2013 Formula 1 Singtel Singapore Grand Prix

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Sorry for the OT, but Lotus just published a funny guide on how to avoid a penalty

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:lol:๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿ‘

Finally saw the recording. Epic drive from Vettel, epic pass by Kimi on Button and great fight from Alonso. Vettel after the safety car showed exactly what he'd do every race if he didn't have Rocky chattering at him to conserve the car. As for the pass, seemed like everyone but Button knew Kimi would go around the outside.

On the flip, rotten luck for Webber, and Di Resta most likely punted any chance of a better drive with what was surely an unforced error from a position of advantage.

As for the boos and the "it's just the car/Newey" crowd, the reactions during and post-race from Brundle and Lauda should suggest that the people who actually know what they're talking about are beginning to get a little impatient with the drunks in the cheap seats.
 
:lol: at the Lotus pic!

It was a great race, and you guys were right! I was blown away by the sounds, not recommended to go without earplugs when the cars are only 5m away.

It was great watching from our grandstand above the tunnel. I didn't hear any booing for Vettel, in fact there were quite some cheers when he went past. However, Raikkonen did get the most applause :D

A great race overall, made perfect at the end with Webber getting a lift. Glad to witness that! ๐Ÿ‘ Vettel was simply unbeatable though, absolutely controlling the race. A perfect drive by him, with a perfect car and team behind him too!
 
Here are a couple of explanations (just my opinion :dopey:) as to why Vettel isn't all that liked, at least when it comes to his attitude:

1. Screaming on the radio like a raging monkey when he would win a races and such (it doesn't really bother me much), and saying "yes! yes! yes!" etc. as if to reiterate his dominance.

This is where I get confused. EVERY driver has some kind of shout they perform on victory. (Kimi might be too cool thought)

2. The famous index finger he commonly shows after getting pole or winning a race, as if to remind everyone of his/teams superiority (whether that's what he means to portray or not). Also some of his body langauge/facial expressions might make him come off as a bit of a smart ass/sly guy (not trustworthy) at times....which as animals we will always instinctively judge.
Schumacher jump...he was advised by PR to have some sort of recognizable symbol. Blame those guys. I can't argue that his facial expressions clearly express his mood thought, he is what you would call a "Lausbub" (rascal/trickster euphemized) in German...

3. His on track tussels with Webber suggest he doesn't really have a whole lot of respect for the guy (although it seems to go both ways to some extent). Also after the incident in Malaysia with Webber, he totally contradicted himself when he tried to explain his actions, which meant he didn't really mean what he said.
I don't see why he has to treat him like his best friend? His pass on Webber was questionable, but without doubt a "clean pass" concerning race craft (morally not so much, but neither is team order). His respect for competitors is well in place. This is where I want to draw attention to the past legends. Senna would resort to blatantly driving people of track, for example ending Prost's and his race in turn 1 just to secure the WDC. He also clearly stated in interviews that he will go for the vanishing gap and force people to react to avoid the crash. I find that much more severe than anything Vettel does, yet Senna, Schumacher, Prost etc are the gods of formula 1 and Vettel gets booed. I'm not saying Vettel deserves the F1 legend status yet, but if he continues like this, he is on the best path to become one.

I can understand people having a displeasure for a driver, I have some as well, but I don't go around booing them after races. I respect their accomplishments even if I root against them. It is not the fact that people dislike Vettel, its how they openly go about displaying it. They tunnel vision on stuff that has been praised in the past and make negatives out of it. They act like best car + fast driver is a new concept to achieving victories and forget that someone still has to take the machine to the limits.

Now this wasn't a personal post against you, but my general annoyance with the anti-Vettel crowd.
 
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What's laughable is that people attribute far bigger role to Vettel in overall success than seems justified. Your words suggest that it's 50/50, and Vettel's behaviour is probably consistent with that too. I'd say that it's a team effort for about 80-90% if not more, the rest is up to Vettel. And relative to that, he's quite arrogant.

In general, I tend to give a lot less weight to one's success. A lot of the success is quite frequently dumb luck that the successful later portray as their genius decision etc. One has to prove him self in a whole range of different circumstances to show what he's made of.

Newey proved his worth on a number of occasions in different teams, with different drivers, and in different series. Vettel's success so far coincides with him driving Newey's car, so in my book Newey's contribution to those championships far outweigh Vettel's.

I'm open to re-evaluation of my judgement, but that would require either Vettel driving with another tier-one driver on equal footing, or Vettel driving for some other competitive team.
You're welcome to your own opinion, but I think you're playing a dangerous game.

