2010 Formula 1 Qantas Australian Grand Prix

[725]

Remember that F1 is if backwards....

Very true

I think its fair to say that Jensen did outclass Hamilton this weekend just as Hamilton did in Bahrain. As people have said credit where credit's due Jenson was great this weekend and I think a lot of people are surprised at how well he is doing at McLaren.

Lewis has always said that he likes having a team mate that pushes him and Alonso did just that and it made a very interesting season. Hopefully Jensen can keeping pushing him and give us another interesting season within Mclaren

 

[CAMikaze]

Biggest loser of this race will be Sebastian Vettel... for whom a pole position to victory has been denied a second time by mechanical problems. Strangely, Mark Webber has run (mechanical) fault-free races both times. Could Kimi's Kurse have found a new host? Be afraid... be very afraid.

That's funny because I was thinking the exact same thing

Uh oh... If this keeps up will we be seeing Vettel in WRC next season?[/SILLYSILLYSEASONRUSE]

Its for aero, the teams will admit that. The GPDA is pushing for proper mirrors now ahead of the FOTA meeting next weekend about 2011 regulations. So hopefully it will be changed, because its rediculous that we have drivers just assuming where each other is because they can't see anything in the mirrors.

Provided the drivers are able to see their mirrors. It seems there are more cars on the grid with the mirrors way out on the sidepods instead of close to the cockpit.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

A great race

about Vettel's reliability; maybe I should stop picking him for the win and he actually will!

I hope the race is as good next go around:tup:

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Maybe some of you should remove your anti-rosso glasses.

It doesn't matter if Alonso finished the race one second or sixteen seconds behind Button - he still finished behind him. If Alonso was as good as you're making him out to be, why did he hit Button in the first corner? Button certainly couldn't see him until it was too late because of the outboard mirrors. If Alonso is really that great, why couldn't he pass Felipe Massa? Why didn't he make the same strategy call as Jenson Button and come in early?

Maybe you need to remove your pro-Ferrari glasses.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If Alonso was as good as you're making him out to be, why did he hit Button in the first corner? Button certainly couldn't see him until it was too late because of the outboard mirrors.

Certainly? Alonso was in front of Button. Button could probably see more than Alonso.

If Alonso is really that great, why couldn't he pass Felipe Massa?

Maybe his tires were worn out? Massa didn't have to push as hard to get were he was, since he didn't spin out.

IWhy didn't he make the same strategy call as Jenson Button and come in early?

Because the Ferraris weren't rubbish on the intermediates.


You can take off your Button glasses now.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Alonso finished 16 seconds behind button. Certainly he lost a lot more time in the spin, passing slower cars, and defending against Lewis. No red tinted glasses here, just common sense. Maybe some of you should remove your anti-rosso glasses.

Wasn't there a safety car not long after the spin?

 

[Peter]

Ok, so i'm going to make a tread now, just letting you all know.

 

[NapoleonMikey]

Skip to 0:45 for the Button/Alonso/Schumacher incident.

If Button couldn't see Alonso then there is something wrong with his peripheral vision seeing as Buttons head was at the back wing of Alonso's car. Clearly if Alonso went wider he would have went into Schumacher. Button was behind Alonso and I'm sure he didn't know Schumacher was on the other side of Alonso leaving him no room to go wider.

So interludes sorry to say but it really doesn't look like Alonso hit Button. Alonso was half a car length ahead and obviously couldn't see Button and had Schumacher to deal with.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You can take off your Button glasses now.

My point isn't that I'm in rampant support of Button here, even if I'm known as a fan. Ferrari_Tifoso seems to be arguing that Fernando Alonso was the best driver in the race for no other reason than he was driving a Ferrari. Sure, he made up all those positions after getting turned around, but that doesn't make him the driver of the race. Button played a much better strategy and made option tyres last for fifty laps with lap times that were both fast and consistent. Kubica fended off both Ferraris for second in a car tat by rights shouldn't have been there. Hamilton pegged back a twenty-second gap in the space of ten laps and pulled off the most passing moves. Alonso might have carved his way through the backmarkers, but he was helped by other cars pitting and when he finally caught Massa, he couldn't get past despite Massa being all over the place and his defence against Hamilton was helped by the fact that their tyres were in roughly the same condition. He certainly wasn't the driver of the race.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So interludes sorry to say but it really doesn't look like Alonso hit Button. Alonso was half a car length ahead and obviously couldn't see Button and had Schumacher to deal with.

