2013 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix

[Gravitron]

It's not OK, and you need to quit. The fact you haven't got an answer yet means we're busy with more pressing matters. I will be dealing with it shortly.

 

[f40]

He did stay back...... and pitted when 3.4 sec behind. SV ranged up immediately and was inside the 2 secs before RG pitted.

Webber was at various points within DRS range of Grosjean.

The aero package and strategy were only going to work for MW, if he led into turn 1 lap 1.

The strategy was viable, from where he was. But he didn't pass Grosjean quickly enough.

SV was not going to have MW take this victory away from him, even if MW got past RG straight away.
SV clearly stated, "keep him away from me".... just after the first pits and Christian said..."you are racing Grosjean."

Vettel was referring to the lapped traffic (Perez, I believe).

 

[Inferno251]

Wow, look what's happened to this thread!

As much as I vouch for the Aussie drivers, and am a big Webber fan, I have to admit that Mark screwed up-it wasn't wise for him to go for a three-stop strategy (and from what is suggested, he switched from two to three mid-race, which is even more unwise). This is especially considering the fact that he would have to catch up and overtake twice over (which he was barely able to do). So Vettel won primarily as a result of Mark's blunder.

I'm starting to get really sick and tired of what this rivalry has done to watching and discussing F1.

Webber should not be expecting equal treatment or to be given a victory as some sort of 'farewell gift' - Massa knows he won't get anything like that from Ferrari and Webber should know better. Perhaps in Brazil or Austin, when both titles are secure, Webber might be offered the victory if he qualifies ahead of Golden Boy.

Exactly, he needs to earn his victory-he nearly had it yesterday, but stuffed up with the pitstop strategy. Straighten that out and he will have himself one (or a couple of) last win(s)

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I feel Mark can win Brazil, I'm dont think he can get India since that is like Vettel's second home next to Suzuka.

 

[DQuaN]

Exactly, he needs to earn his victory-he nearly had it yesterday, but stuffed up with the pitstop strategy.

The whole point of this discussion is that the strategy, and the sudden change, was the teams decision. Not his.

 

[JGreens]

firstly JGreens really does appear to know very little about motorsport and comes out with all sorts of rubbish.

Where's this imaginary motorsport exam then?

As for that Hamilton gif, Vettel should expect evidence to be presented that back up his claims of everyone else resting balls in pools...I think he got his answer crystal clear

 

[Seismica]

The whole point of this discussion is that the strategy, and the sudden change, was the teams decision. Not his.

Webber is always the first to call out the team on favouritism. Do you have any evidence to support that the pit change was wholly the team's decision, that Webber didn't make the call himself or complain about tyre wear? (I seem to remember him locking up badly into the final chicane before pitting at the end of the first stint) The interviews i've seen with Webber he seems disappointed in himself because of a strategy mistake. Had he suspected foul play he would have made this perfectly clear on the podium for all to see, because that's how he does things.

EDIT: I'm not attacking you, i'm just sceptical that's all. Vettel drove a great race, and it was refreshing to see him have to work for it rather than disappear after the second corner. I don't think this was foul play by any means.

 

[DQuaN]

I thought it was only Vettel locking up in the final chicane.

After the race Mark said he didn't know why the team switched him to a 3 stop and he questioned it at the time. That sounds to me like it was wholly the teams decision.

 

[Wardez]

Check this story out on the Daniel Ricciardo's recent race in Suzuka. He was handed a drive-through penalty for supposedly gaining an off-track advantage in executing an overtake:

http://www1.skysports.com/f1/news/1...oved-big-penalty-and-hits-out-over-team-radio

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/10/13/ricciardo-disputes-reason-for-drive-through-penalty/

Going wide at 130R is definitely slower!

I'm of the opinion that Daniel really didn't deserve the drive-through and the stewards in Suzuka are clearly out of touch when it comes to overtaking on that particular piece of tracks

http://www.fia.com/news/2013-japanese-grand-prix-preview

I mean, just LOOK at them:

Pirro should know better, but I don't think he put together just how sensitive these cars are when they hit the turf and the basic geometry that's involved, which really cancels out any accusations of carrying more momentum. Does it not make sense? The turn is FLAT OUT, bringing up momentum would make sense if this was a hairpin, but not ****ing 130R. JEEZ

Ok... it's alright, I feel better now, thanks for reading, looking forward to hearing what you guys think.

Here's a gif of the incident:

 

[MrWednesday]

What Ricciardo did would gotten him a shortcut penalty in GT5. You can definitely carry more speed through the turn if you go wide like Ricciardo did, but I'm not sure if he was able to carry as much speed on the short straight up to the chicane or if he had to slow to get back to the track.

Actually, I'm curious to try hot-lapping that turn in GT5 in one of the Ferrari cars and see if I can get a faster lap running wide.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

Regardless of if it's a faster lap or not, if he had stayed within the white lines (on the track) he would not have been able to complete that overtake, because he would have had to brake/let off and the other driver would not have. Therefore, he gained an advantage by leaving the track.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

looking forward to hearing what you guys think.

