2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

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That's an excellent argument.

Or it would be if it actually had anything to do with the way the front-running teams selected their drivers. They don't choose drivers based on their nationality or their commercial appeal. They pick the best driver available, based on their racecraft - which is not exclusively limited to their results.

Hence Maldonado over Hulkenburg?
 
KK was beside/overlapping Hamilton, not behind him. I'm not arguing his rights; I am arguing his judgment. No matter what he said post-race, he was clearly trying to pass.

He was setting Hamilton up to take the slower line in the turn so that KK would have the advantage to pass at the next corner. Hamilton knew this and tried to shut the door to stop KK for that specific reason. Unfortunately you can only shut the door on a driver before they will decide if they would rather go off track and crash or leave it to Hamilton to decide whether he should give him space to be side by side or risk the chance of taking one, the other or both of them out, unfortunately it didn't work out for Hamilton. That is why he took full blame for it and that is why Hamilton has had a lot of incidents with other drivers. It's his aggressive style he always bets that the other driver is going to give in and give way and most often than not it works but unfortunately it hasn't been working out for him lately. With Button it mostly works 'cuz he knows Button won't take him out but with other opponents it's a hit or miss kinda thing.:sly: Pun intended.:dopey:
 
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If a driver has track position, he has a right to defend that track position, even if the other car is much faster. Or would you prefer a Formula 1 where drivers who have not pitted are shown the blue flag when a driver who has pitted it behind them, regardless of their actual track position, like in DTM?

If you had watched the replays from Spa as extensively as you claim, you would have noticed that Kamui Kobayashi was as far over as he could manage without going off the circuit. What was he supposed to do when Hamilton cut back across in front of him? Drive off the circuit? Come to a complete stop on the track? Kobayashi did everything right in that situation. Hamilton even admitted fault.

Interesting you say that about DTM, I never knew of this dislike of that rule when I started to watch DTM. I always thought it added to the racing, to eliminate the risk of what happened to Hamilton at Spa and, robbed isn't quite the right word, but deprived us of a different outcome. Im not saying that Kobayashi is at fault, by no means. Kamui is one of my favorite drivers for this reason, he'll put a move on anyone, and isn't afraid of punching above his weight.
 
From my marshaling, I have learned that a blue flag is just an advisory, even in FIA events. This means that if you see it, you can decide whether to act or not. A driver could go the whole race being shown the blue flag if their pace is good enough.
 
KK was beside/overlapping Hamilton, not behind him. I'm not arguing his rights; I am arguing his judgment. No matter what he said post-race, he was clearly trying to pass.

Whether Kobayashi was trying to pass or not is irrelevant. He had every right to be on the outside of Lewis heading into the corner. Hamilton later admitted that he didn't even see Kobayashi. Instead of checking his mirror Lewis assumed that he had cleared Kobayashi. Which was a big mistake that cost him a potential podium finish.

Hence Maldonado over Hulkenburg?

Williams is not a front-running team. What interludes said remains true.
 
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KK was beside/overlapping Hamilton, not behind him. I'm not arguing his rights; I am arguing his judgment. No matter what he said post-race, he was clearly trying to pass.
For someone who claims to have watched the replay over and over again, you really weren't paying attention. Hamilton was passing Kobayashi, not the other way around. Hamilton is the one who screwed up; he needlessly went left when he should have been aiming for the apex of the first corner in Les Combes. If anybody's judgement is in question, it's Hamilton's. He clearly thought he was past Kobayashi when he was not, and he did not need to cut left when he did. As the attacking driver, the burden of responsibility rested with him - and Hamilton accepted fault. Everyone in the world agrees that the accident between Hamilton and Kobayashi was Hamilton's fault. Everyone, that is, except you.

You're apparently one of those rampant Hamilton fans who believes he can do no wrong.

Hence Maldonado over Hulkenburg?
Most of the drivers on the grid bring some kind of sponsorship to their teams. Even Fernando Alonso does it - Santander's money helped get him into Ferrari. Gone are the days when someone who fancied himself as a racing driver could buy a seat; the structure of feeder series and the demand for a superlicence to compete in Formula 1 means that drivers need to have a degree of talent before they are even considered for a drive, regardless of how much money they can bring to a team.

Nico Hulkenberg was given every opportunity to keep his seat with Williams. They asked him to find some sponsors for 2011 because they knew they were losing Philips, McGregor, AirAsia and RBS - four of their biggest sponsors. They were staring down the barrel of serious financial difficulties (and given the fact that they are in their worst season to date, Williams without PDVSA money could fold by the end of the year). Hulkenberg refused to find sponsors when, ironically, he would not have had much difficulty given his 2010 season and credentials as GP2 champion. And yet, he refused to find them. It was as if he demanded a seat on the basis of his ability alone, which is a privelige afforded onto to the best - and Nico Hulkenberg was not in that category. Nico Hulkenberg has no-one to blame for his failure to secure a racing seat but himself. Even if he was the most talented driver on the grid, no team in their right mind would want to deal with his arrogant attitude. Especially coming from a rookie whose 2010 season was underwhelming.

