2008 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

[Sureboss]

Fantastic drive by Vettel. I was so disappointed for Bourdais though. The title is so tight. One retirement and you'd fancy it is over for the other driver. Very good race.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Id go along with that. Sir Jackie Stewart's simple advice for Hamilton is all he needs to do. 'Don't try and be a hero.'

 

[Metar]

Isn't it? Just take a look at how Ferrari did.

Not to mention Webber and Alonso from the Renault-powered division that finished high up.

 

[darkfinal]

Its not the first time he's took to pushing people off the track though.

If I was Piquet there, I would've kept my racing line and have Hamilton crash into me. And let him learn he's not the friggin' king of the road.

I have a feeling that Hamilton wasn't necessarily intending to win, just to beat Massa. He may have showed good sportsmanship and slowed down once he was in 2nd and let Vettel go on to take his first victory...Atleast I hope so.

Haha. You must be kidding.

 

[daan]

Hun - I was comparing Kubica's drive here more to Piquet's Hockenheim run.

1 - Kubica drives a Sauber BMW, not a McLaren Mercedes;

Piquet did it in a Renault.

2 - IF Hamilton started with the same fuel load Kubica did, he would be in much more trouble to move up the field than he was.

Hamilton would still have come through the field due to his straightline speed. How many people did Kubica overtake on the track?

I'm not saying Kubica had a bad race, but it was definitely a lucky result.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Hun - I was comparing Kubica's drive here more to Piquet's Hockenheim run.

It is not that good of a comparison. Piquet's result was simply down to the quick pit. Kubica had some good luck but he still had to beat the drivers that did the same as him (Alonso, Heidfeld) and he didnt get that much of an advantage over most of the two stoppers (Webber, Rosberg, Massa). He was a little lucky, but so were others and he beat them. Piquet did much less on the track to deserve to be in the position he was in.

 

[niky]

Surprisingly, no one talks about Kubica.

I think that - after Vettel - it was him who did the best job in this race. Better than Hamilton, because he gained as many places as Hamilton did (from grid to finish positions), but there's a difference between going up from 15th to 7th, and going from 11th to 3rd.

I'm no fan of any driver, but if I was, Kubica would probably be my choice. Given the car he drives, he drives it superbly. And, after many rounds in this championship, he is 3rd in the championship, 14 points behind the leader, and ahead of the current world champion (in a Ferrari).

I guess his low profile attitude has this efect. People don't even notice him much

I noticed.

It's just that it was all a matter of luck that Lewis ended up only moving up 8 positions just like Kubica did... Lewis got up to 2nd place and a possible 1st place if he didn't pit in the wet and come out on the wrong tires. That's why when he says he'd used up his tires and couldn't attack Massa... he wasn't kidding. As the track dried out, his speed advantage over Massa dwindled lap after lap after lap, and he was in danger of being passed by Webber (which resulted in said incident).

Granted, Lewis had the right to defend his line, but Webber was already alongside him when he shut the door, which was why he went off into the grass... If Webber had not kept it together, both he and Hammie would've DNF'd from the collision.

It wasn't a matter of poor strategy... McLaren's strategy would've held up if the weather did... but the weather didn't. Too bad... luck of the draw.

Of impressive driving on the day, I'd put Vettel first, Lewis second and Kubica third.

 

[darkfinal]

Drivers slam Hamilton's aggressive driving

A week after the Spa-Francorchamps penalty controversy, championship leader Lewis Hamilton's on-track antics are back in the spotlight. The McLaren driver got involved in some close encounters during Sunday's Italian grand prix, including with his old foe and former teammate, Fernando Alonso. “There was some unnecessary movements he made,” the Spaniard told reporters in his native tongue at Monza, “and he repeated them with Glock and Webber. It is his way of racing.”

Toyota's Timo Glock was also not pleased when asked about Hamilton's driving. “I do not know what he was thinking. I was right next to him but he left me no room. Sometimes he drives as though he is completely alone on the track,” the German is quoted as saying by RTL. “The next time I am with him [on track], I will behave with him in exactly the same way,” Glock promised.

23-year-old Hamilton also made contact with Red Bull's Mark Webber during a wheel to wheel battle with the Australian at the first chicane. “I made sure I covered my inside spot, but I didn't want to stay there on the wet patch or I wouldn't have made the corner,” the Briton explained afterwards. “He just clipped my front wheel and went on.”

http://www.manipef1.com/news/2008/index.php?id=2094

I'm starting to like Glock. Very much.

 

[Bram Turismo]

I can only agree with those drivers, Hamilton was driving far too aggresive when passing cars. He pushed Glock off the track, he wasn't nice to Webber either, and I'm sure I saw contact with Alonso's front left wheel when Hamilton placed his car in front of the Renault after his passing manouvre...

 

[Diego440]

Whether Hamilton risked too little or too much, I'd say his driving at least makes the races more enjoyable.

 

[Ardius]

I'm starting to dislike Hamilton more and more. Before anyone cries "Hypocrisy!" though, I still think he didn't deserve the penalty in Belgium, but that doesn't mean I instantly like the guy or particularly a fan of him.
I used to enjoy watching him race though, but it isn't enjoyable to watch him bully certain drivers on the track.

