2010 Formula 1 British Grand Prix

[homeforsummer]

Alonso won a position (to a pilot who retired in the next lap) and had a penalty that has sent to last position.

Alonso's fail was entirely based on the positions of the other racers. A penalty will never affect one driver the same as any other.

It is not my intention to offend any group, but it seems clear the disproportionality in the distribution of sanctions almost always benefiting British racers and teams.

Utter, and complete bollocks.

One: Most of the teams are based in the UK, so you've immediately tarred virtually every team with the same brush regardless of whether a decision goes for or against them. Secondly, you really need to take a look through the FIA's decisions in the past to see how many Ferrari have done well out of.

To say that "British drivers and teams" always benefit is absolutely and categorically wrong. It's not up for debate at all.

 

[DGiant2000]

Alonso won a position (to a pilot who retired in the next lap) and had a penalty that has sent to last position.

Hamilton won 20 positions and their punishment had no effect.

It is not my intention to offend any group, but it seems clear the disproportionality in the distribution of sanctions almost always benefiting British racers and teams.

Personally, I don't like Alonso and I don't feel identified with him, but those decisions misrepresent the races.

Is a sport tainted by corruption and manipulation of its top management.

British Bias!! What short memories some people have given the treatment McLaren and Hamilton have recieved over the past few years! Like I said, both recieved exactly the same penalty, the fact that Lewis had got himself into a position where he could retain his place after the penalty is neither here nor there, especially given, as I said, Alonso could have avoided his far more easily by simply giving back the place next corner. He waited, as Lewis did, for the stewards to make a decision and it backfired on him. I can't possibly see how you can percieve two identical penalties as a bias to one side?

 

[Seismica]

Alonso won a position (to a pilot who retired in the next lap) and had a penalty that has sent to last position.

Hamilton won 20 positions and their punishment had no effect.

It is not my intention to offend any group, but it seems clear the disproportionality in the distribution of sanctions almost always benefiting British racers and teams.

Personally, I don't like Alonso and I don't feel identified with him, but those decisions misrepresent the races.

Is a sport tainted by corruption and manipulation of its top management.

So the penalties came at different points in the race... Alonso was seriously unlucky with the timing of the safety car. He should have given the place back straight away. You overtake off-track, you give the place back or you get a drive through. They decided to wait for instruction from the Stewards and by which time Kubica had retired. Hamilton only benefitted because of the length of time the Stewards took to make a decision. But Alonso lost out due to the same reason. He should have given the place back straight away, it's a very simple rule...

You forget the amount of times that Ferrari have benefitted in the past from Stewards' decisions, and Hamilton was on the recieving end of one of those in Spa 2008.

 

[Prince.M5]

Alonso didn't win the position at all, he cut the corner. Although I do feel the penalty is harsh considering he had nowhere to go except off the track or run into Kubica, however he should still of given the place back immediately. When Kubica retired though I think the penalty should of been dropped.

Well somehow I do thought of the same too that his penalty was a bit harsh but he overtook Kubica out track and that against the rules obviously. I don't know why but he SHOULD have given the position back to Kubica rather than getting himself into a penalty. Doesn't matter Kubica retired or not, but rules are rules and when the rules says so, then penalty is a penalty. This is beyond our power so we can only say here...

 

[homeforsummer]

Are all Spaniards hot-headed and unreasonable?

I'd advise caution, with comments like that you're straying a little close to racial stereotyping yourself. Lets try and keep that out of the discussion, yes? Play the ball and not the man

 

[Scaff]

Alonso won a position (to a pilot who retired in the next lap) and had a penalty that has sent to last position.

Alonso did not 'win' a position at all, if you leave the track and gain position as a result then you must return the place(s) gained or suffer the required penalty.

That the driver in question retired three laps later (not one) makes no difference at all, Alonso could have let him back past, the Ferrari team took the decision not to and as such were in no position to moan about the end result.

Keep in mind when Hamilton did just such a thing in Spa he ended up disqualified.

Hamilton won 20 positions and their punishment had no effect.

He took the position, that the net result was that he didn't loose a position is once again incidental. The punishment was given and taken, that it didn't have the result that you seem to want makes no difference at all.

