2010 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alex.
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This is some of the extent of awesomeness this day held. Just a little preview shot of myself.
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Big kerbs are big.
 
Not really arguing that he should or shouldn't have had a penalty (he most definitely did deserve one), more just how harsh the penalty is.

I'm not really sure of what sort of penalty you are suggesting? What else can they do during the race other than give him a drive through? Time added on after the race? A fine?

The penalty was harsh, but only in the sense that the timing was downright unlucky, if I am not mistaken, he was handed the penalty before the safety car was announced? Somehow, I can't see half as many people claiming it was harsh if the safety car had not come out and he only lost one or two places. This detail for me is of vital importance in this discussion, its not that the stewards where intentionally vindictive and cruel towards Alonso, its just the timing of the penalty was unlucky. To compound things for Alonso fans, Hamiltons penalty 2 weeks ago was lucky (in the sense he didn't loose any positions), although funnily enough they both served equally harsh penalties (drive through) according to the book.

The fact that Kubica's car broke, has absolutely no relevance to the stewards as far as I can tell. As Scaff pointed out, an illegal overtake doesn't become legal because a car breaks down later in the race. Again, Alonso was sodding unlucky that Kubica's car did break down as he couldn't return a place to a car that is now parked in the garage, as such the stewards had no choice but to penalise him.

So really, Alonso fans have every right to be upset, things really conspired against him this race with regard to luck, what didn't conspire against him was the stewards, they did everything by the book and to be honest, I don't think it was an unfair punishment. Afterall, Alonso should have given the place back straight away, he should have known this, Ferrari should have known this. Okay, they were asking the stewards if they should and unfortunately for them, Kubica's car died during that conversation. I don't even see why there was a conversation to be had though, Ferrari can argue he was forced off track, but he hadn't completed the overtake, he was no more than side-by-side, the only reason he ended up ahead by the end of that corner, was because he cut the corner, and that, is an advantage gained by going off-track which ever way you cut it.
 
I'm not really sure of what sort of penalty you are suggesting? What else can they do during the race other than give him a drive through? Time added on after the race? A fine?

A 5 second penalty perhaps? :dopey:

The penalty was harsh, but only in the sense that the timing was downright unlucky, if I am not mistaken, he was handed the penalty before the safety car was announced? Somehow, I can't see half as many people claiming it was harsh if the safety car had not come out and he only lost one or two places. This detail for me is of vital importance in this discussion, its not that the stewards where intentionally vindictive and cruel towards Alonso, its just the timing of the penalty was unlucky. To compound things for Alonso fans, Hamiltons penalty 2 weeks ago was lucky (in the sense he didn't loose any positions), although funnily enough they both served equally harsh penalties (drive through) according to the book.

I saw that penalty coming from a mile away. Ferrari got unlucky that the penalty came late. In this scenario, the longer it takes the worse the penalty. And Kubica was out of the race so that made it way worse. Overall, it was just a terrible strategy by Alonso and Ferrari.
 
I saw that penalty coming from a mile away. Ferrari got unlucky that the penalty came late. In this scenario, the longer it takes the worse the penalty. And Kubica was out of the race so that made it way worse. Overall, it was just a terrible strategy by Alonso and Ferrari.

Indeed, as did I and many other F1 spectators I would have thought, so really you have to point the finger at Ferrari and ask why didn't they see that coming?

Of course they did to an extent, which is why they where supposedly in talks with the stewards at the time, but they are loosing time while that conversation was happening, the best thing to have done would have immediately given back the place and then immediately try and re-take the place again, preferably on track next time round...Oh and when I say immediately, I don't mean the next corner, the stewards don't like that apparently. :boggled:
 
Regarding those penalties...

People seem to lose sight of the fact, since there are twenty or so racecars going round the same track, but a Formula 1 race is a timed event.

In other words... he who completes the race in the shortest time wins.

Now a position penalty, as Scaff points out... is stupid. It means that your penalty is either one second or one lap, depending on where the next guy is. And if that guy crashed out five laps ago... what then? Stop the car and wait five laps?

