veyron wouldn't be impressive at all. I'd say something like an Accord V-6 would be a 1/10th Veyron.

 

[Moglet]

we all know which one you'll feel cooler and more satisifed driving.

Yup, the GTR. It would certainly turn more heads.

 

[mustangGT90210]

I know why Japan hasn't made a high-powered performance car in the past. There was some type of rule that applied to all Japanese cars saying that their cars can not have more than 280HP, but that rule is gone now. I guess people are still trying to get use to a high-powered supercar that is Japanese but it will start to grow on you before you know it

The gentlemans agreement sports cars. You do know they still made some ballsy 300+ hp cars from the factory, but always rated them at 276hp. Last time I checked, that was a lot of power...

 

[exigeracer]

In terms of cars, that really isn't somewhere a car wants to be. The Veyron's biggest thing is that it is 10/10ths of combining straight line speed, luxury and not hindering cornering too much. A 1/10th version of the Veyron wouldn't be impressive at all. I'd say something like an Accord V-6 would be a 1/10th Veyron.

I meant it a kind of figure of speech related to price.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Only difference? thats huge, 100kg's means a lot in racing, plus the pop off valve limits boost (hence dropping power), thats a huge disadvantage. Dick Johnson in race even asked (jokingly) for them to add more weight to the GTR when it pitted.

When the race was cancelled due to the bad weather the GTR had covered the most ground so it won, simple.

Wrong, the GT-R crashed, then Dick Johnson passed him after he crashed, after he passed him they brung out the red flag. At the point of red flagging the race Dick Johnson in his Sierra had covered more ground, the GT-R had crashed, yet they handed the win to the GT-R.

No, more because it is.

New Commodore? Oh, more of the same.

Also, GOK: It's not that we're trying to get used to a Japanese supercar with some sort of balls; More that most still hate the looks of the GT-R, hate its cyborg-ness, etc...

The VE shares nothing with the VZ, except the engines which now have more power of course. The GT-R is still a turbo 6 with an ATTESA AWD system, so it's not like you can claim the GT-R is any newer than the VE compared to predecessors.

Yup, the GTR. It would certainly turn more heads.

Ah hah hah hah hah.

The gentlemans agreement sports cars. You do know they still made some ballsy 300+ hp cars from the factory, but always rated them at 276hp. Last time I checked, that was a lot of power...

+1, and the 3 rotor Eunos Cosmo was rated at more for some stange reason, it had 300hp.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

The VE shares nothing with the VZ, except the engines which now have more power of course. The GT-R is still a turbo 6 with an ATTESA AWD system, so it's not like you can claim the GT-R is any newer than the VE compared to predecessors.

Aaaand so?

The GT-R went through and rethought everything for absolute best performance with a lowish price tag. The Commodore is IMO just another cookie-cutter sedan, but with RWD and big V8s available.

 

[Jay]

Wrong, the GT-R crashed, then Dick Johnson passed him after he crashed, after he passed him they brung out the red flag. At the point of red flagging the race Dick Johnson in his Sierra had covered more ground, the GT-R had crashed, yet they handed the win to the GT-R.

I just rewatched the end of the race (I have it on my computer) and the official said the race is declared at the last full lap of the race which the GTR was still leading at that stage. GTR won, no screw ups, that was the rules, at the time of the incident the GTR had lapped 2nd place and by the time the red flag was raised it was too late for DJ to make up the ground.

 

[niky]

I know why Japan hasn't made a high-powered performance car in the past. There was some type of rule that applied to all Japanese cars saying that their cars can not have more than 280HP, but that rule is gone now. I guess people are still trying to get use to a high-powered supercar that is Japanese but it will start to grow on you before you know it

The gentlemans agreement sports cars. You do know they still made some ballsy 300+ hp cars from the factory, but always rated them at 276hp. Last time I checked, that was a lot of power...

Which is where the whole "Nissan always lies about horsepower" argument started.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Aaaand so?

The GT-R went through and rethought everything for absolute best performance with a lowish price tag. The Commodore is IMO just another cookie-cutter sedan, but with RWD and big V8s available.

Have you not heard the VE's nickname? "Billion Dollar Baby", because they started from absolute scratch to make everything better. It doesn't have all the technology of the GTR because then it wouldn't be cheap bang for buck performance like the Commodore is meant to be.

I just rewatched the end of the race (I have it on my computer) and the official said the race is declared at the last full lap of the race which the GTR was still leading at that stage. GTR won, no screw ups, that was the rules, at the time of the incident the GTR had lapped 2nd place and by the time the red flag was raised it was too late for DJ to make up the ground.

Yet that's still why the crowd boo'd, not because it was a GTR, but because it had crashed and been passed when they decided to red flag the race, but on a technicality it still won.

 

[Jay]

The GTR was already getting boo'd the whole season, there was dislike for the car well before this race.

