2014 Grand Prix du Canada

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With regards to the Massa/Perez accident, I believe a lot of these questionable moves from cars in front are the result of a false sense of security brought about by the improvements in safety and knowing that it is highly likely the following car is going to come off worse. It's a form of cowardice and Perez should get a much heavier penalty for that.

It's why I have a respect for motorcyclists on the road and not 4x4 drivers.
 
mirial
With regards to the Massa/Perez accident, I believe a lot of these questionable moves from cars in front are the result of a false sense of security brought about by the improvements in safety and knowing that it is highly likely the following car is going to come off worse. It's a form of cowardice...
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Brundle (a driver World Champion himself) once said that F1 drivers have two parts of their brain missing; the part that recognises danger and the part that takes the blame :D

It was always the same, I don't think the safety improvements are in a driver's (or rider's) mind when they're racing wheel-to-wheel. That's why normal people can't drive that fast, their sphincters cause banned ground-effect.
 
mirial
With regards to the Massa/Perez accident, I believe a lot of these questionable moves from cars in front are the result of a false sense of security brought about by the improvements in safety and knowing that it is highly likely the following car is going to come off worse. It's a form of cowardice and Perez should get a much heavier penalty for that.
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By that logic, Massa should also be penalised for not anticipating that Perez would move to defend his line and relying too much on his safety cell to protect him if he made a mistake or got hit.
 
Hun200kmh
What I wasn't aware but just read a while ago is that Rosberg did slow down in corners 1 and 2 so he could concede the time gained, without doing it at a place where Hamilton might've passed. .
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No, not really. Hamilton was well within DRS distance before the chicane and lost almost a second to Rosberg there which took him more than a lap to claw back.
 
Anghammarad
No, not really. Hamilton was well within DRS distance before the chicane and lost almost a second to Rosberg there which took him more than a lap to claw back.
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Quite right, Rosberg didn't give the time back as the commentators discussed during the next lap-or-so.

This has raised an interesting grey (or possibly silver) area. Rosberg got the normal warning (actually his final warning) from the Stewards/JoF but a lot of fans clearly feel that this wasn't enough given the particular circumstances. Unfortunately that's how rules go sometimes.
 
Clark
It's not like merging on a motorway, Massa didn't have time to read what Perez car was doing to avoid it. As the went round the slight right kink Perez stayed straight as opposed to hugging the right, Massa didn't expect that and didn't have time to react.
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You drive enough lower splits in iracing you know exactly what was gonna happen there:D

And considering the condition of Checo's car he probably couldve overtaken it on a compromised line, but again it seemed to me like he had Vettel in sights, and was ignoring Checo completely.

p.s. just so there is no misunderstanding I am not talking about penalties, i'm talking about Massa's decision as a driver.
 
Dhalism
You drive enough lower splits in iracing you know exactly what was gonna happen there:D
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Except that these are supposedly some of the best drivers in the world, not a bunch of noobs with credit cards.

There's always going to be an element of trusting the other driver in an overtake. Trusting them to control their car in the case of low split iRacing, and trusting them to recognise when a place is lost for better drivers.

Massa was well fast enough to be alongside Perez into the braking zone had nothing gone wrong. Perez would have had to make a massive dive to get anywhere near alongside Vettel. Realistically, Perez's chances of getting past Vettel were slim to none, and his chances of being attacked by Massa were high.

Massa would have assumed that Perez had read the situation correctly. If Perez was going to defend, he would have been on the defensive line earlier and more aggressively, because the move he made was never going to be adequate defense. Massa assumed that Perez was taking the racing line, which is a reasonable choice considering that if you can hold it around the outside you get the inside line on the next corner. Massa went inside, Perez made a move far, far too late.

It wasn't a big mistake, and had they just rubbed wheels he might have got a warning, or nothing at all. But in an F1 car a little mistake can have big consequences. It did this time, so he got a penalty. Them's the breaks. It only really becomes an issue if this happens repeatedly, and he's shown no real signs of being that guy lately.
 