Time penalties are the only ones that make sense in F1. In a perfect race, each penalty would lose you a set number of points, as the cars lap at around the same time and with the same pace. But no race is perfect... and giving a guy who hasn't worked to keep his pace up with the cars in front of him an extra position up through a position penalty is patently unfair to everyone else on the field. If he's worked hard and is sitting right on the penalized driver's tail-bone... then he deserves that extra point.

I don't believe Alonso's penalty was as harsh as it could have been. They could have made him take it under the safety car... right before the safety car went in and everyone left him half a lap behind at race pace. Which is why he had to take it afterwards.

Either way, the penalty would have put him at the back of the pack...
 
I don't believe Alonso's penalty was as harsh as it could have been. They could have made him take it under the safety car... right before the safety car went in and everyone left him half a lap behind at race pace. Which is why he had to take it afterwords.

Either way, the penalty would have put him at the back of the pack...

Alonso served his drive thru penalty as soon as the safety car came in though. :odd: I believe he served the penalty then because 3 laps had passed since the penalty was issued, and if he had gone another lap under full course greens he would have been penalized further...although I'm not exactly sure if laps under caution count toward the "3 laps to serve your penalty" clause once the safety car comes in...can anyone clarify this?
 
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I actually don't know if they count... but I think if the caution had lasted longer, they would have made an exception for it.

Actually... they should have made the exception and allowed him to fill his quota of laps after the SC period. It would have been fair. But it's not in the rules, so sadly, they didn't.
 
SC laps do not count towards your three lap grace.
 
So it was just Alonso's bad luck that he'd done two laps before the SC? Ouch. :lol:
 
Regarding those penalties...

People seem to lose sight of the fact, since there are twenty or so racecars going round the same track, but a Formula 1 race is a timed event.

In other words... he who completes the race in the shortest time wins.

Now a position penalty, as Scaff points out... is stupid. It means that your penalty is either one second or one lap, depending on where the next guy is. And if that guy crashed out five laps ago... what then? Stop the car and wait five laps?

I was actually thinking more along the lines of speeding up the process of stewarding decisions, because every one knew as soon as Alonso did it, he deserved a penalty.
But again, I don't have suggestions how to do that, I just think its a problem that should be looked at.

And its not just a timed event. Track position means more than just finishing an arbitrary number of positions behind. Where you are in traffic it determines how fast you can go, if you get stuck behind slow(er) cars like Kubica for example, this can have a huge effect on your overall race.
But I never said a position penalty should be applied - I never suggested anything other than perhaps not even giving a penalty at all.

I'm merely pointing out that I think its wrong that penalties should alter due to race conditions, particularly when the driver can alter the severity of the penalty himself (like Rosberg putting in those laps at Singapore 2008). Its like saying "you did wrong, but its ok if you can race fast enough to get out of the penalty".
 
No problem... I was answering an argument I missed a few pages back, and wanted to give my opinion on the idea. ;)

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Unfortunately, races are naturally chaotic things... so you can't really control that a fair penalty may sometimes have an unfair result.

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Well... here's the thing... if you can race fast enough to alter the severity of the penalty, without the penalty, you'd have actually gained time on the guy in front of you or passed a few more cars for a gain in points.

Which means you have missed an opportunity to score higher or win the race.

Hamilton's penalty, from a points perspective, didn't seem to hurt him. in fact, he had a halfway decent chance of actually catching Vettel and pressuring him within the last ten laps or so. Whether he could have overtaken him or not is another matter... but that's still opportunity lost due to a penalty.

The fact that he didn't lose a place, either, is all Kobayashi's fault (not as if Kobayashi did anything wrong... he just didn't have the pace). Not his own.
 
True, but still, the driver in question has still gained more or less depending on when the penalty is applied and also with respect to what that driver is doing on the track.
Anyway, food for thought. I admit its extremely difficult to come up with a penalty system which would work fairly in all scenarios and is easily understandable for everyone.

