2011 Jetta: Newer and cheaper

[///M-Spec]

I don't see why it couldn't be a family car here in the states either. Jetta's aren't exactly small. You could easily fit mom, dad and two kids plus all their crap in a Jetta pretty easily. You'd have to get the estate version if you wanted to take the dog though.

In my experience, they are too small. We got my wife a Mk. IV after our first child. The trunk is good sized and will hold lots of stuff, but the rear seats are very tight. I'm just shy of 6 feet and I couldn't "sit behind myself". Put a rear-facing child seat in the back, and you will have to compromise legroom of the front passenger. Therefore, we put the seat in the middle position, which pretty much meant no one else was riding in the back. And forget about putting adults in the back for any length of time. We ditched our Jetta before our second child arrived.

The Mk VI might change things, seeing how it is larger. But traditionally I don't see Jettas as 'family cars'. An American family car is traditionally EPA mid-sized or larger. The Mk. IV was a compact. A good starter car for a young couple, yes. Larger family, no.

Ish. Stuff like Golfs, Ford Escorts, Toyota Corollas and the like used to be called family cars over here, but despite that class of cars getting physically bigger all the time they're actually now known as "small family cars" with Mondeos, Passats etc now "family cars".

That seems to be the trend. I had a pet theory on why that happens.

I'm gonna say it. Unless you're fat, carry full-sized adults around every day or can't stop breeding, something the size of a Jetta is easily big enough for the average family and their luggage.

Why don't you have a couple of children and then get back to us on that?

Seriously though, this may be largely cultural. Americans tend to like having a lot of space. And we equate space with luxury. I read an interesting article a while back on how different cultures view "personal space", and wasn't surprised to see that Europeans as a group had a comfort zone that was much smaller than Americans. Might have something to do with being packed into that tiny continent for a couple of millennia.

This confirmed my own personal observations. I noticed many Europeans stand really close to the other person when having a normal conversation. I don't mind this if I happen to be talking to a hot Danish girl, but it's less pleasant when it happens to be profusely sweating Italian man.

A torsion beam is more than good enough for a Jetta.

I thought our sport package Mk. IV handled reasonably well. Not nearly as sophisticated as a 3-series Bimmer but good enough for the class of car. It needed more body control in general though, particularly in fast transitions.

But one reason why it had a nice wide and deep trunk is because torsion beams are nice and compact.


M

 

[Azuremen]

Seriously though, this may be largely cultural. Americans tend to like having a lot of space. And we equate space with luxury. I read an interesting article a while back on how different cultures view "personal space", and wasn't surprised to see that Europeans as a group had a comfort zone that was much smaller than Americans. Might have something to do with being packed into that tiny continent for a couple of millennia.

M

Or that the average American is a touch taller than the average Brit.

Compacts just don't make good family cars. Though I am of course biased being 6'4, thus the back seat of anything besides a 7 series feels a bit tight.

But there is literally no room for legs in most compacts if the front seats are all the way back.

 

[Jondot]

Seriously though, this may be largely cultural. Americans tend to like having a lot of space. And we equate space with luxury. I read an interesting article a while back on how different cultures view "personal space", and wasn't surprised to see that Europeans as a group had a comfort zone that was much smaller than Americans. Might have something to do with being packed into that tiny continent for a couple of millennia.

That's basically it. If you'd ever witnessed 5 University students squeezing into a Vauxhall Corsa you'd realise we're not used to having the luxury of space very often

Then of course you've got to consider other factors - big car on the inside = big car on the outside most of the time. While I'm sure 90% of UK families would love the space of say a Mondeo estate, they'd be petrified by the thought of negotiating the thing around a car park. Particularly when our cities tend to have multi-storey ones that make a Ka feel like a bus.

That, combined with the higher price tag and extra fuel costs, is why most of us are quite satisfied with a Golf between a family of 4.

 

[Moglet]

As Jondot said, our roads are tiny and our carparks are even smaller.

This is the kind of carpark I love navigating in my car because I can fit into every space, but it annoys people in large cars because there are never any spaces for them to park in safely.

EDIT: Another inner city carpark, those parking bays can just about fit my car in safely

There's a reason a lot of us drive hatchbacks! And yeah, we don't mind cramming into cars either. Just the other week we had 5 people in one of these;

 

[Philly]

How much torque will the new VW have out of the Diesel? Also will they sell the TDI 2.0 in 4Matic?

