2011 Formula 1 Gran Premio Santander d'Italia

[tribolik]

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/173052/1/ferrari_stops_development_switches_focus_to_f1_2012.html

Ferrari makes it official, focusing on 2012 now. Hopefully McLaren will do the same...

Why would McLaren do that? they can still win the constructers unlike Ferrari...

 

[YellowG1]

Why would McLaren do that? they can still win the constructers unlike Ferrari...

I dunno... 125 points is a pretty big margin to overcome, even if Webber is struggling, when Vettel is winning virtually all the races.

 

[Peter.]

The Luizzi incident was nothing more than a stupid attempt from his part to out pace his team mate...

Really? I'm sorry, but that was just straight up ignorant.

Liuzzi got a great start, was pushed off track by the Lotus, got back on track pretty late for braking, bumped wheels Kobayashi, and fishtailed it onto the grass and really had no control over the car once it was on the grass. Had nothing to do with Ricciardo, who he has been consistently outpacing at every race with the exception of Monza.

Why would McLaren do that? they can still win the constructers unlike Ferrari...

To get a step ahead of Red Bull, who hods all the cards right now. They should use their superior budget, and overall staff, and focus on getting the best out of a new year and championship, 2011 is a lost cause, with Vettel further increasing his gap race after race. Winning the championship is improbable.

 

[Peter.]

Double post, begging your pardon.

 

[tribolik]

Double post, begging your pardon.

Really? I'm sorry, but that was just straight up ignorant. >>> Kidding

It might sound ignorant to you (on the Luizzi crash) but its my believe that he didnt like to be out qualified by his new team mate and went all out on the start.... but the thing is will never know what was going on in his head... I see now (after being insulted) that I should have put an IMO on post but failed to do so...

Really? I'm sorry, but that was just straight up ignorant.

Liuzzi got a great start, was pushed off track by the Lotus, got back on track pretty late for braking, bumped wheels Kobayashi, and fishtailed it onto the grass and really had no control over the car once it was on the grass. Had nothing to do with Ricciardo, who he has been consistently outpacing at every race with the exception of Monza.



To get a step ahead of Red Bull, who hods all the cards right now. They should use their superior budget, and overall staff, and focus on getting the best out of a new year and championship, 2011 is a lost cause, with Vettel further increasing his gap race after race. Winning the championship is improbable.

I bet that they will be a good step ahead of Red Bull if they win the constructors. Win - Money - Better car.

 

[Peter.]

The amount of money gained from winning the constructors championship is not that much. And since when does More money=Better car? It's far from being that simple, ever heard of Toyota?

Dumping millions more into this year's car will put them at a handicap for 2012, insult to injury, if they don't succeed then it would all have been in vein and they would be a step behind in 2012.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

More money might not guarantee a faster car - but it does guarantee the potential to develop a faster car. The more money you have, the more you can spend on development.

 

[tribolik]

The amount of money gained from winning the constructors championship is not that much. And since when does More money=Better car? It's far from being that simple, ever heard of Toyota?

Dumping millions more into this year's car will put them at a handicap for 2012, insult to injury, if they don't succeed then it would all have been in vein and they would be a step behind in 2012.

Toyota had a good car... but not very good drivers...

If McLaren still has a chance to win the constructors they shouldnt stop trying (unlike Mercedes and Ferrari that already claimed they will now focus on 2012) also because of their sponsors... If you were their sponsor and they still had a chance of winning would you be happy to learn that they would stop trying... I realy dont think that they can stop just yet...

 

[Peter.]

Toyota had a good car... but not very good drivers...

If McLaren still has a chance to win the constructors they shouldnt stop trying (unlike Mercedes and Ferrari that already claimed they will now focus on 2012) also because of their sponsors... If you were their sponsor and they still had a chance of winning would you be happy to learn that they would stop trying... I realy dont think that they can stop just yet...