If they simply gave the penalties out quicker though, this sort of thing would be minimised. I realise the stewards have a lot of data and points of view to look over and that they shouldn't rush a decision if it means not looking at all the evidence. But sometimes its pretty obvious like with Alonso, there was no question that he went off the track, gained an advantage and didn't give it back.
The stewards didn't need to see many more camera views or hear the team radio - it was there for all to see.
 
True, but still, the driver in question has still gained more or less depending on when the penalty is applied and also with respect to what that driver is doing on the track.
Anyway, food for thought. I admit its extremely difficult to come up with a penalty system which would work fairly in all scenarios and is easily understandable for everyone.

If they simply gave the penalties out quicker though, this sort of thing would be minimised. I realise the stewards have a lot of data and points of view to look over and that they shouldn't rush a decision if it means not looking at all the evidence. But sometimes its pretty obvious like with Alonso, there was no question that he went off the track, gained an advantage and didn't give it back.
The stewards didn't need to see many more camera views or hear the team radio - it was there for all to see.

I agree... quicker penalties would be ideal. 👍 Almost instant penalties would be the fairest of all. But I've just read something regarding this on f1blog:

http://www.formula1blog.com/2010/07/11/ferrari-tight-lipped-over-british-gp-penalty/
Negative Camber
With respect to Race Control and the FIA’s Charlie Whiting, making an immediate call must surely be difficult as making the wrong call could be catastrophic. A year ago, many complained about assessing a penalty that was postponed until he next race, i.e. a grid position penalty et. al. Now that Race Control is attempting to assess penalties and see them complied with during the race itself, many are looking for even quicker reactions. Is this realistic? Can Race Control be thorough and effective if teams expect an incident sussed and penalty assessed within a lap or two? I would imagine that is asking a lot of Whiting and his crew.

While some of the writing on that site isn't exactly the best... this particular paragraph struck me as a good reality check for all of us who complain about the stewarding. Pretty easy to play armchair general after the fact, or when watching from the sidelines, but we've got to remember: these guys are under pressure to watch everything that happens on the track... and they're under pressure not to make silly mistakes like they have in the past few years... so it's understandable that even if they see it happening right away from one camera angle, they'll take time to look at other footage and deliberate before issuing a penalty.
 
I was actually thinking more along the lines of speeding up the process of stewarding decisions, because every one knew as soon as Alonso did it, he deserved a penalty.
But again, I don't have suggestions how to do that, I just think its a problem that should be looked at.

And its not just a timed event. Track position means more than just finishing an arbitrary number of positions behind. Where you are in traffic it determines how fast you can go, if you get stuck behind slow(er) cars like Kubica for example, this can have a huge effect on your overall race.
But I never said a position penalty should be applied - I never suggested anything other than perhaps not even giving a penalty at all.

I'm merely pointing out that I think its wrong that penalties should alter due to race conditions, particularly when the driver can alter the severity of the penalty himself (like Rosberg putting in those laps at Singapore 2008). Its like saying "you did wrong, but its ok if you can race fast enough to get out of the penalty".

The problem is, the stewards seem to be consulting the teams. They were in talks with Renault and Ferrari, but the rules are in black and white, you overtake off the track, you give the place back or get a drive through penalty. Ferrari should have known this, they hoped that the Stewards would turn a blind eye as they argued 'Alonso was forced off the track' (Which I actually believe he was in a sense, but it wasn't unfair of Kubica to do so, thats what you get for overtaking on the outside). Because Ferrari tried to make their case, it forced the Stewards to take a closer look at the incident and consult both teams before issuing the punishment. What they should have done is told them to give the place back straight away, and had Ferrari not contested the protest from Renault/Kubica over the incident, then the penalty (To give the place back) would have come much sooner (i.e. while Kubica was still on-track) and Alonso would not have recieved a drive through.