Certainly now the least liked driver on the grid.

 

[darkfinal]

Now that I think about it, it looks like Lewis has pushed everyone off in purpose as revenge for what Kimi did to him (push 'em out, the same after all).

I can't wait to see him in a not-so-good car, trying to do the same in the midfield and failing misserably.

 

[TMM]

A very good race by Hamilton, the man was mad! Just odd that he settled when he got behind Massa. Kimi was just disappointing.

Yes strange and that once he had passed Kimi he was so much faster. Like he was just settling for that position at that time.

 

[benoni2]

I think Lewis is taking some wierd atitudes. But he does that since he arrived in F1. He is amazingly great pilot... really amazing. But why he has to be such a fool!? He is not a good person at all. I, more then ever, dislike him very much as a person.

There was no need of such actions. None of´em. And he could´ve caused some very serious accidents both with Glock (wich almost went completely off the track, into that fast-righty-corner, with no space to brake in the grass whatsoever... near those barriers) and with Alonso at the end of the main straight. Both were really-really fast and if they hit themselves, wheel-to-wheel, someone could get flying around Monza not nicely at all. This is serious.

Who Hamilton thinks he is? More than ever, i hope Massa wins the championship. And if Lewis looses this championship either (IMO very hard to happen), it would be very interesting to watch how he would handle the following championship as he failed the 2 before...

 

[Bram Turismo]

Whether Hamilton risked too little or too much, I'd say his driving at least makes the races more enjoyable.

But that should not be an excuse for nearly driving other drivers off the track.


Ever since his first victory last year, I've always tought Lewis has turned more and more arrogant...

 

[Diego440]

I have a Williams documentary from the Montoya-Ralf years, where Frank Williams says that drivers aren't supposed to be good guys... in fact, while not necessary, arrogance, unadaptation and indifference to other people's actions is part of every driver.

Alonso has won 2 titles so far, and he has to be the most arrogant driver after Michael Schumacher. All the drivers are all arrogant and cocky, they have to be, to be of any talent in a race car, much like fighter pilots need to have that cocky self confidence that they will win the fight.

 

[Danny]

Alonso has won 2 titles so far, and he has to be the most arrogant driver after Michael Schumacher.

I'd say Hamilton or Villeneuve could closely contest that crown.

 

[Ardius]

I have a Williams documentary from the Montoya-Ralf years, where Frank Williams says that drivers aren't supposed to be good guys... in fact, while not necessary, arrogance, unadaptation and indifference to other people's actions is part of every driver.

Yes, they are seemingly necessary factors for a world champion...but that doesn't mean we should enjoy or look over the fact that they do become the bad guy.
And besides, we have had many world champions who were "good guys"...such as Damon Hill, Ayrton Senna, etc etc.

Alonso has won 2 titles so far, and he has to be the most arrogant driver after Michael Schumacher. All the drivers are all arrogant and cocky, they have to be, to be of any talent in a race car, much like fighter pilots need to have that cocky self confidence that they will win the fight.

Not ALL of the drivers are arrogant and cocky. And they don't HAVE to be, as with the above examples.
Examples of drivers who don't come across as arrogant and cocky in the current season:
Sebastien Vettel
Mark Webber
Heikki Kovalainen
Kimi Raikkonen
Robert Kubica
Nick Heidfeld
Rubens Barrichello
etc etc etc.

Of course self confidence and the will to win are needed....but there is a limit and there are times when a little bit of sportmanship is best.

But in the end, do you really expect everyone to like Hamilton because "he has to be a bad guy to win". Perhaps he will win championships, but we don't have to enjoy his driving because he wins.

 

[Tobias123]

I have a Williams documentary from the Montoya-Ralf years, where Frank Williams says that drivers aren't supposed to be good guys... in fact, while not necessary, arrogance, unadaptation and indifference to other people's actions is part of every driver.

Alonso has won 2 titles so far, and he has to be the most arrogant driver after Michael Schumacher. All the drivers are all arrogant and cocky, they have to be, to be of any talent in a race car, much like fighter pilots need to have that cocky self confidence that they will win the fight.

No, being a good guy is not a prerequisite for a Formula One driver. But it certainly helps if you are nice. I mean, look at people like Nelson Piquet Sr. Yeah, he won a lot of races and won a lot of championships, but he is not nearly as fondly remembered as people like Gilles Villeneuve(who won less races and less championships), or Ayrton Senna, or anyone like that. And we all know that Nelson Piquet is/was not nearly as nice or open or honest as those other drivers. For a driver who seems to be as image conscious as Lewis Hamilton, being a prick on the track is the last thing he wants.

 

[Metar]

Kimi Raikkonen

Funny that he's mentioned in that list. The move at Spa was just one of many others that seem to characterize a Kimi overtake to me - snatch a slight lead on the other car, then move over their line and force them into braking or going off - the move last week was simply the most recent and famous one. I don't see how Hamilton's move on Glock was any different compared to Kimi's move on Barrichello at Melbourne. Barrichello gave in, Glock kept going - that's the only difference.

