2010 Formula 1 Monaco Grand Prix

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Then I don't see why you justify and condone Hill getting his revenge through his role as steward either :rolleyes: :lol: He must be a "very bad loser" as well.

People are merely people. If I were in Damon's position, I'd find it hard not to issue a £20k fine to Schumacher for merely turning up this weekend.

Are we done now, or will the "discussion" continue to where people start insulting each other and moderators have to step in to remind everyone of the site rules?

Keep digging...you're just making yourself look like a fool due to your immaturity.

Oh, right.
 
Are we done now, or will the "discussion" continue to where people start insulting each other and moderators have to step in to remind everyone of the site rules?

Could do. I'm starting to wonder whether we'll get through a single Grand Prix this season without an argument.
 
Could do. I'm starting to wonder whether we'll get through a single Grand Prix this season without an argument.

Steady on, people will get the impression that F1 is not boring :lol:
 
I don't understand whats so difficult about a black and white rule

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

However:

40.4 When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.

Drivers were given a green flag at the last corner.:trouble:

No matter who’s involved here this will unfortunately join the pile off Questionable Stewards Decisions.👎
 
Green flag means race. Ergo, Schumi's overtake was legal.
[/discussion]

:D
 
Too bad the FIA won't care, or even notice some discussion about it on a GT forum.
 
What the..:odd: I'm away from GTP for a day and you all go insane?

Am I the only one who watched the BBC coverage?, because to quote Damon Hill:
"I am merely here to add a driver's perspective on racing incidents, I am not there to hand out the punishments".
He said this before the race I might add too.

The point of the driver stewards is not to be judge, jury and executioner. They are effectively the jury. The stewards will only ask for a driver's point of view and all Damon can do in this case is look at the rule book. My opinion is that Schumacher broke the rule, the rule may be stupid and may need changing but he broke it.

Honestly, a load of fuss over nothing, I am very surprised to see this being such a hot topic.

Surely the real hot topic should be the fantastic race we saw? So much happened that I'm going to have to leave a review for later in the week as I don't have much time right now with exams!
 
I got a bit bored once the spectacle of cars doing 180mph a foot from a barrier wore off. I like over-taking, we had a handful of on-track moves, mostly from Alonso on backmarkers.
 
Wow if the stewards don't go back on the Schumacher decision then I am done with this boring sport, I'll make extra effort to follow endurance racing more instead.
 
There are four race stewards of which Damon Hill is only one and further more, can only offer his opinion to the official stewards, he can not single handedly dish out penalties.

Damon Hill shouldn't of even had an input into this ruling, it was not a race incident but an open and shut case for the rule book. If it were only the rule book involved MSC's 6th position would stand. In my opinion a biased influence was placed amongst the stewards and the regulations clearly contradicted.

Last time I checked Ross Brawn was not in charge of the FIA, F1 or any other race rule defining body that influences the results of a formula 1 race.

I know what Ross Brawn is and isnt in charge of. And I'm quite sure Mr Brawn understands the rules perfectly. If you follow the written rule, Brawns argument has no flaws. The evidence he presented at the end of the race was clear as day! Even the statement i quoted from the BBC was in error:

Schumacher passed Alonso on his way out of Rascasse and into Anthony Noghes, but the move came under a safety car.
The safety car came in. Race conditions followed. The same information was sent to the teams of which Brawn had further evidence. If the rules need clarification, MSC's penalty cannot stand. As they are now, the pass was fine.

Close your eyes tight if you want but, there is a written counter argument that is actually implemented and adhered to by all of the teams as part of the championship.
I'm not trying to be facetious, i literally dont understand your point here. Clarify if you want and i will comment.

I bet Damon Hill will be devastated by this. :dunce:
Also not exactly sure of the point you were trying to make with that emote. I came here to express my opinion. I didnt even ask for yours, but thats fine, however i certainly didnt ask to be insulted.
 
Damon Hill was just there to give an experienced driver's perspective on incidents. However, the Schumacher incident was all about black & white (or a bit of grey) rules, so I would say Hill did not have a defining position in this decision.