Do you have a similar opinion about Mika Hakkinen? Hakkinen never had a "tier 1" teammate (Senna for 3 races and retired Mansell for 2 races aside) and won all of his races in Newey cars as well, yet people hold him in high regard. Hell, we could even extend this example to Jim Clark: no top driver teammates (in F1) and won all of his races for one team, the often dominant (yet fragile) Lotus. Yet, one of the greats, for some the greatest of all even. Of course, he achieved a lot outside of F1 (which, for better or worse, is not possible for modern F1 drivers) but that all would have meant little without his F1 success. Do you have the same questions of Clark that you have for Vettel?

Of course, you're right in many ways. Winning races and championships is a full team effort, you need a solid team, a fast car and some luck to win a championship. Senna never won championships without the fastest car, neither did Fangio. But to discount a 3-time (soon to be 4-time, probably) champion because of what car he drives and his personality (more so this) is a bit questionable.
I can understand people having a displeasure for a driver, I have some as well, but I don't go around booing them after races. I respect their accomplishments even if I root against them. It is not the fact that people dislike Vettel, its how they openly go about displaying it. They tunnel vision on stuff that has been praised in the past and make negatives out of it. They act like best car + fast driver is a new concept to achieving victories and forget that someone still has to take the machine to the limits.
Well said. Unfortunately ignorant disrespectful idiots are booing him, but that is their right, they can do that if that is what they want to do.
 
I think most of the hatred is from his arrogance which was proved in Malaysia and for that reason I don't blame them for booing.

However if they are booing because of his dominance (which I doubt) then that is pretty stupid.
 
For the record: The KERS system on Webber's car is NOT the same as Vettel so quit saying they have the same equipment.

Source required.
 
...So that means Webber and Vettel have the same equipment.
 
People are booing Vettel because there are at least 3 guys better than him,
but he has the luck to have a car miles better than everyone else.
 
You know how drivers were saying that the new turn 10 would take a second of the lap times, it has slashed it by a lot. Most tracks this year have been less than a second quicker than last years cars. However, it has cut 4 seconds off last years pole time and 2 seconds off the quickest pole time in 2008.
http://www.statsf1.com/en/circuit-singapour.aspx
 
GEORGE_GR33
People are booing

...because they aren't classy or left good taste at home.

Vettel because there are at least 3 guys better than him

Questionable. There's several others that won championships (Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Hamilton) but if they're so much better, why hadn't Red Bull sent Vettel packing in the first place?

After all, Williams has done so in the past (1992, 1996). You know, when they were good. Also, Ferrari did it at least once (2006), and it worked (although through some weird and uncanny luck).

but he has the luck to have a car miles better than everyone else.

Memo to other teams: Be faster and more consistent! Go deliver that to all of them, heck it might even help HRT.
 
Booing Vettel is probably a reaction to his and Red Bull's politics, especially this year (and also last year). Once they are challenged, they start whining about getting other cars out of their way (their own teammate or, hilariously, other team's), and that the tyres are soooo unfair. Interestingly, once they understood last year's tyre, they did not say a bad word about it anymore.

This year, they again did not build a car to what they knew would be even softer and less durable tyres, like Ferrari, Lotus and Force India did, but instead complained from day 1 of the new season that they could not drive as fast as they wanted. Well, guess what? That has always been the case, at least, if there wasn't a tyre war going on. E.g. Lauda won the championship in '84 mostly because he was smart on tyres, not because he was quicker than Prost. It were always relatively short phases that allowed drivers to push the whole race, e.g. when Bridgestone and Michelin were fighting for supremacy and building the fastest tyre that only had to last until the next refuelling stop.

By changing the tyre specs mid-year, the championship has basically been decided, because Red Bull was able to fall back to what they had understood last year. That fans don't particularly appreciate that, should be no surprise.

I do agree with previous posts that Vettel, despite his coming 4th title, has yet to prove he can outperform the likes of Alonso, Hamilton or Rรคikkรถnen when he's not sitting in the best car. His rivals have shown they can produce surprising results in sometimes wildly inferior cars, but to Vettel's credit, he did not yet have to, so you can't hold that against him. Personally, I think he's a very quick hotlapper, but lacks the overtaking skills of some of his fellow drivers. Once he's in traffic, he has not shown anything in the past that makes him stick out in that regard. But this is just my personal opinion.
 
Do you have a similar opinion about Mika Hakkinen?
Do you have the same questions of Clark that you have for Vettel?
Attitude of these guys was different. And I don't evaluate drivers on their wins. I think most F1 drivers that made it there not due to huge sponsorships, could be within a few tenths of each other in equal equipment/enironment. I evaluate them by their racecraft and off-track behaviour. In this sense I'm not a fan of a lot of the past winning drivers.

