2009 Japanese Grand Prix

[Ardius]

People are saying, this track doesn't suit BGP, and the fast tracks didn't suit the Red Bull. Sure a track can lend itself to a particular type of aero, but to be on the blunt end and the pointy end, the points for these two teams, seems extreme.
Toyota and Force India are even more extreme, with their performances.

Yet Lewis and Kimi are able to bring the car to the party every week, at least this end of the season. Even though they got left at the gate a little early this season it seems they have come up with a much more consistant package than the the two title contenders. KERS development may have hindered the aero package design development for these teams, but the result is they aren't hitting and missing.

Anyway just an obserevation.

Of course, KERS also gives a horsepower boost, making any aero disadvantage neligable for McLaren and Ferrari. Its easy to say now that they suit all types of tracks, but earlier in the season when they hadn't sorted their cars out around KERS, they were struggling.

All teams are stronger at certain types of tracks, some are more consistent than others, but it helps when you have KERS to get over your problems.
When Hamilton's KERS stopped working, he was struggling a lot.

I don't think the difference between the drivers skills is all that much, seeing as the practice times were 1.2 seconds between the lot of them.

Also, when Brawn "struggle" they have scored points in every race, if thats not consistent, what is?

 

[crooky369]

Not Button overtaking Kubica superbly earlier on? Sutil and Kovy battling? Trulli and Hamilton trading fastest laps? The difference between Button and Barrichello during the race (which was closing all the time). Kovalainen blasting past Fisichella on the pit exit?

Define top drivers too. The only "bad" drivers are Nakajima and the rookies. I'm also glad we've got rid of the boring old McLaren vs Ferrari domination.

Ok Button's move on Kubica looked good and its a shame we didn't get to see it in real time or onboard. The Trulli and Hamilton battle was f1 at its most boring they were no where near each other on the track it was just bad luck on Hamilton's part coming out of the pits otherwise Trulli would have never have got past Hamilton.

Kovalainen was as poor as ever getting tangled up with Sutil when he really should have backed off and I thought that pitlane move was pretty stupid as well he was so lucky he didn't cause an accident again but he's got nothing to lose because he'll be in a slow team next year.

Regarding Button and Barrichello I would have preferred Barrichello further up the field getting some more points.

Right for me top drivers are drivers that can consistently lap at a quick pace and they should normally be better than their teammates.

This is my top list of drivers.

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Massa
4. Raikkonen
5. Button
6. Vettel
7. Kubica
8. Barrichello
9. Rosberg
10. Webber

 

[mazdaman]

Did lewis hamilton win?

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Did lewis hamilton win?

no vettle won. was that a serious question or did i miss something in earlier posts?

 

[SagarisGTB]

Also, don't forget that we've seen a huge variety of teams in the top 8. On the podium we've seen Brawn, RBR, Renault, Toyota, Mclaren, Ferrari, Force India, and Williams. All but one team has stood on the podium this year, which I find very impressive. The fact that all the cars respond so differently to each track makes all up for much closer racing in the top 8 than in years before.

I dont think Williams have been on the podium, yet.

Am I the only one who was on the edge of my seat most of that race? It was hardly an uneventful stroll to the finish for anyone.

Agree, good race.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I enjoy any race at Suzuka. It's such a great track.

 

[mazdaman]

no vettle won. was that a serious question or did i miss something in earlier posts?

That was serious cause i didnt watch the race nor was i lookking at posts.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

That was serious cause i didnt watch the race nor was i lookking at posts.

ok it just seemed like an odd question. but yea vettle won and he ran away from the race from the start. hamilton was battling with trulli for 2nd and he couldnt keep the position and ended up 3rd.

 

[zed300]

Of course, KERS also gives a horsepower boost, making any aero disadvantage neligable for McLaren and Ferrari. Its easy to say now that they suit all types of tracks, but earlier in the season when they hadn't sorted their cars out around KERS, they were struggling.

