2012 Formula One Santander British Grand Prix

[gorsad]

So far. The discussion often continues until the next thread is created, so this threads post count will go up.

And because people were arguing over the Hamiton-Maldonado incident. This race didn't have as many controversial moments as Valencia did.

 

[Peasantslayer]

When was this exactly? It certainly wasn't last year.

Last year, he outscored him marginally in the championship because the car was terrible but I'm sure that in qualifying he dominated Maldonado and Barrichello was never known as a one lap specialist.

Maldonado and Senna both managed to beat Barrichello and Petrov more than once last year, and when you consider their experience compared to their former rivals, that's not bad at all.

Petrov has never been a brilliant driver just look at how much more effective Heidfeld was, I'm sure Senna has much more single seater experience than Petrov to.

 

[gorsad]

Last year, he outscored him marginally in the championship because the car was terrible but I'm sure that in qualifying he dominated Maldonado and Barrichello was never known as a one lap specialist.

Well, you could look at it that way. But if Maldonado had finished the Monaco GP without being taken out by Hamilton then he would've outscored Barrichello.

 

[Blaze_409]

Im terrified for the drivers at Spa and Monza. I can already see Malfunctionado driving like a quack and refusing to cede position that is no longer his going into Eau Rouge.....

 

[Famine]

Well, you could look at it that way. But if Maldonado had finished the Monaco GP without being taken out by Hamilton then he would've outscored Barrichello.

Or, you can refer to Famine's Adjusted Teams' Championship, which was designed for such things:

2011 Williams - Maldonado 57.5%, Barrichello 42.5%
2011 Williams - Maldonado 46pt (10, 8, 8, 6, 4, 4, 4, 2), Barrichello 34pt (12, 10, 8, 4)

Williams' points - scored only when both cars finish - ratio shows that Maldonado scored more than Barrichello - through finishing behind Barrichello. The detailed table shows that on the 12 occasions both cars finished (or were classified), Maldonado finished behind Barrichello 8 times (66.6% of the time).

The seven times they failed to get both cars to the end included six retirements from Maldonado (two gearboxes, one clutch, one engine and two crashes) and three retirements from Barrichello (one engine, one gearbox, one hydraulics) - they both failed to finish the first two races.

So 2011's FATC report says that Barrichello finished higher than Maldonado twice as often as the other way round, Barrichello's lower finishes were of a higher calibre (8.5pt to 5.75pt), Barrichello finished more often (84.2% to 68.4%), Barrichello never failed to finish for any reason other than mechanical (0% to 33.3%).

You can tack on the fact that, in the real championship, Barrichello had twice as many points finishes (2 to 1) for four times as many points (4pt to 1pt) and twice the efficiency (2pt to 1pt) if you like. The summary is the same either way - Barrichello outclassed his teammate in 2011.

 

[homeforsummer]

this is the worst driver lineup talent wise in Williams history period.

I'm not sure that's a sign of Maldonado and Senna being untalented, so much as a sign that Williams have generally had some pretty good driver lineups in the past, and their current two aren't quite as experienced as some of their older lineups.

After all, Williams has hired Senna, Prost and Mansell in the past - three of the best drivers the sport has seen - Villeneuve, who was an Indycar champ, Hill, who scored some pretty good results, and other greats like Piquet and Rosberg over the years too. That's quite a lot to live up to, and one that few other teams - perhaps only Ferrari and McLaren - have come anywhere near matching, talent-wise.

Maldonado - despite being a cretin - has, after all, had a win so far this season, and Senna has had some flashes of excellent driving, interspersed with bad luck.

 

[Dotini]

Maldonado and Perez have provided both great entertainment and a re-telling of the old cautionary tale of the young bulls who lock horns in playful combat. At least Jenson will be grateful they took each other out...this time.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[rustyMercedes]

I'm not sure that's a sign of Maldonado and Senna being untalented, so much as a sign that Williams have generally had some pretty good driver lineups in the past, and their current two aren't quite as experienced as some of their older lineups.

Maldonado - despite being a cretin - has, after all, had a win so far this season, and Senna has had some flashes of excellent driving, interspersed with bad luck.

this is what I mean, Williams are a top team and this is their best car in years but because of their financial situation they are stuck with two drivers who do not have the talent to otherwise be at a team like Williams without their money.

Look at Williams' history, from their second season they had Alan Jones who won a World Championship with them, then it is nothing but great grand prix and world championship winning drivers until BMW leaves in the mid 2000s. Then they have a financial meltdown basically whereas they always had the money from sponsors and often factory backing like from Honda and Renault and obviously BMW.

Now they do not have those luxuries so they must rely on pay drivers for their development money which has worked for their car but they are left with Maldonado who is severely lacking in racecraft and brains and Bruno who is a nice guy but does not seem to have the pace.

Like I said initially I am a Williams fan for over two decades and I have cheered for these drivers throughout the season and there were tears in my eyes when Maldonado won in Spain. I hope that Bruno will continue to improve but Maldonado is simply a menace and needs to be replaced, race win or not.

