2014 Belgian Grand Prix

[Azure Flare]

I've always thought it looked like an Uzi.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I've always thought it looked like seven kilometres of everything a racing circuit should be.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lotterer has been confirmed at Caterham, replacing Kobayashi, who will return to the seat for Monza.

 

[C-ZETA]

He deserves an F1 seat more than any other - but not at Caterham.

 

[Jimlaad43]

I've always thought it looked like Spa-Francorchamps' post 2007 layout.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

He deserves an F1 seat more than any other - but not at Caterham.

Where, then?

 

[C-ZETA]

Where, then?

Lotus could do with him, but they won't get rid of Maldonado because, "Money, dear!"

Really though, his ability warrants a place at one of the current top 6.

 

[TenEightyOne]

He deserves an F1 seat more than any other - but not at Caterham.

Lotus could do with him, but they won't get rid of Maldonado because, "Money, dear!"

Really though, his ability warrants a place at one of the current top 6.

And Lotus have a place? Because I'd like to drive for Ferrari this weekend, and I know Spa ever-so-well!

 

[Pupik]

Just wondering, why does F1 get its own thread for every Grand Prix and not just a general thread like the other motorsports get?

Honestly, they could, but for some reason the same folks want everything related to the other race series' in their own thread. A race like the Daytona 500, 24hrs of Le Mans, or the Indy 500 might generate more attention as separate threads, but the other races probably wouldn't be as interesting to other members. I can't say I'm a fan of that, to be honest...but that's how things are done. Jordan tried separate sub-fora for motorsports (for several years, in fact) but it didn't seem to be popular for anything other than the F1 sub-forum.

At this point, an active IndyCar or NASCAR thread (or really any other sporting event series) would have to cease and restart with new thread(s), but only after the season ends would that really make sense.

On the other hand, some people complain that we don't have a "generic" F1 thread, and there isn't really a reason to when you can create a thread on a specialized topic without penalty...after all, that's how threaded discussion on a forum is supposed to work.

So the tl;dr of it all is that I don't know why, but changing other threads midseason wouldn't be wise, unless a race itself garnered hundreds of responses for specifically controversial or unusual reasons.

 

[GTPorsche]

Caterham should also have their heavily updated car, so it'll be interesting to see if there's any improvement from them this weekend.

 

[noshog]

Caterham should also have their heavily updated car, so it'll be interesting to see if there's any improvement from them this weekend.

This is the problem though, they have an under performing rookie and a guy making his debut...how are they going to be able to tell ?
.....Unless it is some miracle update that finds a second without any driver input, but it's Caterham when have they ever had an update that noticeably changed their performance.

 

[GTPorsche]

I'm doubting they'll get anywhere...

 

[TenEightyOne]

This is the problem though, they have an under performing rookie and a guy making his debut...how are they going to be able to tell ?
.....Unless it is some miracle update that finds a second without any driver input, but it's Caterham when have they ever had an update that noticeably changed their performance.

He's driven F1 cars before and knows the track exceptionally, I mean exceptionally, well. In fairness to Kobayashi I think he scored points at Spa in 2011 but one could argue he's done nowhere near as many laps as Lotterer who's won there three times in an Audi R18, hardly a Formula Ford.

 

[noshog]

He's driven F1 cars before and knows the track exceptionally, I mean exceptionally, well. In fairness to Kobayashi I think he scored points at Spa in 2011 but one could argue he's done nowhere near as many laps as Lotterer who's won there three times in an Audi R18, hardly a Formula Ford.

I'm not doubting Lotterer's experience at Spa and is definitely going to be an advanage to him stepping into the car for the first time... And to be honest wouldn't be surprised if he was faster or at least match Ericsson on his debut in the car too.
My thinking was surely the best way to test updates was with their faster and more experienced driver in that car.

 

[TenEightyOne]

My thinking was surely the best way to test updates was with their faster and more experienced driver in that car.

Possibly so, but then we don't know how well the team respond to KK's feedback, or if they find it useful. Maybe a super-Spa-supercar racer will give better feedback from his additional knowledge of the track?

In fact, Joe Saward suggests that the team don't find Kobayashi's feedback that valuable at all... which makes this exactly the right time to change drivers.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

This is the problem though, they have an under performing rookie and a guy making his debut...how are they going to be able to tell ?
.....Unless it is some miracle update that finds a second without any driver input, but it's Caterham when have they ever had an update that noticeably changed their performance.