The jist of what I just explained is, Ferrari let themselves get a drivethrough by first deciding not to give the place back and then trying to make a case for Alonso with the Stewards which delayed their decision. Which of course, one of the Ferrari guys then commented on after the race, saying delays in Steward decisions cost them again even though it was their fault the Stewards took so long.

But not only that, steward decisions look at the specific incident, and give the penalty irrespective of the track conditions at a time, so you could lose no places, or you could lose 20. The problem is when the penalty itself is disproportionate to the incident. But in this case I think, the Stewards got it dead right with Alonso. Just like they got it dead wrong with Schumacher at Monaco.

Well... here's the thing... if you can race fast enough to alter the severity of the penalty, without the penalty, you'd have actually gained time on the guy in front of you or passed a few more cars for a gain in points.

Which means you have missed an opportunity to score higher or win the race.

Hamilton's penalty, from a points perspective, didn't seem to hurt him. in fact, he had a halfway decent chance of actually catching Vettel and pressuring him within the last ten laps or so. Whether he could have overtaken him or not is another matter... but that's still opportunity lost due to a penalty.

The fact that he didn't lose a place, either, is all Kobayashi's fault (not as if Kobayashi did anything wrong... he just didn't have the pace). Not his own.

The thing with Kobayashi at Valencia is no different from Rosberg at Silverstone in my opinion. The pace of the Mclaren is way ahead of the rest of the pack (Bar the Red Bulls and possibly the Ferrari at this circuit). Jenson got stuck in traffic as usual (So he saved his tires and decided to jump pretty much everyone in the pit stops again - which he did), so only Lewis' pace was a true indication. The gap from Hamilton to Rosberg was much the same as the gap from Hamilton to Kobayashi. Kobayashi's pace was excellent in the last race, but not even the Mercedes of Rosberg can keep up with Hamilton in his Mclaren. I think only the Ferrari of Alonso or the Mclaren of Button has the pace to match Hamilton (Besides the Red Bulls) but they keep getting stuck in traffic from either poor qualifying or poor starts.

If Hamilton had a penalty here in the latter stages of the race, he would have stayed ahead of Rosberg too (Well, he had the same sort of gap, but I think the pitlane is longer, so it would have been close.

Again, Alonso was just unlucky that his penalty came at the same time as a safety car, which put him a lot further back than he would have been had there been no safety car (I think we can blame Sutil for that. Or was it Liuzzi? Whoever ran into the back of De La Rosa).
 
When the race began after lap 1 I basically was ready to go home. It was a complete disaster. Sat amongst thousands of fans who were all laughing at Vettel and Massa :irked: I'm glad I didn't though. It was a pleasure to see Seb and Felipe pushing 110% trying to catch up. At least one of my drivers managed points.

After the race I met up with GTP members Only In F1 and Ross Messinger, who had a plan to get into the paddock and meet some drivers. I got my ticket signed by Kobayashi, Chandhok and Rosberg + Shook hands with Murray Walker. Here's some pics:
Guests at the track included Cricketer Freddie Flintoff
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Boxer Amir Kahn
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and footballer Michael Essien
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Drivers:
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Personnel:

Rob Smedley
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Mike Gascoyne after Ross shouted 'I love you Mike'
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Adrian Newey
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He stopped to sign and I had a conversation with him about Webber, which I have previously posted about.
Chris Dyer
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An absolute hero: Stefano Domenicali. He made sure everyone had signings done and thanked the the people left afterward. What a guy.
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Murray Walker couldn't sign because he was still working but I put my hand out as he walked past and he gave me a handshake, something I'll never forget.
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Martin Whitmarsh, I warmly informed him his cars would be behind RBR AND Ferrari next tmie around.
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James Allen was very sociable, he put all his bags on the floor and stopped for a lengthy chat about the future of the sport.
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Last and probably least: BBC's Jonathan Legard. As he walked past I shouted in his accent "AND THERE'S LEGARD WINDING HIMSELF UP" :lol:
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Another installment of pictures to come later, which include a closeup of the famous 'bump' at the new Abbey corner.
 