 

[PeterJB]

Williams have been pretty destructive in the last few years. They have one driver who crashes on his own accord, and one who crashes into other drivers. I also remember during the Rosberg/Nakajima days that many front wings were lost, and they both had their fair share of shunts.

 

[Peasantslayer]

this is what I mean, Williams are a top team and this is their best car in years but because of their financial situation they are stuck with two drivers who do not have the talent to otherwise be at a team like Williams without their money.

Look at Williams' history, from their second season they had Alan Jones who won a World Championship with them, then it is nothing but great grand prix and world championship winning drivers until BMW leaves in the mid 2000s. Then they have a financial meltdown basically whereas they always had the money from sponsors and often factory backing like from Honda and Renault and obviously BMW.

Now they do not have those luxuries so they must rely on pay drivers for their development money which has worked for their car but they are left with Maldonado who is severely lacking in racecraft and brains and Bruno who is a nice guy but does not seem to have the pace.

Like I said initially I am a Williams fan for over two decades and I have cheered for these drivers throughout the season and there were tears in my eyes when Maldonado won in Spain. I hope that Bruno will continue to improve but Maldonado is simply a menace and needs to be replaced, race win or not.

I think that unless Maldonado kills someone due to dangerous driving then he will be in F1 for as long as he has the money backing him up. It's nice to see Williams doing well though.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Ok, so bear with me for a while... Pet hates and loves aside, see if this makes any sense.

I think Senna was hoping to buy a decent seat and get a decent car and position for F1. With Maldonado in it, a lot more money means his opinions and preferences mean more. I think he feels he is "wasting money" and getting a car that's been developed to #1 (Maldonado) liking and not his, and thus ends up fighting his frustration and a "hostile" car.

That is why you always see Senna with a closed face or silent somewhere contemplating something (when he's not racing/crashing). He is not comfortable, and he is not sure of his future in or outside of Williams. Pastor's (remarkable but also rather unique win) only made it worst. "No one" cares Maldonado only scored points twice this year while he did it 5 times, cause Pastor won a race.

And we all know even the best driver will struggle against a car that is not developed to his liking, and there is so much you can do with the setup. Senna is just not having things go his way, and worst he seams to lack the ability to (what do I know, maybe it's just not possible in modern F1 to) adapt to a car that doesn't suit him.

An example from a world where adapting is much more important: MotoGP. You're plain dumb if you think Rossi has lost it now, and that it's not just a case of not adapting to that Ducati (unless it rains and then he makes the difference).

So to summarize:
- No, Senna is not "the second coming", but he is not as bad as some people keep trying to make him look.
- Maldonado has everything Williams has to offer at his disposal. He gets first dibs on new parts and upgrades, his opinion decides the path of the cars development. And 6 out of 9 races (or 7 if you consider crashing out of top 10 qualy in Canada), he throws it away.

Everyone is easily keen on saying Senna's performance is poor and Maldonado is not doing a bad job "after all". That's only cause a race win, that may very likely never repeat itself, is clouding your judgement. Or you hate Senna...

IMO if Senna had #1 spot in the team, he'd be fighting fairly and regularly with the front guys. He might not have won a race (he's not that lucky unfortunately), but he'd have double the points and podiums Pastor has.

 

[Ardius]

I don't think Senna thinks that way but I certainly agree he doesn't make his thoughts public and seems to beat himself up about it. I also think this plays into his driving because he is either far too conservative (and then slow) or making silly mistakes and crashing the car. To me this is a sign of a driver who lacks confidence in his own driving.
It seems odd to me that Senna who was usually on top of his HRT teammates and showed inconsistent speed against Petrov would suddenly lose all his pace. He's worked on his consistencey but now he's just slow.
Presumably the tyres don't really work for him either just as they don't for Button and Robserg.

Either way, unfortunately this is going to probably mark the end of his career unless he somehow lands a backmarker seat and performs some miracles. He gets a shot and ends up psyching himself out of performing.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Nice to see Webber win again.

 

[hornet_burnout]

That is it, isn't? He's not comfortable at all. He has proved his valor before but now...

 

[MagpieRacer]

Senna definitely looked quicker in the Lotus.

 

[PeterJB]

Senna's career has been quite unusual compared to other drivers. After Ayrton died it was 10 years before he did any racing, though how he was allowed to jump straight into single seaters after 10 years of nothing is beyond me.

 

[Robin]

Senna's career has been quite unusual compared to other drivers. After Ayrton died it was 10 years before he did any racing, though how he was allowed to jump straight into single seaters after 10 years of nothing is beyond me.

Famous name, I really don't have the time for inherited motorsport people.

 

[rustyMercedes]

That is it, isn't? He's not comfortable at all. He has proved his valor before but now...