First of all, Toyota's drivers weren't the best F1 had to deliver, but they were pretty decent drivers. They pretty much did what the car ought to have been doing throughout the years.

Secondly, McLarne has a chance, yes, to win the constructors championship, but the odds are stacked against them. The leading team has the best car, and apart from a few odd poor results from Webber, Mark will always bring home whatever points Vettel left behind. Plus, they are quite far behind anyway, chances are they won't be able to out score Red Bull at any other race this season.

Secondly, regarding sponsors, they'd much rather see a team just run along for the rest of the season, to come back and become race winners and championship contenders next. You have to think long term, what will serve them better over the long term? Focus 100% on this almost wrapped up championship, lose this one, then be a step behind next year, lose that one as well, then what are you going to do? How about, nevermind this one, come back and win the title next year, and become the team to beat? Sounds good to me.

 

[tribolik]

First of all, Toyota's drivers weren't the best F1 had to deliver, but they were pretty decent drivers. They pretty much did what the car ought to have been doing throughout the years.

Secondly, McLarne has a chance, yes, to win the constructors championship, but the odds are stacked against them. The leading team has the best car, and apart from a few odd poor results from Webber, Mark will always bring home whatever points Vettel left behind. Plus, they are quite far behind anyway, chances are they won't be able to out score Red Bull at any other race this season.

Secondly, regarding sponsors, they'd much rather see a team just run along for the rest of the season, to come back and become race winners and championship contenders next. You have to think long term, what will serve them better over the long term? Focus 100% on this almost wrapped up championship, lose this one, then be a step behind next year, lose that one as well, then what are you going to do? How about, nevermind this one, come back and win the title next year, and become the team to beat? Sounds good to me.

Lets hope for the sake of sport, their sponsors and the people that love and watch every pratice, qualy and race session (like me) that it doesnt sound good to them... the more Races Vettel and Red bull keep winning the less chance any other team will have to turn the tables (much like it happen with Shumacker and Ferrari) IMO (maybe straight up ignorante but even ignorante people are entitled to their opinion)

 

[niky]

Sponsors don't like teams that give up on races or appear to give up on races. Vodaphone sponsors some pretty high profile racing teams, and that sponsorship carries with it the expectation that your team will do good.

You want money to fund development, you give results. If not, start shopping around for drivers who bring in sponsors, no matter how well or how badly they do.

 

[Ardius]

Lets hope for the sake of sport, their sponsors and the people that love and watch every pratice, qualy and race session (like me) that it doesnt sound good to them... the more Races Vettel and Red bull keep winning the less chance any other team will have to turn the tables (much like it happen with Shumacker and Ferrari) IMO (maybe straight up ignorante but even ignorante people are entitled to their opinion)

All the teams survived ok from 2004, and this season is nothing like 2004.

Just because one team wins everything in one year, doesn't automatically mean all top sponsorship goes to that team. True the sponsors want success, but they are also here for exposure and even HRT gives great brand exposure - much greater than any other motorsport.
Not to mention that some sponsorship is brought in by particular drivers, some sponsorship is related to the engine the team runs, etc.

Vodafone, Santander, Mobil1 and Shell are all on the McLarens and Ferraris for different reasons. But Vodafone and Santander are there because these teams are fighting for wins with Red Bull. There is still every chance they could be fighting with them next year again.

The only time major sponsors start jumping ship is when your team starts really plummeting down the championship..e.g. Williams. Though even they had significant sponsorship from RBS for ages. But the fact they struggled to replace RBS says a lot.

Its also worth pointing out that sponsors aren't morons. They know that F1 can change drastically year to year - it could be that Red Bull don't design a competitive car next year, chances are they will but its by no means certain.

 

[tribolik]

All the teams survived ok from 2004, and this season is nothing like 2004.