They were struggling because the aero package wasn't good enough, to work with KERS. Not because the KERS wasn't working well enough to over ride any aero defects.

All teams are stronger at certain types of tracks, some are more consistent than others, but it helps when you have KERS to get over your problems.

KERS isn't going to eliminate any aero problems, a lap consists mostly of being able to get the car to turn in, the lower the speed of turn in the, the slower the apex speed the later you get on the power. The shorter the distance between corners the less the KERS has any effect. Therefore aero is much more relevant than KERS.

When Hamilton's KERS stopped working, he was struggling a lot.

Lewis's KERS problems didn't have him drop off the pace by more than a third of a second. It's not like he was falling back into Kimi's clutches. So his aero package still works.

I don't think the difference between the drivers skills is all that much, seeing as the practice times were 1.2 seconds between the lot of them.

If there wasn't much of a difference between drivers, then it wouldn't be too hard to find one that can drive the Ferrari, would it.

Also, when Brawn "struggle" they have scored points in every race, if that's not consistent, what is?

They've had a bit of luck to allow them to score points. I would say 3/4-1 second a lap slower is struggling.
China, Silverstone, these races they were lucky every other team was off the pace too. Hungary they were beaten by 5 teams, and still Button picked up 2 points, but as you say they manage to pick up points even when they struggle.
Button has scored 24 points in the last 8 races, same as Webber and he hasn't scored in the last 5 races. Points are points, but I wouldn't call Webber's effort consistent. So does consistancy mean anything anyway.

 

[darkfinal]

 

[orimarc]

Awww...now that's sportmanship.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Lewis's KERS problems didn't have him drop off the pace by more than a third of a second. It's not like he was falling back into Kimi's clutches. So his aero package still works.

Lewis lost his pace not directly due to his KERS problems, but indirectly. The problem with KERS is that once it fails, the whole car package fails. The car is being set-up with a KERS that works perfectly. Incase it fails during the race, the whole set-up of the car is no longer 100% suitable for the track. The whole balance of the car changes, which results in a car that behaves totally different than the car when it had KERS working.

 

[zed300]

I don't understand how an electrical fault, can change the grip level.
The KERS unit is not magneticlly attached....is it??

 

[daan]

I love the cars in the driver's parade. Who was the guy driving round by himself? Was it Glock's driver?

Lewis lost his pace not directly due to his KERS problems, but indirectly. The problem with KERS is that once it fails, the whole car package fails. The car is being set-up with a KERS that works perfectly. Incase it fails during the race, the whole set-up of the car is no longer 100% suitable for the track. The whole balance of the car changes, which results in a car that behaves totally different than the car when it had KERS working.

Not exactly. The KERS adds weight (car might not be much heavier, but certainly gives a higher centre of gravity), but gives back an extra burst of power. When it's not functioning, it doesn't give any extra power, but obviously still has the weight penalty.

So, a car with (functioning) KERS will be good under acceleration, but will be handicapped when braking and will lose out to a non-KERS car when there are quick changes of direction required (such as Suzuka's esses. Watch onboard from Lewis how quickly Vettel disappears through the esses on lap 1).

A KERS enabled car with a non-functioning KERS unit will still have the handicaps of the braking and changes of direction, but it also won't have the quick acceleration.

The aero balance of the car will be the same whether the KERS unit is functioning or not.

 

[Bram Turismo]

The aero balance of the car will be the same whether the KERS unit is functioning or not.

Hey, I'm only saying what Lewis was saying after the Japanese GP

 

[mipuumal]

It's not a question of aero balance, but braking stability.

When the KERS is functioning and collecting energy, the car behaves a certain way under braking.

When the KERS is not functioning and not collecting energy, the car behaves differently under braking.

 

[daan]

Hey, I'm only saying what Lewis was saying after the Japanese GP

Pah! What does he know...

It's not a question of aero balance, but braking stability.

When the KERS is functioning and collecting energy, the car behaves a certain way under braking.

When the KERS is not functioning and not collecting energy, the car behaves differently under braking.