Here's a gif of the incident:

They should put a gravel trap in there and see which of the two cars gets to the chicane first.

 

[Wardez]

Really looking forward to seeing what you find, not that GT5's a great sim or anything.

But besides that, he was already passed Di Resta before turning in! It's not like he divebombed Di Resta, he was on the outside!

Sorry, not directing that toward you, lol. FIA

 

[Wardez]

Regardless of if it's a faster lap or not, if he had stayed within the white lines (on the track) he would not have been able to complete that overtake, because he would have had to brake/let off and the other driver would not have. Therefore, he gained an advantage by leaving the track.

Yeah, now we're getting into hypotheticals, which is always tough. But the thing was, Di Resta was already pulling away because he knew what was going to happen next.

He didn't know Ricciardo was going to leave track, but even if Dan lifted in order to stay inside the boundaries, Di Resta would've had to leave room and at best they would've went into the braking zone for the chicane with Dan at an advantage.

 

[Spurgy 777]

What Ricciardo did would gotten him a shortcut penalty in GT5. You can definitely carry more speed through the turn if you go wide like Ricciardo did, but I'm not sure if he was able to carry as much speed on the short straight up to the chicane or if he had to slow to get back to the track. Actually, I'm curious to try hot-lapping that turn in GT5 in one of the Ferrari cars and see if I can get a faster lap running wide.

Do it in an F10 and I think you'll find it's not the best of ideas

I thought the penalty was unfair as well, he probably would have had the move done even if he judged the corner right. That and going off track on a 190mph corner is never going to help you pull off an overtake.

 

[aarror]

Penalty was totally fair IMO, if he did that a few years ago he would have been stuck in a gravel trap, and out of the race.

 

[ZEROX]

It's another 'WTF FIA?! moment'. Daniel clearly have passed Di resta prior to the 130R exercution. The penalty is a total ridiculous. This is why I love gravel trap more than tarmac run off.

Yes, they can do tarmac run off but place it far back near the barrier or wall. Use grass or gravel near the kerb. .-.

 

[Wilso]

There is no advantage on 130R going wide in an F1 car. The frame is so stiff that running over the ripple strip would lose precious speed, let alone he has to turn sharper to get back in line for the chicane.

As for Vettel and Webber, RBR is constantly pooling their resources for SV and they would have spent an insane amount of money on the car to make it near perfect. Just look at RBR in V8 Supercars. Their cars have a clear advantage to those of us that watch all the time.

 

[Imari]

I thought it was rough, but that was not a clean pass. Telling him to hand the place back would have been more reasonable.

I don't consider a pass made under braking to be complete until you come out the other end of the corner, even if you're ahead at turn in. Otherwise it'd be dead easy to just divebomb people and then claim that the pass was complete already. That particular corner doesn't have a braking zone, but the pass was made during corner approach and both drivers were still close enough that it compromised which lines they were able to take. Given that they were both still out of position, I'd say the pass wasn't complete.

Riccardo could have backed off and probably made the corner, then given Di Resta his rightful chance to have back at him coming into Casio. Riccardo would have almost certainly come out in front, and there would have been no problem. Instead he chose to keep his foot in it, and got really unlucky with the penalty. Sorry, but them's the breaks. He chose to roll the dice on going off track and it bit him in the backside.

I suspect he got made an example of. Drivers should make an effort to stay on track, not just run wide because there happens to be tarmac there and then keep going like nothing happened. If that was a gravel trap, you better believe he would have done anything possible to keep it on the track.

 

[Wardez]

Well that's looking at things with rose-tinted utopian master race glasses isn't it?

I totally get where you're coming from, I just think that it was an instance of good racing the stewards took a crap on. Clean passes are the norm and, yes, you should always aim for them, but racing is at its most exciting when it's balls to the wall, barely-made-it, type of stuff like this.

You're probably right in saying that they wanted to make an example of it though, just sucks, he did a great job. You're also right in saying that if there was a wall there, things would've been a lot different, of course, but he probably felt quite squirrely once he got into clean air under load making the pass and didn't know where Di Resta was on the way back.

I also wouldn't put it past Di Resta to hold back more than he had to. He knew the stewards would scrutinize the pass, and if he could get a free position by holding back a bit and making it look a little more like Dan ran away with an advantage, he was gonna do that rather than fight. I could be totally stupid and wrong in saying that, so yeah, just saying.

Here's an example of a textbook pass there (besides Nico Hulk's excellent pass there in the same race):

 

[Imari]

I totally get where you're coming from, I just think that it was an instance of good racing the stewards took a crap on. Clean passes are the norm and, yes, you should always aim for them, but racing is at its most exciting when it's balls to the wall, barely-made-it, type of stuff like this.