I think the TDI has around 240 lb-ft of torque. And that comes with the DSG. So both the TDI and GLI will probably be fairly well equipped cars. Unfortunately, both will probably start well above $20k. There will be a multi-link rear suspension for the GLI as well. Hopefully they put that on the TDI.

 

[homeforsummer]

This is just.....wow. They might aswell have called it the 'VW generic car'.

See, this is the attitude I'm not sure I understand. VWs, more so than virtually any other car, have timeless designs. Not the most interesting when brand new, but sure as hell don't look half as old-hat as anything else a few years down the line. Why? They aren't "fashionable". They're "stylish" instead. Style is eternal, as they say, whereas fashion is only temporary.

Give me a slightly toned-down VW over an over-egged Ford "kinetic" any day.

In my experience, they are too small. We got my wife a Mk. IV after our first child. The trunk is good sized and will hold lots of stuff, but the rear seats are very tight. I'm just shy of 6 feet and I couldn't "sit behind myself". Put a rear-facing child seat in the back, and you will have to compromise legroom of the front passenger. Therefore, we put the seat in the middle position, which pretty much meant no one else was riding in the back. And forget about putting adults in the back for any length of time. We ditched our Jetta before our second child arrived.

The Mk VI might change things, seeing how it is larger. But traditionally I don't see Jettas as 'family cars'. An American family car is traditionally EPA mid-sized or larger. The Mk. IV was a compact. A good starter car for a young couple, yes. Larger family, no.

That seems to be the trend. I had a pet theory on why that happens.

Admittedly, our family is quite small. I'm the tallest, and I'm only 5'10". But still, I know for fact that five adults can be comfortable in a Mondeo, so you question the need for anything bigger. Especially since adults are less likely to need the sort of size luggage that children require - prams and such.

Seriously though, this may be largely cultural. Americans tend to like having a lot of space. And we equate space with luxury.

Don't get me wrong - space is luxury. There is no greater definition of luxury than space.

But then, how many small families actually need luxury, really? If you want luxury, then a Jetta is very much not the car for you. If you want a good, economical, quality family car, then the Jetta should be high up on your list. Our old Renault 19 was anything but luxurious, but it was more than good enough for a small family doing trips into Europe of well over 1000 miles.

And when you start talking about trips of less than 100 miles, well then how much space do you really need? And how often do you carry even one single passenger, let alone a full car full?...

But one reason why it had a nice wide and deep trunk is because torsion beams are nice and compact.

Well, quite. The Jetta is not a sports saloon in the same vein as a 3-series, and a torsion beam is more than up to the job. Given that VW enthusiasts seem to dump the cars to the floor anyway, it's not like they're too concerned with on-the-limit handling. And even if they were, my aforementioned Renault comment highlights the fact that torsion beams can be used with fantastic results in performance cars.

Or that the average American is a touch taller than the average Brit.

And likely larger in diameter...

Compacts just don't make good family cars.

Well, they can do, as I mentioned before. It depends entirely on how big the family is. In my experience, people buy far too big a car for their actual needs.

Though I am of course biased being 6'4, thus the back seat of anything besides a 7 series feels a bit tight.

You must be what the industry would call "a freak", then Actually I lie, but I'd be surprised if at that height you aren't out of what they'd call the "95th percentile", which is the size in which 95% of people are classified in, the other 5% being smaller or taller than the vast majority.

But for anyone under 6 foot, a car the size of the Jetta is easily big enough, even with a 6 foot driver in front of a 6 foot passenger.

 

[Azuremen]

And likely larger in diameter...

Well at least we have straight teeth.

You must be what the industry would call "a freak", then Actually I lie, but I'd be surprised if at that height you aren't out of what they'd call the "95th percentile", which is the size in which 95% of people are classified in, the other 5% being smaller or taller than the vast majority.

But for anyone under 6 foot, a car the size of the Jetta is easily big enough, even with a 6 foot driver in front of a 6 foot passenger.

I'd disagree. Maybe for short trips around town, but not anything over 30 minutes. There just isn't that much room back there...

As for the point of people buying cars that are far too large... Yes, I had no issues driving the MR-S day to day, aside from the couple times a month where I'd buy food at Costco (and being American, I had to buy a lot) or wanted to have more than a passenger (or 2 female ones ).

What would I buy if I was going to get a family car? 5 series Estate, with some V8 in it. And given how I grew (I was 6'2 when I was 12), my kids would probably appreciate having a back seat big enough for actual humans.