Yeah, twenty four cars all fighting for position at two hundred kilometres an hour going into a corner notorious for race-ending accidents, with a whole lot of spray thrown into the mix and wing mirrors that had been getting criticism all weekend because the drivers cannot see much out of them. And while we might be able to see a lot from an on-board angle, you have to remember that the driver himself is considerably lower than the on-board camera and that the driver cannot actually see the front of his car the way we can. Clearly Jenson Button's fault.

[/sarcasm]

You mention Schumacher; well, it's obvous what happened: Schumacher and Alonso were fighting for be the first into the corner. Schumacher started turning in and Alonso was forced to cut right or risk being taken out. Unfortunately, Jenson Button was already there and the two collected. Just because Button survived and Alonso got turned around does not make it Button's fault - considering that no action was taken against anyone for the spin, the race stewards evidently felt that it was a racing incident. And don't forget that they have a former racing driver advising them this year. Plus, if the FIA were favouring Ferrari the way everyone would have you believe, there would have been a penalty against Button. There wasn't. It was a racing incident, and Button was just fortunate enough to come away unscathed. Given the way he played his strategy card, it's impossible to say with any certainty that Alonso would have won the race if he hadn't been spun about.

 

[Alan_G]

Clearly it's just a racing incident.

Anyone who suggests Button could not see Alonso is wrong. There's no way Button would take that line and make those corrections approaching the apex had he thought a Ferrari was not on his left.

Clearly Alonso could not see Button. The worst option of all would be to just turn in on Button. Forget about Alonso concerned with Schumacher - Schumacher was always in a very compromised position on the outside. If Alonso knew Button had the inside, Alonso would have given a bit more space to Button, and Schumacher would have had to yield, thus losing out a couple of places.

 

[niky]

Button had the line, Alonso was being squeezed in by Schumacher... who had to push all he could to keep the position... and... of all people... Schumacher wouldn't have been able to see whether Button was there at all.

Racing incident.

Finis.

The fact that not even Alonso was ranting about it after the race suggests as much.

 

[Ferrari_Tifoso]

And Button backed off once it became apparent that Kubica couldn't catch him, and preserved his tyres for fifty laps. I also recall he didn't waste the entire of his race stuck behind a slower teammate, getting frustrated and complaining over RT, unable to get past even when baulked by a Lotus.

So he was faster when he needed to be and smarter. And daan's current avatar is Gilles Villeneuve in his Ferrari days.

You see, the thing about common sense is that it's just not that common.

Backed off? I don't think so. Once he inherited the lead his laps times stayed consistent and we're faster than when he was behind Vettel. He might not have been pushing 100%, but he certainly didn't "back off". And even if it got to the point in the race were Alonso and Button where fighting for the lead, Alonso would've had the edge since his car is faster than the Macs.

Proof: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/aus-race-history.pdf

Fact is Button's gamble to change tires paid off, and he has an excellent ability to drive consistent and preserver his tires, and the fact that the racing incident at turn one worked in his favor gave him the win. I'm not for one minute saying he doesn't deserve it. He lucked out on the gamble, but that doesn't mean he's not a deserving winner. But suggesting that he somehow "knew" this was going to work is ridiculous. He changed his tires because his car was rubbish on inters (his words).

Back to my original point, which is that if that Alonso had not spun at turn one, even if both Schumi and Button had gotten past him, he would've won the race.

Also, when did Alonso complain over the radio? It was Hamilton who berated his team on World live TV.