So if you were in Williams' position, who would you take? A GP2 champion who refuses to find sponsors at a time when you need them the most, or a GP2 champion who can brings millions of badly-needed dollars into the team?
 
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From my marshaling, I have learned that a blue flag is just an advisory, even in FIA events. This means that if you see it, you can decide whether to act or not. A driver could go the whole race being shown the blue flag if their pace is good enough.

Except in Formula 1 where the rules state that I you don't yield after a certain amount of time you will be penalised. Formula 1 is the only sport that does this. I didn't realise it until this years Le Mans when they mentioned it.
 
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Yup, passing 3 blue flags results in a penalty for the offending driver in F1. This is different to Le Mans and endurance racing - where lapping of cars is so frequent it would be quite ridiculous to penalise all of the lapped cars.
 
For someone who claims to have watched the replay over and over again, you really weren't paying attention. Hamilton was passing Kobayashi, not the other way around. Hamilton is the one who screwed up; he needlessly went left when he should have been aiming for the apex of the first corner in Les Combes. If anybody's judgement is in question, it's Hamilton's. He clearly thought he was past Kobayashi when he was not, and he did not need to cut left when he did. As the attacking driver, the burden of responsibility rested with him - and Hamilton accepted fault. Everyone in the world agrees that the accident between Hamilton and Kobayashi was Hamilton's fault. Everyone, that is, except you.

You're apparently one of those rampant Hamilton fans who believes he can do no wrong.

For the record, I'm no Hamilton fanboy. He drives with more balls than sense. Button's game is more my taste, followed at this point by some sequence of Alonso's and Vettel's.

That said, look at the video again. The following refers to the BBC HD, which once can obtain via BitTorrent. Timings are in reference to the start of the race broadcast, always marked by the "speeding glowworms" intro.

At 32:27, Lewis takes the apex of La Source. He's about a car length and a half behind KK.

At 32:34, Lewis has moved out, to the left, and is beside KK approaching Eau Rouge.

At 32:38, Hamilton has completed the pass, and takes the first apex of the Eau Rouge complex with KK half a car-length behind.

At 32:44, Hamilton hits the DRS zone with about a car-length and a half, maybe two car lengths on Kobayashi.

At 32:48, Hamilton moves to driver right, for no obvious reason because it wasn't dictated by the racing line. Kobayashi also moves to driver right, to slot in behind Lewis and keep the McLaren's slipstream. Hamilton's DRS is open; Kobayashi's is closed. Martin Brundle, doing the BBC commentary, notes that Hamilton's DRS is open, legally, because he's within a second of someone Brundle never got around to specifying because ...

At 32:50, Kobayashi moves, hard, to driver left. My read, based on his actions at 32:48 and the lack of any immediate action by Hamilton, is he's taking an outside line to make a move on Hamilton into Les Combes.

At 32:53, Hamilton is easing to driver left, apparently in preparation for turn-in for the initial right-hander at Les Combes. Both drivers appear be looking to their right, Kobayashi somewhat more so, as one would expect given the relative positions of the two cars on the track.

At 32:54, the two cars come together. Hamilton is pitched left, into the trackside advertising and the barriers.

I would submit the above sequence of events is evidence that 1). Hamilton completed a pass of Kobayashi between La Source and Eau Rouge; 2). He entered the DRS zone with a lead and opened his DRS; 3). Kobayashi attempted a return pass at the approach to Les Combes 12 seconds after watching Hamilton blow by him; 4) an accident resulted because Hamilton wasn't watching for a much-slower Sauber on much-older tires to attempt an outside move on him.

Hamilton was not at the approach to Les Combes the "attacking driver"; Kobayashi was. Post-race comments by both drivers I thought were more political than accurate. Martin Whitmarsh, however, was very firm in telling the BBC he thought Kobayashi was at fault.

The criticism I'm make of Kobayashi in connection with this particular incident is the same one I'd make of Hamilton in general: more balls than sense.

As for the Maldonado/Hulkenberg/Alonso discussion, you make my point for me: Merely being the quickest driver is not enough.
 
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I could've sworn this was the Monza thread.

Aside from Lap 1, Vettel's pass of Alonso and the McLaren duel with Schumi, Monza didn't provide much to talk about. Hence a lot of discussion about driver changes and Ferrari drawing a curtain on the 2011 season. The KK stuff is reaction to folks above saying KK should get Massa's drive. Which isn't going to happen, I argue, because KK rates higher with fans than he does with non-Sauber teams and because we know who's being sized up long-term for a top seat (Di Resta, Perez, the RBR juniors and, from GP2, Grosjean and Bianchi) and KK's name isn't on that list.
 
Hamilton was not at the approach to Les Combes the "attacking driver"; Kobayashi was. Post-race comments by both drivers I thought were more political than accurate. Martin Whitmarsh, however, was very firm in telling the BBC he thought Kobayashi was at fault.