 

[homeforsummer]

Well at least we have straight teeth.

Touché

I'd disagree. Maybe for short trips around town, but not anything over 30 minutes. There just isn't that much room back there...

Like I said, it very much depends on how tall you are. If you're under 6ft, then a Jetta would be more than up to the task even if the person you're sitting behind is equally as tall. Over that, then not so much. But not many kids are over 6ft until they're over about 15 years old anyway, so for the average family with no more than two kids a Jetta is fine...

As for the point of people buying cars that are far too large... Yes, I had no issues driving the MR-S day to day, aside from the couple times a month where I'd buy food at Costco (and being American, I had to buy a lot) or wanted to have more than a passenger (or 2 female ones ).

I have to say I've been surprised with how easily I've got by with my MX5. There's more than enough space for myself and the girlfriend, plus any luggage. Even my 23" TV (any larger TVs: no...). But for the few days a year I need something bigger, like when I'm helping people move house in a few weeks time, I can hire a van for £60 (about... $90) for a few days. Suits me fine.

What would I buy if I was going to get a family car? 5 series Estate, with some V8 in it. And given how I grew (I was 6'2 when I was 12), my kids would probably appreciate having a back seat big enough for actual humans.

If I desperately wanted something big enough for people, then something Honda Accord sized would be up to the task. Most of my friends are girls though who are no more than about 5'5" at the most...

 

[Jim Prower]

I often look in the back of my new...Sentra Coupe, and think that "I was sure my Nova had more room back there." I haven't even tried to get back there.

 

[Keef]

Works pretty well for Renaultsport and their cars can outhandle pretty much anything.

Except a Cobalt SS. If Chevrolet is good at anything, it's good at making cheap suspensions!

 

[nick09]

Today I sat into my friend's Chevy Chevette(last year they produced it) and the silly thing has more headroom than my 2002 escort! Mind that I am also about 6'1 tall and in the escort with the seat all of the way back I only have about an 1/2 inch of headroom. In the Chevette I have 2-3 inches of headroom and I did not even adjust the seats for headroom!

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I hopped into a Festiva at a junkyard and went "Wait what?". Top hat will fit. Which is saying something, I don't fit in a sunroof equipped Fusion today unless I feel like doing an epic gangsta lean.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's the odd thing about some small cars, that. Many are a little taller to make up for the fact it's a little shorter, and you sit more upright generally. Some small cars have quite a lot of space inside. The modern Fiat 500 is one. The MINI is not...

 

[///M-Spec]

Admittedly, our family is quite small. I'm the tallest, and I'm only 5'10". But still, I know for fact that five adults can be comfortable in a Mondeo, so you question the need for anything bigger. Especially since adults are less likely to need the sort of size luggage that children require - prams and such.

Don't get me wrong - space is luxury. There is no greater definition of luxury than space.

But then, how many small families actually need luxury, really? If you want luxury, then a Jetta is very much not the car for you. If you want a good, economical, quality family car, then the Jetta should be high up on your list. Our old Renault 19 was anything but luxurious, but it was more than good enough for a small family doing trips into Europe of well over 1000 miles.

And when you start talking about trips of less than 100 miles, well then how much space do you really need? And how often do you carry even one single passenger, let alone a full car full?...

Well first off, you don't need a car that is fun to drive and nice to look at. But that didn't stop you from getting one. I didn't need a car with AWD and 340 horsepowers, but that didn't stop me from getting one.

Nobody wants to get by with only what they need. People want the things they want. And Americans want enough space to feel comfortable. As I pointed out, there seems to be cultural difference between what Americans consider "big enough" and what Europeans consider "big enough".

Keep in mind that there aren't many incentives to get a smaller car here in the states. Our car parks are vast. Our roads wide and straight. Our fuel is still dirt cheap compared to Europe. So when there is no significant penalty to owning a full sized car (like a US market Accord), of course family minded people would be inclined to choose the larger one (all other factors being the same). Hell, most upper class to affluent families skip big sedans and go straight to SUVs and decked out minivans.

I've never sat in a Mondeo. But I sat in the back of our Jetta many times over the course of our ownership. If you put 3 of me in the back, it would be full body contact --shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow. If a clone of me was driving, he'd either need to adjust his seat to an uncomfortable driving position or cut off the circulation in my legs.