It is not my intention to offend any group, but it seems clear the disproportionality in the distribution of sanctions almost always benefiting British racers and teams.

Utter and complete rubbish.

And if it was not your intention I have some bad news for you; you kind of missed the mark on that by a large way.

The irony here is that Ferrari demanded a clarification on this after the last race, they got exactly what they demanded and now it's bitten them on the bum.

Personally, I don't like Alonso and I don't feel identified with him, but those decisions misrepresent the races.

If that's the case you should take a good hard look at how you post, because the manner you put yourself across in this thread screams something different.

Is a sport tainted by corruption and manipulation of its top management.

Accusations that are often thrown about, yet the team you seem to be implying is at the heart of this (you are all but saying Hamilton and McLaren are fixing the races) are the ones who have been hit hardest by FIA sanctions over the last few years.

A selective memory is never going to do you any favours in this kind of discussion.

I'd advise caution, with comments like that you're straying a little close to racial stereotyping yourself. Lets try and keep that out of the discussion, yes? Play the ball and not the man

Quite right.

Anyone attacking another member rather that the argument they are putting forward will find a warning/infraction in their in-box.



Scaff

 

[Seismica]

I'd advise caution, with comments like that you're straying a little close to racial stereotyping yourself. Lets try and keep that out of the discussion, yes? Play the ball and not the man

It's just my view of Alonso, but yes you're right I shouldn't have said it. I've removed it from my post.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Alonso won a position (to a pilot who retired in the next lap) and had a penalty that has sent to last position.

Alonso broke the rules. He gained a position after leaving the circuit and did not gie it back. The penalty for that has, for as long as I can recall, been a drive-through penalty.

Hamilton won 20 positions and their punishment had no effect.

Hamilton took his Valencia penalty from second place. He emerged onto the track in second place. So I have no idea where you're getting this number of twenty positions from.

Is a sport tainted by corruption and manipulation of its top management.

Typical anti-FIA fan. You're very quick to through around serious criminal accusations - corruption - simply because you disagree with one decision in the middle of a race.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Great race by Webber, Hamilton, Rosberg, Button and .... KOBAYASHI!

About the Ferrari - Alonso messup, I just can't believe the stupidity of the Ferrari team. It was harsh given the circumstances, but it was OBVIOUS that Alonso should have immediately give the position back, doing it later could only have more serious consequences to Alonso's race.

About the comments here on what bias has the FIA nowadays, I find any claim about it as ridiculous as I found the similar claims I kept reading here a few years ago. Posters have switched camp, that's the only difference I find. Only interludes remains consistent with his "anti-conspiracy-theories" stance. Much easier job to do now than when 99% of posters here claimed FIA meant something not-exactly "Federation Internationale de l'Automobile".

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

Rather good race IMO. I wish it went on for longer, I thought it was funny at the end of the race they where showing a battle then cut to webber suddenly crossing the line, I believe Suaber may be spoken to about letting De La Rosa back out again with his rear wing like that. Overall stunning race looking forward to Hockenhiem(SP).

LOL at Barrichelo 'don't forget to watch topgear' :]

 

[niky]

@Hun200kmh: Well.. in the past, I felt that while some of the infractions given to McLaren were fair, some were unbelievable: the invented "give the place back if you've overtaken a guy who you've given back a position because you went off track to overtake him two corners ago" rule was patently ridiculous... and still is.

I like the new safety car rule. While it's still fiddly about the maintaining speed... at least it's now clear that the safety car is only there to gather up the lead car (which has, traditionally, always been the case, anyway).

It's ridiculous for Ferrari to be playing the role of martyr. Especially not when they benefitted from a penalty in Monaco (over a rather unclear rule over a last-lap yellow-green change) not so long ago.

The one thing that really smarts is that it took the stewards so long to give Alonso a penalty... about which Robert Kubica rightfully complained... perhaps they need another twenty stewards per race watching all the on-board camera feeds?

