2008 Turkish GP

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mustang245
Blake, I'm actually referring to the golden boy's performance. Looks like last years 9 podiums/4 wins were a fluke.
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Probably the first time ever that I'm agreeing with this guy even partially. Maybe not a total fluke but last year Hamilton performed excellently against Alonso, especially before the communications cut. After that his pace began to drop compared to the Spaniard. Now there's no experienced driver in the team anymore to provide help to him and, in fact, his new team mate Kovalainen has been faster in every single qualifying this year when the weight difference from the heavier car is taken into account. Yes, Kovalainen has always driven a heavier car in the qualifying. Wonder why they always give the other guy a weight penalty equal to two or three tenths, making the gap some four or five seconds before the first pit stops...
 
mustang245
Blake, I'm actually referring to the golden boy's performance. Looks like last years 9 podiums/4 wins were a fluke. He can't copy setups anymore. I agree with Fernando, VMM doesn't have winning mentality.
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I don't agree, given what VMM have gone thorough over the last 9 months with the whole Ferrari issues, FIA investigations, pit lane demotions, fines, etc; its a wonder they are managing to do anything. Sorry but I see a lot of winning attitude from the team.

As for copying set-ups from Alonso being the only reason for his performance last year? Do you honestly believe that. First of all a slight reality check, not all drivers have a car set-up the same way (in fact very few do - hence the reason why they all have a personal engineer and race crew). Even if (and its a big if) it were true then it would also mean that he beat Alonso in the same car using Alonso's settings. It also does little to explain his performance prior to F1, or maybe Alonso stopped by to set up his GP2 car for him.

VMM have had a poor start to the season, no getting around that, but yesterdays drive shows that last year was not a fluke and as for comparisons on podiums/wins, the year is not yet over.

I like Alonso as a driver, he is without a doubt fast and capable of getting a good performance out of a car. He is also however prone to what can only be described as 'career limiting outbursts'.

(And for the record and before I get accused of bias against Renault here - I am a big fan of the team, a by product of spending six years working for Renault UK and being the guest of Renaultsport on many, many occasions.)

Regards

Scaff
 
mustang245
On a side note, two dogs made it on track during Gp2. Bruno Senna hit one, destroying his right front suspension and the dog...
Blake, I'm actually referring to the golden boy's performance. Looks like last years 9 podiums/4 wins were a fluke. He can't copy setups anymore. I agree with Fernando, VMM doesn't have winning mentality.
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One win and two podiums so far is pretty good going and on course for setting the same standard as last year. Especially seeing as the gap behind ferrari is bigger this year.
 
mustang245 – while I agree that Alonso did help Lewis to get the most out of the car from a technical standpoint, I don’t think it will be a long-term stumbling block to Lewis’s career. The less experience you have, inevitably, the poorer your technical feedback and any decisions you make will be based on opinions that are not necessarily correct and have not been properly evaluated (such as the decision by Lewis to run on hard tyres in Q3).

It may be that Lewis is not currently extracting the most from his car because he can’t get the setup right. However he is driving the wheels off it and considering the package that Ferrari has at the moment (and don’t forget BMW knocking on the door) he is undeniably doing a solid job.

You criticise his technical ability, but he has very little experience to draw from. At the moment it’s almost unfair to judge him on anything other than his raw pace and ability inside the cockpit. Especially if you want to compare his technical ability to that of Alonso, who is into his 7th F1 season and is undeniably a very clever guy with a strong technical understanding. Of course Alonso will, over a season, make more correct decisions than Lewis. Even including a correct decision by Lewis to follow Alonso’s setup. And yet somehow Lewis managed to beat him. Funny that?
 
Excellent posts all, truly. I merely find Hamilton's lack of form compared to last year amusing (delightful). Had Alonso chose NOT to holdup Hamilton @ Hungary last year, thus retaining pole, we would be looking at a different WDC, IMHO. I enjoy watching McLaren fumble for wasting the Spaniard's time. There is no question in my mind what Alonso could do with a car of McLaren's caliber.
 