This is all I've heard Alonso say on the matter:

Q. Did you feel that you should have been let past Felipe, and did you ask the team if that was possible?

FA: No. I don't think so. We are racing also with your team-mate. This is the second race of the championship, so there is nothing you can do. Also, when I arrive behind Felipe my tyres were not in any more a good shape because I was pushing very hard at the beginning. I don't think at that time that I could do any more than that. I was more concentrating on Hamilton and Webber – who were coming behind, than attacking Felipe and Robert. I was super happy with fourth, so I stayed there.

And this is the team rule on the matter: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48088&PO=48088

You see, the thing about common sense is it doesn't account for people too biased to do simple math or see simple truths.

It doesn't matter if Alonso finished the race one second or sixteen seconds behind Button - he still finished behind him. If Alonso was as good as you're making him out to be, why did he hit Button in the first corner? Button certainly couldn't see him until it was too late because of the outboard mirrors. If Alonso is really that great, why couldn't he pass Felipe Massa? Why didn't he make the same strategy call as Jenson Button and come in early?

Maybe you need to remove your pro-Ferrari glasses.

Yeah, twenty four cars all fighting for position at two hundred kilometres an hour going into a corner notorious for race-ending accidents, with a whole lot of spray thrown into the mix and wing mirrors that had been getting criticism all weekend because the drivers cannot see much out of them. And while we might be able to see a lot from an on-board angle, you have to remember that the driver himself is considerably lower than the on-board camera and that the driver cannot actually see the front of his car the way we can. Clearly Jenson Button's fault.

[/sarcasm]

You mention Schumacher; well, it's obvous what happened: Schumacher and Alonso were fighting for be the first into the corner. Schumacher started turning in and Alonso was forced to cut right or risk being taken out. Unfortunately, Jenson Button was already there and the two collected. Just because Button survived and Alonso got turned around does not make it Button's fault - considering that no action was taken against anyone for the spin, the race stewards evidently felt that it was a racing incident. And don't forget that they have a former racing driver advising them this year. Plus, if the FIA were favouring Ferrari the way everyone would have you believe, there would have been a penalty against Button. There wasn't. It was a racing incident, and Button was just fortunate enough to come away unscathed. Given the way he played his strategy card, it's impossible to say with any certainty that Alonso would have won the race if he hadn't been spun about.

So first it was Alonso's fault, then after the video, it was a racing incident (which is what I've called it in the first place). Again, take off your Button glasses.

 

[zed300]

...Ferrari Fifoso.....................Alonso would've had the edge since his car is faster than the Macs.

Fastest Lap Times

2010 FORMULA 1 QANTAS AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX
Pos No Driver Team Lap Time Of Day Avg Speed Time
1 6 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 47 18:21:06 216.061 1:28.358
2 4 Nico Rosberg Mercedes GP 53 18:30:06 215.742 1:28.489
3 2 Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 47 18:21:05 215.700.... 1:28.506
4 3 Michael Schumacher Mercedes GP 58 18:38:29 214.058 1:29.185
5 9 Rubens Barrichello Williams-Cosworth 58 18:38:20 213.998 1:29.210
6 1 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 52 18:28:11 213.804.... 1:29.291
7 7 Felipe Massa Ferrari 52 18:28:31 213.216.... 1:29.537
8 11 Robert Kubica Renault 52 18:28:29 213.138 1:29.570
9 15 Vitantonio Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 55 18:33:48 212.865 1:29.685
10 8 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 47 18:21:01 212.812.... 1:29.707
11 17 Jaime Alguersuari STR-Ferrari 49 18:24:53 212.798 1:29.713
12 22 Pedro de la Rosa BMW Sauber-Ferrari 54 18:32:26 210.745 1:30.587
13 5 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 22 17:42:44 208.515 1:31.556
14 19 Heikki Kovalainen Lotus-Cosworth 52 18:32:09 203.878 1:33.638
15 24 Timo Glock Virgin-Cosworth 37 18:08:28 202.597 1:34.230
16 20 Karun Chandhok HRT-Cosworth 48 18:29:07 200.860 1:35.045
17 25 Lucas di Grassi Virgin-Cosworth 17 17:37:15 197.613 1:36.607
18 12 Vitaly Petrov Renault 6 17:17:16 185.110 1:43.132
19 14 Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 6 17:17:14 184.947 1:43.223
20 21 Bruno Senna HRT-Cosworth 4 17:13:52 129.626 2:27.276

I see no reason either of the Ferraris where going to beat the McLarens.