The problem for me is, on the final lap a caption was displayed - "Safety car in this lap". I interpret this as meaning, "the track is clear, ready to race". If this is the case, then Schumacher, by the rules, was allowed to overtake where he did.

The problem only emerges if the "Safety car in this lap" message was intended to mean the car is coming in, but it is still a safety car period. I can't see how it could have meant that.

To me it appears there was a great ambiguity with the final lap message, and also in the rules. So I think they should either have let him away with it, or at most just reverse the overtaking positions, given the special circumstances. However, they spent a couple of hours going over this, so there must be a bit more to it.

Anyway, what a smart move! I was hoping Schumacher's reaction would be - "Who said you can't overtake at Monaco!".
 
Here is how I see it.

Following this rule: "40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking." Schumacher should not have overtaken Alonso.

It says "will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking". Doesn't this mean the race will finish under a green flag as those are "normal" conditions. But overtaking is still not allowed in that circumstance.

I think though Schumacher was unfairly penalised. Should have just been a reversal of positions and left at that. The rules also need to be clarified to make it a 100% clear. Having the green flag out but not allowing overtaking (where in any other circumstance you could overtake with the green flag out) is just confusing.
 
I think though Schumacher was unfairly penalised. Should have just been a reversal of positions and left at that. The rules also need to be clarified to make it a 100% clear. Having the green flag out but not allowing overtaking (where in any other circumstance you could overtake with the green flag out) is just confusing.

The stewards only have a couple of options for penalties. Well teams should now know what is allowed under these circumstances.
 
It's an ambiguous rule... since the rule was written before the adoption of the safety car line... and it should be rewritten to reflect that change, and you can't fault Schumacher for taking the opportunity when he saw it. Unfortunately for him, the rule is there, so it is followed. As opposed to them rewriting the rules and retroactively applying them, as they used to do with Hamilton. :lol:

The twenty second penalty is normally a very benign one. Normally meaning you're at the end of the race and the entire pack is strung out over several laps. Not that you're at the end of the race and everyone is bunched up behind the safety car. Tough luck for Schumi, but I don't recall there being any "one position down" penalty in F1. :dunce:
 
So funny, I missed it :dunce: because on TV they where explaining the rules in all detail, meaning even if the safetycar goes in, nobody is allowed to overtake, so I didn't bother looking at it anymore after the first three crossed the finish line... Schumi should've watched RTL. :sly:
 
i dont see him getting out of it which is sad.... I think its a rare case when both sides could be argued to be correct :lol:
 
Alonso just fell asleep and, once again (but only if it's okay by Anghammarad), I find it funny.

Yeah yeah.

The pass from Schumacher _was_ cheeky and Alonso _was_ caught napping. Schumi was also correctly penalised under the rules but I have a feeling that that particular rule will be changed already in the next race since it is clearly outdated.
 
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Formula 1
17 May 2010

Formula 1 news


153899.jpg

Webber fined €2,200 for pit lane speeding

Monaco Grand Prix winner Mark Webber has received a fine of €2,200 (£1,900) for speeding in the Monte-Carlo pit lane before the start of the race on Sunday. Although Webber stormed to Formula 1 career victory number four later in the afternoon, FIA Race Director Charlie Whiting informed stewards of the pre-race incident, with the Australian having broken the pit lane speed limit shortly after 1:30pm - upon leaving the pits in order to begin his reconnaissance lap prior to forming up on the grid.

With the pit lane speed limit being 60km/h (37.2mph), the figure of €2,200 is generated as Webber's Red Bull was clocked at 70.9km/h (4.9mph) and each kilometre over the limit equates to €200.
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-news/235012/webber-fined-2-200-for-pit-lane-speeding/
 
I still do not think the 20 second penalty was justified.

The contradiction in the rules was so apparent that even the race marshalls were unsure, hence why they waved green flags and not yellow. The race marshalls waved for the race to restart and they did so in contradiction of the rule that the Stewards have just enforced to give the 7 time champion a 20 second penalty.

Because there was no clarity in the rules, the penalty was not justified. The stewards should have clarified the rule and given Alonso his place back, but because of the mistakes of the Marshalls and the contradiction in the rules which were not fully reviewed in my opinion, I believe Schumacher should retain 7th place.