That's not what I'd consider comfortable. And before you get any smart ideas about my diameter, you should know that I am 5'11" and weigh 174 lbs with a BMI of 24.3. Most my friends would say I'm "thin". I could probably stand to lose 10 pounds or so, but this is still within "normal" for my age.

And likely larger in diameter...

Hey we may be the fattest country on Earth, but you guys aren't too far behind...


M

 

[homeforsummer]

Well first off, you don't need a car that is fun to drive and nice to look at. But that didn't stop you from getting one. I didn't need a car with AWD and 340 horsepowers, but that didn't stop me from getting one.

Nobody wants to get by with only what they need. People want the things they want. And Americans want enough space to feel comfortable. As I pointed out, there seems to be cultural difference between what Americans consider "big enough" and what Europeans consider "big enough".

Quite true. But I was making the statement matter-of-factly, in that a lot of people seem to choose something excessive. Don't get me wrong, it happens in the UK too - you'd be amazed how many one-child families buy people carriers. Taking the concept of choice out of the equation, it makes no sense whatsoever.

My mum used to take me and my brother around in a Citroen Visa. When we were very young, she still even managed to fit a pram in the boot. If my mum could manage with a supermini back in the mid eighties then modern mums sure as hell can manage with something that small.

And sure I didn't need my MX5, but then we're talking about practicality here, rather than performance or fun. You started with remarking that the Jetta was considered a family car in the EU. I responded by saying it is, because it's big enough for the average family. I just think it's daft that as soon as people start dropping sprogs they immediately go out and buy the biggest minivan they can lay their hands on.

And if you have to bring wants vs. needs into it, then I'd much prefer a small, handsome saloon to a big boat of a car. Buying a minivan, at least in the UK, is like a sign that you've given up on life now that you've served your biological purpose.

I've never sat in a Mondeo. But I sat in the back of our Jetta many times over the course of our ownership. If you put 3 of me in the back, it would be full body contact --shoulder to shoulder, elbow to elbow. If a clone of me was driving, he'd either need to adjust his seat to an uncomfortable driving position or cut off the circulation in my legs.

That's not what I'd consider comfortable. And before you get any smart ideas about my diameter, you should know that I am 5'11" and weigh 174 lbs with a BMI of 24.3. Most my friends would say I'm "thin". I could probably stand to lose 10 pounds or so, but this is still within "normal" for my age.

That's why I mentioned earlier that you'd obviously want something bigger if you were taking adults about all the time. For the average family with a couple of kids, I suspect it would easily have enough space, am I right?

Hey we may be the fattest country on Earth, but you guys aren't too far behind...

Tell me about it. I work with most of them.

 

[Azuremen]

You may think it is daft, but just wait till you have kids or some non-sense.

Hell, I could probably fit (hypothetically) me, a wife, and 2 kids in my M3 Coupe for some time with reasonable comfort. Back seat is just as big as the back seat on an M3 Sedan, just a little harder to access.

And before you question that too much, I spent most of my early years sitting in the back of a Z32 300ZX or an SVX till my step mom came along with an SUV thinger. And while the coupes worked, it was certainly less than ideal...

 

[Moglet]

It's the odd thing about some small cars, that. Many are a little taller to make up for the fact it's a little shorter, and you sit more upright generally. Some small cars have quite a lot of space inside. The modern Fiat 500 is one. The MINI is not...

I don't think the Mini is that bad, it's just the interior space is a bit cramped considering the size of the body. The 500 has heaps of room but you do sit quite high up and are very 'upright' in the front seats.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

The 500 has heaps of room but you do sit quite high up and are very 'upright' in the front seats.

I think that's the reason Americans don't like the back seats in "compact" cars.

 

[Azuremen]

The 500 has heaps of room but you do sit quite high up and are very 'upright' in the front seats.

Are you per chance a circus midget? Because the 500 doesn't strike me as "heaps of room" car.

Maybe if you know origami...

with people.

 

[Moglet]

Are you per chance a circus midget? Because the 500 doesn't strike me as "heaps of room" car.

Maybe if you know origami...

with people.

No, I'm 5' 10" and I don't have a family. My car has more than enough room for what I use it for. Surely you must have deducted that I meant within it's class from my post? It's a tiny car, I'm not going to go comparing it to SUVs or anything

 

[homeforsummer]

You may think it is daft, but just wait till you have kids or some non-sense.

I shudder to think. Not for a long time...

Hell, I could probably fit (hypothetically) me, a wife, and 2 kids in my M3 Coupe for some time with reasonable comfort. Back seat is just as big as the back seat on an M3 Sedan, just a little harder to access.