 

[J-PaP]

Fastest lap is no indicator which car is fastest over the course of a race otherwise accidents aside, the race should have finished in the order of fastest laps. Average lap time would (though such a statistic is not given) indicate which was the fastest car as it would at least eliminate the differential of starting further back in the pack.

I am fairly sure that if you dismissed the first lap of the race (so counted the race from Lap 2) you would find that Button and Alonso likely had a very similar average lap time over the course of the race. Though you also can consider the fact that Alonso had to overtake a lot more cars than button to make up positions thus some pace was lost doing this.

 

[H20HYBRID_GT]

I really think none of those incidents was anybody's fault, just bad luck.
Things like this happen in a heated race. Only thing I think Webber should have anticipated Alonso and Hamilton getting in 'trouble'... but it's not really his fault entirely.

Battle of the race was Alguersuari VS Schumacher for me tho, great driving!

Not a big fan of JB, but great driving (and strategy) there too and a well deserved win.👍

Hmm, too bad for Vettel, but maybe he'll learn eventually it's not all about raw speed, but also some tactics involved.
I know mechanical failure, but come on, how often did this happen already, leading the race with crazy speed and...- oops, oh, too bad, maybe next time.

Also, I vote for having all GPs in Melbourne, Sao Paulo, Montreal and Monaco in the future, cause all the other tracks (especially the newer ones) are boooring!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So first it was Alonso's fault, then after the video, it was a racing incident (which is what I've called it in the first place).

Why are you so desperate to prove that Alonso should have won the race? Calling me out on changing my opinion after viewing new evdience (which, I might add, is perfectly reasonable; a racing incident it might have been, but if I had to choose between Button and Alonso as being the one at fault, I would still choose Alonso) doesn't change the fact that Alonso was not the fastest man in the race and doesn't change the fact that he did not win the Grand Prix. Even if you can conclusively prove that Alonso should have won the race, it doesn't mean the results can be changed (because if they could, Vettel would have won in both Bahrain and Melbourne).

Alonso didn't win. He's obviously come to terms with that. Now you do, too.

 

[Anghammarad]

Yes, Button did a good job in nursing his car home with tha same set of tyres for 50 laps. But, as I recall, he changed them just two or three laps ahead of Kubica, Massa and Alonso. Yes he was faster than Kubica (who is in a Renault mind you) but I'm quite sure that had Alonso been in second he would have matched the pace of Button although I'm equally sure that he would not be able to catch him. For that the gap was too big when he'd made it through the field.

But why is it a fantastic achievement by Button to run in front with the same set of tyres for 50 laps and not by Alonso to make his way through more or less the whole field also without changing for 48 laps?

The incident in the first corner was just that, an incident. Things happen. No ones to blame. But please, credit where credit's due. Button drove a fantastic race. So did Alonso, and so did Kubica.

 

[J-PaP]

Alonso wanted in on the fun Hamilton had Friday night.

Also have to love Webber's remarks on the Hamilton incident

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/29/2858643.htm

Formula One driver Mark Webber has been accused of undermining Victoria's road safety campaign after he called Australia a "bloody nanny state" in the wake of Lewis Hamilton's hoon session in St Kilda.

Victoria Police said Webber "should know better" after he attacked Victoria's speeding and parking regulations and said he felt he needed to "read an instruction book" before getting out of bed.

Webber, who finished ninth in yesterday's Grand Prix at Albert Park, was speaking after F1 ace Hamilton had his car impounded after he was caught doing burnouts in the Melbourne bayside suburb of St Kilda on Friday night.

''It's a great country, but we've got to be responsible for our actions and it's certainly a bloody nanny state when it comes to what we can do. Lewis has found out very quickly," Webber said.

''I think we've got to read an instruction book when we get out of bed - what we can do and what we can't do ... put a yellow vest on and all that sort of stuff.

"It pisses me off coming back here, to be honest."