I keep coming to this thread to read some reviews and thoughts about the turkish GP and 99% of what's written here is STILL about
Hamilton/Alonso,
Alonso/Hamilton,
Hamilton2007/Hamilton2008,
Alonso2007/Alonso2008

:indiff:

contributing to this endless discussion for one last time I would just like to point out that, in my opinion, they're both excellent drivers ... and that I don't give a [censured by poster] about their personal problem with each other, as long as they race as they should, getting whatever they can from the car they're driving, in each season that has them driving.

PS - a few more years from now all this will look as relevant as the discussions about Hakkinen/Schumacher, or Senna/Prost (and this one will ever be, probably, the "mother of all discussions" about the on and off-track rivalry of two drivers :sly: ).
 
Metar
Ever struggling? He finished 6th, best of the rest... :rolleyes:
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Sorry if I say this but I'm a little disappointed after his brilliant effort in Spain (he was still 3rd before he retired) and to see him being overtaken by Kimi was just helpless. The Ferrari had more of everything than that R28. He can't even match the pace of the BMW..... but yeah, a good effort indeed. 👍

Metar
It couldn't be a one-stop, simply because his first stop came on lap 2. You can think, but there's no way it's possible - when he came for his last stop, long after everyone else completed their second stop, he was only 8th, and that was on the better tyre. Starting on Prime, there was no way to one-stop on the Options...
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🤬, I meant a 2 pit stop strategy (I was saying 1 excluding the tire change) I don't know if I remember correctly but he didn't have any fuel put in during that first pit stop and he had to do a 3 pit stop strategy which threw his chances of getting points. But its weird that McLaren gambled on a 3 pit stop strategy on both of the drivers, even when Heikki didn't have a chance of getting into the top 5.......
 
Hun200kmh-
It's a forum, full of opinions and lively debate. If you want the news go to PlanetF1,CrashNet,etc. Better yet, watch the race. Then, come here and discuss...
Greycap- "this guy"? Ha!
Muz- Bridgestone specifically advised McLaren on a 3 stopper because Hamilton is hard on tires, especially turn 8. Remember last year? Turn 8...
 
Muzaffar Musa
But its weird that McLaren gambled on a 3 pit stop strategy on both of the drivers, even when Heikki didn't have a chance of getting into the top 5.......
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They had too because Bridgestone told them they would die otherwise.

Allegedly.
 
mustang245
I enjoy watching McLaren fumble for wasting the Spaniard's time.
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I would hardly call being third in the constructors championship (with only a two point shortfall on second) and having drivers third and sixth in the drivers championship to be fumbling? At the end of the day that is not a bad position to be in 5 races into an 18 race year.

If you want a team that dropped the ball by wasting a chance with Alonso, then look no further than Renault. A team that went to the back of the mid-field the year after the dropped him and are still struggling to get back to the front of the grid over a year later.


mustang245
There is no question in my mind what Alonso could do with a car of McLaren's caliber.
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I don't disagree with that at all, however even as a fan of Alonso I'm sure you would agree that he didn't exactly make the situation any easier himself.


Regards

Scaff
 
Based on VMM's passive-aggressive attitude from the beginning towards him, and giving a rookie equal treatment, I expected nothing less.
 
Wow Fisichella sucks hard :lol:
I think Mclaren made a complete hash of their pit stop strategies, granted the puncture was out of their hands but they could have fueled poor Kovalainen heavy at the start so when he clawed himself back to the points he wouldn't have to pit again:grumpy:
 
Slick Rick
Wow Fisichella sucks hard :lol:
I think Mclaren made a complete hash of their pit stop strategies, granted the puncture was out of their hands but they could have fueled poor Kovalainen heavy at the start so when he clawed himself back to the points he wouldn't have to pit again:grumpy:
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Heikki was always going to have to stop twice more after his initial stop to replace the punctured tyre. Even if the car has the capacity to take half a race distance of fuel, I'm sure the soft tyres, which he had to use at some point, wouldn't have lasted half a race distance.
 
Slick Rick
Wow Fisichella sucks hard :lol:
I think Mclaren made a complete hash of their pit stop strategies, granted the puncture was out of their hands but they could have fueled poor Kovalainen heavy at the start so when he clawed himself back to the points he wouldn't have to pit again:grumpy:
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Once Q3 is over, your fuel level is 'locked' under parc ferme. ie, Q3 left-over is race load at GP start.
 
mustang245
On a side note, two dogs made it on track during Gp2. Bruno Senna hit one, destroying his right front suspension and the dog...
Blake, I'm actually referring to the golden boy's performance. Looks like last years 9 podiums/4 wins were a fluke. He can't copy setups anymore. I agree with Fernando, VMM doesn't have winning mentality.
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Doggie is no more...This kind of situation is unacceptable

 
Not only that, but Jarno makes Toyota perform well.

