2009 Italian Grand Prix

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niky
If you're not in it to win it, you're not racing.

LH could have sat back and preserved the podium, but:

1. He's not in the championship race, anyway.

and

2. He felt he actually had a chance of catching Button... so he was still in "push" mode at the time.

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If LH were actually a contender this year, he may have backed off to preserve the place, but he was on a scorcher of a run, reeling off fast lap after fast lap.

If anything, I admire his guts and determination. And the spectacle of that hard push will sit in your head longer than the "safe" drive of Jenson to second on the podium.
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Well said. I think he was planning on Jenson getting held up by the traffic so wanted to be as close as possible (especially if he still had some kers going into the final couple of corners).

I'm still not sure why he dropped, it certainly caught him (and Brundle) by surprise. It didn't look like he took more curb than normal.

Good race overall, it was interesting to see how the 2 different strategies mixed up the race. Loved the Toyotas going at each other as well 👍
 
I can just echo what niky said. It's so true. I mean, better push (He has nothing to lose) than stay in third place when knowing you actually can get to 2nd place. At the same time, though, I've to say that he's earning money for his points and those 6 points were just thrown away with that stupid mistake. But such things happen and I don't see any reason why think he did a mistake with trying to push in order to overtake Button.

The race itself was interesting and entertaining, especially when Räikkönen and Sutil pitted at the same time, while both of them having problems in the pit lane. 👍
 
Shame about Sutil's pitlane mistake - turned out to be a missed podium...

I think it proves that he can actually drive a race at full pace too... well done to the lad.

C.

PS - regarding KERS - I think it's a big shame that they canned it for next year... what would've been interesting is if they relaxed the limits on it... then you would have 3 areas of development... a) Harvesting, b) Capacity & c) Output... and the teams would have to draw a balance (possibly changeable depending on which circuit) on whether they want a higher capacity but more weight (more batteries) - higher power but more weight (bigger motor)... Also - I think that this equipment on a road car would be amazing you could have a very economical car that at the touch of a button that has an extra 80HP when needed?
 
daan
If they had went for 1 stop, they would have needed more fuel, which they have to carry through Q3, so they wouldn't have been in the top 3 on the grid. 💡

2 stops is marginally quicker, but you need to do 53 qual laps, and to not get held up by others on a 1 stop.
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2 stop is a bad idea at Monza. As someone previously said, on tracks like these, its best to be out as long as possible. And I'm pretty sure the KERS cars would have been quicker anyway.
 
Until he stacked it, it seemed to be working for Hamilton. And Raikkonen and Sutil for that matter. They were only beaten by the championship-leading car.

As daan says, the 2-stopper is the theoretical best strategy - even moreso if you have an ideal tyre and a less ideal one (so you can run a shorter stint on the less ideal tyre and spend most of the race on the ideal one). Plus you're always running lighter and lighter is faster.
 
Famine

As daan says, the 2-stopper is the theoretical best strategy - even moreso if you have an ideal tyre and a less ideal one (so you can run a shorter stint on the less ideal tyre and spend most of the race on the ideal one). Plus you're always running lighter and lighter is faster.
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Theoretically a 3-stop strategy would be the best for some tracks (not Monza obviously), but as we saw earlier this season the theory didn't work out. On the other hand, I don't see McLaren possibly doing any better than what it did today (at least up until the last lap).

Anyway, I was thinking about the following subject: Barrichello as usual had an amazing start and overtook Kovalainen, and later as Kovalainen was fighting to get his place back, Button was able to overtake him. Later on, when Hamilton did his second stop, he came back approximately 3 seconds behind Button. Well, imagine Barrichello hadn't overtaken Kovalainen right at the start. Chances are he and Button would've done later, but I wonder whether the loss of time for Button would be critical later on against Hamilton. In other words, I believe Button has to thank Barrichello for him being ahead of Hamilton and ultimately for his second place on the race.
 
well good race and i really didnt expect barichello to be the winner here at the start of the race but congrats to him. seems all the drivers where able to pull more laps out of there first stint then predicted by everyone. but i think with this win its going to get really interesting to see how the drivers start interacting with each other in the brawn team. based on how things go at Singapore we will see if both red bulls are out of the fight or not and if barichello will be able to take more points out of buttons lead. id love to see vettle win the championship but i just dont see it happening anymore so that just leaves me hoping for barichello.
 
