CodeRedR51
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2015 ADAC Zurich 24 Hours of Nurburgring
- Thread starter Tired Tyres
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This "no gt3" talk is silly. Then what? VLN Specials become the top class. Glicken' SG, LFA Code X, modified GT3 CUPs. They were only 5-10 seconds off the top guys. Maybe they limit teams to one PRO driver instead of telling the big manufacturers to stay home? Who knows. Dropping gt3 wont make the safety any better. Imo, ballasting the cars up and restricting their power some more wont work because it wont slow them forever. If the cars really are too fast, a better solution would be a total rethink with the parties involved.
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- Whodoyouthink
Uhhhh I thought the whole issue was upset aerodynamics?? Why not regulate downforce in some fashion? Too much rear wing was the main culprit in the Jann GT-R crash at Flugplatz, yes?
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My two cents on track safety having just come back from the race... To make the track safer for spectators would require all new security fencing as well as lots of new catch fences, around most of the circuit, both sides, and a lot more marshalls... Like 4 times more. What they did with the spectator area at flugplatz was basically irrelevant when there are countless other spots on the track where spectators could get injured, and even where there are suitable precautions there aren't enough marshalls to police the crowd... People were literally climbing the catch fences. People were totally ignoring the warning signs, there were some, basically walking up to the catch fence with their phones taking videos. I've been to quite a few tracks now, I've got a pretty good idea of what is safe and what isn't, even if I'm pretty gung-ho about it.... And what I saw trackside made me quite nervous.
Add into the mix the majority of spectators where drinking a lot too.
Slowing down the cars is probably the simplest option but even then I'd go as far as to say that spectator fatality at the Nürburgring is almost inevitable, without a mind boggling amount of work done trackside.
It is an awesome place, and an awesome race, personally I accept the level of risk, for me sanitizing the track and/or limiting the cars would detract from those feelings quite a bit. For people not prepared to take the risk, the GP track is perfectly suitable for spectating.
There is no easy answer, there will always be risks, how to best manage them I don't really know.
Add into the mix the majority of spectators where drinking a lot too.
Slowing down the cars is probably the simplest option but even then I'd go as far as to say that spectator fatality at the Nürburgring is almost inevitable, without a mind boggling amount of work done trackside.
It is an awesome place, and an awesome race, personally I accept the level of risk, for me sanitizing the track and/or limiting the cars would detract from those feelings quite a bit. For people not prepared to take the risk, the GP track is perfectly suitable for spectating.
There is no easy answer, there will always be risks, how to best manage them I don't really know.
Tired Tyres
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I took about 4000, filled my 32gb card and more! Need to go through them all and see if there any good ones! I won't post them all here obviously but If anyone has requests of specific cars I can see what I've got.
... And yes there's bound to be some long exposure stuff at night
Edit : also wrote my car off yesterday, so got a few things to sort out first.
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Tired Tyres
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Without the GT3 cars, I think the race would lose appeal to the extent that I wouldn't bother watching it anymore. This class currently attracts the majority of the best teams and drivers, and I doubt these teams would want to rearrange their approach if the GT3 class was to be excluded from the Nordschleife. After all, GT3 is doing very well around the world and nothing suggests that is about to change, so I cannot see how exclusion would be feasible for any involved party that currently capitalizes on this reality.
I'd say they should keep the race as it was before the tragic VLN accident. However, the layout of spectator areas should be revised and perhaps have stricter monitoring. This approach might provide the best preconditions for both the survival of spectators and the spectacle of the race itself.
I'd say they should keep the race as it was before the tragic VLN accident. However, the layout of spectator areas should be revised and perhaps have stricter monitoring. This approach might provide the best preconditions for both the survival of spectators and the spectacle of the race itself.
Tired Tyres
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The cars are too fast for the track.
The Nissan accident has been coming for a long time. We've seen cars get big air there for several years.
Driver safety as well as spectator safety is an issue.
The Nordschleife itself isn't a race track but a toll road means the organisers can't stop people from going where they want around the track because it is not their land.
Therefore you can only change the cars or you change the track. Getting rid of the fastest cars is the simplest fix possible.
The Nissan accident has been coming for a long time. We've seen cars get big air there for several years.
Driver safety as well as spectator safety is an issue.
The Nordschleife itself isn't a race track but a toll road means the organisers can't stop people from going where they want around the track because it is not their land.
Therefore you can only change the cars or you change the track. Getting rid of the fastest cars is the simplest fix possible.
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- Bonn
- GTAce
That's not true at all. It's only a toll road outside of racing events, they actually did forbid spectators to be there at the 24h.
Getting rid of GT3 would be one hell of a stupid move, because it would mean less manufacturer and sponsoring support, I also know tons of people who wouldn't care for the race anymore. The cars just need to be more restricted and the track is in desperate need for some safety measures.
Tired Tyres
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Really? A closed road is still a road. Not a race track. Not that it matters. They can forbid all they like. They can't stop anyone on land they do not own.
There are villages inside the Ring. How do you go about restricting their access to their own land?
There are villages inside the Ring. How do you go about restricting their access to their own land?
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Even if they owned it, enforcement is the issue. It's all very well and good moving the spectator area back and building another row of fencing at Flugplatz, it's what they had to do to be seen to be taking action. 50 yards up the track, on the inside, the only thing stopping someone sitting on the armco to spectate is a rusty old piece of mesh fencing that's been pushed down of cut through in a lot of places, and there's no-one around to stop you. I almost think that people just have to consider the Nordschleife as a rally stage, with similar safety measures - I just don't see it being feasible to bring the entire circuit up to an "enforceable" safe standard. No-one seems to complain much when all there is between a Rally car travelling on an unstable surface at 90mph, metres from spectators with no fencing at all - and spectators using a live track to walk between viewing points, the FIA even sanction it, I think that same leniency should be applied to the Nordschleife, simple because I don't think anything else is feasible. And again, just watch some IOM TT laps - is that not dramatically more unsafe for EVERYONE?