Imari
Except that these are supposedly some of the best drivers in the world, not a bunch of noobs with credit cards.
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Absolutely utterly and completely right! But... the devil in me can't help but say... Taki Inoue who is regarded by many (including himself) as being the worst driver in F1 history. He was notably, one of the sport's first proper "pay drivers". He was also hit twice by the safety car, once in a car and once in person.

In other words... a fully carded noob :D

Sorry man, couldn't resist it!

EDIT: Gianni Lavaggi, how could I forget the mighty "Johnny Carwash"?
 
niky
We don't want to go down that road. It's a Formula for disaster.
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Presumably there's a difference between a Formula1 and a GP2, at least in terms of severity of accident. Having a GP2 accident is much messier normally. (Maybe that joke only works in Britain...)
 
@Anghammarad @TenEightyOne I wrote what I wrote after reading this in autosport:

autosport
Nico Rosberg wants rethink over F1 corner-cutting rulesBy Jonathan NobleMonday, June 9th 2014, 10:33 GMT

Nico Rosberg has called for a rethink over rules relating to corner-cutting in Formula 1 after his run across the last chicane in Canada was reviewed by the stewards.

The German faced an investigation after he locked up and decided to cut across the run-off area on lap 25 of the Canadian Grand Prix.

Although he subsequently slowed down at the first sequence of corners to ensure that he had not gained a 'lasting' advantage - as the rules now state - the matter still went to the stewards.

However, they decided that Rosberg had done nothing wrong and he escaped without sanction.

Speaking about the incident, and if he believed it to be a big matter, Rosberg said: "I didn't think anything of it.

"I went straight, and didn't get an advantage. I did initially, but I slowed down in Turn 1 and 2 as is the norm to do.

"So as long as I didn't gain an advantage [overall], then it is fine. And thankfully that is how they judged it."

Technical analysis: Mercedes' Canadian GP problems

Despite escaping a penalty, though, Rosberg thinks that the rules need to be clearer so that simple mistakes do not automatically get sent to the stewards for investigation.

"It is worth discussing, because it going to the stewards is a bit strange," he added.

"It is something that we all agreed among ourselves, and especially that the first time you can maybe get a warning, but you cannot do it three times in a row."
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The bolded part is where I get it that this isn't just Rosberg saying that he slowed down, whoever wrote that piece is also stating it as a fact
 
@Hun200kmh that's interesting, it's always the norm to slow down for turns 1 and 2 (otherwise you crash) so I wonder if the journalist has misrepresented his quote. The timing certainly disagrees with Rosberg and that article.

I don't know why he'd say it was "strange that it would go to the stewards", that's normal for EVERY course cut, then the stewards decide whether to look further (and here they did) and they then decide a penalty (which they did). In this case after a few laps they issued a final warning.

Autosport's journalistic quality can vary a bit and this article seems to be a good example of that, only in my opinion.
 
TenEightyOne
Brundle (a driver World Champion himself) once said that F1 drivers have two parts of their brain missing; the part that recognises danger and the part that takes the blame :D

It was always the same, I don't think the safety improvements are in a driver's (or rider's) mind when they're racing wheel-to-wheel. That's why normal people can't drive that fast, their sphincters cause banned ground-effect.
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👍 Though I do think the mentality is different with the safety improvements - I have an old video from 1984 where Lauda is explaining drivers basically have a rule of thumb, if you see the other guy braked later than you, you give way, otherwise both cars will probably go off the track. Today we often see cars pushing impossible lines/angles to try and stay side-by-side (rather than the faster option of conceding that corner and then counterattacking), or lots of borderline blocking that's called "defending my position", so either the racing slows down because it's so defensive, or we get spectacular crashes.