Alonso's penalty was more than fair. There are only so many different penalties in the stewards' arsenal... and move back one space isn't one of them (that isn't a penalty... that's the rule)... Alonso knew he would get a drive-through for it... and yet... he did it, anyway. His raceday was terrible. Bogged off the line, took out his team-mate, and ended up way out of the points. I lay Ferrari's disastrous 14th-15th result entirely at his feet...

He's such an amazing driver... but he's too damn emotional. Just one thing goes wrong and he just loses it. (Shades of Turkey... where he got so peeved at the backmarkers that he left the barn door open for both Lewis and Jenson to drive on through...)

----

Vettel's run back through the pack was breath-taking, but his overtake on Adrian Sutil was unnecessarily risky... almost ended both their races.

McLaren pulled off an incredible result to what was shaping up to be a disastrous weekend. They got the cars right at the very last minute and got Jenson on a great run up and into the points.

Rosberg had a great day... lost a place to Kubica early on, but managed to keep his nose clean and out of trouble for a podium. Good Job. Schumacher, not so much.

I'd say more about Webber... but that goes in the other thread...

 

[Freeman_Cruz]

Ok, I am aware that I have a divergent opinion, but not gonna change my way of thinking. I've been watching F1's enough years to get a fairly clear picture of the ineptitude of the FIA to get a more exciting races where riders prevail over pit-changes or molded legislation to serve the pre-elected champions.

I will not write my "racist" and ill-considered comments on this subforum again. I just hope that sooner rather than later, the makers agree to create a true world championship and leave this boring deception who has become the F1 for years.

Sorry for the inconvenience and bad grammar.

 

[Stevisiov]

Ok, I am aware that I have a divergent opinion, but not gonna change my way of thinking. I've been watching F1's enough years to get a fairly clear picture of the ineptitude of the FIA to get a more exciting races where riders prevail over pit-changes or molded legislation to serve the pre-elected champions.

I will not write my "racist" and ill-considered comments on this subforum again. I just hope that sooner rather than later, the makers agree to create a true world championship and leave this boring deception who has become the F1 for years.

Sorry for the inconvenience and bad grammar.

Hmm, I really ought to get my tin foil hat back on. The pre-elected world champions bit is really....eye opening.

 

[niky]

...molded legislation to serve the pre-elected champions.

Wow. So the FIA vote on the winner? Lucky Alonso, then... since they've voted for him twice and for Lewis just once. Well.. actually Lewis merely lucked into his one championship... overtaking Glock on the very last lap of the very last race to beat the FIA's elected champion for that year, Felipe, on points. A fact which angered them so much that Bernie moved to have the F1 Championship position decided by Russian Roulette instead of by secret ballot.

I will not write my "racist" and ill-considered comments on this subforum again. I just hope that sooner rather than later, the makers agree to create a true world championship and leave this boring deception who has become the F1 for years.

Sorry for the inconvenience and bad grammar.

Good bye, then?

 

[chromatic9]

Ferrari sure like to learn the hard way.

Would love to see their reaction if Kubica cut the corner and put his foot down to overtake precious Alonso. They'd be crying their hearts out to Charlie. It was clear Alonso should've gave the place back and tried again. Ferrari delay the process as they foolishly try to put forward that Alonso is in the right to carry on and then ask what the decision is. They need to get real and stop trying to write the rules around Alonso's situations.

Great starts off the line by Webber and Hamilton. Really pleased for Webber.

I feel Webber has every right to be annoyed at Red Bull. This isn't Hamiltion and Kovalainen or other similar team scenario. Webber and Vettel are head to head going for the title and still half the calendar to go. Webber has out qualified and out-raced Vettel and is in the form of his life. You can't give Vettel a leg up in quali. It's stage managing Webber to potentially qualify second. I really understand how pissed Webber is. Awful decision by Red Bull.

 

[Anghammarad]

Did Vettel get any penalty for the ugly ugly pass on Sutil?

 

[Prince.M5]

Did Vettel get any penalty for the ugly ugly pass on Sutil?

I agreed the pass wasn't that beautiful. It was quite hard to judge who made a mistake from the bad camera angle but from what I saw Vettel jumped inside, made the contact and pushed Sutil quite wide... Seems like there wouldn't be any penalty.

 

[Fastas]

Did Vettel get any penalty for the ugly ugly pass on Sutil?