I have no problem with Vettel winning, any driver in his position would be insane not to. I have a problem with his attitude where the success he was given made him feel entitled to these wins.

It's not unique to Vettel, most people who get successful tend to discount the role of luck/chance and overestimate themselves. But it doesn't get less annoying in F1 than in other sides of life.

His rivals have shown they can produce surprising results in sometimes wildly inferior cars, but to Vettel's credit, he did not yet have to, so you can't hold that against him. Personally, I think he's a very quick hotlapper, but lacks the overtaking skills of some of his fellow drivers. Once he's in traffic, he has not shown anything in the past that makes him stick out in that regard. But this is just my personal opinion.
I don't like Vettel, but I also don't like unfair critique of him. He's had enough 'surprising' results back with TR, and him being 'hotlapper' is a feature. The car is very sensitive to clean air, and when he's not in front, he can't outrun others. Which is also why Mark isn't always second.
 
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They should start booing their favorite teams instead for being unable to take the fight to Red Bull, year after year...*
* Not to be taken seriously...
 
Why hadn't Red Bull sent Vettel packing in the first place?

After all, Williams has done so in the past (1992, 1996). You know, when they were good. Also, Ferrari did it at least once (2006), and it worked (although through some weird and uncanny luck).

Because Vettel keeps winning as he has the best package? They wouldn't get rid of him if he keeps winning. There wouldn't be much point swapping him for anyone else or bring someone else to partner him and challenge his 'ownership' of the team.

Mansell left Williams after '92 as Prost was joining the team for '93 and Nigel wanted to be the outright No. 1 driver, with Prost joining, that wouldn't be the case so he left on his own terms. Whereas '96 you're right. Williams got rid of Damon to bring in Frentzen. Mistake there me thinks.
As for Ferrari it was 50-50. Schumacher decided to retire but only as he was pressured by Ferrari to make a decision on '07.
 
Sorry for another OT, but this one is related to the Alonso/Webber reprimands (and Web getting a 10 slots grid penalty)


Watch Piquet, Arnoux, Johansson and Alliot. What's this? A 30 slot grid penalty? LOL

 
A 30 slot grid penalty? LOL

What gets me is that these willingly drivers risk life and limb; they get to be final arbiters of their bodies (mechanical mayhem notwithstanding). But the FIA has to create some namby-pamby rules in case one of them ever goes ape and throws his helmet at another running car/driver, a la Sprint Cup.

Twenty years ago, we'd laugh off incidents like this, as it was all in good fun. Somewhere down the line, Senna intentionally crashing into Prost changed everything. On the other hand, the witch hunt and kangaroo court which blamed Riccardo Patrese for Ronnie Peterson's fatal accident took years until the evidence was available for his exoneration.

'tis not a perfect sport, but pointless stuff like this could conceivably be ignored if no other driver had any issue with it.
 
That's what happen when you use a Ferrari as a Taxi.
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What's the definition of "ended" here? Not making it to the line? I'd rather finish half my races in 1st place than finish all of my races outside the points because of failures. Just because Mark makes it to the finish line doesn't mean his race hasn't ended.

What does it mean? Vettel still manages to finish in the points with half working transmissions and failed KERS and we've seen Webber do it too, just because Vettel has done it more often, clearly shows he has taken further steps to ensure a better finish (e.g. Qualifying or Tire Strategy). You're knee jerk reaction to another Vettel win and evidence to prove that Mark isn't shorthanded nearly as much as some of us like to think, even if you keep repeating rebuked ideas. Thus DNFs are a good source of reality between the two and also a reality that shows that even if team orders weren't given he'd still be sub-par to Vettel. I like Webber way more than Vettel and plan to follow him in WEC, but as far as F1 goes it's clear who is better.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that "elderly fan" Nicky Lauda?

He ain't getting his pic taken with Beckham. :lol: Pretty sure it's the other way around.

Thank you for lightening up the thread. These F1 discussions tend to get fairly grim at times.
 
Oh boy Lotus is still at it, albeit a little less funny than their first image:

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Dunno if they had this planned already and are just using the penalty as a running joke or if they created directly because of it and wanted to keep milking the joke.
 
Number of F1 GP - 249
Number of F1 wins - 20
Number of driver titles - 1
And if you remove Kimi...

Number of F1 GP - 59
Number of F1 wins - 0
Number of driver titles - 0

Not quite as impressive now...
 
Is there a way to watch this again? As my internet and TV were out last week.
 
BBC iPlayer have the highlights until tomorrow evening.
 
Do Sky still have it anywhere? I have Sky before you ask.
 
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