I would add that of course it's helpful if a family car has doors into the back seats too. I wouldn't inflict a two or three door car on any parent. Our old Citroen was still a five door hatch.

And before you question that too much, I spent most of my early years sitting in the back of a Z32 300ZX or an SVX till my step mom came along with an SUV thinger. And while the coupes worked, it was certainly less than ideal...

Of course. But as you say, it worked.

My point, not to go over it too many times as I thought I was making it fairly clear, was that a family with a couple of kids should be easily able to get away with a car like the Jetta. Something like a Golf would be better (hatchbacks are more practical), but the reason something like the Jetta is considered a family car in Europe is because it's quite easily capable of doing what the average family requests of it. Hell, a Honda Jazz or similar is big enough to cope with most tasks a family could throw at it.

 

[Jondot]

You may think it is daft, but just wait till you have kids or some non-sense.

Hell, I could probably fit (hypothetically) me, a wife, and 2 kids in my M3 Coupe for some time with reasonable comfort. Back seat is just as big as the back seat on an M3 Sedan, just a little harder to access.

As someone that has been in the back of an E36 Coupe on a 3 hour journey, I can assure you that the term 'reasonable comfort' does not apply. Admittedly it was a 6ft guy in the seat in front of me, but that's not a completely ridiculous height (hell I'm 5'11). There was plenty of room to move about, but my legs felt like I imagine they'd feel after some sort of head on collision.

 

[///M-Spec]

Quite true. But I was making the statement matter-of-factly, in that a lot of people seem to choose something excessive. Don't get me wrong, it happens in the UK too - you'd be amazed how many one-child families buy people carriers. Taking the concept of choice out of the equation, it makes no sense whatsoever.

My mum used to take me and my brother around in a Citroen Visa. When we were very young, she still even managed to fit a pram in the boot. If my mum could manage with a supermini back in the mid eighties then modern mums sure as hell can manage with something that small.

And before cars were invented, mums managed with a mule and cart. Times and expectations change. When I was a kid, my parents got by with a 1979 AMC Spirit, which was a restyled Gremlin.

But I don't want to simply "get by". It is the nature of man to improve his lot in life. Why should people be expected to simply "manage" or "get by", if they have the option of being "satisfied" and "happy"?

And sure I didn't need my MX5, but then we're talking about practicality here, rather than performance or fun.

I am drawing a philosophical analogy between the desire for performance and comfort.

You don't need a car that is fun to drive. But you may like having one.

Mr. and Mrs. Jones doesn't need a car with 82 cubic feet of cargo space. But they may like having one.

Who is to tell whom what one should have and what one shouldn't? How many things do you own which you don't absolutely need? If the Jones are daft for wanting and having something they don't need, what does that make you?

Take your Miata back to 1950 and it would be as fast as most supercars of the day. Why do you need such overkill when grandpa was happy with a 54 horsepower MG TC?

And if you have to bring wants vs. needs into it, then I'd much prefer a small, handsome saloon to a big boat of a car.

I think I recall once you saying something about fancying an E60 5-Series. Was that you? Isn't that a big boat of a car over there?

I just think it's daft that as soon as people start dropping sprogs they immediately go out and buy the biggest minivan they can lay their hands on.

Don't you think its also daft to judge someone before you've walked a mile in their shoes?

That's why I mentioned earlier that you'd obviously want something bigger if you were taking adults about all the time. For the average family with a couple of kids, I suspect it would easily have enough space, am I right?

You can't make that assumption because all families are different. It depends on the lifestyle of the family. I know several stay at home mothers that have only 2 children of their own but regularly drive around their friends' children. Some are cub-scout den mothers. One dad is a softball coach. Some are part of a mom's club where they take turns watch all the kids so the other moms can go to the gym or run errands. So they all have SUVs or minivans.

You also can't make the assumption that everything a family needs to carry fits neatly in a seat or in the trunk. As I said earlier, a rear-facing car seat, required for infants up to 20 pounds takes up a lot of room. If you have two of those, front passenger legroom is likely to be compromised. And I can tell you from experience that the smaller the child is, the more stuff they need. Try packing for a week long vacation with two young children, and you'll soon understand what I'm talking about.