I know I'm just one race-fan, and can't speak for everyone, but simply put, the Nürburgring would not have got my money if the GT3 cars hadn't raced (well they would because I'd already bought the tickets when the fatality happened - but Eurotunnel wouldn't have got my money
) did I notice the fact that they were going slower through a couple of sections of the track? Not in the slightest. I'd be happy with the VLN changing the regs so the top classes were pegged back a little... but I still think another fatality is only a matter of time, and what do we do then? Motorsport is dangerous.Now I've started going through my photos I'll leave you with this...
and also this...
It's an awesome experience.
IMG_3694 by Matt Stokes, on Flickr
Nürburgring, N24 2015, Night time by Matt Stokes, on Flickr
IMG_3664 by Matt Stokes, on Flickr
IMG_3625 by Matt Stokes, on Flickr
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I haven't been to the Nordschleife but I once stood next to a fence alongside the Mulsanne straight during the 24 Hours of Le Mans - an unsafe area not meant for spectators. It was in a small village relatively far from the permanent Bugatti Circuit, and local police officers kindly asked our group to move away from the fence. I don't see why the same couldn't be done at the Nordschleife, whether it's officials or police "enforcing" safety precautions. Also, there are private properties right next to the Mulsanne straight, but this thankfully doesn't prevent LMPs from blasting right by.
By the way, there's only one village located directly next to the Nordschleife, and it's currently shielded by walls no one can see through.
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It runs through (more specifically over) Adenau, and you can see the track from the road whilst driving through, though for the most part, the circuit comes down to the town, and leaves the town so steeply there isn't much to see unless you are trackside. The village of Nürburg sits beside the end of the straight and it's bordered also by Hatzenbach, though the straight is mostly separated on both sides by public roads, and fences about 20ft apart.
This looks over Bridge, on the side of the circuit where you have to have a ticket/wristband to get to/camp at, there is fencing, on the other side, it's just an armco with a steep slope on the otherside....
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My point is that Adenau, which I referred to in my previous post, is the only town that has private homes close to the track. Sure, there may be private properties in other places too, but this is not an issue with the comparable circumstances at Le Mans.
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Even if they owned it, enforcement is the issue. It's all very well and good moving the spectator area back and building another row of fencing at Flugplatz, it's what they had to do to be seen to be taking action. 50 yards up the track, on the inside, the only thing stopping someone sitting on the armco to spectate is a rusty old piece of mesh fencing that's been pushed down of cut through in a lot of places, and there's no-one around to stop you. I almost think that people just have to consider the Nordschleife as a rally stage, with similar safety measures - I just don't see it being feasible to bring the entire circuit up to an "enforceable" safe standard. No-one seems to complain much when all there is between a Rally car travelling on an unstable surface at 90mph, metres from spectators with no fencing at all - and spectators using a live track to walk between viewing points, the FIA even sanction it, I think that same leniency should be applied to the Nordschleife, simple because I don't think anything else is feasible. And again, just watch some IOM TT laps - is that not dramatically more unsafe for EVERYONE?
I know I'm just one race-fan, and can't speak for everyone, but simply put, the Nürburgring would not have got my money if the GT3 cars hadn't raced (well they would because I'd already bought the tickets when the fatality happened - but Eurotunnel wouldn't have got my money
Now I've started going through my photos I'll leave you with this...
View attachment 369489
and also this...
It's an awesome experience.
Do you have more of those pictures made with bulb exposure? They look fantastic and I might consider using one of them as a wallpaper on my PC if I am allowed to.
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- psychoazubi
The close standing behind those fences has become quite normal on the Nordschleife and everyone knows what risk they take. Most of them are there every VLN/24h race for years and have already seen a big accident in their respective area. They know what they are into. And it already got better in the past. It is not possible to build fences around this track in a way to stop people going this close to the track due to its nature. Plus nobody could pay it. And it would destroy the myth of the track if they would restrict it much further, it would feel castrated. You've always been close to this track and that's the special part about it.
Or think of Eau Rouge. Do you think those small fences would stop a car from flying into the crowd when a car gets lifted like the GTR on the Nordschleife?
I don't want to say that it has to be like this on every track, I find the safety installments very very good on the modern tracks and they are very important. But they should not ruin a legendary track because of one tragic accident. People should watch each other (especially the drunk ones) to prevent unnecessary accidents.
It is only possible to minimize the risk of motorsport if you forbid it. And I don't think that is what we want.
When I said it got better in recent years, here is a photo during of the 2012 24h race in the right hander before the Karrusell in the formation lap:
Or think of Eau Rouge. Do you think those small fences would stop a car from flying into the crowd when a car gets lifted like the GTR on the Nordschleife?
I don't want to say that it has to be like this on every track, I find the safety installments very very good on the modern tracks and they are very important. But they should not ruin a legendary track because of one tragic accident. People should watch each other (especially the drunk ones) to prevent unnecessary accidents.
It is only possible to minimize the risk of motorsport if you forbid it. And I don't think that is what we want.
When I said it got better in recent years, here is a photo during of the 2012 24h race in the right hander before the Karrusell in the formation lap:
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Awesome, thank you!