I was pretty dismayed by that pass but then again, I found myself asking was it better than no pass at all...

One thing was clear, he probably could not have done a better job of it given the pace of the Force India.

What about when he did Schumi? I seriously thought he was going to swerve right and hit him I guess the boy is learning.

 

[niky]

Did Vettel get any penalty for the ugly ugly pass on Sutil?

He's getting a spanking later from a large hairy woman who used to be on the East German Olympic wrestling team.

 

[Peter]

What!!??? How can they give Alonso a Drive Through Penalty for being forced off the road by Kubica?? Especially since Kubica retired almost immediately after.

 

[Sonzilla]

Rubens is a great driver, beating him is no mean feat, as Mr Hulk is finding out right now. This is Nico Hulkenburg - the so called next Lewis Hamilton, being beaten quite competently by Rubens. Does this make Rubens better than Alonso?

Jenson won with skill, his championship year is no less than any other champions.
I have to laugh when people say "yeah but he had the best car". And Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Stewart...they didn't exactly have bad cars did they?

I disagree simply that Brawn GP's "CAR" was miles ahead of everyone during the first 7 races. I give the designer way more credit for their success than driver, simply because that diffuser was an engineers masterpiece you could throw in Jaime Alguersuari in that car and he would've got podium the first 7 races as well.

It was a rare season that brought out lots of new rules including new aerodynamic regulations where the other top teams were just caught up in development issues but as soon as the big teams such as Mclaren, Ferrari and RedBull started to catch up but still slower than Brawn by only a few tenths on average, the drivers were faster on track simply do to confidence and raw talent to push their car's to the maximum tilt. Button's driving habit just won't allow the same intensity he's just a smooth pucker...lol

Button no wins just 2nd and 3rd from 8-17 races...lmao!

Brawn still had the favored faster car throughout the entire season but they just couldn't get it done RedBull, Mclaren and Ferrari all showed how it's done with their drivers, all they needed was to be within a tenth on speed with Brawn and the drivers will do the rest for the other tenth's to get pole and win..Vettel and Lewis drove their azz'z off matching Button with 4 poles each. 👍


I'm simply making the point it was way more car than Driver that got Jenson the championship, simply fact. If you look at his lap times throughout the last half of the season they showed that they still had a faster car but Button just doesn't have the talent to take it to that limit and make it match Lewis and Vettel when it mattered the most. Button's poor qualifying attempts put him in bad spots, along with some driver errors. He had one Ret not his fault but the rest speaks for itself.

Again Button is Champion much thanks to Super Aguri employees working on the Brwan concept a year before any of the other teams, just a masterful design.👍


Same goes for this season first win thanks to Vettel's Brake Failure. Malaysia win thanks to a wet/drying track Strategy won him that race. Nothing has changed since so far he's slower than Hamilton with the same car he's another Kovalainen thorn on Lewis foot.


Just saying Button is a great driver in his own smoothness like a ballerina skipping along stage in essence.. lol

 

[homeforsummer]

What!!??? How can they give Alonso a Drive Through Penalty for being forced off the road by Kubica?? Especially since Kubica retired almost immediately after.

So I guess you missed the rest of the discussion then?...

 

[Scaff]

Ok, I am aware that I have a divergent opinion, but not gonna change my way of thinking. I've been watching F1's enough years to get a fairly clear picture of the ineptitude of the FIA to get a more exciting races where riders prevail over pit-changes or molded legislation to serve the pre-elected champions.

I will not write my "racist" and ill-considered comments on this subforum again. I just hope that sooner rather than later, the makers agree to create a true world championship and leave this boring deception who has become the F1 for years.

Sorry for the inconvenience and bad grammar.

Hold on a second!

A few posts ago you accused the FIA and stewards of having an English/British bias and now you are claiming that the FIA exist to serve pre-existing champions.

Given that (and your years of F1 viewing experience) would you care to explain to me (as an Englishman) why is was exactly we had to wait so bloody long to actually get a British F1 champion. Surely we should have one each year!

If your claim is indeed correct then I also want to know what that bugger Coulthard did to annoy them (or was he not British enough what with the coming from Scotland).