Well when has Caterham ever had a competent group in charge, you must remember this isn't Fernandes at the helm or anywhere near the group really anymore. It was due to his LDM like style (though not as crazy) of running a business rather than a team that true development never happened there.

 

[Kamdoon]

Any suggestions on where to watch the race online (live, and preferably free)? I'm in the US if it matters...

 

[mustafur]

He's driven F1 cars before and knows the track exceptionally, I mean exceptionally, well. In fairness to Kobayashi I think he scored points at Spa in 2011 but one could argue he's done nowhere near as many laps as Lotterer who's won there three times in an Audi R18, hardly a Formula Ford.

Kobayashi qualified on the front row for Spa in a Sauber the last time he did it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Some of the reactions I have seen to Lotterer replacing Kobayashi have been utterly hilarious. Apparently a three-time Le Mans winner with a wealth of experience of the circuit, racing in (potentially) changing conditions, and a decade of racing in Formula Nippon/Super Formula - a series that is faster and more technically-demanding than GP2, Formula Renault 3.5 and European Formula 3 - is an untalented pay driver turfing a genuine talent out of his rightful place in the sport.

Let's be brutally honest here: Kamui Kobayashi has never been great. There, I said it. He's a fan favourite, but hardly a podium contender, much less a race winner or championship material. The sport wasn't any poorer without him last year, and given Lotterer's resume, will actually be richer in his absence.

 

[mustafur]

Some of the reactions I have seen to Lotterer replacing Kobayashi have been utterly hilarious. Apparently a three-time Le Mans winner with a wealth of experience of the circuit, racing in (potentially) changing conditions, and a decade of racing in Formula Nippon/Super Formula - a series that is faster and more technically-demanding than GP2, Formula Renault 3.5 and European Formula 3 - is an untalented pay driver turfing a genuine talent out of his rightful place in the sport.

Let's be brutally honest here: Kamui Kobayashi has never been great. There, I said it. He's a fan favourite, but hardly a podium contender, much less a race winner or championship material. The sport wasn't any poorer without him last year, and given Lotterer's resume, will actually be richer in his absence.

Disagree, i have been following his career closely since he burst into the scene in 2009(being Japanese he was the first Asian driver that i felt could do something in F1, which got my attention), 2012 hid alot of things about how well he actually drove that season.

Perez that season managed to get podiums on the back of a tyre strategy that he was the only one of the grid to use and was often the result of him having more fresh tyres then Kob because he would make it to Q3 where perez would be out in Q2, comprimising his tyres in a season when Pirelli went at their most aggressive(8 different winners in first 8 races highlights my point).

when you take Monza and Malayasia(where kob had to retire due to gearbox issues) kobayashi had outscored him by over 3 times, and managed 4 front 2 row starts in a Sauber to Perez's 1 at Japan where Kob outqualified him anyway.

I have no doubt in my mind he is as good as Someone like Hulkenburg but the money suitation at Sauber basically killed his career, and forced him out a season which in F1 is nearly impossible to comeback from unless you had won races before(but since kob was never in a car able to do that he is where he is).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Kobayashi qualified on the front row for Spa in a Sauber the last time he did it.

Which was somewhat of a fluke on the tyres, as I recall. Not undeserved - you'd got to be in-it-to-win-it, but eventually he finished the races thirteenth ahead of only the Caterhams, Marussias and a lone HRT. That was the year of Grosjean's Grande Jour Out in turn 1, so the chance for Kamui to capitalise big was there...

This is the problem though, they have an under performing rookie and a guy making his debut...how are they going to be able to tell ?

Not really a debut as such, is it? He's driven an F1 car before (with much less experience in massively powerful cars than he has now), he knows Spa like the back of his hand, he's local(ish) to the area (and think of the Kobayashi-effect at Suzuka, the main source of my big respect for KK in-the-moment), the more you look at it the more you think that at the very worst this move will leave Caterham in the same place as they would have been with Kobayashi.

I wonder if Lotterer's been in the simulator at all in the last week or so? Doubt it, Caterham are going Full Rookie, right?

I'm not doubting Lotterer's experience at Spa and is definitely going to be an advanage to him stepping into the car for the first time... And to be honest wouldn't be surprised if he was faster or at least match Ericsson on his debut in the car too.

