2013 UBS Chinese Grand Prix

[zippy_the_cat]

I'm more of an Alonso/Raikkonen fan at this point and so have no dog in the Vettel/Webber wars. My view of Malaysia is that Seb did what he felt necessary for the WDC and less obviously was trying to make a point to Horner & Newey that he's tired of being told to baby the car and his teammate. It's been obvious for a while, and not just in this context, that Vettel's in-car feel is telling him the engineers are being far too conservative in their assessment of how it can perform lights to flag. As for Webber, he's capable on his day (mostly at Monaco and Silverstone) of delivering an imperious drive, but otherwise he's just another guy. And a bit of a whinger to boot. Post-Turkey Horner's scared to death of letting his two drivers race but neither of them are on board with that program. The stick Seb gets for racecraft I see as mostly unjustified; c.f. the move he put on Alonso at Monza in 2011 or his drive up the field at Spa in 2012. If the team truly objected to his actions in Malaysia, a reserve driver would be in the car for the upcoming race; that Seb's there speaks volumes. If Marko's no-more-team-orders stick reflects reality, then Seb's view has carried the day and Webber based on his own actions and statements over the years has no basis to object. Given freedom to race, there's no doubt in my mind that Vettel's the faster of the two and will prevail more often than not.

The comparisons of Vettel to Senna are not off-base. Both were and are supreme one-lap specialists, and ruthless. But here's the thing: My view of Senna at the time was that he was a flaming a-hole, and I've never seen anything that's made me revise that opinion. Malaysia notwithstanding, Vettel has a ways to go before he quite achieves the same level of flaming. He's hasn't intentionally crashed out a competitor to win a title, for starters.

 

[Joie de vivre!]

No one ever calls Senna a backstabber though?

amm what? why would we even call senna a backstabber?

if one is told to turn the engine down, then he obviously is not racing at 100%. he could race at 100% but team decided not to.
they had 2 choices:
1.) 1st Webber 2nd Vettel with very used material
2.) 1st Werbber 2nd Vettel but with unused material

they decided for second option

are you really that incapable of understanding this?

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

amm what? why would we even call senna a backstabber?

if one is told to turn the engine down, then he obviously is not racing at 100%. he could race at 100% but team decided not to.
they had 2 choices:
1.) 1st Webber 2nd Vettel with very used material
2.) 1st Werbber 2nd Vettel but with unused material

they decided for second option

are you really that incapable of understanding this?

Even then, it's not backstabbing, Vettel is not racing for Webber, he's racing for himself first then for Red Bull because he need a team. He felt like he could get the win, he went for it, he's a race driver there's nothing wrong about it. You can question Red Bull autority on Vettel but honestly I'm not expecting any driver to stay behind another if he feel he can past he should try it. He's 3 time world champion and Webber has 0 world title. Maybe the difference in hunger is a bit of the explanation. I would have love to see Rosberg passing Hamilton or at least a cool battle between those two also.

I understand why there's team order, however I dont agree with them 90% of the times and I think it's good when driver say **** team order I'm doing what I think is the best for myself.

 

[Bram Turismo]

amm what? why would we even call senna a backstabber?

Maybe not a backstabber, but Senna wasn't all that pretty of a driver himself all the time.

 

[Joie de vivre!]

Maybe not a backstabber, but Senna wasn't all that pretty of a driver himself all the time.

but he was never in a situation when team orders to perserve materials, completely different era back then

but this thing with vettel is another scenario, which cannot be compared to the events in which senna and others were involved

 

[Samus]

Yada yada, it's been three weeks, aren't you guys bored of this discussion yet? I know it's just been "reignited" with Vettels comments and there isn't any on track action to talk about yet but really, dwelling on the politics is getting boring.

 

[MUSC4EVER]

Iam completely bored of this discussion!, Whats done is done..theres a race this weekend..

 

[Ardius]

Did Senna ever publicly apologise for something only to retract the apology weeks later?
I think thats the problem for me with Vettel, he needs to stick to his principles. Either regret it and apologise or stand by your actions and not apologise. Don't try to do both.

I generally prefer honest drivers, I'm not bothered if they're aggressive or not. Vettel has just proven he isn't very honest, even with himself.

I didn't have a problem with him ignoring team orders because it produced a great on track scrap. Nor would I be bothered if he did listen to team orders. It doesn't make him a better or worse driver though I generally prefer to see drivers race like everyone else.

