2009 Italian Grand Prix

[Roo]

So, people, should Trulli have tried to stick with Glock at Lesmo 1, even though he didn't realisticly have a chance of keeping position?

I don't remember people being this supportive of Kimi when he crashed out while trying to chase Lewis during the last laps of Spa last year.

If that's aimed at me, please quote me from the Belgium 2008 thread.

 

[Famine]

Wasn't Lewis chasing Kimi during the last laps of Spa last year?

 

[LSX]

One of the more exciting races this season IMO. There seemed to be some fast paced action this race, lot's of passing as well. Good showing for Force India, Liuzzi looks to be very much on par, especially for not driving for two years. Let's see if they can keep up the pace for the rest of the season, on tracks that are not high speed low downforce. Great strategy on the Brawn cars, congrats to Rubens, I'd like to see him take the title this year. Vettle was driving like a madman the first few laps, sliding and twitching rear end, I thought he was going to stuff it too for a moment. Overall good race, looking forward to Shanghai as I missed it last year, hopefully it's exciting.

 

[GTP_rpm]

Gotta love the Hamilton fan boi's representing their blind faith and love for the kid.

Coming in 3rd behind the two Brawns would've been an excellent result. The fact he was on pole, was superficial. Net qualifying he was even behind his team mate, when fuel corrected...so, he should have been contented with knowing he beat the rest of the field.

Most of all, I feel sorry for his mechanics. No.2 mechanics, are on around £23-26k a year and spend nearly half their lives away from family, friends and other loved ones. The bonuses they get, for podiums and pole positions etc, are relatively extortionate.

I can assure you, they will not be sat there thinking to themselves "well at least he's a racer, the more he does that the better" or "...gotta love Lewis, he's got amazing car control and he really believed he could catch and pass Button who was in a faster car, who was cruising...just brilliant...I'd give me bonus up to see that happen any day of the week!" ...

I wet myself when he did it. His arrogence, to think he could've caught and passed the Brawn despite what traffic was coming up, is just beyond my comprehension. Being part of a great racing driver is about tyre managent, fuel management...and above all, making it to the end of the race.

No doubt he'll have his card-board cut-out grinning face on for the next race, where he'll have more sound-bytes that've been uploaded into his brain for cash.

/meow.

 

[Lee]

So, people, should Trulli have tried to stick with Glock at Lesmo 1, even though he didn't realisticly have a chance of keeping position?

I don't think many people up and down the grid would've played it any different. Atleast Toyota are happy for their drivers to nearly end eachother's races, don't see that much these days.

I wonder if the dirt brought onto the track by Trulli had any play in Hamilton's spin. [/controversy]

 

[Ardius]

Gotta love the Hamilton fan boi's representing their blind faith and love for the kid.

Coming in 3rd behind the two Brawns would've been an excellent result. The fact he was on pole, was superficial. Net qualifying he was even behind his team mate, when fuel corrected...so, he should have been contented with knowing he beat the rest of the field.

Most of all, I feel sorry for his mechanics. No.2 mechanics, are on around £23-26k a year and spend nearly half their lives away from family, friends and other loved ones. The bonuses they get, for podiums and pole positions etc, are relatively extortionate.

I can assure you, they will not be sat there thinking to themselves "well at least he's a racer, the more he does that the better" or "...gotta love Lewis, he's got amazing car control and he really believed he could catch and pass Button who was in a faster car, who was cruising...just brilliant...I'd give me bonus up to see that happen any day of the week!" ...

I wet myself when he did it. His arrogence, to think he could've caught and passed the Brawn despite what traffic was coming up, is just beyond my comprehension. Being part of a great racing driver is about tyre managent, fuel management...and above all, making it to the end of the race.

No doubt he'll have his card-board cut-out grinning face on for the next race, where he'll have more sound-bytes that've been uploaded into his brain for cash.

/meow.

Normally I would agree with you, rpm, but on this occasion I don't.

Why would the mechanics be annoyed at him for this? He's the world champion, he became world champion through driving like he did yesterday, yes it means its more likely to make mistakes and lose points but at the end of the day thats how you win.
But more importantly, it makes him such an exciting driver to watch. Would we rather have a field of Kovalinen's who drop through the field like a stone?

Whether or not Lewis could have caught Button is largely irrelevant. There is an interesting case in point going on here.
Kovalainen could have secured a victory here but failed to show the initiative to obtain it. Lewis had little chance of victory but showed the willingness to try anyway. Which would you consider a good racing driver? Which is currently world champion? Which is the only one to win in the 2009 McLaren? Which was the one who crashed out of most of the early races when it was important to obtain data because of the lack of testing?