Now that Ralf stopped whining, it does seem they perform better. But in my eyes, Trulli's still the man at Toyota, he keeps doing an excellent job out there 👍


About the discussion; who the hell is VMM?
 
Bram Turismo
About the discussion; who the hell is VMM?
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Vodafone McLaren Mercedes? ;)
Well that video of the GP2 was awful. How did the dogs get loose in such a track. The way Bruno hit that dog was.......... :scared: :crazy:
 
mustang245
Once Q3 is over, your fuel level is 'locked' under parc ferme. ie, Q3 left-over is race load at GP start.
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I think he ment why didn't they fill Kovalinen full of fuel when he came to change the puncture, rather than at the actual start of the race.

Bram Turismo
Aah :cheers:
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It took me a while to work it out too - I kept reading it as VJM, or Vijay Mallya :)
 
mustang245
Based on VMM's passive-aggressive attitude from the beginning towards him, and giving a rookie equal treatment, I expected nothing less.
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Well before signing on the dotted line for VMM he should have known full well what the situation would be. First off McLaren are a team well know for giving equal status to team mates and not having a problem with them competing with each other, secondly Hamilton's 'rookie' status was and always has been a red herring, the team have been preparing him for that seat since he was a teenager.

Sorry but if Alonso wasn't aware of these things before he joined the team, then more fool him. To then throw his teddies out of the pram when a situation, that my cat could have predicted, happened is just plain daft. Perhaps he should have joined a team with a track record for favouring a lead driver, oh wait he's still waiting for a Ferrari slot to open up, and should that happen, watch him drop Renault.

As I have said before he is an amazingly talented driver, but he also has no team loyalty at all (that's neither good nor bad - it just is) and is rather prone to 'outburst' when things don't go his way. Attempting to push all the responsibility for last year back on McLaren just strikes me as rather naive. Alonso and the team could have both handled certain situations better last year, and the same could be said of this year.....


Alonso
"I always try to be in the best car. I'm at Renault because we won in 2005 and '06 and I want to do that again, this year or next," Alonso said.

"But when the option of leaving exists, I will try to be in the best car possible and it's clear Ferrari is one of the best."
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Source - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7312280.stm

...lets be honest I bet that did wonders for team morale at Renault.


Regards

Scaff
 
mustang245
Metar, what was your purpose in quoting me in #85?
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No purpose, just lost that quote somewhere. :p

mustang245
Had Alonso chose NOT to holdup Hamilton @ Hungary last year, thus retaining pole, we would be looking at a different WDC, IMHO.
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It would've looked different, but have you considered that Hamilton had a very likely chance to get that pole on his final hotlap? But indeed, in retrospect, 2nd would've been enough for Alonso - but who knows if other events wouldn't have happened in that case?

Muzaffar Musa
Sorry if I say this but I'm a little disappointed after his brilliant effort in Spain (he was still 3rd before he retired) and to see him being overtaken by Kimi was just helpless. The Ferrari had more of everything than that R28. He can't even match the pace of the BMW..... but yeah, a good effort indeed. 👍

🤬, I meant a 2 pit stop strategy (I was saying 1 excluding the tire change) I don't know if I remember correctly but he didn't have any fuel put in during that first pit stop and he had to do a 3 pit stop strategy which threw his chances of getting points. But its weird that McLaren gambled on a 3 pit stop strategy on both of the drivers, even when Heikki didn't have a chance of getting into the top 5.......
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Yes, the car was 4th-best in the last two rounds. That's where they were last year... ;)

And nope - Heikki got a splash of fuel added during that tyre-change, which allowed him to stay out for 28 laps (!), with one more in the end. The McLaren isn't kind enough on the tyres to survive another 30 laps with the Option compound.

mustang245
Is it just me or does Toyota seem to be doing better without Ralph Schumacher?
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Not just you - better car (The TF108 is unarguably better), and while Glock hasn't impressed me much, it seems as though they're finally gearing the car 100% towards Trulli's preferences.
 