 

[Ardius]

Funny that he's mentioned in that list. The move at Spa was just one of many others that seem to characterize a Kimi overtake to me - snatch a slight lead on the other car, then move over their line and force them into braking or going off - the move last week was simply the most recent and famous one. I don't see how Hamilton's move on Glock was any different compared to Kimi's move on Barrichello at Melbourne. Barrichello gave in, Glock kept going - that's the only difference.

Hmm, I haven't noticed that acutally. But then I haven't followed Raikkonen's driving that much until recently. Kimi's style seems entirely based off his qualifying performance, he doesn't seem to be great at battling through the field, only leading it. His qualifying performance almost entirely dictates his finishing position and he doesn't seem to like changing weather conditions at all.

 

[Tobias123]

Hmm, I haven't noticed that acutally. But then I haven't followed Raikkonen's driving that much until recently. Kimi's style seems entirely based off his qualifying performance, he doesn't seem to be great at battling through the field, only leading it. His qualifying performance almost entirely dictates his finishing position and he doesn't seem to like changing weather conditions at all.

Kimi used to be incredible at overtaking. But it seems to me like he's lost his motivation since he got at Ferrari, he doesn't destroy the competition anymore. Is it just me, or is Nick Heidfeld becoming the best overtaker? Say what you want about his form this year, some of his passing has been incredible.

 

[Milliethemutt]

we have had many world champions who were "good guys"... Ayrton Senna...

I must be thinking of a different Brazilian who punted Prost off in the final race of the season to win the world championship.

 

[Omnis]

Perhaps he will win championships, but we don't have to enjoy his driving because he wins.

I enjoy his driving even when he doesn't win. I don't root for Hamilton, but he usually wows me anyway.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Having seen no precedent myself for Hamilton's current mood, I'm gonna have to chalk this one up to a reaction of last week's general indifference from the FIA to the move Kimi Raikkonnen pulled on him, and the subsequent punishment he was the victim of. If that's the case, I do have to say it's somewhat childish to victimize others as you have been yourself. I wonder if he had a professional agent he'd let him go there.

Or maybe he didn't do it out of spite; maybe he just saw last week's developments as an indication that agressiveness is completely welcome by the FIA, and decided to step it up a little after qualifying in the back row, so as to stay in the points.

 

[livemusic]

I see nothing wrong with Hamilton's driving style, it's agressive but he's good at it.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

And besides, we have had many world champions who were "good guys"...such as Ayrton Senna, etc etc.

He wasn't really a good guy though,he took to ramming people off to win championships.....i guess this is where i leave this thread very quickly!

 

[MustangSVT]

Ayrton Senna was not a "good" guy. Damon Hill is one of few guys who was.

If you think about all of the guys who've been winning races in the last 10 years, most of the winners were "bad" guys.

"good" guys:

Mika Hakkinen
Felipe Massa
Kimi Raikkonen (debatable)
Jenson Button
Robert Kubica
Sebastien Vettel

"bad" guys:
Alonso
Michael Schumacher
Hamilton
Villeneuve
Barichello
Montoya

 

[Soundtrack]

Well, it will be hard to consider those 2 last races independently of each other, and unfortunately they do allow quite the same arguments to be used by both promoters and detractors. (Steward’s interventions and LH’s driving are questionable!)

Like other members here, I myself have to consider Hamilton's last week moves (on both the track and during interviews) have left me a bit sour about him.

So, he has had a pretty neat career-plan so far. Heading to F1 in one of the most comfortable seats on the grid. Giving a hard time at his Bi-Champion Team Mate. And missing “the crown” at his very first try by just a point. All this may have reasonably affected him.

If I were a true Lewis fan, and on a long term perspective, I would probably wish him to just mess it up again, take a break, cool off and start to focus his brain on that simple question:

“Do I want really want to ruin an unquestionable driving talent, and finish as a - unfortunately like many others - Blacklisted (no bad pun intended here) Driver/Champion?”,and indeed as SupperNumbber underlined, a professional agent could lead him to that kind of thinking...


And oh about Damon Hill(how do you make this guy move in the good direction?), the very last gentleman to have make it in F1 in my opinion. Well Mikka Hakkinen was, and...

 

[Diego440]

Nelson Piquet Sr. Yeah, he won a lot of races and won a lot of championships, but he is not nearly as fondly remembered as people like Gilles Villeneuve(who won less races and less championships), or Ayrton Senna, or anyone like that.

Funny you should mention those two, since they are DEAD!

Good guys die first, is it? Or because they are dead we try to focus on the good things they did and not remember the bad?

I'm not nitpicking your post, but I fidn it funny how a lot of people are always remembering Senna or Villeneuve as the prototypical good guy when in reality they were pretty aggressive drivers as well.

Any driver can seem like a good guy, save some very few exceptions. But when a driver has the inside line or is in the pits, the mask literally comes off.

Regarding Hamilton, I think he's pretty well off with a semi-lifetime contract at McLaren, so he pretty much is assured he'll always have a good, competitive car and be in a team able to fight for podiums, save for any design blunders. So regardless of his driving, he'll always be 'in the fight' for something big.