Just because one team wins everything in one year, doesn't automatically mean all top sponsorship goes to that team. True the sponsors want success, but they are also here for exposure and even HRT gives great brand exposure - much greater than any other motorsport.
Not to mention that some sponsorship is brought in by particular drivers, some sponsorship is related to the engine the team runs, etc.

Vodafone, Santander, Mobil1 and Shell are all on the McLarens and Ferraris for different reasons. But Vodafone and Santander are there because these teams are fighting for wins with Red Bull. There is still every chance they could be fighting with them next year again.

The only time major sponsors start jumping ship is when your team starts really plummeting down the championship..e.g. Williams. Though even they had significant sponsorship from RBS for ages. But the fact they struggled to replace RBS says a lot.

Its also worth pointing out that sponsors aren't morons. They know that F1 can change drastically year to year - it could be that Red Bull don't design a competitive car next year, chances are they will but its by no means certain.

If McLaren anounces (like mercedes and Ferrari) that they will stop the development of their car... ad focus on next years car , the championship will loose a lot of interest... IMO.
And then the results will become more predictable than they allready are... basicly the races will loose alot of interest and I might stop watching all sessions and maybe even the races itself and I wounder if I will be the only one... To me it doesnt sound like a very good deal, again IMO... at least not just yet... there is still a third of the championship left. And with mid season testing over what better way to keep developing concepts and testing them? Im not saying Im right, Im just saying that it just sounds better to me if they keep developing the car.

 

[C Ronaldo 7]

I personally dont see the point of developing the car further for 2011, the title is almost wrapped up and it would be a waste of time. That's why I think teams like Ferrari are doing the right thing. McLaren should too very soon.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Just because one team wins everything in one year, doesn't automatically mean all top sponsorship goes to that team. True the sponsors want success, but they are also here for exposure and even HRT gives great brand exposure - much greater than any other motorsport.

If HRT gives good brand exposure, why are they running what advertising types would call a house ad ("This is a cool spot") on their cars' tail fins?

 

[Ardius]

If McLaren anounces (like mercedes and Ferrari) that they will stop the development of their car... ad focus on next years car , the championship will loose a lot of interest... IMO.
And then the results will become more predictable than they allready are... basicly the races will loose alot of interest and I might stop watching all sessions and maybe even the races itself and I wounder if I will be the only one... To me it doesnt sound like a very good deal, again IMO... at least not just yet... there is still a third of the championship left. And with mid season testing over what better way to keep developing concepts and testing them? Im not saying Im right, Im just saying that it just sounds better to me if they keep developing the car.

Bearing in mind everyone does at least start initial designs for 2012 in the early summer months..including HRT up to Red Bull. The point is whether the teams put their full resources one way or the other. Ideally if you are in the title fight, you want 50/50 resources on the current year and next year. But if you are Ferrari with little to no chance of improving your constructors position, then its only logical to focus resources on the next year to try and steal a march on the front-runners.

You have to also remember that the base-designs for 2012 must be finished by December so that the manufacture and construction of the parts can be started, crash testing carried out and the upgrade and development of the car can be started. So no team will commit all their resources to 2011 right till the end of the season, only to then switch to next year's car as it would be far too late.

Would a sponsor prefer a team that suggested they had put all their resources into an unsuccessful season and ignored the next season till the very end or a team that has suggested it will cut its losses and attempt to do better next year?
Personally if I was a sponsor, I'd be worried that McLaren or Ferrari had not only screwed up 2011 but also 2012 if they didn't announce a switch in focus when it became clear their title challenge was pretty unlikely.

If HRT gives good brand exposure, why are they running what advertising types would call a house ad ("This is a cool spot") on their cars' tail fins?

Because they have somewhat failed to find much major sponsorship beyond their pay drivers.
Whether that is due to results, their potential future, their work trying to find sponsors (or lack of) or simply luck - a sticker on a HRT will gain far more exposure than the championship winning Honda in the BTCC or even Dario Franchitti's car in Indycar.

I did not say F1 exposure guarantees sponsorship. But there is an element of simply being in F1 attracts interest due to its exposure.