 

[MLDoom]

Let's see what happens at China.

My vote is: Kimi again going for the win. Maybe Lewis and Nico will go head-to-head. Jenson and Perez fall back because they're both struggling in the car. Vettel will suffer mechanical failure putting him out mid-way through the race. We will see a surprise drive by Hulkenberg, piloting the Sauber to 4th place. Man, it's going to be epic. Yes I know it's all in my head, but it'll make for an exciting race.

[side note about team orders] A part of me wants to see racing flat-out for this race but we all answer to a higher authority. I understand why teams have orders. I say, drop the team orders - letting the drivers coming out with their gloves off and attack each other on track. But at this rate of "he said what and he didn't listen to the team" issues, we might as well let the gentleman's sport and prestige be degraded down to a NASCAR affair.

It's these items that are lowering the quality of the sport, but then again as of lately the sport has been very dry. So any news, good or bad, must be a positive for the sport.

 

[Centura]

Then for Barcelona Red Bull totally changed the car so it fits Vettel driving more.
What about Silverstone in 2011 then if Red Bull is so fair ?

Anyway this should all be in the Malaysia thread instead of here.

So? The point is that both had the exact same car. It's irrelevant if it suits one more than the other.

Red Bull brought two new front wings to Silverstone in 2011. One for Webber and one for Vettel. During practice, Vettel's broke through no fault of his own. They took Webber's and gave it to Vettel because he was the championship leader. I don't know if that's fair, but it's their team and their decision.

 

[Ardius]

One thing is for sure, Christian Horner is at an all-time low reputation wise because it appears from the outside that he's just a puppet with little actual say in how his race team operates. It regularly seems the case that Helmut Marko, Vettel and Webber say the opposite or contradict some of the statements that Horner comes out with.
It makes you wonder how credible he really is as a team principal. Even Stefano Domenicali seems a more credible team principal because he and his team's comments are on the same line. With Red Bull its a circus!

It also makes you wonder how this will affect the meetings and negotiations with the other teams. I wonder how the rest of the paddock view Christian Horner and this whole situation?

 

[Hun200kmh]

It also makes you wonder how this will affect the meetings and negotiations with the other teams. I wonder how the rest of the paddock view Christian Horner and this whole situation?

Horner should be worried but only if things go wrong for RBR this season. However, I'm more curious on how all this may (or may not) affect Sebastian Vettel's future in Formula 1. Will any top team want him if he becomes available? I bet you that Ferrari's lawyers would be asked to add 30+ pages of contractual obligations basically saying, in very fastidious and repetitive ways so no loophole remains:

"WHILE WORKING FOR THIS TEAM, YOU WILL DO WHAT THE TEAM TELLS YOU TO DO, YOU WILL NEVER DO ANYTHING DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY AGAINST WHAT HAS BEEN ORDERED, SPECIFICALLY OR IMPLICITLY, IN WHATEVER LANGUAGE INCLUDING LATIN OR EVEN QUENYA, BEING IRRELEVANT HOW THE MESSAGE IS GIVEN TO YOU, WRITTEN TO YOU, SMOKE-SIGNALED TO YOU, SHOWN ON A PIT BOARD OR EVEN THROUGH RADIO CHANNEL AND IN INCOMPREHENSIBLE ITALIANIZED ENGLISH"

etc etc ....

Truth is, would any top team hire him unless they made it abundantly clear that he is supposed to work for them first and foremost?

 

[Ardius]

Well Lotus were happy to bring on Kimi despite knowing full well that he's not the best for turning up nice and early to greet the media! They even said they would never hire him at one point.

So I think Vettel will certainly find employment with someone, if not the top teams, the midfield teams would bend over backwards for him.

It really depends on who else is available. The only real threats who are the same level as Vettel are Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen. They are the only drivers that a team would think twice before hiring Vettel if they were options.
But its hard to imagine any of the current younger drivers really building up enough of a reputation to match a 3xWDC.

If Vettel still delivers on track, he'll always be an option for the top teams. Its only if he does a Jacques Villenueve and makes some silly decisions that he'll find himself without a decent ride.

 

[Yukon]

Truth is, would any top team hire him unless they made it abundantly clear that he is supposed to work for them first and foremost?

Yes, they would. He's won three WDC and proves he's got the outright pace and mentality to win. If he became available, I don't see why anyone wouldn't put an offer in for him.