Also, Martin Brundle isn't a champion at least in F1, his best season was 1992 (6th)... he did win the 1990 24h of Le Mans though (EDIT: and the 1988 Sports Championship in the Silk Cut Jaguar). He does come up with some great quotes :)
 
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prisonermonkeys
By that logic, Massa should also be penalised for not anticipating that Perez would move to defend his line and relying too much on his safety cell to protect him if he made a mistake or got hit.
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What is a defensive move now would have been considered a block 25+ years ago. Even with all the safety improvements, it still isn't ethical and is unnecessarily dangerous in my opinion.....which brings us to the question of whether drivers should anticipate blocking or not. Even if they do, it's always a marginal situation to avoid a HORRIFIC crash.

Famine
What if the 4x4 drivers are also motorcyclists - they're just taking the 4x4 that day?
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Are you a Motorcycle / 4x4 owner?(!)

Maybe I should have said 4x4s then, but I made a generalisation as there are so many of the things on the UK roads it's hard to tell who really needs one for what it was designed for from those who don't. It's just they are likely to breed complacency because of the cosy feeling of safety they give to the owner - car owners that drive and text at the same time springs to mind too. I haven't seen any motorcyclists texting whilst on the move yet, have you?
 
FormulaKimball
Also, Martin Brundle isn't a champion at least in F1, his best season was 1992 (6th)... he did win the 1990 24h of Le Mans though. He does come up with some great quotes :)
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No, but I didn't say he was, he was always unlucky with teammates :D

He was World Sportscar champion though, and in that era that took balls of steel. He also came 1st and 2nd at an endurance race in Monza, as I recall ;)

profile_WEB_MB_at_Jarama,_Spain_1988_WSC_in_Jagaur.jpg
 
mirial
What is a defensive move now would have been considered a block 25+ years ago. Even with all the safety improvements, it still isn't ethical and is unnecessarily dangerous in my opinion.....which brings us to the question of whether drivers should anticipate blocking or not. Even if they do, it's always a marginal situation to avoid a HORRIFIC crash.


Are you a Motorcycle / 4x4 owner?(!)

Maybe I should have said 4x4s then, but I made a generalisation as there are so many of the things on the UK roads it's hard to tell who really needs one for what it was designed for from those who don't. It's just they are likely to breed complacency because of the cosy feeling of safety they give to the owner - car owners that drive and text at the same time springs to mind too. I haven't seen any motorcyclists texting whilst on the move yet, have you?
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I don't think there were any blocking rules 25+ years ago, or at the very least they were less strict than today. You seem to be making a massive issue out of something that happens very rarely, you would be very hard pressed to find cases of drivers cutting across others under braking to defend their position because it ends in crashes.

Also, yes, people feel safer in cars so may take bigger risks, although it could easily be argued that they wouldn't. But ignoring that, you seem to be forgetting that the majority of things you see people do in cars, eating, drinking, smoking, texting, reading the newspaper, etc, can't be done on a bike. I mean, you seriously think the main reason people don't text on a bike is because it's more dangerous? Texting with gloves and a helmet on is hard enough, let alone when you're trying to ride a motorbike with the wind constantly trying to blow your phone out of you hand.
 
TenEightyOne
No, but I didn't say he was, he was always unlucky with teammates :D

He was World Sportscar champion though, and in that era that took balls of steel. He also came 1st and 2nd at an endurance race in Monza, as I recall ;)

profile_WEB_MB_at_Jarama,_Spain_1988_WSC_in_Jagaur.jpg
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Thanks for the pic of the badass Jag :) Is that his '88 car that brought him the title? Yeah mad respect for anyone that raced Group C, late 80s and early 90s was an amazing era.

Love your avatar, "...goes without saying we can't turn him loose..."

