2009 Belgian Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Peter
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And for the love of God, for all people out there quoting me... as a sign of courtesy, stop quoting small portions of what I say, taking out of the context, and then basing your points solely on that (and adding editorial comment, because it's something I wish to do many times, but I don't do it because of respect). Read the whole thing and then give an opinion on my whole post. I tend to investigate quite a lot before I say something, so at least pretend you care about it, otherwise the discussion will go nowhere.

If you believe something is being taken out of context, you can simply clarify that on your response. Otherwise, people are gonna keep quoting the important snippets that are representative of whatever point you're trying to make.

Writing a wall of text doesn't help either. Giving an opinion on one specific point is much more efficient and easier to understand than responding to one long winded ramble.

ON TOPIC: Your videos are worthless. No offence, but they don't "prove" your point. Why? Because I can just as easily find instances where a driver BLATANTLY cut a chicane and wasn't penalized (Schumacher-DeLaRosa @ Hungary '06 comes to mind) If we're to use past non-enforcements intead of the wording of the rules themselves, then cutting chicanes is also legal, blatantly so as shown in some instances.
 
So to summarize, the whole point of the argument is whether the Article 30.3.a applies only to cutting through the chicane or putting all four wheels outside the lines at any point in the track.

The article says drivers must use only the track. Further articles mark the track as being the bit between the solid white lines.

We all agree that cutting a chicane is illegal

Not if no advantage is gained by doing so.

So if it applies to run-off areas too we should be quite familiar with drivers having their quali laps canceled, or getting warnings and even penalties during the race for the use of run-off area, right? Well, this isn't the case.

Indeed it isn't the case but, as you say, it should be. That's the point.

The rules are never applied with any consistency. Seemingly drivers are penalised or not on a whim - last year they even had to write a new rule (if you give an advantage back, you cannot then seek to regain it until after the next corner) and then retroactively apply it to the race! They even completely ignored several other offences against the Article - including but not limited to drivers using the runoff at Pouhon to open the curve and preserve speed - by every other driver in the race.

All we want is for all drivers to be covered by all rules all the time.


And for the love of God, for all people out there quoting me... as a sign of courtesy, stop quoting small portions of what I say, taking out of the context, and then basing your points solely on that (and adding editorial comment, because it's something I wish to do many times, but I don't do it because of respect). Read the whole thing and then give an opinion on my whole post.

You make several points in your post. I'd rather respond individually to each point - and since I'm not changing your words in any way I don't understand how they can be taken out of context.
 
This is a pointless argument. It's not going to change the result. Seriously guys, bin the Ferrari International Assistance garbage and deal with the result, hmm?

Yes Kimi left the track, Hamilton did it in 07 and it's been done plenty before (some examples shown above.) Kimi technically covered more distance by going off the track anyway and was avoiding potential incidents.

👍
 
The article says drivers must use only the track. Further articles mark the track as being the bit between the solid white lines.
Well, I remember last year on the Fuji race when Massa overtook someone almost touching the wall on the straight away. Someone raised the concern of whether it was legal to go beyond the white line, which he did in that occasion (unfortunately I couldn't find the video, but it was a breathtaking maneuver). So my guess is that the interpretation isn't so literal.

Not if no advantage is gained by doing so.
If in Monaco you cut the chicane of qualifying your lap is canceled no matter what. And during the race we all remember the warnings Massa got this year.

Indeed it isn't the case but, as you say, it should be. That's the point.

The rules are never applied with any consistency. Seemingly drivers are penalised or not on a whim - last year they even had to write a new rule (if you give an advantage back, you cannot then seek to regain it until after the next corner) and then retroactively apply it to the race! They even completely ignored several other offences against the Article - including but not limited to drivers using the runoff at Pouhon to open the curve and preserve speed - by every other driver in the race.

All we want is for all drivers to be covered by all rules all the time.
Fair enough, but that's more a complaint about FIA lack of clarity. That isn't necessarily saying FIA was unfair on Kimi's case. I'll explain in further details later.

SUPER NUMBBER
Your videos are worthless. No offence, but they don't "prove" your point. Why? Because I can just as easily find instances where a driver BLATANTLY cut a chicane and wasn't penalized (Schumacher-DeLaRosa @ Hungary '06 comes to mind) If we're to use past non-enforcements intead of the wording of the rules themselves, then cutting chicanes is also legal, blatantly so as shown in some instances.
Well, there is a difference. I can't remember what you've mentioned, but over the years drivers who cut chicanes have been consistently punished. If at one point it wasn't done, then it was an exception (which I can't discuss because as I said I don't remember any such incident). But I'll tell you why the videos are important:

Taking the example of our legal system, when judges have to sentence someone they'll not only look at the law, they'll look at case laws, in other words, similar cases that happened in the past and how they were handled (in other words, how the law was interpreted). So the question is: has any driver ever been penalized for cutting a chicane? Yes. Has any driver ever been penalized for using the run-off area? No. And the videos show that this has been done for years, by different drivers, in different tracks. In other words, if it has been done for years and never punished, why would we have to interpret it differently now?

Someone might argue that since the rules were changed, the previous arguments would be invalid. But the Rosberg video shows that even in 2009, after the rules were changed, drivers kept going beyond the track limits to take advantage and still have not been punished (there could be other drivers too, but I would have to watch the whole Australian GP weekend, which I'm not gonna do).

Therefore, based on those videos, it's safe to say the interpretation given so far in that case would make Kimi's move legal. Any punishment would be an arbitrary change in interpretation. Now whether the interpretation is ideal is another discussion. But we have to keep in mind that whatever interpretation is given, it has to be the same for all.
 
If in Monaco you cut the chicane of qualifying your lap is canceled no matter what. And during the race we all remember the warnings Massa got this year.