As for China, I'm looking forward to some Formula 1 action. Three weeks is like a mini mid-season break. I hope McLaren can sort their mechanical issues out and push for the lead, Jensen's one of my favourite drivers, so naturally I would like him to be up there trying to win.

 

[zippy_the_cat]

It also makes you wonder how this will affect the meetings and negotiations with the other teams. I wonder how the rest of the paddock view Christian Horner and this whole situation?

I suspect the rest of the paddock never really had all that high an opinion of Horner. But as has been noted above, he isn't working for the rest of the paddock. He only has to please his bosses. Long as the WCCs keep coming in, the bosses will be happy.

As for Senna apologies, he was plenty two-faced about Suzuka 1990. That's pretty well-documented.

 

[Wardez]

going for a gap while your teammate turns down the engine it's not racing, it's backstabbing. i have zero respect for this infantile saying mark didn't deserve to win.

i really do hope he shot himself in the leg. mark will give more than 100% just to destroy his chance of winning this years title, he has nothing to lose, his contract ends this year

Yes it is. Driving to the finish in order to conserve the cars on the other hand is not racing.

What Vettel did is indefensible.

amm what? why would we even call senna a backstabber?

if one is told to turn the engine down, then he obviously is not racing at 100%. he could race at 100% but team decided not to.
they had 2 choices:
1.) 1st Webber 2nd Vettel with very used material
2.) 1st Werbber 2nd Vettel but with unused material

they decided for second option

are you really that incapable of understanding this?

WOW!

Did you guys totally skimp over my post or are you purposely ignoring it since you have nothing to go against it with? Here it is again:

Well we're gonna go there, I'm gonna try to keep things concise because this is a thread for China after all.

I'm fully aware of how stupid Vettel's move was on Webber in Sepang this year. Not only did he pick the wrong DRS zone to pass on, but he was on fresh and warm Medium tires and Mark was on cold hard tires, and he had his engine turned down. Vettel's a horrible wheel-to-wheel racer compared to the rest of the field. I support Webber for his racecraft and ability to charge at the most amazing times, but his overall pace is slower and he just isn't a team player, as I said.

After Fuji in '07, when Vettel ran into him from behind during the pace lap, which ruined his good chance of claiming RBR's first win. I think Webber carried this grudge with him into the next year when Vettel came aboard RBR. With this grudge set, it grew into resentment after Vettel beat him squarely in '09.

Going into '10, Vettel was having some trouble getting to grips with the package and made some boneheaded mistakes, like in Spa with Jenson, and Turkey with Mark. Then Mark kept ahead of Vettel for the remainder of the season, being WDC favorite along with Alonso. Vettel was determined to help out Mark in anyway, even going as far as to say he'd pull over for him. Vettel was always a good sport, whether his past mistakes played into his complacency or not. But then Abu Dhabi happened and Vettel steals the crown.

After this, Mark probably killed off any motivation he had to help Vettel. Then the front wing fiasco happened in Silverstone. Webber was furious, during the race he was catching up to Vettel and they gave team orders to hold position since the race was closing up and they had a 2-3 going, but he went for it and buzzed Vettel hard, trying to beat him for second so he could feel better about himself.

In Abu Dhabi he consciously objected to doing any favors for Vettel: http://www.news.com.au/sport/motor-...pite-team-orders/story-fne8930l-1226509925984

http://sports.ndtv.com/formula-1/news/198809-mark-webber-to-shun-team-orders-and-go-for-win

In Brazil he was, rightfully, asked to help Vettel anyway he could, what does he do? Attempts to pass him on lap 30. During a super tense battle in traffic with bad conditions and Vettel in a car they have no idea how long will last.

http://live.autosport.com/commentary.php/id/547
Go to lap 30 in that commentary.

Webber isn't a victim at all. Some people try to show him as the poor kind guy who is oppressed by his team-mate. That's ********.

Webber did his bad deeds mostly without warning, the only time he tried giving fair warning was in Abu Dhabi last year, all other times, the actions were just as backstabbing as what Vettel did.

It doesn't matter how Vettel did it, he just did it and pulled it off. Had he crashed into him again, then I'd be agreeing with you fully.

=========================================

Did Senna ever publicly apologise for something only to retract the apology weeks later?
I think thats the problem for me with Vettel, he needs to stick to his principles. Either regret it and apologise or stand by your actions and not apologise. Don't try to do both.