I'm finally watching the entire Montreal GP today (I've been out of town)... just saw Rosberg's huge lockup and chicane cutting. Very surprised that exit wasn't considered gaining an advantage, it looked like he gunned it as soon as he was pointed at the gap in the kerb. I think if you go four wheels off due to a mistake, you should consider yourself under yellow flag rules - if telemetry shows you didn't sufficiently slow down through the runoff, a penalty should apply. No full throttle in runoff areas certainly. Half a second gained is pretty blatant IMO. No escape road should allow you to cut the race distance that easily - install a tire barrier slalom or cones or foam advertising boards, whatever.

As for the Perez/Massa crash... I think a penalty is a bit harsh considering Massa wasn't really next to Perez before the braking zone and that's an awkward corner to dive bomb someone even if they have brake issues. Massa had plenty of room on the left, too, so I kind of agree with Perez "why did he feel he had to scrape by me". It's not good to move in the braking zone of course but still, the overtaking car should make sure the move is clean and I think in this case Massa was still too far back. Glad they didn't collect Vettel...
 
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mirial
I haven't seen any motorcyclists texting whilst on the move yet, have you?
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Uhhh... every gosh-darn-it day?

Acc1009.jpg


And it's not just a third-world thing, either.

msq3428543.jpg


While the same "it takes more concentration to drive" argument has been used to support manuals over automatics, you'd have to be a horribly uncoordinated idiot not to be able to text and ride at the same time.

Just as you'd have to be a horribly idiotic idiot to actually do so, anyway... :lol:
 
Spurgy 777
I don't think there were any blocking rules 25+ years ago, or at the very least they were less strict than today. You seem to be making a massive issue out of something that happens very rarely, you would be very hard pressed to find cases of drivers cutting across others under braking to defend their position because it ends in crashes.



Also, yes, people feel safer in cars so may take bigger risks, although it could easily be argued that they wouldn't. But ignoring that, you seem to be forgetting that the majority of things you see people do in cars, eating, drinking, smoking, texting, reading the newspaper, etc, can't be done on a bike. I mean, you seriously think the main reason people don't text on a bike is because it's more dangerous? Texting with gloves and a helmet on is hard enough, let alone when you're trying to ride a motorbike with the wind constantly trying to blow your phone out of you hand.
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Take a look at the Chris Van der Drift accident at Brands. Maybe F1 drivers are a bit sharper, but this was a lucky man.

The point I'm making is that motorcyclists tend to be the bohemians on the road, and therefore enthusiasts where above all else, they are likely to pay more attention regardless of whether you can commit mind-distracting activities or not. The added danger is likely to maintain better concentration and instil good habits.

PS:- I'm not even a motorcyclist.
 
mirial
Take a look at the Chris Van der Drift accident at Brands. Maybe F1 drivers are a bit sharper, but this was a lucky man.
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Holy 🤬 I guess we can add a third quality to Formula racing drivers vs. normal people - they are missing the part of their brain that tells them to lift when the car in front closes the door! There was never a gap wide enough to go through even before the blocking move... And you know what happens when you're the car behind and your wheel touches the wheel of the car in front of you. WHEEEE I CAN FLY!
 
niky

msq3428543.jpg

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Anyone who fastens that much crap to their bike in an attempt to look "good" is the very definition of "3rd World", aren't they? Not wearing any proper safety gear either, I say let Evolution continue :D
 
niky
@TenEightyOne : Erik Estrada called. He would like words with you. :D

(showing my age...)
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Holy carp, is that a policeman? The bike's less impressive than I remember in CHiPs (we can moan about young'uns together :D ). The bike just looked like an overcustomised scooter, now you point it out it's obvious. D'uh. :)

Not my finest hour. But I've had a lot of not-those.

@FormulaKimball , that is indeed his championship car. Or the same model at least, I seem to remember he/his teammates broke a couple :)

I found "Working the Wheel", Brundle's book deep in my Motorsport archive (used to be a kitchen table). 1991 Monza he shared the winning car before being also required to share the second-place car. As a result he did indeed come 1st and 2nd :D
 
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