Aaaah, of course. I forgot how it actually collected the energy. 💡


Is the 💡 smiley KERS enabled?

 

[Bram Turismo]

Should've been more clear on my part with the KERS bit as I was never talking about aero balance. Thanks mipuumal 👍

 

[yeti]

The disadvantage isn't total weight - as that's (approx) the same for all cars KERS or not - it's placement of weight...

I.e. a car without KERS can place it's ballast in better places - such as at the front low down... a car with KERS can only have the weight in the central area where the KERS batteries (or fly wheel) is...

This is what makes the disadvantage... so for heavier drivers (like Kubica over Heidfeld) they couldn't use KERS because they would've been carrying extra weight over the minimum (which is something you don't want to do (obviously))

C.

 

[Ardius]

Ok Button's move on Kubica looked good and its a shame we didn't get to see it in real time or onboard. The Trulli and Hamilton battle was f1 at its most boring they were no where near each other on the track it was just bad luck on Hamilton's part coming out of the pits otherwise Trulli would have never have got past Hamilton.

Kovalainen was as poor as ever getting tangled up with Sutil when he really should have backed off and I thought that pitlane move was pretty stupid as well he was so lucky he didn't cause an accident again but he's got nothing to lose because he'll be in a slow team next year.

Regarding Button and Barrichello I would have preferred Barrichello further up the field getting some more points.

Right for me top drivers are drivers that can consistently lap at a quick pace and they should normally be better than their teammates.

This is my top list of drivers.

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Massa
4. Raikkonen
5. Button
6. Vettel
7. Kubica
8. Barrichello
9. Rosberg
10. Webber

So, you accept these things happened and have an opinion, so how was it a boring race?
Fine if you don't enjoy seeing drivers trade fastest laptimes and fight under strategy, but there was plenty of action in this race.

And I see that 5 of your top drivers are in competitive cars this year, with one in a steadily improving Ferrari.

They were struggling because the aero package wasn't good enough, to work with KERS. Not because the KERS wasn't working well enough to over ride any aero defects.


KERS isn't going to eliminate any aero problems, a lap consists mostly of being able to get the car to turn in, the lower the speed of turn in the, the slower the apex speed the later you get on the power. The shorter the distance between corners the less the KERS has any effect. Therefore aero is much more relevant than KERS.

Lewis's KERS problems didn't have him drop off the pace by more than a third of a second. It's not like he was falling back into Kimi's clutches. So his aero package still works.


If there wasn't much of a difference between drivers, then it wouldn't be too hard to find one that can drive the Ferrari, would it.



They've had a bit of luck to allow them to score points. I would say 3/4-1 second a lap slower is struggling.
China, Silverstone, these races they were lucky every other team was off the pace too. Hungary they were beaten by 5 teams, and still Button picked up 2 points, but as you say they manage to pick up points even when they struggle.
Button has scored 24 points in the last 8 races, same as Webber and he hasn't scored in the last 5 races. Points are points, but I wouldn't call Webber's effort consistent. So does consistancy mean anything anyway.

My point is that a KERS car can save itself a little from mistakes by using a bit of the boost. Say a driver just misses his braking a little and just misses an apex, he can use some of his KERS boost to make the mistake a little less damaging on laptime.
The amount of energy per lap stays the same of course and it will hurt him a little elsewhere where he might have used it for greatest effect but it does affect the balance of mistakes against laptime. At least in my opinion.

I disagree with the idea you're trying to suggest that Lewis' skill is making up for his cars failings and that the Brawns and Red Bulls are making mistakes as an explanation for the yo-yo effect with everyone except McLaren at the present moment.
With only a few tenths of a second in it, it is easy for minor differences in aero design, setup and the advantage/disadvantage of KERS to make go from zero to hero. Force India is a point in case. McLaren's ability to consistently be at the top end I put down to the KERS principally - especially because of the massive advantage at the starts of races and also that perhaps McLaren designed a car that overall has good aero design for all tracks but were unable to successfully work it alongside the KERS ballast earlier in the season. Now that they have found a way in their setups and aero to counter it.