McLaren must have been really ticked off when Lewis crashed on the final lap, and I reckon Sutil would have passed Raikkonen if the safety car didn't come out, Sutil was right behind Kimi.
 
What am amateur mistake by Hamilton. I know I've been a harsh critic since day one, but this time it's certainly justified. Realistically, he had one shot at getting Button, and that was down into the Parabolica. But he still had to catch up more than a second between the Lesmos and the Parabolica, and I doubt KERS would have been able to do that, even with a full battery. Yet he still pushed far too hard and paid the penalty for it. And with it, he killed his hopes of a title defence. He should have conslidated, banked the six points and kept his title dream alive for just that little bit longer. Any other driver would have done the same, but Hamilton had been doing that all weekend, from his last-minute dash for pole that saw him snatch it out from under Sutil's nose, but compromising his strategy at the same time.
 
yeti
Shame about Sutil's pitlane mistake - turned out to be a missed podium...

I think it proves that he can actually drive a race at full pace too... well done to the lad.

C.

PS - regarding KERS - I think it's a big shame that they canned it for next year... what would've been interesting is if they relaxed the limits on it... then you would have 3 areas of development... a) Harvesting, b) Capacity & c) Output... and the teams would have to draw a balance (possibly changeable depending on which circuit) on whether they want a higher capacity but more weight (more batteries) - higher power but more weight (bigger motor)... Also - I think that this equipment on a road car would be amazing you could have a very economical car that at the touch of a button that has an extra 80HP when needed?
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It would also be nice to have a motor that can rev to 18,000 rpm and have a powerband more elastic than Stretch Armstrong. Either advancement would add to the cost of your car. Active energy recovery (not the race version, but a cheaper road version) with hydraulic storage or an ultra-capacitor would probably add about $5k or more to the bottom line... though some manufacturers (Lotus, I think) are trying to develop the hydraulic version for road vehicles.

interludes
What am amateur mistake by Hamilton. I know I've been a harsh critic since day one, but this time it's certainly justified. Realistically, he had one shot at getting Button, and that was down into the Parabolica. But he still had to catch up more than a second between the Lesmos and the Parabolica, and I doubt KERS would have been able to do that, even with a full battery. Yet he still pushed far too hard and paid the penalty for it. And with it, he killed his hopes of a title defence. He should have conslidated, banked the six points and kept his title dream alive for just that little bit longer. Any other driver would have done the same, but Hamilton had been doing that all weekend, from his last-minute dash for pole that saw him snatch it out from under Sutil's nose, but compromising his strategy at the same time.
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The strategy would always work best from the front. You could say he might have gotten around Sutil on the start... then he might not. Being first with a cautious Kimi tucked up behind you is a good way to stay out of first corner carnage (mindful of what happened to him a few weeks ago)... of course, unluckily for LH and luckily for everyone else, the first corner of this race was an absolutely marvelous display of gentleman-like driving. :lol:

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Personally, I prefer this amateur mistake to his amateur mistake of almost driving too timidly in the last race of the championship last year.

Realistically, his title defense hopes are dead. Why chase math when you can chase glory? With the terrible performance of the Maccas in the middle of the season and the stench of lie-gate still hanging around, LH must feel that he needs to prove himself.

Besides... he'd been riding the curbs all day long... it's something McLaren had programmed into their race set-up... giving the car enough resiliency to bounce off the curbs, allowing them to use more of the track. He was just taking the same line he'd been taking every other lap, and this time it bit him.
 
It doesn't change the fact that six points is better than no points.

And chasing glory is all well and good, but there comes a time when you have to recognise that you're not going to catch it in time, much less pass it.
 