Furthermore I can easily think of many, many typical situations where a Jetta isn't enough room. One mom, two kids, need to transport a full sized adult bicycle internally. One mom and one dad needs to take several dishes (they can not be stacked) and to a friend's home for a dinner party. One dad, one kid needs to transport a lawn mower and doesn't want to disassemble it. One dad needs to pick up a family of four and their luggage at the airport. Etc. etc.

This is why we have a mid-sized sedan and a wagon now.

EDIT *Actually, I just looked it up and the S4 is a compact car, not a mid-sized.

You may think it is daft, but just wait till you have kids or some non-sense.

Having kids is not for everyone. But for those with the willingness to do it right, there is no greater reward.

Coincidence that yesterday was father's day.


M

 

[TVC]

Like others have said the back of it does look like an Audi.

 

[homeforsummer]

But I don't want to simply "get by". It is the nature of man to improve his lot in life. Why should people be expected to simply "manage" or "get by", if they have the option of being "satisfied" and "happy"?

I'm not sure how "wants" crept into the discussion in the first place. I'm saying, point blank, that a family can manage with a normal car. If my parents could do it in the past with much less, then parents can do it now.

I'm fully aware that people are at liberty to buy as much as they want, but that is not what I am discussing.

I think I recall once you saying something about fancying an E60 5-Series. Was that you? Isn't that a big boat of a car over there?

Unlikely to be me. The only 5-Series I'm interested in are the M5s, and some of the much older ones. That also doesn't mean that I'd ever put my money down on one. You might have caught me mentioning that I prefer the E60 a great deal more than the bland item that replaced it, though.

You can't make that assumption because all families are different. It depends on the lifestyle of the family. I know several stay at home mothers that have only 2 children of their own but regularly drive around their friends' children. Some are cub-scout den mothers. One dad is a softball coach. Some are part of a mom's club where they take turns watch all the kids so the other moms can go to the gym or run errands. So they all have SUVs or minivans.

In situations like that it's fair enough - but I don't know if in the States you get the same thing we do over here, where someone running around in a normal car will suddenly trade up to a full-size minivan just because they've had one kid. Complete overkill.

Furthermore I can easily think of many, many typical situations where a Jetta isn't enough room. One mom, two kids, need to transport a full sized adult bicycle internally. One mom and one dad needs to take several dishes (they can not be stacked) and to a friend's home for a dinner party. One dad, one kid needs to transport a lawn mower and doesn't want to disassemble it. One dad needs to pick up a family of four and their luggage at the airport. Etc. etc.

Maybe you carry lawnmowers about with you everywhere you go in the States but on the rare occasions people do stuff like that here they hitch up a small trailer, which is more than up to the task and means you can drive a decent car the 99% of the time you aren't carrying a lawnmower with you.

 

[///M-Spec]

I'm not sure how "wants" crept into the discussion in the first place. I'm saying, point blank, that a family can manage with a normal car. If my parents could do it in the past with much less, then parents can do it now.

You've actually said more than that in the course of the thread, whether you meant to or not. You've basically said people should buy what they absolutely need, or they're daft.

In response, I said people should buy what they want, thus freeing them from your colorful descriptive.

How is that not a perfectly valid counter-argument?

Unlikely to be me. The only 5-Series I'm interested in are the M5s, and some of the much older ones. That also doesn't mean that I'd ever put my money down on one. You might have caught me mentioning that I prefer the E60 a great deal more than the bland item that replaced it, though.

Okay; not that important anyway.

In situations like that it's fair enough - but I don't know if in the States you get the same thing we do over here, where someone running around in a normal car will suddenly trade up to a full-size minivan just because they've had one kid. Complete overkill.

How do you know that one child is the reason they've switched up? Maybe they're planning more kids? Maybe they've had some other change in their lifestyle that makes them feel a minivan is the right choice for them? Are you really in a better position to judge what they need?

Maybe you carry lawnmowers about with you everywhere you go in the States but on the rare occasions people do stuff like that here they hitch up a small trailer, which is more than up to the task and means you can drive a decent car the 99% of the time you aren't carrying a lawnmower with you.

Cute, but you ignored the many other circumstances I cited.

My father in law bought a new riding mower and offered me his old one. It wouldn't fit in my E36 M3 sedan (almost identical size to our Mark IV Jetta) so I had to borrow his F150 to get it home. If we already had our Nissan Murano, I could have done it in one trip rather than three.

Besides, what makes borrowing or renting a small trailer a "better" solution?

What makes a Jetta a decent car, but a full sized family car (say, a US market Honda Accord) not a decent car?