Deputy Police Commissioner Ken Lay says the state's road toll is distressingly high and Webber should know better.

"That's after a weekend [which left] six dead, four of them attributed to speeding," he said.

"It's really disappointing. Mark Webber's in a unique position where he's got the ability to influence our road users. He's missed an opportunity. He's probably undermined our message.

"Might I be so bold to say there's probably quite a few Webber fans still alive today because of the work we do," he added.

"Hopefully on reflection he'd wish he hadn't said it."

Webber's Red Bull team declined to comment when contacted by the ABC this morning but said the driver's original remarks had been made in a private conversation.

 

[zed300]

^^^^

Not the usual Friday night larrikins.

 

[Famine]

Backed off? I don't think so. Once he inherited the lead his laps times stayed consistent and we're faster than when he was behind Vettel. He might not have been pushing 100%, but he certainly didn't "back off". And even if it got to the point in the race were Alonso and Button where fighting for the lead, Alonso would've had the edge since his car is faster than the Macs.

Proof: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/aus-race-history.pdf

Interesting proof that Alonso was faster than either McLaren, by showing that both McLarens were faster than Alonso.

Jenson drove at the speed he was required to without wrecking the tyres he'd had on for 50 laps - an ability Hamilton apparently lacks. It's arse-on-fire or nothing for Hamilton.

Back to my original point, which is that if that Alonso had not spun at turn one, even if both Schumi and Button had gotten past him, he would've won the race.

And if my auntie had a wang she'd be my uncle.

Also, when did Alonso complain over the radio? It was Hamilton who berated his team on World live TV.

Three times he enquired why he was behind Massa. During the race.

You see, the thing about common sense is it doesn't account for people too biased to do simple math or see simple truths.

Ohhhhh dear. Now we're in the realm of insulting people who don't agree with you. You get one warning here. Stop it and read the AUP.

So first it was Alonso's fault, then after the video, it was a racing incident (which is what I've called it in the first place). Again, take off your Button glasses.

Who ever said it was Alonso's fault and not a racing incident? The original comment, from InvincibleGT, was that it was Button's fault:

He would've won if Button hadn't run into him.

Which was clearly tosh as Button didn't put himself in anyone's path.

 

[daan]

Back to my original point, which is that if that Alonso had not spun at turn one, [...] he would've won the race.

What about the fact that Massa was ahead of Alonso at the time Alonso spun? If any Ferrari should have won the race, it would have been Massa's.

even if both Schumi and Button had gotten past him

When exactly would Alonso have got back past Button, given that Button could lap faster?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Fastest lap is no indicator which car is fastest over the course of a race otherwise accidents aside, the race should have finished in the order of fastest laps. Average lap time would (though such a statistic is not given) indicate which was the fastest car as it would at least eliminate the differential of starting further back in the pack.

So um, average lap would be total time divided by number of laps, so the person who completed all the laps in the least amount of time would do best.

So ummm, that would be the race winner right?

And even if it got to the point in the race were Alonso and Button where fighting for the lead, Alonso would've had the edge since his car is faster than the Macs.
*snip*
and the fact that the racing incident at turn one worked in his favor gave him the win.
*snip*
Back to my original point, which is that if that Alonso had not spun at turn one, even if both Schumi and Button had gotten past him, he would've won the race.
*snip*
You see, the thing about common sense is it doesn't account for people too biased to do simple math or see simple truths.

So, everyone else lacks common sense but you have the ability to predict race results on the outcome of certain events. Even those that happened at the very beginning of the race.

Gotcha 👍

 

[J-PaP]

Fastest lap is no indicator which car is fastest over the course of a race otherwise accidents aside, the race should have finished in the order of fastest laps. Average lap time would (though such a statistic is not given) indicate which was the fastest car as it would at least eliminate the differential of starting further back in the pack.

I am fairly sure that if you dismissed the first lap of the race (so counted the race from Lap 2) you would find that Button and Alonso likely had a very similar average lap time over the course of the race. Though you also can consider the fact that Alonso had to overtake a lot more cars than button to make up positions thus some pace was lost doing this.