Personally I'd say that HRT's uncertain future and constant change in ownership has made it difficult to really convince a major sponsor to come onboard. Their results haven't been terrible relative to what has been going on, they have at least stayed roughly where they started (which is a feat in itself), but there has been no sign yet of significant progress in the future - until this has been shown I think they will continue to struggle to find people to part with their money. Unfortunately, money is a very handy way of creating progress..so a catch 22.
But its not just results which have stopped HRT getting the sponsorship. Virgin and Lotus have similarly not had amazing results but both have gained sponsorship for various reasons. Lotus due to Fernandes' many companies and their relationships and Virgin has secured several deals of varying size, from investment from Marussia to short-term deals advertising Cars 2.

 

[tribolik]

I understand perfectly what you are saying and you might be right but if that would happen every year? one team being superior for most of the season and all others dropping out of developing the cars with one third of the championship left... F1 would become a bit boring and the countries with the last races on the calendar would probably start re-thinking their involment with F1... And in a such competive sport with millions involved in sponsors, prizes and salaries to me it doesnt make much sence for a team with chances of winning the championship to back out just because the odds seem to be better for the year after...

 

[Ardius]

But thats the point - it doesn't happen every year. Even during the Ferrari domination years they did have challengers for the title, McLaren, Williams, BAR and Renault all at various points from 2000-2004 were close to Ferrari. The reason Ferrari dominated was that the other teams were not close enough and lacked the full package (McLaren lacked reliability, Williams messed up strategies and had inconsistent drivers, Renault and BAR lacked the speed). As soon as one team finally got the full package sorted, they managed to fight and beat Ferrari (Renault 2005).

As David Coulthard frequently likes to say - past success is no guarantee of future success.

I think you are massively over-reacting to fairly minor statment by Ferrari. Focusing on 2012 now (August/September) is hardly a shocking decision considering they really need to finish the core design work in a few months time. I doubt Santander are going to be jumping ship.
Chances are Red Bull are leaning more towards 2012 now too, considering their advantage at this stage.

 

[tribolik]

But thats the point - it doesn't happen every year. Even during the Ferrari domination years they did have challengers for the title, McLaren, Williams, BAR and Renault all at various points from 2000-2004 were close to Ferrari. The reason Ferrari dominated was that they were not close enough and lacked the full package. As soon as one team finally got the full package sorted, they managed to fight and beat Ferrari (Renault 2005).

And they had the only driver IMO who could stand up to Shummacker... even though I dont like Alonso very much (is personality - I like to see him race though) Ive got to hand it to him...

 

[Ardius]

Debatable - Raikkonen and Montoya both had chances but either lacked consistencey or car reliability to get the job done in the end.

Some would also say that Button in 2004 with a faster car may well have been a title contender.

 

[tribolik]

Debatable - Raikkonen and Montoya both had chances but either lacked consistencey or car reliability to get the job done in the end.

Some would also say that Button in 2004 with a faster car may well have been a title contender.

Ill have to agree on Button but Raikkonen wasnt all that consistent and Montoya he is more of a crash test driver than a race driver IMO (even in Nascar) kidding

 

[zippy_the_cat]

Personally I'd say that HRT's uncertain future and constant change in ownership has made it difficult to really convince a major sponsor to come onboard. Their results haven't been terrible relative to what has been going on, they have at least stayed roughly where they started (which is a feat in itself), but there has been no sign yet of significant progress in the future - until this has been shown I think they will continue to struggle to find people to part with their money. Unfortunately, money is a very handy way of creating progress..so a catch 22.