Hamilton took a risk, to attempt to try and pass Button, so he could get more points. He took the risk, and had to suffer the consequences. F1 is all about taking risks. Once you get in one of those things, you are taking a risk.
 
what title defense or championship hope does/did Hamilton have. even if ha banked those 6 points it wouldnt have made a difference one bit in the long run. seeing as he hasnt been in the race for WDC all year now the only thing he has to go for is race wins. hes got nothing to lose at this point he should be going all out. he dosnt have to race cautiously to save his points like button does or as he had to do in the past few years. and i would not call spinning on a curb like he did an amateur mistake either more of just bad luck. amateur mistakes hes shown are running into the back of kimi on pit road at a red light like he did last year. id actually have to say its good to see Hamilton has moved out of his old rookie mistakes. and no im not a Hamilton fan boy quite contrary im a kimi fanboy but ill admit Hamilton has shown he is a good driver now that hes not making the dumb mistakes like in the past 2 years.
 
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interludes
It doesn't change the fact that six points is better than no points.

And chasing glory is all well and good, but there comes a time when you have to recognise that you're not going to catch it in time, much less pass it.
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Ah... but it made the race all the more exciting because of it, right? :lol: What's six points, more or less... psssht... :dopey:
 
SUPER NUMBBER
Boy, I'd hate to have YOU as a driver on my team...
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I have a sneaking suspicion he'd be faster than Alguesuari, though... :lol:
 
SUPER NUMBBER
Boy, I'd hate to have YOU as a driver on my team...
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Why, 'cause I use my head?

I've since found out that Hamilton needed to win and Button had to finish no higher than fifth if Hamilton wanted to stand a chance of defending his title. But that doesn't change the fact that he was pushing far too hard. The only way he was going to catch Button was if Button made a mistake, and as we've seen from the first few races this year, Button doesn't make mistakes when he's onto something good. Can anyone recall Button missing so much as an apex all weekend?

Hamilton had to reel in a second in half a lap of Monza, and he knew it. He might be good, but I doubt even Schumacher or Senna could have pulled it off. Catching Button was one thing, getting past was another. There was only one place Hamilton could reasonably do it under braking for the Parabolica. I'm a bit bemused that some of you seem to be taking the line that Hamilton did better in crashing than he would have in getting a podium. The way I remember it, drivers are generally frowned-upon for crashing. Unless you're Nelson Piquet.

Which brings me to my next segue: Martin Whitmarsh clearly told Hamilton to spin and crash out so that Kovalainen could get an extra championship point.
 
interludes
And with it, he killed his hopes of a title defence. He should have conslidated, banked the six points and kept his title dream alive for just that little bit longer.
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Had he finished third, he would've had 33 points. Button is on 80 points. There are 40 points left on offer. Do the maths. So why not go for it anyway?

Edit: You worked it out. And yes, 6 points is better than none, but from an F1 fan's point of view, seeing a driver risk everything to possibly get that little bit more injected a bit of excitment into what would otherwise be just counting down the laps. Unless your favourite driver is Nick Heidfeld.
 
Roo
Edit: You worked it out. And yes, 6 points is better than none, but from an F1 fan's point of view, seeing a driver risk everything to possibly get that little bit more injected a bit of excitment into what would otherwise be just counting down the laps. Unless your favourite driver is Nick Heidfeld.
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I don't remember people being this supportive of Kimi when he crashed out while trying to chase Lewis during the last laps of Spa last year.

The fact is that there was no realistic chance of Hamilton catching Jenson, McLaren are fighting Ferrari for 3rd in the constructors championship and this mistake made that fight a lot harder than it should've been.

I also find it funny how people are criticizing Kovalainen based on his performance compared to Hamilton, one got 3 points and the other got embarassed. Hamilton was good for the first 52 laps, but you have to finish the race.
 
mipuumal
I don't remember people being this supportive of Kimi when he crashed out while trying to chase Lewis during the last laps of Spa last year.
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Well, Kimi just didn't have the motivation, the championship attitude, the skills... :rolleyes:

👎
 
PJ-FFL
2 stop is a bad idea at Monza. As someone previously said, on tracks like these, its best to be out as long as possible.
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Not a bad idea as 2 stops is marginally quicker than 1 stop, on paper at least, and I did give a proviso about that on my previous post.