His first time in that car, not his first time in an F1 car or in a car with a mahoosive engine and top speed. Most drivers new to F1 have to adjust to the speed everything happens, that's a bit of brain-conditiong that Lotterer's definitely been through. Just how it is. I doubt we're going to see another Channock Nissany.

I have no doubt in my mind he is as good as Someone like Hulkenburg but the money suitation at Sauber basically killed his career,

I partly agree but; Kobayashi hasn't always been consistent despite pulling some fantastic moves through his F1 career.

A driver's attractiveness to a team isn't just about money. If you have loads of money and the team's very poor then that's a priority.

Caterham are on the cusp of that, trying to improve but clearly not feeling that KK's feeback gives them that and Sauber felt it too. It's okay taking the money just to guarantee that you will have a car at every race... but with no chance of improving it but it's not a strategy for moving your way up the grid.

 

[Lizard]

Which was somewhat of a fluke on the tyres, as I recall. Not undeserved - you'd got to be in-it-to-win-it, but eventually he finished the races thirteenth ahead of only the Caterhams, Marussias and a lone HRT. That was the year of Grosjean's Grande Jour Out in turn 1, so the chance for Kamui to capitalise big was there...
.

If you remembered said turn one crash you would remember Kamui also got hit quite hard yet somehow continued. Didn't even get lapped.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you remembered said turn one crash you would remember Kamui also got hit quite hard yet somehow continued. Didn't even get lapped.

But the only cars behind him were HRT, Marussia and Caterham. And in 2012 it was pretty much a given that if you kept your nose reasonably clean in any other car you could finish ahead.


EDIT: Pah, I'd forgotten his sidepod. Grrr.

 

[mustafur]

But the only cars behind him were HRT, Marussia and Caterham. And in 2012 it was pretty much a given that if you kept your nose reasonably clean in any other car you could finish ahead.

I hate to say "last of the rest" because finishing anywhere at Spa is a hell of an achievement, but...

Yeah but with a massive hole in the sidepod he was just driving without a cause at that point, no doubt given who got taken out in that race had he survived a podium was a sure thing.

his performances where still consistently high as in the practise sessions for the same race he was topping them too.

 

[mustafur]

Which was somewhat of a fluke on the tyres, as I recall. Not undeserved - you'd got to be in-it-to-win-it, but eventually he finished the races thirteenth ahead of only the Caterhams, Marussias and a lone HRT. That was the year of Grosjean's Grande Jour Out in turn 1, so the chance for Kamui to capitalise big was there...



Not really a debut as such, is it? He's driven an F1 car before (with much less experience in massively powerful cars than he has now), he knows Spa like the back of his hand, he's local(ish) to the area (and think of the Kobayashi-effect at Suzuka, the main source of my big respect for KK in-the-moment), the more you look at it the more you think that at the very worst this move will leave Caterham in the same place as they would have been with Kobayashi.

I wonder if Lotterer's been in the simulator at all in the last week or so? Doubt it, Caterham are going Full Rookie, right?



His first time in that car, not his first time in an F1 car or in a car with a mahoosive engine and top speed. Most drivers new to F1 have to adjust to the speed everything happens, that's a bit of brain-conditiong that Lotterer's definitely been through. Just how it is. I doubt we're going to see another Channock Nissany.



I partly agree but; Kobayashi hasn't always been consistent despite pulling some fantastic moves through his F1 career.

A driver's attractiveness to a team isn't just about money. If you have loads of money and the team's very poor then that's a priority.

Caterham are on the cusp of that, trying to improve but clearly not feeling that KK's feeback gives them that and Sauber felt it too. It's okay taking the money just to guarantee that you will have a car at every race... but with no chance of improving it but it's not a strategy for moving your way up the grid.

Not saying your wrong or what not but i don't recall seeing Sauber say they sacked kobayashi because of feedback, im very certian it was due to Sauber hitting big financial issues late in the season and there only choice was Hulkenburg as he waa able to bring a little money through Dekra(who Sutil is also connected with, likely Dekras decision to have him replace Hulkenburg when he went to FI).

No doubt Caterham have probably the worst Personal on the grid regarding skill so driver Involvement in setup is more crucial though, but its a slippery slope when you start to blame that when your team is doing bad.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The problem is that you're focusing on what might have been in a single race, and Kobayashi has never shown any sign that he can match that performance, much less do it consistently.