Agreed in part, and I'd add that for a sponsor all the exposure they'd get right now on the side of an HRT is negative ... the car struggling to even make the 107 percent cutoff in Q1, and then appearing on TV in the race mainly when the team has to retire a car for mechanical issues. I regard HRT as a clown show, one to draw the curtain on sooner rather than later.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

And brake testing Liuzzi at Monza? So Liuzzi was in the right to be coming flying in trying to out-brake half the field? Personally I think too many F1 journalists have favouritism for Liuzzi as I can't explain the conclusions they come to sometimes like this. Anyone who can watch a video could surely see Kobayashi brake-tested no one at Monza...its called "turn 1"..you know, where people brake a lot to avoid each other?

Like I said, it was Autosport's assessment, not mine. I've watched video of the start several times now and my take is that it was all down to Liuzzi driving like a donkey -- put a wheel off like Fernando forgetting that he lacks Fernando's talent. The Autosport writer (Mark Hughes) did however speculate that the dust kicked up by Fernando's brief off "unsighted" or spooked Kobayashi and caused him to "back off."

That said, the Planet-F1 people were very harsh on KK after the race at Spa. To give you a flavor, here's their "Teammate Wars" sum-up:

Sauber
Season: Perez 5 Kobayashi 7
Race: Kobayashi
There's an old Jasper Carrott monologue (and by definition, that's very old) where he's talking about his aged mother-in-law driving around erratically at 20mph in a Morris Minor and turning left and right when she feels like it: "The funny thing is, she's never been involved in an accident...no...but she's seen hundreds." It's the same for KK - though for some reason Sergio Perez tried to join in the fun in Belgium. After the race Perez said he shouldn't have got a drive-through penalty from the stewards and the accident with Buemi wasn't his fault. Surely he should understand that if you get a penalty from the stewards you are obliged to go on Twitter and say it's 100% your fault. Arguing with them? Why, sir, that's heresy.

I also read the driver-and-team quotes ESPN-UK posts after each race and several times have noted adverse comment there about Kobayashi. My own view of the KK/Lewis incident at Spa was that it was 100 percent KK's fault -- given Sauber's tire strategy and overall pace, he had about as much business going back at McLaren as an HRT would have in going back at a Red Bull; even had he pulled it off he wouldn't have been able to hold the place after the next DRS zone.

Assessments of KK's racecraft aside, there's also no commercial reason for one of the top teams to put a Japanese driver in their car given the supposed declining interest in F1 specifically and cars in general in Japan. For the above reasons, he's not going to get a top drive.

 

[Tesla]

Assessments of KK's racecraft aside, there's also no commercial reason for one of the top teams to put a Japanese driver in their car given the supposed declining interest in F1 specifically and cars in general in Japan. For the above reasons, he's not going to get a top drive.

What does a driver's nationality have to do with their chances at getting a place in a top team? If we had the next Senna/Prost/Schumacher come from a developing country where motorsport is very probably (I have no idea, just an educated assumption) unknown, would they not get a seat because it wouldn't be commercially viable for them? Even if that driver would be able to win race every weekend in a car that might not be the best on the grid?

 

[Ardius]

I also read the driver-and-team quotes ESPN-UK posts after each race and several times have noted adverse comment there about Kobayashi. My own view of the KK/Lewis incident at Spa was that it was 100 percent KK's fault -- given Sauber's tire strategy and overall pace, he had about as much business going back at McLaren as an HRT would have in going back at a Red Bull; even had he pulled it off he wouldn't have been able to hold the place after the next DRS zone.

Assessments of KK's racecraft aside, there's also no commercial reason for one of the top teams to put a Japanese driver in their car given the supposed declining interest in F1 specifically and cars in general in Japan. For the above reasons, he's not going to get a top drive.

Not this again, explain to me why Hamilton has a right to not pick a clear line into a corner and drift from one to the other? Why if Kobayashi is carrying more speed should he avoid at all costs overtaking Lewis? Why should a Sauber not try to attack a McLaren?
Not to mention Kobayashi even said he wasn't trying to overtake Lewis as he knew he wouldn't have been able to fight for long.
Plus Lewis has already admitted fault for the accident and the stewards did not take any action against Kobayashi.