So, people, should Trulli have tried to stick with Glock at Lesmo 1, even though he didn't realisticly have a chance of keeping position?

Same as Lewis - its great for us the fans and says a lot about the drivers. I would rather have all drivers battling for position than playing it safe. Quite regularly the best action in races is in the midfield/backend of the race and drivers shouldn't be discouraged from putting on such a good show.
They weren't in the points so there was little point in driving safe, not to mention the Toyota engines had the worst top speeds over the weekend, may as well let them battle it out.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lewis had little chance of victory but showed the willingness to try anyway.

Nelson Piquet had little chance of victory when he was racing, but one could argue that he had a willingness to try regardless. Look how that ended for him.

 

[bicycleshorts]

I don't think Hamilton had a hope in Haites, of getting 2nd. Button did have a couple cars to pass on the last lap, but were they going to dematreialize for Hamilton ...Noooo

Yeah, using traffic to create a chance won't ever work.

...he should have been contented with knowing he beat the rest of the field.

Yep, you're right. Just like here, he should have been content with last place. Gone for a nice Sunday drive and looked forward to Yorkshire puds and mash when he got home.

[Youtube]xDgpS4kx88s[/media]

I'm not even going to comment on feeling sorry for people doing their dream job in the middle of a recession when thousands are unemployed.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

Nelson Piquet had little chance of victory when he was racing, but one could argue that he had a willingness to try regardless. Look how that ended for him.

You're comparing Hamilton's occasional mistakes to Piquet's occasional finishes?

 

[niky]

Wasn't Lewis chasing Kimi during the last laps of Spa last year?

Not according to the FIA... after retconning their rulebook, then the race...

-

I, for one, absolutely loved the Toyota catfight. I'm pretty sure the team boss in the pits was absolutely screaming his head off... but these are two drivers trying to prove why they should be number one man on the team. Lovely.

Toyota's another team that won't make the championship whatever happens in the next few races, so the drivers are just pushing all out for whatever results they can get.

Nelson Piquet had little chance of victory when he was racing, but one could argue that he had a willingness to try regardless. Look how that ended for him.

Having willingness and showing both willingness and ability are two different things.

Romain Grosjean showed more willingness in one qualifying session last race than Piquet showed in the past two seasons in Renault.

-

Gotta love the Hamilton fan boi's representing their blind faith and love for the kid.

Gotta love the Hamilton haterz... booing Lewis for taking it easy, cruising to world championship last year... now that he has no chance of a championship, he's being silly by pushing to the limit and trying for an outside chance at a higher spot on the podium?

-

I was disappointed with Hamilton's last race of 2008. Took it too easy, played it too safe, and almost lost the championship that way.

I'd rather see him pushing the envelope. And I think it's here, in this season where he's got a crappy car, that we're starting to see more character out of Hamilton. There are still a lot of "rookie" mistakes... but he pushes... pushes hard... and outdrives Hekki by a fair bit.

This is also why I respect Alonso... there's a guy who never says die... stuck in an uncompetitive car, he drives it hard enough to put it at least a few places higher in the order than it could actually go if driven by someone else.

People complain that F1 is not exciting. It's become a procession. Overtaking doesn't happen. But that's not true. We should be thankful that there are some guys out there willing to make excitement happen. Hell... even Trulli is becoming more aggressive!

If each driver merely settled for places, every time, F1 would simply be one big "Trulli-train", every single race.

(I know it's a judgement call... and probably the wrong one... but again... Lewis really had nothing to lose. No way was he going to make WC again, anyway... so why not go for the gold? )

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You're comparing Hamilton's occasional mistakes to Piquet's occasional finishes?

I'm simply making a case for using the same logic you people are using to defend Hamilton to defend Piquet.

Look, Hamilton crashed. It wasn't a mechanical failure, but a driver error that caused it. And while a never-say-die attitude s a good thing to have, there comes a time where you have to exercise a little self-restraint. Hamilton didn't, and he put himself out of the running. And it's not the first time, either. He tried to win the race at the first corner in Germany, and look how that turned out for him. He did something similar in Japan last year, and another similar result. The only difference this time is that he tried too hard at the end of the race as opposed to the start of it.