I think the buck stops with race director Charlie Whiting, the marshalls were instructed to wave green flags under yellow flag conditions were they not?
 
Damon Hill shouldn't of even had an input into this ruling, it was not a race incident but an open and shut case for the rule book. If it were only the rule book involved MSC's 6th position would stand. In my opinion a biased influence was placed amongst the stewards and the regulations clearly contradicted.


I know what Ross Brawn is and isnt in charge of. And I'm quite sure Mr Brawn understands the rules perfectly. If you follow the written rule, Brawns argument has no flaws. The evidence he presented at the end of the race was clear as day! Even the statement i quoted from the BBC was in error:


The safety car came in. Race conditions followed. The same information was sent to the teams of which Brawn had further evidence. If the rules need clarification, MSC's penalty cannot stand. As they are now, the pass was fine.



I'm not trying to be facetious, i literally dont understand your point here. Clarify if you want and i will comment.


Also not exactly sure of the point you were trying to make with that emote. I came here to express my opinion. I didnt even ask for yours, but thats fine, however i certainly didnt ask to be insulted.

How do you know Damon Hill did have an input into this decision? Where do you get off on calling a national hero and an ambassador of British/International motor sport an 'imbecile'?

A rule is a rule, it is written in clear, plain English. There is a strict procedure in place and Mercedes have a right to appeal. If the race marshals are proved to have acted incorrectly then so be it. It doesn't mean that F1 has lost any credibility and that people should be put up against a wall for it.

The rule that the Mercedes team are using to form an argument is, in my opinion, superseded by the regulations on the safety car procedure that occurs if the race is about to finish. Had this situation occurred five or ten laps before the end then it would be a different story.

To any one who thinks that this is somehow an attempt by Damon Hill to exact revenge for an incident that happened sixteen years ago - come on now. I don't think there is any form of revenge that would be suitable and to imagine he would bear any kind of grudge at all is beyond my belief. This guy has had a fantastic racing career and continues to contribute massively to motor sport generally. Don't you think he would be in a funny farm if this theory was to be taken seriously at all?
 
Can't imagine Webber cared too much about that fine, probably just took off his sponsor's watch and handed it to the steward.
 
I thought his move at the end of the race was suspicious when I saw it on TV, but I didn't expect he would receive such a big penalty after the race due to how the race condition was then :rolleyes:
 
The stewards should have clarified the rule and given Alonso his place back, but because of the mistakes of the Marshalls and the contradiction in the rules which were not fully reviewed in my opinion, I believe Schumacher should retain 7th place.

I think the buck stops with race director Charlie Whiting, the marshalls were instructed to wave green flags under yellow flag conditions were they not?

They did clarify the rule. You can't pass on the last lap when it ends under a safety car.

Maybe that's the standard procedure? Green on the last lap.

Though Whiting did inform the marshalls:
f1fanatic.co.uk
The Stewards received a report from the Race Director that car Nr 3 – Michael Schumacher overtook car Nr 8 – Fernando Alonso when the Safety Car entered the pit lane at the end of the last lap.



I thought his move at the end of the race was suspicious when I saw it on TV, but I didn't expect he would receive such a big penalty after the race due to how the race condition was then :rolleyes:

The stewards can't make their own penalties.

I guess we will see after the hearing. I think that either the penalty and the rule will stay, or there will be a clarification in favor of Schumacher and a lessening of the penalty.
 
I thought his move at the end of the race was suspicious when I saw it on TV, but I didn't expect he would receive such a big penalty after the race due to how the race condition was then :rolleyes:
It wasn't really a big penalty. Getting a 20 second penalty under normal conditions might just have put him behind Alonso again, but because of the safety car, the field was bunched so he finished at the back.

The penalty itself suited the crime, if indeed there was a crime.
 
Ok, finally I have a bit of time to breath between exams and life so I can sit down and analyse this race, so here's my review for a epic race at Monaco:

I personally love Monaco and enjoy every race here regardless of how exciting it is anyway, every onboard is a joy to watch and I never get bored of it. But this one was definitely one of the better ones, perhaps not the best with 1996, 1982 and co but a good one.
The 3 safety cars kept things close between the leaders and allowed Alonso to make a miraculous recovery drive, I have to admit the race would have been boring without them.