Metar, well said.
I'm starting to like Trulli more and more. I believe he suffered much in RSC era. He was loyal to the Spaniard, and that counts with me. Now, to get rid of Fisichella and give Liuzzi another shot... I go now, I've shot my mouth off enough. *applause*
 
mustang245
Now, to get rid of Fisichella and give Liuzzi another shot...
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Sutil's being demolished by the aging Italian - I doubt Vijay will sack him any time soon: He's an experienced driver, occasional race-winner with lots of developmental experience, and he finally got his chance of being equal. He's currently busy being un-equal by stomping his teammate, who so far finished just a single race, in almost every qualifying session. Sutil, on the other hand, retired from the opening four races, usually with collisions.

I'm not saying Sutil isn't good - I'm just saying, while he obviously drove well last season (considering the equipment), perhaps Sakon and Christijan weren't the best measurement-tools? It reached the almost ridiculous situation of Fisichella participating in races, while a true comparison was never completed due to their inability to stay on the track together. Four times it was Sutil (twice with Vettel!), once Fisichella who decided to fly above Kazuki. :indiff:


But anything that gets Liuzzi and Sato back on the track is fine with me. :D
 
What about Speed? I think both of the former Torro Rosso drivers should've deserved more chances in the past...oh well...


More on Trulli, no matter how long he's been in F1, he always does a very good job for his team. Look back at 2005, Toyota were incredibly strong, but it was always Trulli that had the upperhand over Ralf. Even now, for a 2009 season with my own team, I wouldn't doubt a single second on Trulli's capabilities as a driver... He's one of those great drivers that never got lucky enough to get to those big teams to get a drivers title like Heidfeld, Fisichella or Webber... These kind of drivers are my favourit drivers 👍

On that, Glock is nowhere, if anyone to replace him, who would you pick? There would definitly be some interesting combos with Trulli out there, but who would work best for Toyota? I don't think it would be wise to fire Trulli, Jarno really brought Toyota were it is now in my opinion 👍
 
Bram Turismo
What about Speed? I think both of the former Torro Rosso drivers should've deserved more chances in the past...oh well...


More on Trulli, no matter how long he's been in F1, he always does a very good job for his team. Look back at 2005, Toyota were incredibly strong, but it was always Trulli that had the upperhand over Ralf. Even now, for a 2009 season with my own team, I wouldn't doubt a single second on Trulli's capabilities as a driver... He's one of those great drivers that never got lucky enough to get to those big teams to get a drivers title like Heidfeld, Fisichella or Webber... These kind of drivers are my favourit drivers 👍

On that, Glock is nowhere, if anyone to replace him, who would you pick? There would definitly be some interesting combos with Trulli out there, but who would work best for Toyota? I don't think it would be wise to fire Trulli, Jarno really brought Toyota were it is now in my opinion 👍
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Scott found a home with Stock Cars, currently racing in ARCA and Craftsman Trucks, both of which receive little coverage outside the US. To be honest, that's a name I'm looking forward to seeing on the Nationwide grid - finally a somewhat-familiar name, after Villeneuve gave up.

As for Trulli, well, that's F1. He's been in the game for a long while, he's like a newer Frentzen - probably skilled, but never in the right car. And he brought Toyota to where it is now - which isn't much. (but that's not his fault) :p
 
Bram Turismo
What about Speed? I think both of the former Torro Rosso drivers should've deserved more chances in the past...oh well...


More on Trulli, no matter how long he's been in F1, he always does a very good job for his team. Look back at 2005, Toyota were incredibly strong, but it was always Trulli that had the upperhand over Ralf. Even now, for a 2009 season with my own team, I wouldn't doubt a single second on Trulli's capabilities as a driver... He's one of those great drivers that never got lucky enough to get to those big teams to get a drivers title like Heidfeld, Fisichella or Webber... These kind of drivers are my favourit drivers 👍

On that, Glock is nowhere, if anyone to replace him, who would you pick? There would definitly be some interesting combos with Trulli out there, but who would work best for Toyota? I don't think it would be wise to fire Trulli, Jarno really brought Toyota were it is now in my opinion 👍
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I believe that Glock just to have the grips of the car. Some races he just had some bad luck.
 

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