I still strongly suspect that if we were looking at Alonso and Hamilton in opposite positions here you would not be quite so vocal in your protests.


Scaff

 

[Fastas]

What!!??? How can they give Alonso a Drive Through Penalty for being forced off the road by Kubica?? Especially since Kubica retired almost immediately after.

Yeah, I bet you were gutted too when Raikkonen ran Hamilton of the track at Spa a couple of years back.

 

[Anghammarad]

I would argue that the Vettel-Sutil pass was as much deserving of a penalty as the Alonso-Kubica incident and probably more. Alonso had clear overlap on Kubica and was pushed offtrack by the Pole. He had absolutely nowhere to go to avoid a crash other than where he went. But at that time he was already ahead. He recieved a penalty nonetheless when actually Kubica should have had it.

Vettel tried his very best to push Sutil off by using a touring car press. It was shere luck that not one of teh cars, or both, crashed. He gets a pat on the back.

Either none of the incidents are penalised, or both.

 

[Scaff]

What!!??? How can they give Alonso a Drive Through Penalty for being forced off the road by Kubica?? Especially since Kubica retired almost immediately after.

Maybe because Kubica didn't force him off the road and the retirement three laps later is totally irrelevant.


Just a thought.

Scaff

 

[Ardius]

I'm with PJ (and Brundle and Coulthard) on Alonso actually, the penalty was far too harsh. It went from giving 1 place back to being put to the back of the pack. Now, perhaps Ferrari gave themselves that penalty by not giving the place back immediately but I think there is a case for it really just being a racing incident.
The way it played out didn't look like Alonso planned on overtaking Kubica in that fashion, just that he ran out of road and had no other choice, just like a L.Hamilton 2 years ago. Alonso did gain an advantage (like Lewis did) and should have given the place back, but I don't think the end result penalty was entirely justified.
Again, like the Schumacher penalty earlier this year - its not the worst case of stewarding I've seen. But it wasn't entirely right.

Anyway, great drives from Webber, Hamilton, Button, Kobayashi, Barrichello....hell, most of the top 10 drove well.

The new silverstone layout came good....I really don't want to curse the next race but this season has been rediculously good so far. I mean, Valencia of all places was (relatively) an exciting race!??!?!?
I think the only dull moments this year were Bahrain and Spain.

The Red Bull situation is getting nastier it seems. 👎

I disagree simply that Brawn GP's "CAR" was miles ahead of everyone during the first 7 races. I give the designer way more credit for their success than driver, simply because that diffuser was an engineers masterpiece you could throw in Jaime Alguersuari in that car and he would've got podium the first 7 races as well.

It was a rare season that brought out lots of new rules including new aerodynamic regulations where the other top teams were just caught up in development issues but as soon as the big teams such as Mclaren, Ferrari and RedBull started to catch up but still slower than Brawn by only a few tenths on average, the drivers were faster on track simply do to confidence and raw talent to push their car's to the maximum tilt. Button's driving habit just won't allow the same intensity he's just a smooth pucker...lol

Button no wins just 2nd and 3rd from 8-17 races...lmao!

Brawn still had the favored faster car throughout the entire season but they just couldn't get it done RedBull, Mclaren and Ferrari all showed how it's done with their drivers, all they needed was to be within a tenth on speed with Brawn and the drivers will do the rest for the other tenth's to get pole and win..Vettel and Lewis drove their azz'z off matching Button with 4 poles each. 👍

I'm simply making the point it was way more car than Driver that got Jenson the championship, simply fact. If you look at his lap times throughout the last half of the season they showed that they still had a faster car but Button just doesn't have the talent to take it to that limit and make it match Lewis and Vettel when it mattered the most. Button's poor qualifying attempts put him in bad spots, along with some driver errors. He had one Ret not his fault but the rest speaks for itself.

Again Button is Champion much thanks to Super Aguri employees working on the Brwan concept a year before any of the other teams, just a masterful design.👍

Just saying Button is a great driver in his own smoothness like a ballerina skipping along stage in essence.. lol

"its all the car, anyone could win".