The only way Hamilton could have beaten Button was if Button made a mistake, it's as simple as that. But instead, he tried too hard, pushed too hard, and found the armco as his reward. I can't believe you people ar actually acting as if his crash was better than a third place. As has been said, Hamilton might be out of the hunt for the drivers' title, but McLaren are still fighting Ferrari for third in the constructors' standings. How exacty does crashing out benefit that cause?

Hamilton screwed up, pure and simple. And call me crazy, but I actually think that finishing in third is a better result than putting it nose-first into the armco.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

I can't believe you people ar actually acting as if his crash was better than a third place. As has been said, Hamilton might be out of the hunt for the drivers' title, but McLaren are still fighting Ferrari for third in the constructors' standings. How exacty does crashing out benefit that cause?

His driving is the reason McLaren are even in contention at all! I'm not the one saying a crash is better than 3rd, but you wanna hang him for this one time when his pushing didn't pay off.

Tell you what; you can keep your Kimi drivers, I'll take Lewis types...any...day

 

[NapoleonMikey]

i dont think anyone said not finishing was better then finishing 3rd. i think people are making the call though that he was actually trying to get a better result then just setteling. and as for passing button as long as he could have gotten on buttons tail all he would have to do is force his way past button because button will not fight back thats for sure. button has no choice but to finish the race if he wants to win the WDC. the crash just happened to be bad luck on his part. took the same line as always and it being a fact that maybe his tyres where to worn (not likely being on a 2 stop) or the painted section just was to slippery that lap it lead to him putting it in the wall. but i know if i knew i had a chance to push hard and possibly get a better position and i wasnt in the hunt for the championship i would take it. lets take this example lets say hamilton was in the chase for the championship and about the place in points where barachello is now. knowing you have a chance to get 2 more points would you push that hard? no matter how you look at it a driver should always be pushing 100% going for the best place possible unless hes in the position that Hamilton was in last year and button is in this year then its a points game.

 

[niky]

As I was pointing out earlier... Mclaren had been banging those curbs all day long with no effect. It's one of their advantages over the Ferrari, as the chassis has more give and is more forgiving in such situations.

It didn't seem that he did anything different that lap... maybe got on the gas around 1/100th of a second too early... compared to the last 52 flying laps he did.

It was likely driver error... but the same style and push got him that far... he probably figured... why not go for broke?

Piquet, on the other hand... has never had the pace... even at a push... made silly mistakes... and is now practically dead to the F1 world. Yes, there's probably no difference in terms of scoring at darts if you land it 1 inch from the bullseye or 1 foot from the bullseye (of course... 1 foot from the bullseye puts the dart completely off the board...) but you're not likely to declare that the guy landing it 1 foot from the bullseye was "close".

 

[Bram Turismo]

Why Trulli had a go at Glock? "I was bored" (Dutch website).

!

 

[Prince.M5]

Why Trulli had a go at Glock? "I was bored" (Dutch website).

!

He was bored??

He nearly collide with his own team mate and ruin Toyota weekend!!! Maybe he just ego and have a move after he lost the battle between Nakajima... That's what I call reputation It's his home race too...

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong

 

[sejtur]

His driving is the reason McLaren are even in contention at all! I'm not the one saying a crash is better than 3rd, but you wanna hang him for this one time when his pushing didn't pay off.

Tell you what; you can keep your Kimi drivers, I'll take Lewis types...any...day

Kimi crashed last year in Spa too, in the one to last lap. Pushing very hard. You should see him in the same way then...

When Kimi crashes, he will be bashed because he crashes.
When Lewis crashes, he will be glorified because he pushed.

What a world huh.

 

[Ardius]

Hamilton screwed up, pure and simple. And call me crazy, but I actually think that finishing in third is a better result than putting it nose-first into the armco.

I don't think that was Hamilton's intention.

Just as much as we apparently think crashing is better than finishing, you're almost suggesting he decided himself that crashing was better. Its not like he took a big gamble going wide at Lesmos. Lots of people had been going wide there all day and it was quite clearly a massive surprise when he lost it.

But, if you want a boring race with people being careful on the last lap and not having a go, I'm sure there are plenty of other drivers to watch.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I still consider myself a Gilles Villeneuve fan. Therefore, I thank Lewis Hamilton for his impressive qualifying runs in the last laps, against all hope

And, anyway, unless the team tells a driver to hold position (I don't think that hapened) I think it's his duty to "go for it".