Actually..
2008 - Vettel - 2 stops
2007 - Alonso - 2 stops
2006 - Schumacher - 2 stops
2005 - Montoya - 2 stops
2004 - Barrichello - 3 stops

Yeah, seems like 1 stop is the way to go at Monza...
 
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mipuumal
I don't remember people being this supportive of Kimi when he crashed out while trying to chase Lewis during the last laps of Spa last year.
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Spa 08 = changing conditions, complete mayhem, anything could happen, Kimi had been leading all race, passed on track for position, for 1st place, Kimi caught out by wet track on dry tyres.

Monza 09 = Bone dry. 3rd place, a good result, in the bag. Unnecessary pushing and a huge gamble to try and gain 2 more points for a championship already lost. He scored 0 instead. Lewis pushes too hard. Wall.
 
1 stop is the way to go at Monza in the particular circumstances Brawn faced: No KERS, fast car even when heavy.

No point in getting pole or even 1st row, as we learned yesterday, losing 0.9 per lap (to the fastest of the "lighter" cars) was the target and if that target was met they would win.
 
interludes
Hamilton had to reel in a second in half a lap of Monza, and he knew it. He might be good, but I doubt even Schumacher or Senna could have pulled it off. Catching Button was one thing, getting past was another. There was only one place Hamilton could reasonably do it under braking for the Parabolica. I'm a bit bemused that some of you seem to be taking the line that Hamilton did better in crashing than he would have in getting a podium. The way I remember it, drivers are generally frowned-upon for crashing. Unless you're Nelson Piquet.
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There was traffic ahead. If Button had been slowed down by it and Hamilton was close enough, he could have had a go at him.

If instead, like most people on here apparently, he decided to go out for a sunday drive and take a 3rd place, he wouldn't have been close enough.

...Nor would he have been a racing driver.
 
I don't think Hamilton had a hope in Haites, of getting 2nd. Button did have a couple cars to pass on the last lap, but were they going to dematreialize for Hamilton ...Noooo
Fastest lap is a stat with no real importance, in F1 .... Indy America North America yes-F1 Rest of the world no.
That being said, I think every driver, worth half his weight, is striving for this.
 
mipuumal
I don't remember people being this supportive of Kimi when he crashed out while trying to chase Lewis during the last laps of Spa last year.

The fact is that there was no realistic chance of Hamilton catching Jenson, McLaren are fighting Ferrari for 3rd in the constructors championship and this mistake made that fight a lot harder than it should've been.

I also find it funny how people are criticizing Kovalainen based on his performance compared to Hamilton, one got 3 points and the other got embarassed. Hamilton was good for the first 52 laps, but you have to finish the race.
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When you're McLaren, and the championships are already lost, victory is all that matters. Kovalainen might as well have not been there. Yes, Lewis threw it at the wall, but he's the one who's showing that a McLaren is capable of winning races, Heikki looks really slow all of the time.

Kimi needs a haircut.
 
GilesGuthrie
Kimi needs a haircut.
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:lol: He is starting to look alot like Rosberg.. But hey, if growing his hair is reason for four straight podiums, so be it!
 
As much as I hate to say it, Vettel and Webber should give up on their championship hopes since they both need to finish 2nd or better in order to win, and that's with the Brawns scoring 3 points at the most. It isn't gonna happen.
 
mipuumal
I also find it funny how people are criticizing Kovalainen based on his performance compared to Hamilton, one got 3 points and the other got embarassed. Hamilton was good for the first 52 laps, but you have to finish the race.
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Because of course the end result matters more than the overall performance? Do you really want an F1 with drivers who sit around on the last lap doing nothing? This is good for us!
 
As McLaren can't win either championship, nothing matters for them other than wins. They would at least like their drivers to try for the win rather than cruise round to a completely "pointless" lucky 3 points. So they might beat Ferrari to 3rd place in the constructors championship. Big deal. As I'm sure Ron would say, 3rd place isn't even first loser...
 
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