I notice that you haven't extended Pastor Maldonado the same courtesy. I believe he was on the front row (if not, then certainly the second) for the 2012 Singapore Grand Prix, and demonstrated considerable pace throughout the weekend, but was let down by a gearbox fault.

Kobayashi is a fan favourite; I appreciate that. But he's simply not fast enough, and his popularity is no substitute for his lack of pace.

 

[mustafur]

The problem is that you're focusing on what might have been in a single race, and Kobayashi has never shown any sign that he can match that performance, much less do it consistently.

I notice that you haven't extended Pastor Maldonado the same courtesy. I believe he was on the front row (if not, then certainly the second) for the 2012 Singapore Grand Prix, and demonstrated considerable pace throughout the weekend, but was let down by a gearbox fault.

Kobayashi is a fan favourite; I appreciate that. But he's simply not fast enough, and his popularity is no substitute for his lack of pace.

mainly due to his race performance being his own fault, in the typical Maldonado fashion(he got a penalty for jump start and then a crash where he surprise surprise hit Glock and grid place penalty for next race).

I do admit that pastor has Pace(his Qualifying performances against his team mates pre Grosjean shows he has speed, but his inconsistencies are directly his fault where Kobayashi's are mostly reliability and incidents that are not his fault.

the fact he is an aggressive driver and gets involved in incidents that 95% are not his fault or are unavoidable gives him the stereotypical over aggressive crash prone Japanese Driver Vibe, when he doesn't deserve it.

 

[noshog]

Some of the reactions I have seen to Lotterer replacing Kobayashi have been utterly hilarious. Apparently a three-time Le Mans winner with a wealth of experience of the circuit, racing in (potentially) changing conditions, and a decade of racing in Formula Nippon/Super Formula - a series that is faster and more technically-demanding than GP2, Formula Renault 3.5 and European Formula 3 - is an untalented pay driver turfing a genuine talent out of his rightful place in the sport.

Let's be brutally honest here: Kamui Kobayashi has never been great. There, I said it. He's a fan favourite, but hardly a podium contender, much less a race winner or championship material. The sport wasn't any poorer without him last year, and given Lotterer's resume, will actually be richer in his absence.

Well I have never said that Lotterer is an untalented pay driver, nor have I seen anyone post anything like that in any of the threads (on GTP) discussing it. Also would be surprised to see anyone say a three time Le Man is untalented ???
And disagree that Kamui couldn't be at least a podium contender given good enough equipment, but I'll explain why below.

The problem is that you're focusing on what might have been in a single race, and Kobayashi has never shown any sign that he can match that performance, much less do it consistently....

.....Kobayashi is a fan favourite; I appreciate that. But he's simply not fast enough, and his popularity is no substitute for his lack of pace.

While I'll agree that Kobayashi has to prove a bit of consistency, you could also argue he's hardly had the equipment to prove he can do it as well.
But I have to disagree with lack of pace bit, I look at it from a pretty simple point of view...Back at Sauber, Perez and Kobayashi were very evenly matched. Perez now ends up at FI with Hulkenberg who obviously is very highly rated, generally Perez and Hulkenberg's pace are actually very very similiar, this shows me that Kobayashi's pace probably is pretty good.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

While I'll agree that Kobayashi has to prove a bit of consistency, you could also argue he's hardly had the equipment to prove he can do it as well.
But I have to disagree with lack of pace bit, I look at it from a pretty simple point of view...Back at Sauber, Perez and Kobayashi were very evenly matched. Perez now ends up at FI with Hulkenberg who obviously is very highly rated, generally Perez and Hulkenberg's pace are actually very very similiar, this shows me that Kobayashi's pace probably is pretty good.

If Kobayashi really was as talented as you say he is, why hasn't a bigger team - one that is not reliant on pay drivers - offered him a seat?

 

[mustafur]

If Kobayashi really was as talented as you say he is, why hasn't a bigger team - one that is not reliant on pay drivers - offered him a seat?

becuase this is F1, not touring cars.

F1 is more about bringing Money then it has ever been, unless you are gifted with a car that can fully showcase your talent top Teams will just stick with either what they know or what they have raised them selves.

the amount of drivers shoved out of F1 not due to talent is quite alarming and im 100% many where possible champions.

look at Bruni from AF corse in WEC, he got a dog chance in hell of a drive at minardi where despite being insanely faster then the pay drivers he was teamed with had no chance at staying in F1 purely on money.