So um, average lap would be total time divided by number of laps, so the person who completed all the laps in the least amount of time would do best.

So ummm, that would be the race winner right?

As I stated, if you counted from the 2nd lap Alonso's and Button's average lap time would be a lot more similar than if you included the first lap.

Anybody have a figure of how far behind Button Alonso was at the end of lap one?

 

[daan]

Anybody have a figure of how far behind Button Alonso was at the end of lap one?

That's not really relevant as the safety car closed things up.

 

[J-PaP]

That's not really relevant as the safety car closed things up.

Was there just the one safety car? I can't remember now (mind you I was there). In that case how about counting from when we had a green flag again? Or better yet counting only "green laps" exclusive of lap one would better indicate average pace (it gets a bit complex though)

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Three times he enquired why he was behind Massa. During the race.

I don't remember that at all. I remember when he questioned his tire strategy and the comment on the gap to Hamilton.

 

[Famine]

If I recall correctly - and I don't have the race to play back any more to check - he said "Why am I being held up? Shouldn't I be ahead?" and the race engineer gave a glib response which involved lots of "we think"s. There was another occasion but, since it was 7am, I don't recall what was said as clearly.

 

[ExigeEvan]

As I stated, if you counted from the 2nd lap Alonso's and Button's average lap time would be a lot more similar than if you included the first lap.

Anybody have a figure of how far behind Button Alonso was at the end of lap one?

My issue was you made it sound like it was a worthwhile statistic by highlighting that it wasn't provided.

Was there just the one safety car? I can't remember now (mind you I was there). In that case how about counting from when we had a green flag again? Or better yet counting only "green laps" exclusive of lap one would better indicate average pace (it gets a bit complex though)

Regardless of complexity (we could ignore pitstops in/out laps, SC laps, going off the track; which you seem to forget that Button did, laps overtaking back markers, need I go on?), it just gets even more pointless.

 

[F1 fan]

Hmm, I disagree with the idea that just the Singapore incident lost Massa the WDC, there were many factors which affected both Hamilton and Massa's season, and it could have gone either way.
By the same line of thinking, Massa was almost gifted the WDC by the Spa penalty. For all we know, Massa's fuel hose incident would have happened anyway, which was the real killer for him in that race.

In the end, you cannot say any one factor led to whomever winning or losing the championship. Massa so easily deciding to blame it on that incident says it all, he could have also blamed it on the Ferrari engine at Hungary, the rubbish Ferrari pit-light system, etc, etc. But no, its easier to just blame the current scapegoat .

I'm aware that Massa's engine blew with three laps to go at hungary 2008. This gifted Kovalainen the win. I somehow doubt that the fuel hose incident would have happened, had Kimi not been waiting behind massa, and every other driver (bar 3 if i'm not mistaken) had dived into the pits. I know that later in the same race, coulthard almost had the same problem, not to mention Christian Albers had a similar accident at Magny Cours in 2007. But I think that the pressure for everything to go right is what caused the incident.

Fair enough, I might have been wrong about alonso "blanking" massa at Bahrain in Qualifying. I haven't had a second chance to see it, as I only have access to the internet at the library (which blocks youtube) and I don't have a vhs or any other recording system.

However, I'm not just some random Alonso hater. But I challenge anyone on here to correctly justify what he did in Hungary 07. And no, waiting for clear space, despite the team telling you to go, and screwing up you're team mate's last lap at qualifying cannot be justified purely by trying to create space. And it is not good behavior from a double world champion.

And I'm not a fan of Hamilton either. But there have been times when Alonso has acted like a child.

And to prove that I don't think that everything he does is wrong, I noticed in practice at Albert park that he had laps ruined repeatedly by traffic. And i don't think he had anything to do with singapore 08. I was just saying that if I was massa, I wouldn't have been as mature about the situation, regardless of who was to blame.

In hindsight, massa lost out on 10 points, when alonso profited (boosted by some cheating done by flavio, pat and nelson) which would have been more than enough for the WDC regardless of what happened at spa. I'm not saying that Alonso cost him the championship, but in hindsight it could seem that way. Albeit, not deliberately.