Many people seem to forget these are the best drivers in the world, they are in 10 different cars and are still within 1 and a bit seconds of each other. Lewis only does not make up the 0.4 seconds (or whatever) over Brawn or Red Bull, if we put all the drivers in the same car that was setup perfectly for their driving style, they would easily be as close if not more than that.
But there are too many variables to just put it all down to driver or machine. So I disagree with those that say Button wins without skill and I disagree with those that think driver skill doesn't matter. Both driver and machine are what win the championship and there are only a couple of drivers champions who didn't win in the best (or at least 2nd best) car on the grid that year.

 

[The Outlaw]

The only reason it wasn't a boring race in MOST peoples eyes is because it was at Suzuka (which is an exciting track to watch the cars circulate)...go to say, Valencia or Singapore and people would be complaining all day about how much of yawn fest it was, even though Suzuka was just about as boring in terms of overtakes

The FIA and the OWG really need to take a look at banning the DD diffuser and in particular putting massive restriction on the design of the underfloor and diffusers. Until they restrict the diffuser design to a much more simple and less turbulent design there won't be much passing in F1 unfortunately. Too bad they have to be so ignorant

My point is that a KERS car can save itself a little from mistakes by using a bit of the boost. Say a driver just misses his braking a little and just misses an apex, he can use some of his KERS boost to make the mistake a little less damaging on laptime.
The amount of energy per lap stays the same of course and it will hurt him a little elsewhere where he might have used it for greatest effect but it does affect the balance of mistakes against laptime. At least in my opinion.

I would have to disagree with that statement. First of all, to achieve the optimal lap time the entire KERS energy storage must be used somewhere along the track of course...which you illuded to. Use the KERS elsewhere in a less than ideal spot to "recover from a mistake" and you're obviously going to do some damage to your laptime, as you're not going to be able to use the KERS in the part of the track where it is most effective...in order to achieve that optimal/competitive lap. So in the end I don't really see much of any advantage to KERS in such a situation. Of course in racing conditions the KERS can be quite beneficial to help defend your position though. Just my 2 cents 👍

 

[Ardius]

I enjoyed this years Singapore actually and I was also a seeming minority who enjoyed the British Grand Prix this year too.
After the years of complaining by many people about overtaking, I wonder why the same people are still watching F1? Its been a problem for a long, long time and in my opinion overtaking is only a small part of the appeal of motorsport.

The reason lap-long battles with lots of overtaking are so revered and praised is because they happen so little, and thats true for many racing series. F1 it happens even less because of the higher speeds and ironically, its because of the smaller and smaller difference between the teams. Thats not to say all the overtaking 20 years ago was down to massive performance differences, but it certainly must have played a part along with technologies that were still being developed (engines, aero, suspension, electronics, turbos, etc).

There is so much more to F1 than overtaking and its boring to see the same old argument thrown around. I of course want more overtaking but I can still enjoy the sport with a relative lack of it and seeing as F1 is still popular nowadays despite such complaints, I guess many others can to.

 

[The Outlaw]

I enjoyed this years Singapore actually and I was also a seeming minority who enjoyed the British Grand Prix this year too.
After the years of complaining by many people about overtaking, I wonder why the same people are still watching F1? Its been a problem for a long, long time and in my opinion overtaking is only a small part of the appeal of motorsport.

I'm suprised you enjoyed this years Singapore GP I remember you moaning about how boring it was last year, even though this years race was just about as boring

The reason lap-long battles with lots of overtaking are so revered and praised is because they happen so little, and thats true for many racing series. F1 it happens even less because of the higher speeds and ironically, its because of the smaller and smaller difference between the teams. Thats not to say all the overtaking 20 years ago was down to massive performance differences, but it certainly must have played a part along with technologies that were still being developed (engines, aero, suspension, electronics, turbos, etc).