Yes, and you conveniently ignore what you quote. So how did Button beat Barrichello then? How did Damon Hill beat Jacques Villenueve? How did Michael Schumacher beat Eddie Irvine or Rubens? Mika Hakkinen beat David Coulthard? Senna beat Prost? They all had the same cars, but apparently its "all the car".

I'm of the belief that 90% of the drivers who reach Formula 1 level are great drivers. The car helps but it doesn't drive itself. Not only that but its not just driving the car around the track but conducting yourself on and off the track and keeping your cool through the season. To use your example, Alguesuari has not proven himself consistently fast enough to win a championship yet at F1 level as Buemi has generally had the better of him. Therefore, Jaime would not have been world champion in a Brawn and therefore the car does not win you the championship though it is an important part. I believe I pointed that out with the champions I mentioned.

What will it take for people to accept Button is good? Even Ross Brawn as talking about how great Jenson was all last season, and he has the data to prove it!

 

[Scaff]

I'm with PJ (and Brundle and Coulthard) on Alonso actually, the penalty was far too harsh. It went from giving 1 place back to being put to the back of the pack. Now, perhaps Ferrari gave themselves that penalty by not giving the place back immediately but I think there is a case for it really just being a racing incident.

The cause may or may not have been a racing incident, but that doesn't change the fact that he gained a position by leaving the track.

The regulations on that are quite clear, you can give the position back or take a penalty. The standard penalty for which is a drive-through.

What other option did the stewards have, given that Ferrari and/or Alonso didn't opt to give the position back?

The way it played out didn't look like Alonso planned on overtaking Kubica in that fashion, just that he ran out of road and had no other choice, just like a L.Hamilton 2 years ago. Alonso did gain an advantage (like Lewis did) and should have given the place back, but I don't think the end result penalty was entirely justified.

Its not 100% like it however, as LH gave back that position at Spa, and then overtook again, and then got a penalty for regaining the position too quickly (for which a new rule needed to be found).

Anyway, great drives from Webber, Hamilton, Button, Kobayashi, Barrichello....hell, most of the top 10 drove well.

The new silverstone layout came good....I really don't want to curse the next race but this season has been rediculously good so far. I mean, Valencia of all places was (relatively) an exciting race!??!?!?
I think the only dull moments this year were Bahrain and Spain.

The Red Bull situation is getting nastier it seems. 👎

Now all of that I agree with 100%



Scaff

 

[Famine]

I'm with PJ (and Brundle and Coulthard) on Alonso actually, the penalty was far too harsh. It went from giving 1 place back to being put to the back of the pack. Now, perhaps Ferrari gave themselves that penalty by not giving the place back immediately but I think there is a case for it really just being a racing incident.
The way it played out didn't look like Alonso planned on overtaking Kubica in that fashion, just that he ran out of road and had no other choice, just like a L.Hamilton 2 years ago. Alonso did gain an advantage (like Lewis did) and should have given the place back, but I don't think the end result penalty was entirely justified.

And yet the situations are kinda comparable. Lewis passed off the track, gave the place back and, through no fault of his own, broke a rule that hadn't been written yet about having to wait until after the next corner. The punishment for not being able to give the place back properly? A drive-through penalty (applied retrospectively to the race as a 25s time addition, since there wasn't sufficient time remaining).

Alonso passed off the track and didn't even attempt to give the place back (had he done so, this would all have been avoided). Before the instruction to cede the place could come, through no fault of his own, the car retired and the safety car came out. The punishment for not being able to give the place back properly? A drive-through penalty...

 

[Ardius]

I didn't agree with Lewis' penalty either, so indeed.

The cause may or may not have been a racing incident, but that doesn't change the fact that he gained a position by leaving the track.

The regulations on that are quite clear, you can give the position back or take a penalty. The standard penalty for which is a drive-through.

What other option did the stewards have, given that Ferrari and/or Alonso didn't opt to give the position back?

To not give a penalty? Who has he gained an advantage on without Kubica there? Arguably he gained something by being ahead of Robert with clean air but even so.
I agree that for the stewards it was a difficult situation. But I think the end result penalty was far harsher than it needed to be even without the safety car making it worse.