The whole reason ATCC got booted for V8 Supercars was the fans got sick of these imports winning (not just the GTR), ticket numbers and money was down, while cost was up.


Oh and rewatching the end of the race, DJ's car never appeared to get in the lead at all before the red flag, he was a lap down, managed to get on the lead lap but never actually passed the GTR before the red flag. By the time he did pass it was red flag under pace car conditions.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

The GTR was already getting boo'd the whole season, there was dislike for the car well before this race.

The whole reason ATCC got booted for V8 Supercars was the fans got sick of these imports winning (not just the GTR), ticket numbers and money was down, while cost was up.


Oh and rewatching the end of the race, DJ's car never appeared to get in the lead at all before the red flag, he was a lap down, managed to get on the lead lap but never actually passed the GTR before the red flag. By the time he did pass it was red flag under pace car conditions.

I guess I'd be pissed off too if the V8 sedans had to race a small sports coupé. Bit of a mismatch in terms of performance around a track.

 

[gator of kana]

The GTR was already getting boo'd the whole season.

Who would boo at an Import that is actually very good. I'm not doing this to rub it in anyones faces but this should show you how good the GT-R is for it being a giant video game with a lot of weight as a road car
A race between the GT-R, Murcielago LP640, Gallardo Superleggra, 911 Turbo, and Exige at Motegi

 

[Tornado]

Who would boo at an Import that is actually very good.

The highly dedicated Australian owners who essentially buy one of two cars every year, of which the R32 wrecked both of them in races.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

The highly dedicated Australian owners who essentially buy one of two cars every year, of which the R32 wrecked both of them in races.

The highly intelligent Australians who see the lunacy in pitting a two door sports car with more power against a V8 sedan with less power.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Who would boo at an Import that is actually very good. I'm not doing this to rub it in anyones faces but this should show you how good the GT-R is for it being a giant video game with a lot of weight as a road car
A race between the GT-R, Murcielago LP640, Gallardo Superleggra, 911 Turbo, and Exige at Motegi

Please dont tell me you took that race seriously considering the driver of the LP640 was changing at least 2000rpm before the redline should have gave you a hint at how "real" it is .

 

[gator of kana]

I don't see why people don't like the GT-R. You hardly ever get a car that is hand-crafted by professional people, usually you got machines doing all the installments to the car. I don't know if people find that special but I do, I think the car has soul definetly, It might have a price tag close to a Corvette but it's special, the price factor should not matter anyway, if you want a car bad enough, you would save your money up for it no matter how long it took you to work your way to get what you desirably wanted. This value for money thing has gone out of control. I understand that some people can't afford some cars in the world, but if you are patient with life, you can buy any car that makes your heart soar. I'm not defending the GT-R, all I just want to do is show you guys it is possible to get the car that you want if you just have faith, that's what my mom tells me. I thought it was going to be impossible to buy the GT-R (dream car) because I thought it was too expensive but then my mom encouraged me that anything is possible, but if you replaced the car you wanted so badly with the cheaper car, you have given up on the car you wanted, and that's sad.

 

[Greycap]

I guess I'd be pissed off too if the V8 sedans had to race a small sports coupé. Bit of a mismatch in terms of performance around a track.

You have no reason to be pissed off, the game was fair. That "small sports coupé" you're talking about isn't as tiny and superior by performance figures as you may want to think. It weighed comfortably more than the Commodore of the time (around 1500 kg vs. around 1350 kg), was only 30 cm shorter and hardly a small car with its overall length of more than four and a half metres, had more power (276 bhp vs. 241 bhp) but on the other hand less torque (360 Nm vs 410 Nm)... stock R32 GT-R vs. stock HSV Commodore, this is.

The point? With roughly similar power figures and more weight the base model GT-R beat the top dog Commodore back then, now it has more power than its competitor while the Holden has lost its weight disadvantage. The beating continues. As a high performance daily driver with grand tourer capabilities the GT-R simply is better.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

You have no reason to be pissed off, the game was fair. That "small sports coupé" you're talking about isn't as tiny and superior by performance figures as you may want to think. It weighed comfortably more than the Commodore of the time (around 1500 kg vs. around 1350 kg), was only 30 cm shorter and hardly a small car with its overall length of more than four and a half metres, had more power (276 bhp vs. 241 bhp) but on the other hand less torque (360 Nm vs 410 Nm)... stock R32 GT-R vs. stock HSV Commodore, this is.

The point? With roughly similar power figures and more weight the base model GT-R beat the top dog Commodore back then, now it has more power than its competitor while the Holden has lost its weight disadvantage. The beating continues. As a high performance daily driver with grand tourer capabilities the GT-R simply is better.