F1 definitely has to be the series with the least amount of overtaking though. Watch Grand-AM or ALM's here in the states and you'll see what real racing and overtaking is about...but of course I enjoy other aspects of F1 to, like that of strategy, luck, getting the tires to work, etc...but not when that's really all it's about. The racing should be done ON the track, not in the pits and by strategy alone. When the drivers don't look like they are taking any risk and things play out quite accordingly depending on strategy and such, things aren't nearly as exciting as they could or should be IMO.

The biggest and most blatant reason there is such a lack of overtaking is because of the massive amounts of dirty air the car behind has to deal with. Yea all of the teams and drivers are quite close on raw pace, but fuel loads and tire choices help to create quite a nice spread in pace during the race...but despite the turbulent air they REALLY struggle to make a move, even if there is a 1-2 second descrepency in laps times. Simplifying the diffuser on the cars, decreasing braking distances, and creating a tire with more grip would be SIMPLE ways to promote much more overtaking than there is at the moment...and bring in much more fans, especially here in the states. But I don't see that happening anytime soon thanks to ignorance within the FIA and OWG.

There is so much more to F1 than overtaking and its boring to see the same old argument thrown around. I of course want more overtaking but I can still enjoy the sport with a relative lack of it and seeing as F1 is still popular nowadays despite such complaints, I guess many others can to.

I'll still be watching ...just throwing some ideas out there to make things better.

....

 

[Ardius]

Of course there are ways to improve it and I agree it should be improved in this aspect, but its getting pretty eye-roll worthy every race, every year, the same comments - I wonder why people keep coming back?

And yes I did complain about Singapore last year, but this year it was far, far better for attrition rates for a variety of reasons. Last year the excitement was falsified by a certain crash (which I noted at the time) with there being a relative lack of action anywhere other than that safety car.
This year we had a dustier track, a variety of incidents, problems with brake wear and once again a safety car (though it wasn't as huge an effect as last year thanks to the safety car rule changes).

 

[yeti]

Don't forget fuel-rig-gate last year that was hilarious watching the Ferrari mechanices run after the car!!!

C.

 

[The Outlaw]

Don't forget fuel-rig-gate last year that was hilarious watching the Ferrari mechanices run after the car!!!

C.

Or Raikkonen flying over the curbs and crashing with four laps to go...

 

[tibiquera]

On the overtaking matter, last season was so much better than this year's. But there's still hope for next year when refuelling will be prohibited.

 

[The Outlaw]

On the overtaking matter, last season was so much better than this year's. But there's still hope for next year when refuelling will be prohibited.

I agree, the ban on re-fueling will definitely force the drivers to take more risk..making things much more exciting for the fans in the end Imagine if Button was in his current situation next year, commonly qualifying outside the points or just in the points in the last few races, trying to hold onto his points lead as Vettel qualifies out front...Button would really be forced to take some risk to move up the order...which would definitely keep everyone on their tippy toes throughout the race. It would really be a case of "do or die", without relying so much on strategy and pit stops to work his way up. This is definitely one of the better rulings the FIA had made of recent IMO 👍

 

[Ardius]

Hmm, I'm of two minds about that. Brundle raised some good points, it may take away the excitement of strategy and just mean all the pit stops are earlier in the race, leaving the final laps to be less exciting because the result will be all but set in stone.
But on the other side, we may see more interest with tyre wear, though it hasn't really been much of a issue this year, we will see with more fuel and smaller fronts.

I doubt it will be the glorious return that some seem to expect and I will miss the 1-stop and 3 or even 4 stop surprsies. No more Schumacher-like races where he has to put in qualy laps to win, I thinkt they should have sorted out the overtaking before doing this really.

On the overtaking matter, last season was so much better than this year's. But there's still hope for next year when refuelling will be prohibited.

I don't really notice much difference. I bet when we have the season averages they will be close on number of overtakes.

 

[zed300]

I 'm pretty sure this would creat a lot of passing.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3449372&postcount=24