I agree that it's not ideal in the chilling effect it possibly has on those sort of moves. It was a good move to have tried and he shouldn't be punished for having a go.

It should have been a hand-back-the-position rather than a drive through. Realistically, the team should probably have seen some sort of penalty coming and ordered the hand back as a preventative measure. If they leave it to the stewards there's always the chance that they're going to get it wrong, and Sod's Law means it's not going to be in the team's favour.

I will say that I would like to see the stewards being more like referees in other sports, making rulings more or less on the spot rather than far too long after the event. I think you can get much more reasonable rulings if they're delivered in a timely manner.

But something needed to happen, that wasn't a legitimate pass any more than it would be legitimate to pass someone by running wide at Spoon and then getting a great angle to accelerate onto the straight. It's not so much about gaining an advantage as it is about avoiding a disadvantage that should exist but has been removed for safety reasons.

If it becomes routine for passes to be completed that way then we have to go back to gravel traps and grass to enforce track limits, which is less safe for the drivers and less interesting for the spectators in practise sessions when someone goes off and then is out for the entire hour.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'm with Imari here , not with you Wardez. There's no way such a pass is legitimate, he wasn't able to complete it without using "extra" terrain, not just the track.

And it isn't relevant that he was in front of diResta before going off, because he was only in front of diResta because he was carrying too much speed to make the corner within the track limits.

Totally justified penalty, Ricciardo and especially STR were very stupid by not giving the place back (Ricciardo) or instructing the driver to do it after it became apparent he wasn't going to do it on his own (Team).

 

[GTPorsche]

He only passed Di Resta because Di Resta got on the brakes so the two of them wouldn't possibly collide going into/through 130R.

The penalty is justified.

 

[otakukid96]

I can't really see how Ricciardo should have gotten a penalty for that. He was clearly passed di Resta he went off. I can see, however, that di Resta potentially could have gotten a penalty for forcing a driver off track, though that's sort of a long shot.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

I thought Ricciardo went off track to try and pass Sutil, not Di Resta? Penalty seems well justified, a bit surprised by Ricciardo's reaction to it though. If Grosjean got penalised for going ever so slightly off track for a very short period of time and on the limit to avoid contact, then Ricciardo getting a penalty looked a sure thing. Either he commits to stay on track and pass or goes off track and gives place back and tries again.

 

[Samus]

I also had no problem with the penalty, you can't finish an overtake by running off the track on the exit of the corner you're overtaking on, even if you were past at the apex. He was still completing the overtaking move and couldn't do so staying on track.

I can't really see how Ricciardo should have gotten a penalty for that. He was clearly passed di Resta he went off. I can see, however, that di Resta potentially could have gotten a penalty for forcing a driver off track, though that's sort of a long shot.

He didn't force him off in any way and as I said, the overtake wasn't done. An overtake is not complete at the apex or moment you're ahead of the other driver.

 

[F1 fan]

I can see, however, that di Resta potentially could have gotten a penalty for forcing a driver off track, though that's sort of a long shot.

So let me get this straight. Driver A wildly dives up the inside of driver B but has to run off the track as there isn't enough room. Driver B gets a penalty for "forcing" driver A off track despite the fact that there wasn't enough room in the first place? A car can't just disappear. The onus is on the attacking driver to ensure that the pass can be made cleanly and within the track limits. If they can't make the pass without immediately running off the track, it wasn't a clean pass in the first place.

I think Sergio Perez would love it if you were a steward. Every other driver would hate it.

 

[Bigbazz]

I find it strange how people could question the penalty, he went off track as a result of his pass on Di Resta. If it was a gravel trap or a wall he would have been out of the race as a result of the pass.

So if there was no tarmac run off he would not have been able to pass, he needed to go off the track for the pass to stick. It is plain as day to me, Grosjeans pass on Massa earlier in the season was much more worthy of discussion.

 

[SkengD]

I find it strange how people could question the penalty, he went off track as a result of his pass on Di Resta. If it was a gravel trap or a wall he would have been out of the race as a result of the pass.

So if there was no tarmac run off he would not have been able to pass, he needed to go off the track for the pass to stick. It is plain as day to me, Grosjeans pass on Massa earlier in the season was much more worthy of discussion.

Agreed

 

[Wardez]

I also had no problem with the penalty, you can't finish an overtake by running off the track on the exit of the corner you're overtaking on, even if you were past at the apex. He was still completing the overtaking move and couldn't do so staying on track.



He didn't force him off in any way and as I said, the overtake wasn't done. An overtake is not complete at the apex or moment you're ahead of the other driver.

It's not about the pass being "done" or not, it's about whether it was his corner. Corner rights. Once you "have" the turn, it's up to you to mess it up from where I'm seeing things.

I understand the majority's take on this, but at the same time, I know this sort of thing can't be objectified so I'm always looking for alternate angles of looking at these situations.

Once a guy has rights to a corner, it's done, it's a battle, not some sort of deal where positions need to be respected for the good of racing integrity