Well first, the GT-R was only rated at 276hp, and obviously even then 35hp, plus the AWD traction advantage, plus the better weight distribution from being a sports coupé is a huge advantage itself.
Second, the V8 Commodores weighed closer to 1500kg themselves, only the V6 models of the early '90s were under 1400kg.
So in race conditions the GT-R had massive advantages, yet the Commodore still did set a faster lap in qualifying even back then.
The idea of touring cars is nothing to do with seeing which car is faster off the factory floor, it's supposed to be about maintaining parity between the racers, hence the penalties the R32 eventually received for its unfair advantage.

 

[Jay]

So in race conditions the GT-R had massive advantages, yet the Commodore still did set a faster lap in qualifying even back then.
.

Are you forgetting the GTR had 100+kg extra ballast and a pop off valve to limit boost (hence power)? There goe's all the 'massive advantages' Not to mention the one fast qualifing Commodore was a special built VL (which is lighter and smaller).

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Are you forgetting the GTR had 100+kg extra ballast and a pop off valve to limit boost (hence power)? There goe's all the 'massive advantages' Not to mention the one fast qualifing Commodore was a special built VL (which is lighter and smaller).

That doesn't change the fact it was a sports coupé which would naturally have better weight distribution than a V8 sedan, it had an AWD traction advantage, it might still have had extra power for all we know.
Walkinshaw wasn't a special built Commodore, it was as factory produced as any other car out there.

 

[gator of kana]

come on guys you're arguing again

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

come on guys you're arguing again

It's not arguing when I'm right.

 

[Jay]

Walkinshaw wasn't a special built Commodore, it was as factory produced as any other car out there.

It was specially built IIRC, I will check the race again but at the moment I don't have time. (In the middle of Fuji races GT5P)

It's not arguing when I'm right.

You wonder why you get 'picked on'

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

You wonder why you get 'picked on'

See the symbol VIPER? That implies I'm making a smart-arse joke, a joke. And people wonder why I'm snappy.

Edit: So tell me VIPER, which car always went much faster down conrod straight? Having just watched a video, even with the pop off valve and weight penalty the GTR was still way faster on the straights, and of course it would be faster in the corners.

Point being, if Nissan's sports coupé wasn't faster than Holden's family car, there would have been something to worry about.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't see why people don't like the GT-R.

People have rights to opinions. There are people in the world who like and dislike every single kind of car. Just because the GT-R is a legend in your eyes it does not mean that everyone sees it as such. Personally, I sit on the fence with regards to the GT-R - I neither see it as the best thing since sliced bread, nor do I feel the need to bash it.

I think the car has soul definetly

And again, many would disagree with you (even some who like the car would maintain it's a bit soulless).

I just want to do is show you guys it is possible to get the car that you want if you just have faith, that's what my mom tells me. I thought it was going to be impossible to buy the GT-R (dream car) because I thought it was too expensive but then my mom encouraged me that anything is possible, but if you replaced the car you wanted so badly with the cheaper car, you have given up on the car you wanted, and that's sad.

It's a nice sentiment to have, it's also the typical naïveity of youth. Whilst I don't want to be the one to rain on your parade, life isn't that simple. Obviously if you don't try you don't achieve, but many can spend their lives trying and still not achieve. By all means set that goal to own a GT-R one day but don't be surprised when life throws you a curve ball either...

come on guys you're arguing again

Web forum = opinions = disagreements = arguements. If you took away opinions to take away the arguements it'd be a very dull place to discuss things.

 

[Joey D]

You hardly ever get a car that is hand-crafted by professional people, usually you got machines doing all the installments to the car.

Normal, daily driven cars like a Camry or a Cobalt are built by machines, but many of the world's sports cars are built by hand by professionals. Nissan didn't do anything new with that. Hell the Viper, the most unsophisticated sports car out there now, is hand built.

 

[Jay]

Edit: So tell me VIPER, which car always went much faster down conrod straight? Having just watched a video, even with the pop off valve and weight penalty the GTR was still way faster on the straights, and of course it would be faster in the corners.

Actually in the 92 race the Nissan GTR was constantly getting beaten down conrod straight (and the uphill section after corner 1) easily by the Shell Sierra lap after lap, not sure how it faired next to the Commodores I'll have to watch the footage again, as the GTR wasn't around them all that much.


*EDIT*

Ok I checked out the section where they showed and talked about Larry Perkins VL again and apparently he was building the engines himself and was able to get more power out of them than the factory boys.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Actually in the 92 race the Nissan GTR was constantly getting beaten down conrod straight (and the uphill section after corner 1) easily by the Shell Sierra lap after lap, not sure how it faired next to the Commodores I'll have to watch the footage again, as the GTR wasn't around them all that much.


*EDIT*

Ok I checked out the section where they showed and talked about Larry Perkins VL again and apparently he was building the engines himself and was able to get more power out of them than the factory boys.

Perkins you sly dog!

Anyway, here's my rundown of what we're arguing about:
We both agree the GTR was faster
I'm saying it was a mismatch
Nissan fans get all proud their 2 door sports car beat the family cars
That'd be like me getting excited over an LS3 C6 beating a Skyline sedan.
What say you to that?