The problem is, the stewards seem to be consulting the teams. They were in talks with Renault and Ferrari, but the rules are in black and white, you overtake off the track, you give the place back or get a drive through penalty.Ferrari should have known this, they hoped that the Stewards would turn a blind eye as they argued 'Alonso was forced off the track' (Which I actually believe he was in a sense, but it wasn't unfair of Kubica to do so, thats what you get for overtaking on the outside).

Forcing another driver off track IS also against the rules as well, so theoretically (if you want to nit-pick) in this case Kubica could have been penalized as well.
 
Forcing another driver off track IS also against the rules as well, so theoretically (if you want to nit-pick) in this case Kubica could have been penalized as well.

Except he didn't actually force him off the track. He simply held his line in a tight chicane and gave Alonso four options:

1) Back off
2) Cut the corner and concede
3) Cut the corner and overtake
3) Crash

He picked number 3, which is marginally better than crashing but not as good as #2 or #1, either of which are what he should have done (and don't tell me that backing off wasn't an option because it very obviously was). If he was that much quicker, he could surely have passed Kubica later on anyway without cutting the corner somewhere.
 
Except he didn't actually force him off the track. He simply held his line in a tight chicane and gave Alonso four options:
.

Yes, he held his line and clearly forced Alonso off the road when he knew he was there (Alonso was slightly ahead at that point) and could have backed off slightly and conceded position. Instead Kubica decided to push Alonso off track which was the easy way out of preventing a immanent pass where Alonso already had the upper hand for the next corner :lol:
 
Yes, he held his line and clearly forced Alonso off the road when he knew he was there (Alonso was slightly ahead at that point) and could have backed off slightly and conceded position. Instead Kubica decided to push Alonso off track which was the easy way out of preventing a immanent pass where Alonso already had the upper hand for the next corner :lol:
It's called motor racing for a reason. It's not called After you Claude, or Fernando. Kubica held his line as he is perfectly entitled to do. He didn't force Alonso anywhere. Alonso chose, out of the 4 options mentioned above, the option to overtake off of the circuit.
 
Kubica did nothing wrong, he held his line. That corner/chicane section is not a place for overtaking normally. Kubica simply put himself on the inside line and then took the corner normally. Alonso should have seen it coming that the door would be shut like that, so Alonso had the choice of braking or going off track, not Kubica.

The other scenario is where you are effectively saying Kubica must move out of the way for the holy one. It doesn't work like that.
 
Thanks for sharing those pics, Alex. Awesome to hear that you also had a conversation with Newey. Whenever I try to talk to someone famous my mind turns blank, and I just stare like a stunned idiot.
 
Very nice pics Alex! 👍 Did you remind Alguersuari of your previous meeting? Did he remember?
 
Kubica did nothing wrong, he held his line. That corner/chicane section is not a place for overtaking normally. Kubica simply put himself on the inside line and then took the corner normally. Alonso should have seen it coming that the door would be shut like that, so Alonso had the choice of braking or going off track, not Kubica.

The other scenario is where you are effectively saying Kubica must move out of the way for the holy one. It doesn't work like that.

Agreed 👍

I feel on some occasions, Kubica can be overly aggressive with his driving. (So can Lewis, Fernando, Sebastien etc. It's not just him)

This was not one of those occasions.
 
Yes, he held his line and clearly forced Alonso off the road when he knew he was there (Alonso was slightly ahead at that point)

No, he didn't. Read my post again. Kubica was in position, it was Alonso's responsibility to pass using one of the four options I listed. He chose one of the options that would get him looked at by the stewards.

It was his problem, not Kubica's.

and could have backed off slightly and conceded position.

That's definitely what a competitive driver would do when he was leading another driver. Back off and make it easy for him...

Instead Kubica decided to push Alonso off track which was the easy way out of preventing a immanent pass where Alonso already had the upper hand for the next corner :lol:

If you watch the move again you'll see they were hardly going to crash into each other given the positions they were in. The pass wasn't even slightly *imminent until Alonso decided to cheat.