I generally prefer honest drivers, I'm not bothered if they're aggressive or not. Vettel has just proven he isn't very honest, even with himself.

I didn't have a problem with him ignoring team orders because it produced a great on track scrap. Nor would I be bothered if he did listen to team orders. It doesn't make him a better or worse driver though I generally prefer to see drivers race like everyone else.

I'm right there with you, I respect honesty, and his reasons check out as for why he did what he did, so I really appreciate him dropping the BS from before.

But for their own weird reasons people were shocked at hearing about it. Like kids, like, " Vettel is bad and he should feel bad! OMG I can't believe he's trying to defend his actions what an evil bastard!"

Come on

haha, and look what else Vettel said!

"He shrugged off suggestions that he should have received a formal punishment from Red Bull.
'Maybe it is a little bit of a dreamland that you all live in, but what do you expect to happen?' said Vettel. 'Make a suggestion!' "

It sums up perfectly what my analysis of that situation was. I like this side of him, all I want is for him to grow a backbone and say what needs to be said. I'm sure even Mark's respecting that.

But I guess everyone wants our drivers to continue to be passive-robots for the sake of our feels.

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

Back on the GP, I hope we're gonna get a good race and that Lewis and Mclaren can do well which they should do since the mercedes engine is a plus here I think. I also hope that Grosjean will do a good race.

Does anyone have the GMT+1 schedule for the Free Practice, Qualification and Race by chance ? Also this is on BBC right ?

 

[Terronium-12]

I've already said my bits regarding the Malaysian GP, but what I will add is Vettel has single-handedly assured himself of never being assisted by Mark if the situation arises.

And heaven forbid if the two of them are racing for a position.

 

[Bram Turismo]

And heaven forbid if the two of them are racing for a position.

I'm looking forward to them meeting on the track for position. I hope Mark brings his best this year, should give some firework!

 

[Ardius]

I'm looking forward to them meeting on the track for position. I hope Mark brings his best this year, should give some firework!

I can only keep referring to this



Oh, and this :

 

[Wardez]

They're not the racing drivers we deserve, but the drivers we need.

 

[Terronium-12]

I'm looking forward to them meeting on the track for position. I hope Mark brings his best this year, should give some firework!

Oh, I'm looking forward to it as well but I know Horner won't be.

 

[Wardez]

Honestly I think Horner likes all the attention going to the team, he is the next Bernie after all.

 

[Terronium-12]

Man, they're really driving this rivalry home aren't they?

And I wonder if it's actually Vettel being "honest" or if it's Marko being "honest". Something to ponder, I think.

There's also the possibility he's just two-faced...

 

[Wardez]

Mercedes' was looking really strong in both practice sessions today, especially Nico.

Mark outdoing Vettel as well by a good margin, but we all know Seb likes to keep lots of fuel on on Fridays.

Everyone else is really mixed up, should be a very interesting qualifying.

Here's the results for both practices:

FP1

FP2

 

[magpie1997]

Webber faster than Vettel in both sessions I know that is completely irrelevant but I had to mention it

 

[Wardez]

All you have to do is go back and look at all practice sheets, then qualifying, and realize just how useless trying to gleem true pace is. And like I said, Vettel doesn't like opening up till Saturday.

 

[xStretch-]

but he was never in a situation when team orders to perserve materials, completely different era back then

but this thing with vettel is another scenario, which cannot be compared to the events in which senna and others were involved

You are so so wrong. Senna did break team orders many times. Why do you think Prost and Senna were as they were?

The reason I love Senna is because he would do things like breaking team orders to win. All he cared about was racing to the limit and racing to be 1#. The passion and love for racing is why he is so popular.

Seb has a less extreme but simular view on things, as Senna said "You must take the compromise to win, or else nothing. That means: you race or you do not."


-------------------------------------

On the note of FP today, it made me very late for work

 

[Samus]

As always the best (only) thing to take from FP are the times on the long runs but even then it's not entirely accurate because of the different fuel. But still today in FP2 Ferrari were looking very strong on pace, especially Massa once he got out of traffic. As usual for modern F1 though it's all going to come down to the T word, lot's of people were having heavy graining on the softs.

 

[BHRxRacer]

I'd like to see someone trying an overtake going through the marbles. From the looks of things, we'll see a track full of them halfway through.