If you leave the boundaries of the white lines on any track, your qualifying time is cancelled except on corners where there is an additional concrete/astroturf (not tarmac) strip directly adjoining a rumble strip.

It's worth noting also that rumble strips are actually outside the white lines.


Fair enough, but that's more a complaint about FIA lack of clarity.

I'd say it was their consistency - they never seem to apply the same punishment to the same offence twice.

interpretation ... interpreted ... interpret ... interpretation ... interpretation ... interpretation ... interpretation

I fear this is also the issue (with the FIA, not you).

A sufficiently good rulebook doesn't need interpreting. Take the GTP_Registry rules - you either break them or you don't, and they were made by a handful of people for fun.

As far as the FIA rulebook goes, drivers are not allowed to leave the boundaries of the solid white lines during the race. Where they do, they aren't permitted to gain positional advantage. Where they do, they must cede the advantage back and not seek to regain it until after the following corner. Kimi left the track, gained positional advantage and didn't give it back.
 
I'd say the FIA is quite consistent with first corner incidents like these. They also didn't say anything about Fernando alonso in the singapore GP last year. He didn't give his advantage back either.
 
Ok, fair enough. There's only one last thing I'd like to add on the interpretation matter: the silence from other drivers and teams would lead me to believe they all think the interpretation given by the FIA was correct in that case.

Perhaps the problem is that the communication with fans from FIA's part is weak, so while all the teams and drivers know about it the fans are left confused with little information.
 
Ok, fair enough. There's only one last thing I'd like to add on the interpretation matter: the silence from other drivers and teams would lead me to believe they all think the interpretation given by the FIA was correct in that case.

Or maybe the window to protest was too small and they didn't notice.

Or maybe they know the FIA uses lodged protests as toilet paper...

Maybe they thought there was little to gain from trying to convince the FIA that they made a mistake.
 
Or maybe the window to protest was too small and they didn't notice.

Or maybe they know the FIA uses lodged protests as toilet paper...

Maybe they thought there was little to gain from trying to convince the FIA that they made a mistake.

even if all of that where true (which 2 out of 3 normally are but maybe not in this case hypothetically) you would expect at least one team to make mention of it to the press at some point in a post race interview if they thought it was wrong. not once have i herd a peep about it in any press coverage only from here.
 
Just for the record, with some relevance to this past race: according to the commentators on German pay-tv, the stewards officially announced for Monza that the "emergency exit" of the first corner can be used in the first lap to avoid accidents, but only if the driver has no advantage by doing so. Now, I'm terribly eager to see what will happen in Monza tomorrow, and whether any happenings will probably have any bearing on the wildly discussed "Kimi-incident" of Spa.
 
Maybe just a storm in a glass of water, but apparently the circuit of Spa has just seen it’s operation license suspended by the highest Court in Belgium following a complaint by locals residents. Hopefully not another Belgian Political Fiasco for Francorchamp.:ouch:
 
I heard about that, something to do with an over-zealous judge. The residents just wanted the number of events scaled back, but the judge went ahead and revoked the licence anyway. But Spa will probably be on the 2010 calendar, anyway; FOM have a year to work it out.
 
Ummm, they CHOSE to live there... What right do they have to complain in the first place? :lol:

I can understand if it was a street circuit and you had to go away for the weekend to get away from those horrible and disgusting car noises, but a permanent track that has had houses and farmland beside it since the friggen' dawn of time? If I could afford to live next to race track I'd totally ROCK IT.

Which leads to a question: What kind of imbecile do you have to be, to sell a house next to race track to a non-auto enthusiast? Just think of the money they could make on those houses if they advertised to race fans. Perhaps they already have, but I suspect they haven't.
 
Yep. Spa's been hosting races since 1922.

Happily, though:

Autosport
Noise row temporarily closes Spa

By Edd Straw Wednesday, September 23rd 2009, 17:04 GMT

Belgian Grand Prix venue Spa Francorchamps has been reopened following the suspension of a ruling which temporarily closed the circuit because of noise complaints, AUTOSPORT understands.

The track was briefly closed in response to complaints raised by a not-for-profit anti-noise organisation whose name literally translates as 'the quiet ones'. Although the group originally lodged its objection in 2007, the local authorities did not take action until this week, when a 17-year closure order was imposed.

However, following a meeting of government officials, sources have said that the closure of the circuit has been called off pending further legal discussions to take place next week following Spa's decision to appeal against the decision.

This means that this weekend's blue riband Spa Six Hours historic event can go ahead, although a lasting solution to the noise disputes still needs to be found.

Circuit boss Pierre-Alain Thibaut admitted in an interview with Belgium's Le Soir that the situation "calls the whole viability of the track into question", but added that since the original complaints were made the track has made significant developments in reducing the environmental impact of its activities.

"Since the complaint was made, the situation has changed," said Thibaut. "The track has worked hard to reduce noise pollution and our relationship with local residents has been much improved."

Sources at Spa claim that the track complies with the stipulated noise limits, and are hopeful that the situation will not threaten the long-term future of the circuit.
 
Ummm, they CHOSE to live there... What right do they have to complain in the first place? :lol:

I can understand if it was a street circuit and you had to go away for the weekend to get away from those horrible and disgusting car noises, but a permanent track that has had houses and farmland beside it since the friggen' dawn of time? If I could afford to live next to race track I'd totally ROCK IT.

Which leads to a question: What kind of imbecile do you have to be, to sell a house next to race track to a non-auto enthusiast? Just think of the money they could make on those houses if they advertised to race fans. Perhaps they already have, but I suspect they haven't.

I thought the same thing with regards to many British circuits like Brands Hatch but I guess people are stupid enough to move there not realising the circuit produces a fair bit of noise.
 
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