 

[tibiquera]

I'm not really a Hamilton fan, who's is my view way overrated. But I think it's unreasonable the criticism on him. He did his job of pushing the car to the limit, and any decent driver would try to do the same if there was any hope of overtaking.

 

[Bram Turismo]

He was bored??

He nearly collide with his own team mate and ruin Toyota weekend!!! Maybe he just ego and have a move after he lost the battle between Nakajima... That's what I call reputation It's his home race too...

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong

Toyota's weekend was pretty much ruined from day 1, they knew they weren't going to perform decently. So the race turned out as expected, and Trulli just picked up some fun where possible, in this case with his own teammate. There's nothing to blame Trulli for, other than bringing us a good laugh and showing his will to fight for every place, even when out of the top 10.

On the whole Kovalainen-Hamilton thing. Hamilton only has 7 points more than his teammate, yet Nakajima on the other hand has scored 0 points so far; 30.5 points less than his teammate, Rosberg. 30.5.

 

[Ardius]

Well, if were going to compare all 2nd drivers (except Ferrari and Force India for obvious reasons):
Barrichello - 14 points
Webber - 2.5 points
Nakajima - 30.5 points
Kovalainen - 7 points
Glock - 6.5 points
Piquet Jr/Grosjean - 20 points
Kubica - 4 points
Alguesuari - 3 points

Points differences mean very little this season really, because the order of the teams changes from race to race and its difficult for teammates to beat each other each race while scoring points as well.
For example, Barrichello may have scored less points than Button so far, but he out-performed him in the last 6 races. His points don't represent this though because he's had to battle a faster Red Bull as well as resurgant Ferrari and McLaren.

Close points differences simply means both drivers did well when their cars were able to and they had the opporunity, for example, both Toyota drivers scored well wherever the Toyota was strong. But in every race it doesn't entirely show their performance against each other.

Nakajima has been very disappointing this year with only 1 or 2 occasions where he was in for points but let down because of other factors out of his control.
He has the speed but no consistencey. I expect him out of the seat next year unless Frank decides he still needs those cheaper/free Toyota engines (which are behind on power it seems).

I think both Naka and Kovy should get F1 seats next year, but not at their respective current teams. They aren't good enough.

 

[Tobias123]

On the whole Kovalainen-Hamilton thing. Hamilton only has 7 points more than his teammate, yet Nakajima on the other hand has scored 0 points so far; 30.5 points less than his teammate, Rosberg. 30.5.

I think most people agree that Nakajima is useless and needs to be fired though. Kovy at least shows some promise occasionally and is a pretty good qualifier.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Points differences mean very little this season really, because the order of the teams changes from race to race and its difficult for teammates to beat each other each race while scoring points as well.

Not really. Since it's the team's wish to finish both of its cars as high as possible, every driver should have the same chances of scoring point every weekend. It's not as if Williams don't want Nakajima to score, he just doesn't manage. And with such a consistent car as the Williams, this remains a mystery to me. With great performace comes great results, as this really shows in Williams' case. Incase of the Brawns, Button was just far more consistent and on top of his game in the first races. He seemed to have restored this kind of pace after several races of anonymous results. Rubens had quite the opposite start to the season, but he really came alive at Valencia, which has to be Rubens' turning point this season.

Although I agree Mclaren isn't the best team for Kovalainen to drive at seeing the car has so much potential, he is only 7 points behind Hamilton, so for the moment I don't blame Kovalainen for anything. But people seem to write him off as a far worse driver than that, while he has been quite a consistent point scorer lately.

 

[Ardius]

I meant at a weekend where the car might be strong on that paricular track and weather combo, its harder this season to make the most of it because the level of compeititon is so high.
I wasn't talking about "team orders" I was talking about the ranking of teams, from circuit to circuit the performance isn't consistent (best example - Force India).
Teammates don't just need to beat each other like Ferrari 2004. They have to beat everyone else too. Nakajima doesn't qualify a well as Rosberg usually and has to battle past more people more often.

A better way to analyse performances is by doing qualifying and race finish comparisons. Not just points differences.

 

[GTP_rpm]

Normally I would agree with you, rpm, but on this occasion I don't.

Why would the mechanics be annoyed at him for this? He's the world champion, he became world champion through driving like he did yesterday, yes it means its more likely to make mistakes and lose points but at the end of the day thats how you win.
But more importantly, it makes him such an exciting driver to watch. Would we rather have a field of Kovalinen's who drop through the field like a stone?