As Tesla said, I don't see what the economic situation in Japan has to do with him getting a top seat in F1.

 

[astrosdude91]

Assessments of KK's racecraft aside, there's also no commercial reason for one of the top teams to put a Japanese driver in their car given the supposed declining interest in F1 specifically and cars in general in Japan. For the above reasons, he's not going to get a top drive.

Oh jeez.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Assessments of KK's racecraft aside, there's also no commercial reason for one of the top teams to put a Japanese driver in their car given the supposed declining interest in F1 specifically and cars in general in Japan. For the above reasons, he's not going to get a top drive.

That's an excellent argument.

Or it would be if it actually had anything to do with the way the front-running teams selected their drivers. They don't choose drivers based on their nationality or their commercial appeal. They pick the best driver available, based on their racecraft - which is not exclusively limited to their results. There have been plenty of occasions in the past where a driver is selected for Formula 1 and has been perceived as an unusual choice, only for them to prove highly capable. Kobayashi in particular is a fine example of this; based on his GP2 results alone, he was never going to make it in Formula 1. But when he was called up to replace the injured Timo Glock at Toyota, he proved more than adept behind the wheel, while Romain Grosjean - who was leading the GP2 championship when he was promoted to Formula 1 - floundered.

 

[ZEROX]

I also read the driver-and-team quotes ESPN-UK posts after each race and several times have noted adverse comment there about Kobayashi. My own view of the KK/Lewis incident at Spa was that it was 100 percent KK's fault -- given Sauber's tire strategy and overall pace, he had about as much business going back at McLaren as an HRT would have in going back at a Red Bull; even had he pulled it off he wouldn't have been able to hold the place after the next DRS zone.

So, you mean Kobayashi didn't allow to attack at all cost at all?

That's not Formula 1 race. That is sissy race. Unless he's on blue flag, which is isn't the case here.
And Kobay is not that kind of guy. Infact, Ham move infront of him despite Kobay stay on the racing line and racing him.

All and all, like Interlude and Hamiliton himself said, it's his fault.
Well, it's already the past race. Move along.

And about Liuzzi crash, it's just an over ambitious move. It's his fault alone, as a F1 driver, he should know carrying that speed with full fuel load and with braking with two tyre on the grass would be a disaster. A merely common sense for all racing driver and Liuzzi blew it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

My own view of the KK/Lewis incident at Spa was that it was 100 percent KK's fault -- given Sauber's tire strategy and overall pace, he had about as much business going back at McLaren as an HRT would have in going back at a Red Bull; even had he pulled it off he wouldn't have been able to hold the place after the next DRS zone.

If a driver has track position, he has a right to defend that track position, even if the other car is much faster. Or would you prefer a Formula 1 where drivers who have not pitted are shown the blue flag when a driver who has pitted it behind them, regardless of their actual track position, like in DTM?

If you had watched the replays from Spa as extensively as you claim, you would have noticed that Kamui Kobayashi was as far over as he could manage without going off the circuit. What was he supposed to do when Hamilton cut back across in front of him? Drive off the circuit? Come to a complete stop on the track? Kobayashi did everything right in that situation. Hamilton even admitted fault.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

If a driver has track position, he has a right to defend that track position, even if the other car is much faster. Or would you prefer a Formula 1 where drivers who have not pitted are shown the blue flag when a driver who has pitted it behind them, regardless of their actual track position, like in DTM?

If you had watched the replays from Spa as extensively as you claim, you would have noticed that Kamui Kobayashi was as far over as he could manage without going off the circuit. What was he supposed to do when Hamilton cut back across in front of him? Drive off the circuit? Come to a complete stop on the track? Kobayashi did everything right in that situation. Hamilton even admitted fault.

KK was beside/overlapping Hamilton, not behind him. I'm not arguing his rights; I am arguing his judgment. No matter what he said post-race, he was clearly trying to pass.