Whitmarsh was claiming that Kobayashi hit Hamilton from behind (completely untrue). Despite watching the replay that clearly showed the drivers nearly side-by-side going into the braking zone with Hamilton unexpectedly moving to the left. It's clear that Whitmarsh was just trying to take up for his driver who has been getting a lot of heat this season.

Hamilton, unlike Whitemarsh, took 100% blame for the accident for the simple fact that he didn't see Kobayashi. Is it not Hamilton's responsibility to know where Kobayashi is in that situation? I'd say it is. But you're giving him a pass for some odd reason. Had Hamilton checked his mirror like he should have, he would have taken a tighter line into the corner giving Kobayashi and himself plenty of room. Meaning no accident would have occurred.
 
At 32:44, Hamilton hits the DRS zone with about a car-length and a half, maybe two car lengths on Kobayashi.

At 32:48, Hamilton moves to driver right, for no obvious reason because it wasn't dictated by the racing line. Kobayashi also moves to driver right, to slot in behind Lewis and keep the McLaren's slipstream. Hamilton's DRS is open; Kobayashi's is closed. Martin Brundle, doing the BBC commentary, notes that Hamilton's DRS is open, legally, because he's within a second of someone Brundle never got around to specifying because ...

I dont want get into your dispute about who was at fault, just wanna comment about a confusion I see about DRS rules, specially with TV commentators (Brundle failed to explain, as did Brazilian TV commentators I was watching to).

The DRS rule is simple. The detection point alone dictates wheter you may/may not open it the next activation zone. What happens in between doesnt matter. The DRS detection point in Spa was some way betwen La Source and Eau Rouge.

Hamilton was less than 1 second behind KK at the detection point (probably he was almost side by side). Even though he passed KK before the activation zone, he could still use it for that lap because he was behind on the detection point.
 
I dont want get into your dispute about who was at fault, just wanna comment about a confusion I see about DRS rules, specially with TV commentators (Brundle failed to explain, as did Brazilian TV commentators I was watching to).

The DRS rule is simple. The detection point alone dictates wheter you may/may not open it the next activation zone. What happens in between doesnt matter. The DRS detection point in Spa was some way betwen La Source and Eau Rouge.

Hamilton was less than 1 second behind KK at the detection point (probably he was almost side by side). Even though he passed KK before the activation zone, he could still use it for that lap because he was behind on the detection point.

I don't have the video near to hand at the moment (it's on a different computer) but I suspect you're right that Hamilton was still behind KK in the detection zone. If memory serves he completed the pass near the top of the non-F1 starting grid on the Eau Rouge side of La Source. Brundle was about to explain, but kinda got sidetracked by the events unfolding on the screen in front of him and so never completed his original thought. I'm just bemused that with DRS open Hamilton didn't pull away from KK as quickly as he'd been able to pull away from the other drivers he'd blown by without the help of DRS the lap before. He blamed the car after, but there's nothing to that based on his own performance in the race up to lap 13 and on Button's performance throughout. I suspect Hamilton was distracted (making adjustments on the wheel?) and just wound up dawdling.

Re the contact point, it was either KK's front-right tire touching Hamilton's left-rear tire, or KK's front-right making contact with Hamilton's sidepod. The two cars did not get completely side-by-side.

I'm not giving Hamilton a pass for sloppy driving. His move right as he want up the Kemmel Straight was unnecessary and, if done to break the tow to KK, ineffective. By moving right, he opened the door for KK to try an outside move. That said, KK to me bears the larger share of fault. Contra interludes, this was two passes, one by Hamilton and then one a considerable length of time (by F1 standards) later by KK. Kobayashi as the overtaking driver at Les Combes had the responsibility to keep it safe. Hamilton didn't check his mirrors but Kobayashi didn't think through the possibility of the door getting closed on him, or, obviously, give any mind to the simple fact a Sauber on old softs was not going to stay long in front of a McLaren on new softs. His pass attempt amounted to pointless bravado.
 
I'm not giving Hamilton a pass for sloppy driving. His move right as he want up the Kemmel Straight was unnecessary and, if done to break the tow to KK, ineffective. By moving right, he opened the door for KK to try an outside move. That said, KK to me bears the larger share of fault. Contra interludes, this was two passes, one by Hamilton and then one a considerable length of time (by F1 standards) later by KK. Kobayashi as the overtaking driver at Les Combes had the responsibility to keep it safe. Hamilton didn't check his mirrors but Kobayashi didn't think through the possibility of the door getting closed on him, or, obviously, give any mind to the simple fact a Sauber on old softs was not going to stay long in front of a McLaren on new softs. His pass attempt amounted to pointless bravado.

If you are considering two passes, and Hamilton moved right during the straight, then moved left again to take the corner, then it's blocking. No fault on KK.
 
We have next week's GP thread up already, and you guys are talking about a crash at Spa in the Italian GP thread. :dopey:

Closing this one now.
 
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