And in a tight chicane, there's no such thing as having the line for the next corner if you're passing. The lead driver (Kubica, in this example, given that he was ahead) picks the line open to him, and the driver behind has to concede. Only if Alonso had literally been so far ahead through the corner that he was in front before the right-hand part (had he stayed on the circuit) would he then be able to choose the line.

Incidentally, Button and Hamilton proved in Turkey that it's quite possible to run side-by-side through tight corners without cutting them or running someone off the road, so that Alonso had to cut the corner is simply a mistake on his part, given the other options open to him.
 
I see one problem with the way the rules work now in regards to the Alonso incident. Let's say I cut a chicane and overtake a car. I'm supposed to let the other guy pass, but what if at that exact moment he leaves the race? Seeing how they handled Alonso, that would be a drive-through penalty, but it doesn't seem to be too fair.
 
I see one problem with the way the rules work now in regards to the Alonso incident. Let's say I cut a chicane and overtake a car. I'm supposed to let the other guy pass, but what if at that exact moment he leaves the race? Seeing how they handled Alonso, that would be a drive-through penalty, but it doesn't seem to be too fair.

I said this before but I will say this again. The penalty was a bit harsh in my opinion but he made the mistake right there. In case if Kubica retired/suffer a problem on the spot right after the corner then FIA can actually drop the penalty(which I doubt if FIA will do it). In this case, he was running at least 1-2 laps before he retired and at the time Alonso already passed Buemi/Alguersuari either one of the Torro Rosso(if I'm not mistaken).

He clearly had the advantage already and Kubica didn't expect the car to let go... So far the most suitable penalty would be the drive-through penalty but rules are rules and if it says a penalty, then penalty is a penalty though I think it was a bit harsh.

EDIT:

Adrian Sutil
"I had some good battles today but the last one was not fair," Sutil said. "Sebastian pushed me off the track and I lost seventh place. It's annoying. I don't think that's the way you have to pass with a car that is two seconds faster."

Sebastien Vettel
"It was definitely not intentional and I don't think it hurt him too much. I don't think there's much more to say about it."

ESPNF1
Sutil recently had a dig at Vettel after the Canadian Grand Prix, when he mockingly described his fellow German as a "superstar" following a post-race dispute. Sutil said that Vettel had sarcastically asked him if his rear-view mirrors had fallen off during the race.

Enough said, I really don't like Vettel's attitude. I thought he was a good and clean racer... His last move with Adrian was harsh and unfair in my opinion. Mature racer should've give the place back if he made a contact like that (except for brushing) but he keeps on going and took 7th off Adrian thus he didn't meant his word ''not intentional''. That's what I see from my point of view...
 
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Mature racer should've give the place back if he made a contact like that (except for brushing) but he keeps on going and took 7th off Adrian thus he didn't meant his word ''not intentional''. That's what I see from my point of view...

Which F1 are you watching?
 
Mature racer should've give the place back if he made a contact like that (except for brushing) but he keeps on going and took 7th off Adrian thus he didn't meant his word ''not intentional''. That's what I see from my point of view...

And that right there is what is wrong with the racing rules for GTP. It's racing not hot lapping and letting people by if they are faster. I think that GTP should adopt a sporting code closer to iRacing's just so that this whole NO TOUCHING rule gets thrown out, and people can race and if there is an actual incident with a pass then it can be dealt with but not for that. If you take the car out or knock him off into the dirt. But if you can point to me in any single professional series where if there is contact during a pass the driver gives the spot up? Mature race drivers know that that happens in racing and they get on with the race at hand.

Vettle tried passing Sutil cleanly for quite a few laps and nearing the end of the race. Vettle finally put the car in a very small hole, but he made the pass with out taking anyone out. It was the end of the race where you start seeing more desperate passes like dive bombs down the inside. You see it in every series of racing.
 
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Yeah, I'm really confused right now. Where did GTP and iRacing come from? :confused:
 
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