Whether or not Lewis could have caught Button is largely irrelevant. There is an interesting case in point going on here.
Kovalainen could have secured a victory here but failed to show the initiative to obtain it. Lewis had little chance of victory but showed the willingness to try anyway. Which would you consider a good racing driver? Which is currently world champion? Which is the only one to win in the 2009 McLaren? Which was the one who crashed out of most of the early races when it was important to obtain data because of the lack of testing?

I explained why the mechanics would be annoyed at him. It won't change their overall perception of him, neither has it mine. We know he's definately in the top 5 racing drivers currently in F1 but his strength is also his weakness. The mechanics might be doing their dream job, but when you've put your heart and soul into it and are starting to see the success of a 3rd place...and some hard-earned bonus, it'd be a right kick in the nuts! No one is suggesting he doesn't try and catch Button, but a driver should be able to know how hard to push.

He over-drives, simple as that. Many claim he has fantastic car control, but I compare him very much to Takuma Sato. They both see going forwards as the only option...they push the boundaries and do make very elementary mistakes. But that fighter in them, as you say - IS exciting to watch. But is that what car control is? To lose control of the car that often? Someone like Button, who doesn't look ''exciting'' just has a different driving style where he isn't losing time by locking his brakes and getting sideways, ruining his tyres with every move.

But a field full of Sato's and Hamiltons, would be chaotic...You need the Kovalinens and the Buttons, to give a good balance to the sport.

I'm dissapointed by Kovi. I saw him through the karting years and he was as good as Kimi, without a doubt. I'd be interested to see the roles swapped at McLaren where Kovi was given the light, attacking car and Lewis was told to make his tyres last for 30 laps. It won't happen.

I apologise for my rant, anyway. I was still very excited by it at the time as you can tell I'm not a fan boi of Hamilton, or any driver infact. I've got nothing against him as a driver, or racer...but as a media package, including his fan base it makes me want to chuck my fingers down my throat!

 

[yeti]

A better way to analyse performances is by doing qualifying and race finish comparisons. Not just points differences.

That doesn't always follow...

Say you have 2 cars - one has to change a gearbox - and thus starts from the pits... the other starts at 7th on the grid...

First corner pile up takes out the last 6 cars...

20 place man has now made up 6 places without doing anything more than driving round some debris... 7th place man hasn't gone anywhere.

C.

 

[Ardius]

That doesn't always follow...

Say you have 2 cars - one has to change a gearbox - and thus starts from the pits... the other starts at 7th on the grid...

First corner pile up takes out the last 6 cars...

20 place man has now made up 6 places without doing anything more than driving round some debris... 7th place man hasn't gone anywhere.

C.

First of all...are you trying to say that happens every race? We are comparing season long stats here, of course there will be anomalies.
Secondly, well obviously you don't base it just on the stats....you do take things into consideration like that.
But generally speaking you can judge how good a driver was by his stats, but not solely on it.

Which is why I'm arguing that you can't just compare Nakajima's performance by his points. To gain points you have to finish 8th or greater. And in a field this competitive, thats quite difficult.
However, I do agree that he is massively out paced by Rosberg and doesn't deserve the Williams drive as much as Kovy doesn't deserve the McLaren seat anymore.

 

[Bram Turismo]

To gain points you have to finish 8th or greater. And in a field this competitive, thats quite difficult.
However, I do agree that he is massively out paced by Rosberg and doesn't deserve the Williams drive as much as Kovy doesn't deserve the McLaren seat anymore.

Exactly, performance can be reflected by viewing his scored points more than you'd think. Rosberg scored 30 points, Nakajima 0. You can hardly say Nakajima is even close to the speed of Rosberg judging by this comparison. I was happy to see both of the Williams at the top in Australia, but the Williams car just has failed my expectations. But to speak about the expectations of Nakajima... I expected him to at least keep up with Rosberg a little bit, but this is just not enough. Even of the field is competitive, Rosberg managed to score points nearly every race, if Nakajima eve had the slightest bit of speed Rosberg had, I'm more than sure both Williams drivers would've scored points. I it wasn't for Nakajima, Williams would've been in the fight for 4th. Now Rosberg has to do a two-man job al by himself. Switch Rosberg and Kovalainen, then we're talking.

 

[Ardius]

I'm not so sure Kovy would fit at Williams. They really need drivers like Rosberg at the moment to move forward, I think the best line up would be Hulkenburg and Heidfeld if Rosberg goes elsewhere.
Kubica would be good too, but I don't know if he'd want to be there.