First I'll go over the retirements -
The mechanical retirements list was very high; Hulkenburg, Barrichello, Button, Kovalainen, De La Rosa, Kobayashi, Di Grassi, Glock and Senna all retired from some kind of mechanical trouble once again displaying the tough environment of Monaco. Nothing really noteworthy to say about any of them though Barrichello and Kovalainen had excellent races before their retirements - Rubens getting a brilliant start and Kovalainen running a promising pace. The Virgins and Saubers weren't surprising retirements.

As for the finale collision with Trulli and Chandhok, I think it was pretty desperate for Trulli to try something into Rascasse and he has all the blame for the incident. However, its not the worst mistake I've ever seen, just far too desperate. Well done to Chandhok for running a great race till then, though he did benefit from the retirements of Kovalainen and Senna, as well as Trulli's terrible tyre stop.

Front runners: First of all, congrats to Webber, have to say I never gave him half a chance of winning again. I still have doubts of his championship challenge, but you have to say he's on fine form. Won't be surprised to see Red Bull extend his contract.
The other "winner" of this race was Alonso, perhaps a bit too aggressive on the backmarkers, he made an excellent recovery. Though he benefitted massively from the 1st safety car and pitting early on for hard tyres.
The rest of the front runners did a pretty average job really, Kubica did all he could to hold onto Vettel but it was a pretty straightforward race. Not much else to say, the cars finished in a order relative to their outright pace, no special drives other than perhaps Webber and Kubica.

Midfield: Liuzzi had a terrible start, ending up behind a great start from Sutil. Liuzzi perhaps is slowly signing that contract for Di Resta as it reflects a lot worse when he did well in qualifying (although....Sutil was blocked on his run). He needs to be making more of his opportunities like this and not let his teammate get ahead of him, as he is consistently looking average in a car which could be challenging the Renault at times.
Toro Rosso had mature drives from both drivers, didn't bin it and brought it home.
Sauber had yet more reliability woes, they have worse reliability than the new teams! Even Virgin and HRT have been better this season! Peter is going to be finding it hugely difficult to gain sponsors nevermind selling the team to anyone next year. I hope they can get it together before its too late, as I hate to see the old teams die and Kobayashi has still shown glimpses of his 2009 form when the car was there.
A shocker continues for Williams, double retirement and at a time where their pace is quite questionable. They were ok in qualifying but the dismal performances of this once great team are more and more worrying. I think they will survive a few seasons yet but like everyone everywhere is saying, its quite clear that the one thing that hasn't changed from season to season may be their problem - their management and design team. I almost feel like starting a thread just for them because its an interesting topic.

New teams: I've already covered them in the retirements! :lol: Promising pace for Glock, who held onto Kovalainen until retiring. The HRT's terrible pace continued, I can't decide if they are in more or less trouble than Sauber, because at least they are finishing races! Lotus kept up the form from qualifying though had their share of reliability issues too. There is a picture appearing for these new teams now that they may just make the impact for next year if they sort their 2011 cars. Challenging Williams and Sauber looks very possible. Even HRT, though the car is terrible, the drivers and team as a whole have shown a good steady approach to the weekends and have done some serious mileage.
 
That was not epic. I fell asleep and F1 is my life! Something seriously needs to be done so that F1 cars can follow each other more easily. There used to be a little bit of overtaking at monaco but this time there was just none apart from Alonso with a much faster car.
 
They did clarify the rule. You can't pass on the last lap when it ends under a safety car.

Maybe that's the standard procedure? Green on the last lap.

But that rule contradicted the new rule that came into play. The Stewards only fully clarified the rule after the race had finished.

Ross Brawn made a decent point about there being a distinction between finishing the race under a safety car and the safety car being called in; at which point the race restarts from the pit lane line. The stewards have clarified this to be incorrect, but Mercedes were not the only team to have interpreted the rules this way (Hence why we saw Mark Webber and Sebastien Vettel blitz off after the safety car went into the pits, because they thought they could be passed). Even the race marshalls interpreted it this way, hence the green flags.

I agree, the rule should be enforced. But the penalty given was blatantly unfair.
 
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