Finally, you strongly imply that having capacity that you aren't always using is a negative thing. Ergo, unless I always have 82 cubic feet of junk in my vehicle, I shouldn't own one with an 82 cubic foot capacity.

To which I would respond by asking you how often you reach vmax on your sports car. If the answer is anything less than "everytime I drive it", then I would submit that you are violating your own implied rule.


M

 

[homeforsummer]

You've actually said more than that in the course of the thread, whether you meant to or not. You've basically said people should buy what they absolutely need, or they're daft.

In response, I said people should buy what they want, thus freeing them from your colorful descriptive.

How is that not a perfectly valid counter-argument?

You're putting words into my mouth. I've not at any point said that people should buy only what they need, I've only been saying that they can get by in a normal car, whether they want to or not. I've already said that I understand the freedom of choice.

How is that not perfectly clear?...

How do you know that one child is the reason they've switched up? Maybe they're planning more kids? Maybe they've had some other change in their lifestyle that makes them feel a minivan is the right choice for them? Are you really in a better position to judge what they need?

Or maybe, they're just going to have one kid and call it a day. I don't know what it's like over there, but how abouts we trust my observations in the country I live, yeah?

Cute, but you ignored the many other circumstances I cited.

My father in law bought a new riding mower and offered me his old one. It wouldn't fit in my E36 M3 sedan (almost identical size to our Mark IV Jetta) so I had to borrow his F150 to get it home. If we already had our Nissan Murano, I could have done it in one trip rather than three.

Besides, what makes borrowing or renting a small trailer a "better" solution?

You're making it sound like this is a regular thing. For some families it probably is, but I somehow doubt that justifies the number of minivans on the road. I'd expect the number of people who get full use out of them is in the lower proportion rather than the higher.

The last time our family needed a trailer for anything was about 20 years ago. We hooked it up to the aforementioned Visa.

The last time I needed anything bigger than a normal car was when I helped my flatmate move in a year ago, when I rented a van. It cost £40 for the day. The next time I'll need one, in a few weeks time for the same purpose, it'll cost another £40.

The rest of the time, I make do with a car I enjoy driving.

My point is that there's, more often than not, contingency. You yourself borrowed your Dad's F150 - you clearly don't drive one yourself every day and then find it useful on the one occasion you need to move a sit-on lawnmower.

What makes a Jetta a decent car, but a full sized family car (say, a US market Honda Accord) not a decent car?

I think I've missed something here. When did I discount cars from the class above the Jetta?

Finally, you strongly imply that having capacity that you aren't always using is a negative thing. Ergo, unless I always have 82 cubic feet of junk in my vehicle, I shouldn't own one with an 82 cubic foot capacity.

To which I would respond by asking you how often you reach vmax on your sports car. If the answer is anything less than "everytime I drive it", then I would submit that you are violating your own implied rule.

Firstly, I enjoy driving in any situation, so my sports car is something I constantly enjoy. In fact, I'm wondering where you've read that a sports car must be driven flat-out the whole time in order to enjoy it? There is much more to appreciate than simply speed.

A minivan? Designed specifically to carry lots of people or lots of stuff? Not exacly multifaceted, is it really? It therefore stands to reason that unless you're using it to at least most of it's potential most of the time, you could pretty easily get by with something smaller.

Which has been my point all along...

 

[Keef]

I feel there may be a wall between you and M Spec. It's called the Atlantic ocean. I've never been there, you may never have been here, but I'm pretty sure we've come up with different solutions to the same problems. When we have a child we buy a Suburban. When you have a child you upgrade to a 5-door hatch instead of the old 3-door.

My boss commutes in a crew cab Chevy 2500 with the big turbodiesel. About once a month he tows a dragster, and the rest of the time it's just him driving in this huge, ridiculous thing. But it gets like 25 mpg on the highway, so it's cheaper to do that than to own a second car. The truck will also outlive any typical car by about 3 lifespans.

 

[///M-Spec]

You're putting words into my mouth. I've not at any point said that people should buy only what they need, I've only been saying that they can get by in a normal car, whether they want to or not. I've already said that I understand the freedom of choice.

How is that not perfectly clear?...

But you have undoubtedly criticized people for buying more than what you think they need. What other conclusion would any reasonable person draw other than you don't think they should do it??

I'm gonna say it. Unless you're fat, carry full-sized adults around every day or can't stop breeding, something the size of a Jetta is easily big enough for the average family and their luggage.