I would say definitely from watching him on sky giving interviews his body language and demeanor always seem depressed, no more so than after Maldonado's win. I've never seen a Brazilian look so uncomfortable (I mean other than their goalkeepers).

anyway great win for Webber, season in so crazy and its just going to get better, and then we'll see what happens with Hamilton, Schumacher, and Webber in the off-season, a lot to look forward to.

 

[Ardius]

Senna's career has been quite unusual compared to other drivers. After Ayrton died it was 10 years before he did any racing, though how he was allowed to jump straight into single seaters after 10 years of nothing is beyond me.

Its kind of similar to Damon Hill's career though even Damon had a decent background of experience racing bikes...it also helps when you test drive the best car on the grid.
I do believe that like Damon, Bruno can have his moments (though those moments wouldn't be quite as amazing). But I don't think he's ever going to get anything like the same chances.

I think people expect too much, too quickly of him - himself included. But thats how F1 is these days, you've got to be on the pace within a season or you're out. You only have to look at the revolving door at Toro Rosso to see that.
He certainly isn't the worst F1 driver ever but its hard to really justify his seat. I'd rather see Buemi, Alguesuari or d'Ambrosio getting a decent career.

I can't imagine the pressure Bruno has in his head. People might think that being given an entire season by Williams would ease the pressure but instead its much more intense as expectations have risen and he knows he has no chance of keeping the seat.

 

[United6694]

Anyone else get the feeling that Lotus will look back on the season up to here and it will be a massive 'if only' I mean they have had the chances to do well but for some reason they don't.

(Also nice to see Massa looking good again)

 

[Alex p.]

 

[Bye Ya]

Finally able to watch this race today. What a year it has been. It's all been said in here I'm sure, just a fantastic race once again in 2012. Start of the race was just epic, and overall it just flew by for me. Obviously a great drive by Mark, and very happy to see Felipe Massa have a decent day at the office. Pit strategy kept this race very interesting from start to finish.

Pastor Maldonado, just...

 

[Grayfox]

[/URL]

Since when does Webber have a balloonicorn friend?

 

[gorsad]

That is it, isn't? He's not comfortable at all. He has proved his valor before but now...

When you put it that way, I guess that he is always uncomfortable and pretty silent most of the time.

 

[homeforsummer]

Its kind of similar to Damon Hill's career though even Damon had a decent background of experience racing bikes...it also helps when you test drive the best car on the grid.
I do believe that like Damon, Bruno can have his moments (though those moments wouldn't be quite as amazing). But I don't think he's ever going to get anything like the same chances.

And, to be fair on Damon, he did work his way up through all the usual channels. I think the only one he missed out was karting. Given that he started in cars some time in the mid eighties and only got a permanent, full-season F1 drive in 93, he wasn't fast-tracked like some of the young'uns today.

Also, though I'm happy to admit that Hill is by no means the quickest driver that's ever sat in an F1 car, he must have been pretty good. Anyone who can come within a hair's breadth of winning in an Arrows can't be too crap, and he was the only guy who got anywhere near Schumacher in 94/95. He was also out-racing Prost in several races in 93, but lost those wins through engine failure/tyre failure/team orders.

Have we seen the same skill from Bruno? Not so sure. But as has been suggested, I think he has more potential than his current performance is doing justice. Maybe if he builds up more confidence, we'll see what he's capable of.

I'd certainly not dismiss any second- or third-generation driver with a famous name simply because of their name. Whichever way or means they've got into whatever racing series they're in, they should be judged on their own merits rather than compared to their father/uncle/whatever.

 

[Ardius]

I don't think Senna is as good as D.Hill, I actually regard Damon quite highly, particularly in the 1993, 1997 and 1998 seasons. But I think the way that Bruno has "the name" and has come up with relatively less experience than his peers is quite similar. I think both put too much pressure on themselves and can completely lose all of their pace when they don't trust themselves.
Look at Damon when he was in average machinery with a lot less pressure, he was arguably driving far more consistently and beating his teammates. But when he lost his head (1995, 1999) he either made silly mistakes or lost all his speed entirely.

I don't there is an easy fix for Senna, he needs to get his head together and somehow find some speed. If he can't do that then he isn't going to be around much longer, simple as that.

 

[Mac K]

Finally able to watch this race today. What a year it has been. It's all been said in here I'm sure, just a fantastic race once again in 2012. Start of the race was just epic, and overall it just flew by for me. Obviously a great drive by Mark, and very happy to see Felipe Massa have a decent day at the office. Pit strategy kept this race very interesting from start to finish.

Pastor Maldonado, just...

Agreed, especially that last point..

 

[Bye Ya]

I cannot believe they only slapped him on the wrist again. Surely Williams will step in and do something internally at some point if he keeps racking up DNF's.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Nah, brings in too much cash.

Unless Bottas can bring in more that is..

 

[Imari]

To be fair though, it must be costing them a fortune rebuilding parts. At some point the money will cease to be worth it if he keeps breaking stuff.