I just think it's daft that as soon as people start dropping sprogs they immediately go out and buy the biggest minivan they can lay their hands on.

So let's go thought it one step at a time.

People who "drop sprogs"

AND DO NOT carry adults around every day

AND buy big minivans rather than a Jetta sized vehicle

ARE fat, can't stop breeding and daft.

How is this putting words in your mouth?

Or maybe, they're just going to have one kid and call it a day. I don't know what it's like over there, but how abouts we trust my observations in the country I live, yeah?

But you don't know if either is true, unless you ask them. So why pass judgement, particularly a negative one before you have the facts?

Do you enjoy it when people ask if you are gay, a hairdresser, or both?

You're making it sound like this is a regular thing. For some families it probably is, but I somehow doubt that justifies the number of minivans on the road. I'd expect the number of people who get full use out of them is in the lower proportion rather than the higher.

The last time our family needed a trailer for anything was about 20 years ago. We hooked it up to the aforementioned Visa.

The last time I needed anything bigger than a normal car was when I helped my flatmate move in a year ago, when I rented a van. It cost £40 for the day. The next time I'll need one, in a few weeks time for the same purpose, it'll cost another £40.

The rest of the time, I make do with a car I enjoy driving.

How often does a vehicle have to be used in a manner for which is it expressly designed before it is "justified"?

If I see you driving down a road in a non-enthusiastic manner within the speed limit with the top up, can I then conclude you can't justify owning a sports car?

My point is that there's, more often than not, contingency. You yourself borrowed your Dad's F150 - you clearly don't drive one yourself every day and then find it useful on the one occasion you need to move a sit-on lawnmower.

I borrowed the Ford because I had to, not because I wanted to.

In my estimation, the benefits of something like a Murano far outweigh the cons. Situations like this simply reinforce my conclusion.

I think I've missed something here. When did I discount cars from the class above the Jetta?

When you questioned why an average family would need something larger?

Firstly, I enjoy driving in any situation, so my sports car is something I constantly enjoy.

Fallacy of Distraction. A minivan driver can also be happy and content 100% of the time behind the wheel, safe in the knowledge that if they needed to carry lots of people or something larger and heavy, they could. Just like you enjoy knowing that if you want to, you could drive at the limits of adhesion and have a bit of fun.

You still have more capacity than you can use on a daily basis.

Unless you want to me believe that sports cars should be enjoyed nowhere near the limits of their performance envelope.

Which is like saying minivans should be only lightly loaded at any time.

In fact, I'm wondering where you've read that a sports car must be driven flat-out the whole time in order to enjoy it? There is much more to appreciate than simply speed.

Yes, I obviously wouldn't know the first thing about appreciating sports cars.

C'mon dude.

A minivan? Designed specifically to carry lots of people or lots of stuff? Not exacly multifaceted, is it really? It therefore stands to reason that unless you're using it to at least most of it's potential most of the time, you could pretty easily get by with something smaller.

Which has been my point all along...

I changed a few words around and got this:

A sports car? Designed specifically to stretch one's penis? Not exactly multifaceted, is it really? It therefore stands to reason that unless you're using it to at least most of it's potential most of the time, you could pretty easily get by with something slower, cheaper and more practical.

The point is not to mock you, but rather illustrate that it is very easy to second guess and criticize the choices people make.

You bought a Miata because all the benefits of owning one outweigh the penalties. "Fat" and "daft" people buy minivans because of the same reason. So why the scorn, mockery and criticism?


M

 

[Azuremen]

HFS, you do understand we don't get insurance premiums and tax rates based on engine size and such? And owning a car is much much cheaper here than there?

Because you make it sound like I'd be insane to buy an E39 540i later this year unless I had 2 teenagers and a wife. But guess what, I probably will. And I'll own several cars. Why? Because I can. Because this America and I won't get taxed more for owning 3 cars (well, minus $40 annually for licensing) and my insurance premiums won't really go up either.

Basically, there is no real waste of resources to get a Minivan that get 27mpg versus a Jetta that gets 32mpg when you use that extra capacity more often. Plus, in America, we tend to drive a bit more, and aren't a rock in the North Atlantic that you drive across in a day. Pretty sure most families would find it easier to have 2 kids in the back of a minivan, with TV screens and space for 7 hours of driving, than getting their seats kicked because the Jetta is tiny.

Expand your god damn thinking out of the "America is wasteful" mindset. It is moving from cute to insulting and you aren't making many friends at the moment with it.